Dr. Roy Spencer went to Washington to give testimony today to the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. Here is his presentation. While not as technical as Lord Moncktons paper at APS (since it had to be simplified for a congressional hearing), it nonetheless says the same thing – climate sensitivity is overstated by models and not supported by observational data. – Anthony
Update: See the complete testimony on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzf6z-oHP8U
Testimony of Roy W. Spencer before the
Senate Environment and Public Works Committee on 22 July 2008
A printable PDF of this testimony can be found here
I would like to thank Senator Boxer and members of the Committee for allowing me to discuss my experiences as a NASA employee engaged in global warming research, as well as to provide my current views on the state of the science of global warming and climate change.
I have a PhD in Meteorology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and have been involved in global warming research for close to twenty years. I have numerous peer reviewed scientific articles dealing with the measurement and interpretation of climate variability and climate change. I am also the U.S. Science Team Leader for the AMSR-E instrument flying on NASA’s Aqua satellite.
1. White House Involvement in the Reporting of Agency Employees’ Work
On the subject of the Administration’s involvement in policy-relevant scientific work performed by government employees in the EPA, NASA, and other agencies, I can provide some perspective based upon my previous experiences as a NASA employee. For example, during the Clinton-Gore Administration I was told what I could and could not say during congressional testimony. Since it was well known that I am skeptical of the view that mankind’s greenhouse gas emissions are mostly responsible for global warming, I assumed that this advice was to help protect Vice President Gore’s agenda on the subject.
This did not particularly bother me, though, since I knew that as an employee of an Executive Branch agency my ultimate boss resided in the White House. To the extent that my work had policy relevance, it seemed entirely appropriate to me that the privilege of working for NASA included a responsibility to abide by direction given by my superiors.
But I eventually tired of the restrictions I had to abide by as a government employee, and in the fall of 2001 I resigned from NASA and accepted my current position as a Principal Research Scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. Despite my resignation from NASA, I continue to serve as Team Leader on the AMSR-E instrument flying on the NASA Aqua satellite, and maintain a good working relationship with other government researchers.
2. Global Warming Science: The Latest Research
Regarding the currently popular theory that mankind is responsible for global warming, I am very pleased to deliver good news from the front lines of climate change research. Our latest research results, which I am about to describe, could have an enormous impact on policy decisions regarding greenhouse gas emissions.
Despite decades of persistent uncertainty over how sensitive the climate system is to increasing concentrations of carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels, we now have new satellite evidence which strongly suggests that the climate system is much less sensitive than is claimed by the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).
Another way of saying this is that the real climate system appears to be dominated by “negative feedbacks” — instead of the “positive feedbacks” which are displayed by all twenty computerized climate models utilized by the IPCC. (Feedback parameters larger than 3.3 Watts per square meter per degree Kelvin (Wm-2K-1) indicate negative feedback, while feedback parameters smaller than 3.3 indicate positive feedback.)
If true, an insensitive climate system would mean that we have little to worry about in the way of manmade global warming and associated climate change. And, as we will see, it would also mean that the warming we have experienced in the last 100 years is mostly natural. Of course, if climate change is mostly natural then it is largely out of our control, and is likely to end — if it has not ended already, since satellite-measured global temperatures have not warmed for at least seven years now.
2.1 Theoretical evidence that climate sensitivity has been overestimated
The support for my claim of low climate sensitivity (net negative feedback) for our climate system is two-fold. First, we have a new research article1 in-press in the Journal of Climate which uses a simple climate model to show that previous estimates of the sensitivity of the climate system from satellite data were biased toward the high side by the neglect of natural cloud variability. It turns out that the failure to account for natural, chaotic cloud variability generated internal to the climate system will always lead to the illusion of a climate system which appears more sensitive than it really is.
Significantly, prior to its acceptance for publication, this paper was reviewed by two leading IPCC climate model experts – Piers Forster and Isaac Held– both of whom agreed that we have raised a legitimate issue. Piers Forster, an IPCC report lead author and a leading expert on the estimation of climate sensitivity, even admitted in his review of our paper that other climate modelers need to be made aware of this important issue.
To be fair, in a follow-up communication Piers Forster stated to me his belief that the net effect of the new understanding on climate sensitivity estimates would likely be small. But as we shall see, the latest evidence now suggests otherwise.
2.2 Observational evidence that climate sensitivity has been overestimated
The second line of evidence in support of an insensitive climate system comes from the satellite data themselves. While our work in-press established the existence of an observational bias in estimates of climate sensitivity, it did not address just how large that bias might be.
But in the last several weeks, we have stumbled upon clear and convincing observational evidence of particularly strong negative feedback (low climate sensitivity) from our latest and best satellite instruments. That evidence includes our development of two new methods for extracting the feedback signal from either observational or climate model data, a goal which has been called the “holy grail” of climate research.
The first method separates the true signature of feedback, wherein radiative flux variations are highly correlated to the temperature changes which cause them, from internally-generated radiative forcings, which are uncorrelated to the temperature variations which result from them. It is the latter signal which has been ignored in all previous studies, the neglect of which biases feedback diagnoses in the direction of positive feedback (high climate sensitivity).
Based upon global oceanic climate variations measured by a variety of NASA and NOAA satellites during the period 2000 through 2005 we have found a signature of climate sensitivity so low that it would reduce future global warming projections to below 1 deg. C by the year 2100. As can be seen in Fig. 1, that estimate from satellite data is much less sensitive (a larger diagnosed feedback) than even the least sensitive of the 20 climate models which the IPCC summarizes in its report. It is also consistent with our previously published analysis of feedbacks associated with tropical intraseasonal oscillations3.
Fig. 1. Frequency distributions of feedback parameters (regression slopes) computed from three-month low-pass filtered time series of temperature (from channel 5 of the AMSU instrument flying on the NOAA-15 satellite) and top-of-atmosphere radiative flux variations for 6 years of global oceanic satellite data measured by the CERES instrument flying on NASA’s Terra satellite; and from a 60 year integration of the NCAR-CCSM3.0 climate model forced by 1% per year CO2 increase. Peaks in the frequency distributions indicate the dominant feedback operating. This NCAR model is the least sensitive (greatest feedback parameter value) of all 20 IPCC models.
A second method for extracting the true feedback signal takes advantage of the fact that during natural climate variability, there are varying levels of internally-generated radiative forcings (which are uncorrelated to temperature), versus non-radiative forcings (which are highly correlated to temperature). If the feedbacks estimated for different periods of time involve different levels of correlation, then the “true” feedback can be estimated by extrapolating those results to 100% correlation. This can be seen in Fig. 2, which shows that even previously published4 estimates of positive feedback are, in reality, supportive of negative feedback (feedback parameters greater than 3.3 Wm-2K-1).
Fig. 2. Re-analysis of the satellite-based feedback parameter estimates of Forster and Gregory (2006) showing that they are consistent with negative feedback rather than positive feedback (low climate sensitivity rather than high climate sensitivity).
2.3 Why do climate models produce so much global warming?
The results just presented beg the following question: If the satellite data indicate an insensitive climate system, why do the climate models suggest just the opposite? I believe the answer is due to a misinterpretation of cloud behavior by climate modelers.
The cloud behaviors programmed into climate models (cloud “parameterizations”) are based upon researchers’ interpretation of cause and effect in the real climate system5. When cloud variations in the real climate system have been measured, it has been assumed that the cloud changes were the result of certain processes, which are ultimately tied to surface temperature changes. But since other, chaotic, internally generated mechanisms can also be the cause of cloud changes, the neglect of those processes leads to cloud parameterizations which are inherently biased toward high climate sensitivity.
The reason why the bias occurs only in the direction of high climate sensitivity is this: While surface warming could conceivably cause cloud changes which lead to either positive or negative cloud feedback, causation in the opposite direction (cloud changes causing surface warming) can only work in one direction, which then “looks like” positive feedback. For example, decreasing low cloud cover can only produce warming, not cooling, and when that process is observed in the real climate system and assumed to be a feedback, it will always suggest a positive feedback.
2.4 So, what has caused global warming over the last century?
One necessary result of low climate sensitivity is that the radiative forcing from greenhouse gas emissions in the last century is not nearly enough to explain the upward trend of 0.7 deg. C in the last 100 years. This raises the question of whether there are natural processes at work which have caused most of that warming.
On this issue, it can be shown with a simple climate model that small cloud fluctuations assumed to occur with two modes of natural climate variability — the El Nino/La Nina phenomenon (Southern Oscillation), and the Pacific Decadal Oscillation — can explain 70% of the warming trend since 1900, as well as the nature of that trend: warming until the 1940s, no warming until the 1970s, and resumed warming since then. These results are shown in Fig. 3.
Fig. 3. A simple climate model forced with cloud cover variations assumed to be proportional to a linear combination of the Southern Oscillation Index (SOI) and Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) index. The heat flux anomalies in (a), which then result in the modeled temperature response in (b), are assumed to be distributed over the top 27% of the global ocean (1,000 meters), and weak negative feedback has been assumed (4 W m-2 K-1).
While this is not necessarily being presented as the only explanation for most of the warming in the last century, it does illustrate that there are potential explanations for recent warming other that just manmade greenhouse gas emissions. Significantly, this is an issue on which the IPCC has remained almost entirely silent. There has been virtually no published work on the possible role of internal climate variations in the warming of the last century.
3. Policy Implications
Obviously, what I am claiming today is of great importance to the global warming debate and related policy decisions, and it will surely be controversial. These results are not totally unprecedented, though, as other recently published research6 has also led to the conclusion that the real climate system does not exhibit net positive feedback.
While it will take some time for the research community to digest this new information, it must be mentioned that new research contradicting the latest IPCC report is entirely consistent with the normal course of scientific progress. I predict that in the coming years, there will be a growing realization among the global warming research community that most of the climate change we have observed is natural, and that mankind’s role is relatively minor.
While other researchers need to further explore and validate my claims, I am heartened by the fact that my recent presentation of these results to an audience of approximately 40 weather and climate researchers at the University of Colorado in Boulder last week (on July 17, 2008 ) led to no substantial objections to either the data I presented, nor to my interpretation of those data.
And, curiously, despite its importance to climate modeling activities, no one from Dr. Kevin Trenberth’s facility, the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR), bothered to drive four miles down the road to attend my seminar, even though it was advertised at NCAR.
I hope that the Committee realizes that, if true, these new results mean that humanity will be largely spared the negative consequences of human-induced climate change. This would be good news that should be celebrated — not attacked and maligned.
And given that virtually no research into possible natural explanations for global warming has been performed, it is time for scientific objectivity and integrity to be restored to the field of global warming research. This Committee could, at a minimum, make a statement that encourages that goal.
REFERENCES
1. Spencer, R.W., and W.D. Braswell, 2008: Potential biases in cloud feedback diagnosis:
A simple model demonstration. J. Climate, in press.
2. Allen, M.R., and D.J. Frame, 2007: Call off the quest. Science, 318, 582.
3. Spencer, R.W., W. D. Braswell, J. R. Christy, and J. Hnilo, 2007: Cloud and radiation
budget changes associated with tropical intraseasonal oscillations. Geophys. Res.
Lett., 34, L15707, doi:10.1029/2007GL029698.
4. Forster, P. M., and J. M. Gregory, 2006: The climate sensitivity and its components
diagnosed from Earth Radiation Budget data. J. Climate, 19, 39-52.
5. Stephens, G. L., 2005: Clouds feedbacks in the climate system: A critical review. J.
Climate, 18, 237-273.
6. Schwartz, S. E., 2007: Heat capacity, time constant, and sensitivity of the Earth’s
climate system. J. Geophys. Res., 112, D24S05, doi:10.1029/2007JD008746.



Douglas: Could we say your proposition with which i agree 100%” should read “this is what causes climate” not climate change?. Isn’t climate inherently changing by definition?
Vincent: Not sure what you are saying. The IPCC seems to assume that climate would be unchanging unless forced by some external change in boundary conditions. I, on the other hand, have a hard time imagining that changes in cloud cover and ocean temperatures (which flow around) can ever reach an equilibrium and must always be modulating each other. Both are always moving and thus changing energy flows and it just doesn’t seem likely that the total energy in the system will remain invariant over time.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.
Joel Shore (12:12:48)
“Actually, in the cases that I am familiar with, peer review is done anonymously…at least anonymously to everyone but the editor…”
I am somewhat puzzled about this part. How Mokton and Spencer came to know exactly who the reviewers were. Of course, now a days no one really wants to review papers and the author has to supply names of potential reviewers (generally five), but most often the editor adds those names to the database and use other reviewers. The name of the reviewers are known only to the editor and his/her secretary. Editors generally discourage reviewers even from communicating with the author. So I really cannot figure out how they know exactly who the reviewers are.
John McLondon: In the case of Monckton, the answer is easy. It was not peer-reviewed at all. It was just looked over by Al Saperstein, one of the editors of the journal, who was mainly interested in improving the exposition. So, he made suggestions to Monckton is this regard.
I’m just a lurker here but it seems if AGW becomes any more apparent of a fraud then one of the many things it will take down with it is the ‘peer-review’ process. As it will become a joke not only to scientists but to all citizens who have had to listen to that mantra while trying to decipher the debate. In my understanding of the IPCC they already perverted the use of peer-review beyond repair and Oreskes did much damage to the reputation of the peer review process via her claims of consensus in her non-peer reviewed paper. As for Monckton, I think of him as more of a reporter on the science and thus easily dismissed by those who strongly want to. But I see him as much more qualified to speak on the issue than Al Gore who is held as an expert by the dopey press.
Bravo, Dr Spencer! And I see the seeds of a proper consensus on Real Real Climate Science emerging with Hoyt:
1. Cloud cover is varying over the oceans. Evidence (see Palle abstract below).
2. The cloud cover causes changes in ocean temperatures by modulating the amount of solar radiation being absorbed.
3. The changes in ocean temperatures cause much of the observed changes in temperature over land (see Compo abstract below).
4. Part of the changes in land temperatures are also caused by land use changes (Pielke, Sr.), urban heat islands (McKitrick and Michaels), and poor siting of thermometers (Watts).
to which many would want to add, I suspect:
5. (or 0.) The effects of solar magnetic flux on the lowering of GCR (galactic cosmic radiation) in the Earth’s vicinity, and the probable resultant decrease in cloud cover (Svensmark et al).
Any thoughts, again, on starting a Climate Science wiki where ordinary people can start to get the insight into Climate Science which they deserve if they are to make, and vote on, informed decisions? Wouldn’t this be another good way of bypassing those who have nailed their colours to the mast of the Titanic?
As for Monckton, I think of him as more of a reporter on the science and thus easily dismissed by those who strongly want to. But I see him as much more qualified to speak on the issue than Al Gore who is held as an expert by the dopey press.
Bear in mind he is a mathematician and an official reviewer of the IPCC (and is therefore a co-winner of their Nobel Beauty Prize). Most of his contribution consists of “sum checking”. It is because of his checking of sums that the IPCC drastically reduced its sea level rise projections. On those grounds alone he is clearly a qualified and vindicated player,
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Dr. Spencer, for having the balls
to go public honestly with truth!
I’m no scientist, but was very interesting in climate science and
started about 4 years ago with the help of some wellknown climate
scientists to learn about that whole complex of climate.
Starting up with GH theorie, I soon came to a point with a lot of
uncertainties and discrepancies I can’t explain.
Then I coincidentally found some interesting reports about
suncycles and ENSO from Dr. Theodor Landscheidt, which sounds
pretty promising.
By and by I perfected my knowledge with papers from Shaviv,
Svensmark, Solanki and many others, which all were targeting at
least on LT cloud condensation by solar activity and modulated GCR.
There were many laughs of AGW proponents happening to me with this,
but who laughs last, laughs best at the end.
Dr. Roy Spencer showed me, that I was not wrong at all, and my time
was well invested.
Thanks again, Dr. Roy Spencer, and if I may do here, special thanks
to Dr. met. Wolfgang Thuene, Paul Reiter, Dick Lindzen, Nir Shaviv,
Georg Beck, and many others guiding me on my way with word and deeds.
I hope my questions didn’t stress you too much 😉
And in memoriam to Dr. Landscheidt, who passed away in 2004, very special thanks for your fine work, that I was inspired by.
Joel Shore said at 19:46:40
“Yes, they are both arguing for low climate sensitivity. However, they are doing so with completely different arguments and, in fact, the arguments can’t really both be right.”
Your logic is false. Oh yes, they both can be right. Earth climate is a multivariable spatio-temporal system. The whole issue is debated by mapping of complex chaotic variables onto a single value called “global temperature”, which was designed for political appeal. There are myriad ways to map the variety of climatic variables into a single number. In fact, all these “theories” of sensitivity are no more than statistical curve fitting. The involved parameters (forcings and feedbacks) have no physical meaning, are immeasurable, and cannot constitute a system where any known law of physics would hold. Curve fitting to noisy experimental data can be done in many equally valid ways. Monckton and Spencer use slightly different angles, but arrived to the same result: IPCC theoretical projections and estimations are blown out of proportion with reality. The CO2-centric AGW theory is falling apart, and no friends from graduate school of physics could save it.
I was fortunate to meet Dr. Spencer a few months ago at a seminar in Salt Lake City and was impressed by his presentation, and I have followed his work with interest. It is unconscionable, but not unexpected, that a US Senator would so callously disregard a respected scientist. She was scribbling away instead of listening and her first comments were of ad hominem intent to refer to him in context with a popular and liberally reviled entertainer.
Mark Whitney
Sandy, Utah
I believe Monckton is certainly better qualified than Al Gore in this topic, Al Gore is a politician who found an opportunity in AGW. But when Monckton equates editorial review with peer-review in his strongly worded letter, in my opinion it diminishes his credibility.
As for Spencer, unfortunately I do not really trust him. It seems there is a stretch between his reviewed publications and his public opinions – in his unreviewed writings he seems to exaggerate the significance of his work in order to cast doubts on AGW. This particular one is not different, it seems to me. Here is the clue, when he said: “ To be fair, in a follow-up communication Piers Forster stated to me his belief that the net effect of the new understanding on climate sensitivity estimates would likely be small. But as we shall see, the latest evidence now suggests otherwise.” I believe the first part, which is the reviewer’s opinion; but I do not believe in the second part, which is Spencer’s opinion. If Christy was the one making these statements, I will have little hesitation in giving him the benefit of doubt.
I see so much criticism on peer-review process. It is best process we have to keep a level of standard and integrity in the published literature. As with any other great systems created by imperfect human beings, most often it works fine. It is easy to criticize the process, but it is difficult to come up with a different better process to achieve the same objective.
[Does not add to the discussion. Please let’s get away from fingerpointing~Charles the moderator]
What surprises me in all these discussions is that Roy Spencer’s conclusions are rather obvious when the satellite data – as used by Palle and others, are studied – the period of ‘global warming’ currently attributed to carbon dioxide also corresponds to a global cloud thinning (ISCCP data) and increased Short Wave flux to the surface of the order of 6 watts/sq m over many years compared to the computed CO2 radiative forcing by Long Wave radiation of 1.8 watts. This radiative flux data supports Spencer and should have shown IPCC that something was wrong. The changing clouds are likely related to the oceanic oscillations – but more, there is a large literature on the correlation between ocean surface temperature/oscillations and the solar cycle. The mechanism may or may not be as Svensmark and colleagues believe – there are other candidates, but there is very likely one that links the solar cycle to ocean surface temperatures via cloud density. And of course, the solar flux has increased 230% in the last 100 years (now perhaps about to decline), and this may be what has ultimately warmed the oceans – with some time lags when the oscillations amplified the effects.
When I reviewed this material a year ago (www.ethos-uk.com) I concluded that these factors could account for about 80% of the warming – thus reducing considerably the assumed climate sensitivity to carbon dioxide.
I spent some time reading the IPCC working group reports – no one was thinking ‘ecologically’ – i.e. each discipline operated separately and there was clearly no one with an effective overview of the science – it requires solar scientists to talk to oceanographers, oceanographers to talk to satellite data analysts in atmospheric sciences – and all of them to review the paleo-ecology of the Holocene, which would lead them to look for a ‘missing factor’ to explain previous natural fluctuations (as indeed Svensmark did).
I would expect it to take several years, but eventually the data that now contradicts the models will cause the models to be revised – already there are attempts to factor in ocean oscillations. How this will affect policy is another matter!
Evan Jones,
Sorry I feel silly for not knowing that. That certainly raises him up a few notches in my book.
Al Tekhasski says “Your logic is false. Oh yes, they both can be right. Earth climate is a multivariable spatio-temporal system…”
No, they can’t both be right when one claims that the radiative forcing due to CO2 is about 3.7 W/m2 and the other claims it is one third that. And, they can’t both be right when the disagree on what the sensitivity in the absence of feedbacks is.
And, the simplest reason that they can’t both be right is that one of them…Monckton…is definitely wrong (which leads immediately to the conclusion that they can’t both be right)! The “skeptic” crowd would stand itself in better stead if it acknowledged total pseudoscientific junk when it is used to support your point-of-view. The lack of discrimination, i.e., the willingness to use anything as a basis of support no matter how bad it is, really doesn’t do much to help your cause.
Joel,
“help your cause”… ?
I hope we’re not talking about causes. I hope we’re talking about reality. I hope we’re talking about science. I hope we’re talking about evidence… But a “cause”…? No, I think (most) everyone here wants to hear the truth (that’s not just a “skeptic” truth, it’s the actual truth).
We want a discussion of reality, not models. We want observed data and causation. If you have those things then present them. If they are convincing, we will capitulate, adulate and swoon (if you need that). We will give you all the credit you deserve for bringing these things to light and for educating us.
But with all due respect, honestly, what makes you so sure that the UN/IPCC/Hansen/Al Gore/C02 theory is correct? Humbly, I don’t think it’s the observed data, is it? If it is, then illuminate us. Seriously. Respectfully.
I really think that is why most of us are here… To find the truth. I can go elsewhere to find a “cause”. What is uniquely refreshing, engaging and honorable about this site (thank you Anthony and your moderation team) is that it is refreshingly devoid of “causes”. If you have evidence (and can be even mildly respectful) you will be heard.
So other than man-made computer simulations… what evidence is there?
2 cents… back to lurking.
Joel Shore says that the UN/IPCC…:
When Planet Earth totally contradicts the stated UN/IPCC prediction of global warming due to CO2 emissions, rational scientists change their minds.
What is your response, Joel? Is the climate in error?
Guys, can we stop this back and forth. I think we know where everybody stands.
Jason Salit: “So other than man-made computer simulations… what evidence is there?”
This is a very good question. What kind of evidence can we find and what kind of experiment can we do to validate (or invalidate) AGW? Obviously we cannot do a controlled experiment. We have to use whatever data we have. With that, either we have to use correlations (like those who are using with PDO) or one has to use some type of cause effect relations, which invariably will end up as a computer model since the problem is do difficult to tackle without using numerical methods. So, I am very curious what kind of data or what kind of experiments can we suggest to satisfy an AGW skeptic? I do not believe I have seen an answer to that yet.
By the way, computer simulations are not all that bad. Companies like Amgen use computer simulations to develop new drugs, it is actually very effective. There are lots of other examples. Computer models are simply the numerical version of the physical mechanisms we are aware of about a phenomenon. As long as we incorporate every important mechanism in the code, then we cannot claim that our correlative judgments are better than computer models. As time goes on, models will get better and better with the incorporation of new mechanisms.
Joel Shore (17:36:11)
“No, they can’t both be right when one claims that the radiative forcing due to CO2 is about 3.7 W/m2 and the other claims it is one third that. And, they can’t both be right when the disagree on what the sensitivity in the absence of feedbacks is. ”
So Joel, What is the sensitivity in the absence of positive water vapor feedback?
Jeez – Sorry, If my post prompted you admonition. But when we get toward the ends of these threads my pea little mind wants to kind of “sum things up”. My rationality keeps nagging at me to point out that we seem to be quibbling over unknowable’s (currently) modeled ad nauseam. We clearly (I hope admittedly by all) do not sufficiently know the input parameters anywhere near to the degree that we try to sell the output accuracy of these models. It doesn’t make sense to me. That’s not to say that I don’t respect those who are honestly trying. I just don’t think that we’re near to the point where we can start making predictions and “policy”… EGAD!
John – Thank you for the thoughtful reply. As a computer consultant I am truly hip to how useful computers can be. And I’m truly appreciative for what they can do for us (my living not withstanding). In climate modeling I think that the computer basically gives us a false sense of control/understanding. I’m certain that good honest work is proceeding (in good faith) to try and figure these things out in the digital arena (and I agree that they will get better over time). But when so much of the output is based upon “estimations” on the input side… It leaves me flat/unconvinced. So, for now… I’d like to see some actual data showing causality (not simulated). Also, *I’m* curious why you phrased your question:
“So, I am very curious what kind of data or what kind of experiments can we suggest to satisfy an AGW skeptic?”
Does that mean that you’ve seen enough hard science to convince a “believer”? Not being argumentative. My point is simply that the threshold should be the same for both camps. Empirical data. Science. Not a computer model (at least not in lieu of data).
Respectfully,
jp
@Peter Taylor
There is a very good DNSC/ESA report about correlation of solar activity and several terrestrian effects, inclusive ocean surface temperature.
@Peter Taylor
Hmmm… href tags didn’t work?
http://www.space.dtu.dk/upload/institutter/space/research/reports/scientific%20reports/isac_final_report.pdf
Please delete, if this link is shown in my last posting.
Thanks!
“Does that mean that you’ve seen enough hard science to convince a “believer”?
This is not my field. But earlier I posted a list of National Academics all over the world, a list of Nobel Laureates, etc. that endorse the AGW understanding. I assume they are convinced. I cannot find more than a few National Academy members, one Nobel Laureate, and one society, the American Society of Petroleum Geologists, that support the skeptical position.
“Not being argumentative. My point is simply that the threshold should be the same for both camps. Empirical data. Science. Not a computer model (at least not in lieu of data).”
No, that is fine. I am not arguing either – it is just discussion. I have been wondering about these questions for a while. My curiosity is on what kind of empirical data, what kind of hard science, would give a conclusion in one way or other? Also, how long would it take to have enough empirical data? Suppose we find a 4 deg rise in the next 10 years, I am not sure that will convince many of the skeptics. For every pattern, there is a possibility that one could bring a different explanation (whether justifiable or not) other than AGW. That is why we depend on scientists in the field to find the justifiable explanation.
“I’d like to see some actual data showing causality (not simulated).”
Among the many variables, natural and manmade, how do we disentangle the causal effect of one variable without using computer models, when we cannot carry out controlled experiments? Note that data itself does not show any causality, it is the analysis on the data which will show causality. Computer simulations are used only for that analysis. What about the following, it is just about the past – not computer models about future:
The following is not about you personally, but in general. There are some people who ask the question on the meaning of life. You can answer them the meaning of life is derived from what we want to be, to be a good person, to make money, to have friends, etc. Most often such a person who asked that question will reject each of these answers. In other words, in general the person who is asking the question does not know what kind of answer he is looking for and none of the answers will satisfy him. I am sure we all have seen such people. In such cases, many say, the question he asked does not have any meaning. For the question to have a meaning the questioner should have some idea on what kind of answer he is looking for. The same is applicable here, instead of criticizing AGW, it would be good if the critics could also explain what kind of data (or what minimum criterion) are they looking for to settle the case against AGW or for AGW. May be it is somewhere out there, but I have not seen it.
Joel Shore (19:10:07) :
Even Schwartz proffered the caveat that his original effort was incomplete and welcomed critique. It was a first-shot, and it’s not the results but the overall methodology that Schwartz is trying to develop. A recent rev. to Schwartz’ first range moved the center up & expanded the variance. So Spencer & other knowledgeable readers understand that Schwartz’ methodology is still under development.
The point of Spencer’s announcement is to show that a different empirical approach shows a disparate result.
Here’s the big problem: Why aren’t we getting real empirical data for CO2, water vapor & temperature readings from point-source CO2 sources? You know, taking radiosonde or direct in situ observations from w/in a lonely plume of clean, non-aerosol (no sulfates, nitrates, ozone or soot) CO2 at a methane-powered generating plant that’s downwind from nowhere.
Using radiosonde or laser interferometry the study would gauge the CO2-water vapor-temperature response over the course of a year. The results would probably be surprising, just as the huge soot surprise discovered using robotic planes w/in brown clouds (Ramanathan, et al, 2007).
The problem is, and continues to be, we lack solid empirical data for CO2-driven GW. We have an edifice of empirical data for a great many parts of climatology – rossby waves, long waves, wind shear & temperature, satellite data, deep ocean data and so on., But although the perceived level of scientific understanding may seem great, it could just as well be that there’s something crucial being missed.
Spencer is making this very point, as are others like Lindzen, Christi…. even Trenberth himself conceded a biggie just this past February, that some unforeseen ocean and/or air mechanism evidently let a great deal of anticipated heat radiate back into space. It was a big deal that Keenlyside admonished us not to become complacent, conceding that the expected hockey-stick trend stalled. The discovery that the Antarctic is far drier than thought represents a tempered view of warming over the South Pole.
The continued studies into the lower-than-expected relative humidity in the mid- and upper-troposphere were yet another indicator that there are problems in the bulk formula analysis approach of the current computer models. Taken along with the inexplicable lack of the tell-tale AGW “hot spot” predicted by the climate models and we know that the troposphere is doing something unanticipated.
And now we have proof the sun’s well into a dimming phase (already down by -0.1 degrC since early 1990’s), with heliophysical models and trend analysis showing the sun’s dynamo has shifted into a new regime that will be in full onset by 2020 (SC #25). This would be important news even for ardent AGWers and policy planners, b/c it portends a wider window of opportunity, with a TSI offset of easily another -0.1 to -0.2 degrC alone. Coupled with cosmic ray effects, the upper range may settle into -0.3 – 0.5.
Instead the news about the sun comes with few admissions from the IPCC that net solar forcing had to have played a role in the warming trend of the late 1970’s – 1990’s. And they have the gall to accuse Chris Monckton of being a charlatan?
It’s enough to have some doubt about science being able to model something that by its nature inheres a poorly constrained empirical scope, but to then IGNORE EVIDENCE that is knocking empirical nulls into the hull of the juggernaut and it looks science hasn’t changed much at all… orthodoxy and consensus still reify theories into facts, no matter the path has always been littered with minefields riven with empirical snobbery.
Case in point: We just discovered that neutrons are in fact mutually attractive, and this new proof nucleon-nucleon attraction is going to upset a great many articles of faith in the standard model. Other examples abound in describing the dangers of hubris in science and yet we continue to see the human factor conflating evidence for self and empiricism for ego. Karl Popper called it, but who listens to him?