Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Over at Lucia Liljegren’s most interesting site, “Rank Exploits”, she has another fascinating post, as is often the case. I busted out laughing at the post title, which is “HotWhopper Sou Doesn’t Read WUWT”. Given how often the lady in the Batcave over at Hotwhopper writes about Watts Up With That (WUWT) in general, and how much time she wastes trying to bite my ankles, I found this ludicrous. Lucia’s post was in reference to a curious network analysis by Paige Jarreau, which purports to show that Watts Up With That is hardly read by anyone in the field, and that the most-read climate blog is RealClimate. This is Ms. Jarreau’s description of her work:
What would it look like if you asked 600+ science bloggers to list up to three science blogs, other than their own, that they read on a regular basis, and then visually mapped the resulting data?
And here are the Jarreau results:
Figure 1. The section of the Jarreau results covering climate blogs. Lines show links, people who blog at one site and say that they read another site. Size of the names indicates the numbers of people listing that blog among the three that they read most. Click to enlarge.
Now, you can see WUWT in yellow over on the left, almost totally isolated from the other groups of blogs, in tiny type, with only a few links to it. This raises an interesting question, which is—how could Ms. Jarreau’s results be so far from reality? I say “far from reality” because by just about any measure, Watts Up With That is at the center of the climate blogosphere. Whether you look at total page views, “bounce rate”, page views per visitor, daily time on site, Alexa rating, you name the metric, WUWT comes out an order of magnitude ahead of any other climate blog. For example, Alexa rates WUWT as the 20,839th most popular blog worldwide … while RealClimate is an order of magnitude lower down, at 217,939th among all blogs.
Not only that, but WUWT is read by people on both sides of the climate divide, as evidenced by the number of AGW-supporting individuals and sites who comment on the WUWT posts, both at their blogs, on Twitter, and to their co-workers. The AGW supporters may only read it to see what the opposition is up to … but given their steady rate of responses, HotWhopper Sou and others read it regularly. Now to be fair, the results of Ms. Jarreau are preliminary … but still, how did her analysis get it so wrong? I’d say three things contributed to the skewed results. First, people don’t always tell the truth. Ms. HotWhopper is the obvious poster child for this. From the topics of her posts it’s obvious that she spends a whole lot of time reading WUWT … but she didn’t list it. I suspect that for some people, it’s a guilty pleasure, but that if asked, they’d say the equivalent of “I only read Playboy for the articles” …
The second reason for the skewed results is the way that news of the survey was passed around. It doesn’t appear that there was sufficient effort given to ensuring that the questionnaire was widely distributed. A better method might have been to write up a description and invitation to participate in the study, and to ask the various blogs to use it as a guest post. In any case, more thought about how to select participants is definitely indicated. Third, and in my opinion most important, there appears to have been no definition of terms, particularly as to what constitutes a “science site”. A large number of people in Lucias thread said well, HotWhopper Sou didn’t list WUWT because it’s not a science site … and according to them, the evidence for their claim that WUWT is not a science site is that often WUWT publishes studies which later turn out to be incorrect in some way, and sometimes are totally mistaken and wrong. To me, this reflects a profound misunderstanding of what makes a science site. The problem is that there are different kinds of “science sites”.
I’ll use mostly climate science sites as examples, as I’m familiar with them. One kind of science site is just a news aggregation site. The best example of this kind is Climate Depot. It just puts up links to stories about the climate with little commentary. Another kind of science site generally restricts itself to discussions of peer-reviewed science, but gives some commentary on each link. “It’s Not Rocket Science” or the Scientific American blog are examples of this category. Another kind of science site mostly deals with the original work of an individual author. Climate Audit and Isaac Held’s blog are examples of this kind of site. Then we have sites such as Lucia Liljegren’s site, or Judith Curry’s site, which reflect the individual interests of the author but which range widely over a number of subjects. Finally, we have Watts Up With That (WUWT). What makes WUWT unusual is that it is not a site that publicly discusses peer-reviewed science documents. Instead, it is a site for the public peer-review of science documents, including original work done by guest authors such as myself, and also studies which have been peer-reviewed by one of the journals.
This is a very different animal. To start with, just as happens with the secret peer review which is the usual format for the journals, not all of the papers that are reviewed will pass muster. Of course the journals don’t publish anything that doesn’t pass peer-review, they are hidden from view. But for public peer review such as goes on at WUWT, everything is visible, good, bad, and ugly. So when people complain that there are misguided or incorrect scientific claims posted at WUWT … well, doh. That’s an unavoidable part of the public peer-review game. Some of the pieces won’t make the cut. Not only that, but it is an extremely important part of the game. Knowing not only which scientific claims are wrong, but exactly why they are wrong, is perhaps more important than knowing which scientific claims are right. So yes, there is some very sketchy science that sometimes gets published and publicly peer-reviewed at WUWT … and almost invariably, it gets shot full of holes in short order. This makes WUWT more of a scientific site, not less of one. You don’t see that kind of thing happening at say RealClimate (RC) for a simple reason—such comments are invisibly and ruthlessly censored.
And that is why the Jarreau claim that RC is at the center of anything scientific is a joke. Science doesn’t censor scientific comments, and RC does censor scientific comments. You do the math. (Of course, all sites censor comments that violate blog policy, such as those that are vulgar or insulting, or wildly off-topic … but RC censors polite, on-topic, clearly scientific objections to their posts. No bueno.) As a frequent guest author, to me this pointing out of bad science is one of the most important aspects of WUWT—any mistake that I make will be identified in very short order. This has saved me immense amounts of wasted effort following blind trails … but some foolish folks think that my occasionally publishing claims that eventually turn out to be erroneous reduces the scientific value or nature of WUWT.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Identifying errors and falsifying claims is central to science, and the only way to do so is to first publish the claims that later turn out to be wrong. As a result, Anthony has to undertake a continuous delicate balancing act. He doesn’t want to publish things that are obviously pseudo-science, but then he doesn’t want to exclude things that might be right … plus sometimes he wants to publish things that he knows are wrong simply so that their errors can be publicly identified. Does he make mistakes in the choices at times? Of course. It’s a tough job, and it is a job that no one individual could possibly be qualified to do, for a simple reason—nobody is as smart as the collective wisdom of the crowd. There’s no way to guess what errors a thousand readers might find in a piece that you or I might think is flawless. And there’s also no way to identify the odd and curious scientific claim that in a few years might be “settled science”.
So Anthony has to pick and choose, and not every choice is right … so what? Since the public falsification of bad science is essential to scientific progress, I find the idea that WUWT is not a science site because it sometimes posts shaky claims to be very parochial and short-sited. Private secret peer-review has obviously failed. In fact, many of the ridiculously bad “science” claims discussed at WUWT are peer-reviewed studies published in the most prestigious journals … but nobody can get that kind of nonsense past the kind of public peer review which is exemplified by WUWT. There are too many smart, insightful, capable people commenting on the posts for much to slip by …
So yes, WUWT does publish some obviously bad science, including obviously bad peer-reviewed science. But what some people fail to understand is, public falsification is the heart of science … and the only way to do that is to start by publishing and discussing that science, whether it is “good” or “bad”, and whether or not it’s already been peer-reviewed. In any case, those three reasons are why I think that the Jarreau results are so out of touch with reality.
My best to all, my great appreciation to Anthony for his tireless work, and my thanks to Lucia. On my planet her posts are almost always fascinating, as are the comments that they engender. And finally, my thanks to all the readers, lurkers, and commenters for your continued efforts to move the game forwards. w.
PS—The usual request: if you disagree with someone, please QUOTE THEIR EXACT WORDS THAT YOU THINK ARE WRONG. This allows everyone to be clear about exactly what it is that you are objecting to.
Addendum by Anthony:
I thank Willis for his analysis and for his kind words. It should be noted that as far as I know, I have never been contacted by Jarreau to ask to participate in the survey. Shades of Cook and Lewandowsky’s methodology where you get your desired result by selecting your sample beforehand. (i.e. only ask the people that are in your circle) – Anthony
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That chart was mislabeled.
It should have been called “In Climatology today, Who sits at the Cool Table (people the author likes a lot) and who sits at the Geeks and Nerds Table (People the author would never, ever go out on a date with)
That’s all that is going on here. American Idol is more “scientific” than this.
Yep. It’s a chart of who they like not who they read.
How about “Climate Treehouse”?
RC and peer review is to science as the Catholic Imprimatur is to knowledge. From wikipee:
In the Catholic Church an imprimatur is an official declaration by a Church authority that a book or other printed work may be published;[1][2] it is usually only applied for and granted to books on religious topics from a Catholic perspective.
The grant of imprimatur is normally preceded by a favourable declaration (known as a nihil obstat)[3] by a person who has the knowledge, orthodoxy and prudence necessary for passing a judgement about the absence from the publication of anything that would “harm correct faith or good morals”[4] In canon law such a person is known as a censor[5] or sometimes as a censor librorum (Latin for “censor of books”).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprimatur
In Climate Science, Peer Review is an official declaration by the Climate Science Authority that a study or other work of fiction work may be published;[1][2] it is usually only applied for and granted to papers on things scary from a Climate Science perspective.
The grant of Peer Review is normally preceded by a favourable declaration (known as a nihil obstat)[3] by a person who has the knowledge, orthodoxy and prudence necessary for passing a judgement about the absence from the publication of anything that would “harm correct faith or grant revenues”[4] In canon law such a person is known as a censor[5] or sometimes as a censor real climate (Latin for “censor of science”).
A key difference is that the Catholic Church isn’t going to bend heaven and earth to prevent your publishing if you don’t get your nihil obstat. You simply can’t claim that you’ve got your RCC seal of approval. Catholic theologians who are pushing the intellectual limits often make a point of NOT getting an imprimatur so they can get their ideas out in the open for discussion and so they can avoid claims that they are trying to “corrupt” the faithful.
Looks like the network analysis of a climate circle jerk. Paige Jarreau’s website links to the interactive Gephi graphic. How did you get all the names to show up?
Like you I couldn’t make the interactive Gephi graphic work, so I grabbed the image elsewhere.
w.
Perhaps this link for access to the flaky chart?
https://155a2078255626663e33566e796f12caf0e22ee8.googledrive.com/host/0B5FtkJ8LVwqhTFNOQ0xwOTFxUHM/network/#rgb(209,0,201)
More, from my odd perspective, below:
Exactly, reach to your right and vigorously “peer review” your neighbors paper, while they pass on the favor.
The same high-quality misleading display of data that the “climate science” industry has become known for. Good for her!
You forgot the quotes around “data”, their other standard practice!
Looks to me like they took a flight guide from one of the North American air lines and copied names on it.
Real Climate is New York, Skeptical Science is Mexico City, and WUWT appears to have ended up in Japan. Odd.
Hmmmm. According to Alexa people view more pages and stay nearly twice as long on my rinky-dink website [ http://landscapesandcycles.net ]than they do on RealClimate. I suspect Paige Jarreau is just trying to drum up business for a failing RealClimate website that is descending into the dustbins of history.
Yeah, but your site is a) science and b) interesting … funny how far that goes even in today’s world.
w.
Let’s fix that for ya. 😉
To back up what I have just posted see a comment from ‘Sou’ at HotWhopper.
So there you have it.
I view this as yet another attempt to deceive. “Don’t believe your lying eyes, RealClimate really is the most important climate blog and WUWT is not important at all.” Standard operating procedure for these folks. For example: “Don’t believe your lying eyes, 2014 really was the hottest year ever and there is no such thing as the Medieval Warm Period or Roman Warm Period.”
Jim, love your work. A minor correction: landscapesandcycles.net
Thanks.
yr website address is http://landscapesandcycles.net/ – btw!
just went on yr ‘rinky-dink’ site and to yr amazon book blurb in which I read: “On the other hand it presents withering criticism against the politicization of climate change and those who have hijacked key environmental issues to the detriment of good environmental stewardship. Steele highlights how faulty science and bad models have misguided critical conservation efforts and misrepresented conservation success. Most distressing Landscapes and Cycles reveals how global warming advocates have opposed appropriate conservation efforts simply because the concerned scientists did not blame climate change.”
That in a nutshel is my personal, totally amateur beef with the whole AGW business. I would go so far as to say – without a shred of evidence but that’s the luxury of being an amateur! – that endless debates about global climate crises are perhaps the biggest obstacle to addressing real environmental issues which have to be dealt with not so much in scientific papers but in boardrooms and legislatures. Generally our cultures, both locally and globally, need to embrace mores that honour quality and Nature in general over mere profit and corporate hegemony of basic norms of commerce and local-regional development. Generally, I suspect it just boils down to common sense and good taste, but no doubt intelligent scientists can help identify certain key details that prove most helpful.
Arguing about whether or not the world is overheating or overcooling because if X anthrogenic input or Y is the ideal way to ensure that very little of substance gets done. My hat’s off to you for your work in the environment in general, and I’ll be getting yr book!
If it’s possible to edit postings, perhaps someone could edit Jim Steele’s message to correct the name of his website : http://landscapesandcycles.net/ ?
jim – i hadn’t heard of your site before – but after surveying it – i’ve put it in my bookmarks – the quality of the content might explain your site’s superior score – rather than any defects in Jarreau’s analysis
Thanks to all for the kind words and correcting my typos. I need to read what my clunky fingers type before I press post.
Oops, “short-sited”, does that make Tallbloke’s Talkshop long-sited?
An excellent chart of The Consensus. I check WUWT daily and ATTP almost daily. Occasional: Brandon’s blog, Lubos Motl’s blog, Climate Audit, Steve Goddard’s. This activity competes with reading websites with a more reporting-of-science focus such as Science News. The editorial commentary is contaminated but the actual summaries of current science are interesting and usually objective rather than emotional.
I think I’ve viewed Hot Whopper twice in my life but her obsession with WUWT is redundant; instead of reading WUWT-with-commentary on her site, I can simply read WUWT and make my own conclusions.
ATTP helps calibrate what’s interesting — if WUWT *and* ATTP think a thing is worth blogging about it’s probably worth my time as well.
It will be a great day when a model starts to predict with some skill.
have googled it but can’t find out what you mean by “ATTP” …
And Then There’s Physics
Self-styled ‘ATTP’ aka ‘Anders’ regularly gets his predelictions exposed at Bishop Hill. Deserved mirth throughout at http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2014/8/6/thingummydoodle-noodle.html
What happens if I ask 600 air travelers to list their destinations, rating each destination on its pre-flight courtesies, its restrooms, its taxi services and its connections to the capital building and international government offices?
Would you not display this exact type plot – but with very, very different results – if you asked the 600 members of the EU Parliament, the 413 members of the Canadian parliament, the 650 members of the UK Parliament, the 150 members of the Australian Parliament or the 535 combined members of the US congress?
If I ask the people from South Africa, would I not get a different result than if I asked the number of people flying through Saudi Arabia?
Willis, I agree with you on the taxonomy of blogs. However I don’t agree with the following: “[WUWT] is a site for the public peer-review of science documents”, WUWT has a number of functions, but if you were to squarely assess comments as to whether they constitute “public peer-review of science documents”, for the most part, I don’t think that they do. WUWT has an enormous audience and the comments show that the audience is interested and engaged, but its function, in my opinion, is different than the one that you describe.
Thanks, Steve. I’m not sure why you think that one of the major process here is not the finding of errors in a variety of posts. Consider for example the treatment of the Jelbring hypothesis that gravity causes a warming of the bottom of a long column of air. In response Robert Brown brought forward a lovely proof that Jelbring’s hypothesis was wrong.
The same thing was true regarding the work of Piers Forster, and the climate model of Scafetta and Loehle, and the “solar notch” model of David Evans and Joanne Nova. People identified and discussed the errors in their work.
And of course, for my own work the main thing that I see happening is that people look to find problems, mistakes and errors in what I write, and I’m glad that they do … how is any of all of that not peer review?
Finally, I and others have reviewed a host of peer-reviewed papers from the journals, many of which have been found terribly wanting … is that not peer review? And if not, then what is it?
Now, certainly that is not all that goes on at WUWT … but it is a large part of what happens.
Perhaps the problem is semantic in that it is not “peer-review” in the historical sense, but I would strongly argue that this public vetting and review of scientific claims is peer review in the 21st century sense.
So how would you describe what goes on here?
My best to you, and thanks as always for Climate Audit, your marvelous blog which was the ur-blog for all the rest of us,
w.
There ya go. And I thought it started with John Daly’s Still Waiting for Greenhouse.
http://www.john-daly.com/
Tasmania! Left off the map again 😉
A statement that I heartily agree with from a reader’s standpoint.
Does that make Steve McIntyre Gilgamesh? With Ross McKitrick as his mighty friend Enkidu?
Gilgamesh
Have WUWT readers ever been surveyed about why they read and/or comment here? It might be interesting to see.
Maybe the 80 / 20 rule. 80% of us have a hard science degree, 20% do not, which in my opinion 80% qualifies as science peers regardless of which side of an argument taken. Certainly more profoundly reviewed than a peer reviewed journal; example Scientific American. The volume of commentors is far more rounded in views and demonstrates far more interest than any of todays agenda driven journals. By the way, how are those journal subscriptions holding up? Similar to main stream media exponential slide into oblivion?
ide into o
Of course it all depends who gets to define the term “peer review”. Worse is they seem to be able to control the definition of who a “scientist” is. Non scientific academics are constantly declaring who is qualified and who is not. This qualification seems to rely on whether an individual supports the ephemeral consensus or not.
How very unscientific is that? GK
Maybe “peer review” is not 100 percent accurate here as in the other world “peer review” too frequently turns out to be “Pal review”. We just need a more positive term here.
You and Steve are both right but (IMO) are not talking about precisely the same thing. Steve observes the majority of the commenters purpose and you observe the consequence of some the comments. In my opinion the bulk of comments at WUWT constitute little more than the commenter affirming his/her membership in the skeptic consensus yet some of the comments contain deadly skill at skewering bad papers. Those same skillful commenters often contribute to other sites.
To the OP, blogs are notorious for “reblogging”, a term barely different that plagiarizing, and in many cases entire posts are lifted. Some blogs are purely parasitic and the old sow’s site is one such. Because she has limited creativity she chews WUWT in her slobbering maw then regurgitates back what she makes of WUWT content. Value added? Red meat for her sty mates. This lacks the least level of integrity granted even to aggregators who exist parasitically but without modifying the original message or even offering more than a brief summary or headline (Drudge, f’rinstance). The result of all this shared content is I can generally stay on top of what is happening at Climate Audit without visiting the site. That skews Alexis data.
Totally disagree that either Robert or you showed that adiabatic warming is wrong. It is a well known atmospheric and geological phenomenon. It is clearly expressed in Foehn winds and it is also a direct derivative of the “pressure broadening” Roy Spencer is so fond of.
Totally agree with the rest of this post and your response to Steve.
Hmmm – and I thought that coalescing stars ignited under gravitational pressure.
@Phlogiston
Give me a ring when the asteroid Ceres starts warming up.
Public peer-review of science documents is certainly new and not the same as the traditional forms of peer review where a selected group of people expert in a field are asked to review. Is the new public approach better or worse than the traditional in weeding out nonsense, I don’t know. I know I have seen some spectacularly poor papers that have passed traditional review and have read comments from reviewers which indicate the reviewer did not understand the review process.
What is certain is that climate science has become a public issue at the insistence of the IPCC and climate scientists and as such absolutely needs to have their work then scrutinized in public.
I agree with Mr. Eschenbach that WUWT is a great medium for drawing criticism to proposed theories and thereby enlightening readers. I have benefited many times from comments that various posts have provoked, and Mr. Watts is to be commended for providing such a forum.
But it is perhaps a slight overstatement to say that “almost invariably, [sketchy science] gets shot full of holes in short order.” For example, although The Bern Model Puzzle took a position that was, well, mathematically naïve, I saw no one address its shortcomings until the posting of Is the Bern Model Non-Physical? over a year and a half later. And, although rejection of the Jelbring hypothesis was a beneficial effect of posting Dr. Brown’s “lovely proof,” there remains little recognition three years later that the “lovely proof” is based on an assumption that is either indeterminate or wrong.
So “almost invariably” and/or “in short order” may be a little bit of a stretch. Nonetheless, a great amount of peer review does occur at this site.
Are Paige Jarreau and Naomi Oreskes twins? Their research methodologies are so utterly outrageous that they could only come from people with similar genetic characteristics. At least that’s the best explanation I can come up with.
“What would it look like if you asked 600+ science bloggers to list up to three science blogs”
It reveals alliances, not “truth” per se. Who talks to whom, who reports to whom. I’ve used similar techniques in my Navy career to discover or uncover the real sources of authority in a unit; it isn’t always the ranking officer and quite often the real leader keeps a low profile so that attacks happen on the subordinates and the leader is relatively hidden.
Same in business. Find out (1) who is pulling the strings, (2) the nature of those strings, and (3) who has been snared by those strings.
RealClimate is obviously the “alpha” surrounded by the Crown Colonies (Australia, Scotland, England). That suggests that concern about “the climate” isn’t global and neither are the alliances. It is a type of signature that will probably be manifest in unrelated topics but with the same cluster of alliances.
Can there be more than one alpha? Sure; every dog pack has an alpha.
Quite a lot of research reported at Nature or Science is not quite correct, or even completely wrong. It gets sorted out eventually, that is the process of science after all. A site hoping to present no erroneous information would be boring, authoritarian, and could only publish the most outdated and antiseptic material imaginable.
pretty much sums up Nature and Science.
Congratulations, Willis, and of course Lucia.
I’m grateful for the work you put in.
Willis, I applaud your comments. I have to add that all of us here have the obligation to man up and do the criticising of invalid science when it appears. Otherwise we will become the repository of nonsense that our critics accuse us of being.
I don’t think you can easily characterize WUWT. It does involve a lot of criticism, yes, but it’s a lot broader than peer review. And more interesting. It’s the blog I follow daily, along with Bishop Hill (a tad more intellectual) and Jo Nova (an antipodean POV), with occasional sorties to Climate Audit, the heavyweight.
The Jarreau ‘hacks-onomy’ should be called a “No-True-Scotsman” chart. It is (with some notable exceptions) a backwoods pedigree chart, a science-redneck genealogical diagram, indicating where the good ol’ boys of climatastrophy gather daily to exchange high sixes.
“…to exchange high sixes”
Are you suggesting…Climatic Incest?
Oh that’s such an ugly visual, and more nauseating than M&M Yak cookies.
[Well, exchanging high sixes leads to more cases of Climatic Insex, at least.
But do you not get more Climatic insects by exchanging low sixes? .mod]
I always start my day with Bishop Hill, since he has a six hour or more head start. WUWT follows shortly.
Brilliant article, Willis! You’ve really put your finger on what is so wonderful about WUWT, and why so many people, including me, are completely avid readers of this website.
I only read Playboy for the articles. The illustrated articles.
What’s ‘Playboy’?
James Bond, when he’s slumming.
Yeah I know…I was like, “Wait…What? Playboy has articles?”
OK, that network is clearly wrong. All the figures relating to measurable numbers prove that. So how did she get it so wrong? Here are a few ideas.
1 She may have taken “Number of Claimed Readers” / “Number of Posts”. As RealClimate is effectively a zombie site any readers at all would be huge.
2 She only asked “Approved Climatologists” Many people who engage in science do not engage in climate science. They are repulsed by ideas like reversing the null hypothesis and redefining peer review. But they wouldn’t be in this survey.
3 .WUWT isn’t just a science site. It is also a forum for debate about the whole field of climatology – politics and economics as well. People may have overlooked it for that reason. Politics is grubby.
Or finally,
4 WUWT is the online version of what New Scientist or SciAm used to be. It really isn’t a journal – it wouldn’t have the size of readership if it was. So some may have overlooked it for that reason too.
One thing that needs to be pointed out is that the Climate blogosphere was just one small section of this survey.
From what I understand about ‘mainstream’ science (or, as a New Testament expert put it, stuck-in-the-middle with you scholarship), it thinks it knows what pseudo-science is a priori. Of course the reasoning is circular (e.g. it’s not real science unless it gets published in peer reviewed journals), but there you have it.
There is a kind of ‘Reality Police’ out there who do not care about investigation but care only about their militant agenda.
You may have heard about a couple of TEDx videos that got effectively censored in 2013. Yes, that is the power of the Reality Police. That unsettled me a little bit, and I’m not usually one to be unsettled.
It is amazing that one cannot discuss transcendental ideas in TEDx talks about the boundaries of the scientific method. Quite boneheaded. I call TED DEAD now.
I would think that TED would be the last place for censorship of ideas. Sad.
And the recent study about ‘peer-reviewed’ medical science that showed that 80% of published medical studies were wrong?
I think you’re probably thinking of John Ionnadis papers on medical research that suggest that a LOT of published medical research (but nowhere near 80%) is dead wrong or substantially in error. What I find interesting is that Ionnadis’ papers are taken seriously and he is not called names by throngs of folks who seem to be sadly lacking in analytic capability and who have with no visible BS detector. OTOH, climate skeptics criticizing what certainly appears to be substantially sloppier “science” get pilloried.
FWIW Here’s a link to a brief summary of Ionnadis work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_P._A._Ioannidis
the “solar notch” model of David Evans and Joanne Nova.
From my involvement with that episode it wasn’t WUWT that identified David’s error (although WUWT thought he got it wrong). It was a commenter at Jonova’s that identified the error. And once that error was identified the articles stopped. The fellow who got it right was an expert in control theory. No one else criticizing it had those chops. I was with David until I read that comment and had the commenter elaborate on his point. I eventually got the commenter’s point (it took a little while – maybe a few comments of back and forth ) because I study control theory.
M. Simon –
You say “It was a commenter at Jonova’s that identified the error”. Actually, I identified that THERE WAS AN ERROR (had to be an error). David FOUND THE ERROR himself and thanked me for my persistence. FULL marks to David. A number of others like yourself kept the discussion interesting.
Nicely done!
I can understand the CAGW brigade reading RealClimate, but Skeptical Science and ATTP . . . ?
I’m with Jorge Kafkazar. My daily check of blogs includes WUWT, BishopHill, sometimes, Jo Nova, No Tricks Zone and many others. I like Willis’ reference to Playboy and Jorge’s to high sixes.
On a more serious note, Willis your data handling and analysis skills seem to me perfect to check out if the NOAA claim for 2014 being the hottest ever, (based on combining ocean and terrestrial data, and a hot NE Pacific), is correct. The form of the resultant curve (as shown by various Bob Tisdale posts) rising to 2014, is very different to any other temperature data curve such as RSS, UAH, Giss or others, which show 2014 lower than 1998 and 2010. Do the real data, such as Argo, agree?.
Keith, ARGO is not a surface temperature dataset.
Quite a few years ago a well known catfood company produced a slogan that 9 out of ten owners who expressed a preference said their cats preferred it. As with this chart it was quite obviously and logically completely false. As it happens the catfood tin ran a competition on the back of the label and there was a tick box questionaire that asked the question. Interesting thing is that 10% who were already using it didnt recommend it!
Similar here I think – and similar to the contemporary peer review process – if you ask only those who already agree with you you will never get the general concensus.
Yes, well said. What the cats prefer, and what they get, is not the same thing as what the owners prefer or even what the owners buy. Ask the right question, and you can want the answer you get.
I read Lucia’s post [ 30th december ] on Hotwhopper and the network as the comments were rolling in.
Like Willis I also was somewhat taken aback when a number of claims were made that WUWT wasn’t a science site.
My reaction was, No, it’s not a science site as the rather snobbish elitism of those commenters would see a science site. They obviously only saw a science site as something that matched their own not always pure elitist standards.
So it was very much a case of some at Lucia’s blog although not Lucia personally , to denigrate WUWT from their own purely personal somewhat elitist perspective where they seem to believe that only a blog site operating at the science level which they believed they were at could any blog site be regarded as promulgating science.
For my part I see WUWT as a link, a unique and increasingly vital one that has never really existed at this ordinary citizen understanding level before between the man in the street and the science world.
A unique link, and I will leave it to others to defines the reasons why, WUWT has taken off in the skeptic blog world to the point where it has become a byword for skeptics and I suspect for many of the doubtful and truth seekers in the alarmist camp. Increasingly so as the alarmist propaganda continues to get shriller and shriller and consequently ever more rancid in the public’s mind.
Not only as Willis points out, have we been presented in the past with fait accompli science, climate alarmist science being the classic case here, but science that in the past would accept no argument from the ignorant proletariat far below it in status.
We as a public have had some diabolically bad science as well as some very good interesting science presented to us through the medium of the various science orientated blogs of which WUWT is the most prominent.
It has made many I suspect, far more wary and questioning of science in general and very skeptical of much of the climate science at every level that was in the past unchallengeable by the science interested street level public who pay for this science including the large volumes of climate related trash science.
That is until the likes of WUWT and others sites of a similar standing and using the internet as the channel of communication started to put the the Good, the Bad and the very Ugly of science before us, the public, for our consideration.
What those who class themselves as members of an elitist science profession fail to understand is that their world has changed and continues to change in ways they never foresaw as the public come to grips with the fact that science, far from being an elist occupation pure in ethics and spirit is just as messy , good, bad, indifferent , corrupted , honest, vicious, distasteful, grandiose and every other characteristic that every other trade, and profession on this planet also suffers from and has to deal with.
The internet has seen to all the above.
Scientists can no longer operate in their cosy little self congratulatory groups and corrupt science to fit their own personal agendas.
For sooner or later they will be found out.
History has proven that over and over again.
So scientists, welcome to the real world, the same one everybody else operates in.
The world which the elitist amongst you have forgotten that this is also the street level world where you too started on your path to science, funded by those very people at the street level that some, only some of you now look down upon.
WUWT has been a vital link in bringing a very wide range of science down to the understanding levels of the public. WUWT is playing a vital role in uncovering the utter imbecility of much of what passes as science in many fields today.
The imprimatur of the denizens of WUWT on a science paper is increasingly I suspect, a passport to a much increased respect from the peers of the authors of the paper.
May it long continue.
I read Lucia’s post [ 30th December ] on Hotwhopper and the network as the comments were rolling in.
Like Willis I also was somewhat taken aback when a number of claims were made that WUWT wasn’t a science site.
My reaction was, No, WUWT not a science site as the rather snobbish elitism of those commenters would see a science site. They obviously only saw a science site as something that matched their own not always pure elitist standards.
WUWT was of a different science caste to that desired by Lucia’s commenters. But some of them seemed incapable of seeing that as they were closed minded on what constituted science.
So it was very much a case of some at Lucia’s blog although not Lucia personally, to denigrate WUWT from their own purely personal somewhat elitist perspective where they seem to believe that only a blog site operating at the science level which they believed they were at could any blog site be regarded as science blog.
For my part I see WUWT as a link, a unique and increasingly vital one that has never really existed at this ordinary citizen level of science understanding. A link between the man in the street and the world of science.
A unique link, and I will leave it to others to defines the reasons why, as WUWT has taken off in the skeptic blog world to the point where it has become a byword for skeptics and I suspect for many of the doubtful and truth seekers in the alarmist camp. Increasingly so as the alarmist propaganda continues to get shriller and shriller and consequently ever more rancid in the public’s mind.
Not only as Willis points out, have we been presented in the past with fait accompli science, climate alarmist science being the classic case here, but science that in the past would accept no argument from the ignorant proletariat far below it in status.
We as a public have had some diabolically bad science thrust upon us over the recent years as well as some very good interesting science presented to us through the medium of the various science orientated blogs of which WUWT is the most prominent.
It has made many I suspect, far more wary and questioning of science in general and very skeptical of much of the climate science at every level that was in the past unchallengeable by the science interested street level public who pay for this science, including the large volumes of climate related trash science.
That is until the likes of WUWT and others sites of a similar standing and using the internet as the channel of communication started to put the the Good, the Bad and the very Ugly of science before us, the public, for our consideration.
What those who class themselves as members of an elitist science profession fail to understand is that their world has changed and continues to change in ways they never foresaw as the public come to grips with the fact that science, far from being an elist occupation pure in ethics and spirit is just as messy , good, bad, indifferent , corrupted , honest, vicious, distasteful, grandiose and every other characteristic that every other trade, and profession on this planet also suffers from and has to deal with.
The internet has seen to the exposure of all the messy and more putrid bits of science at every level
Scientists can no longer operate in their cosy little self congratulatory groups and corrupt science to fit their own personal agendas.
For sooner or later they will be found out.
History has proven that over and over again.
So scientists, welcome to the real world, the same one everybody else operates in.
The world which the elitist amongst you have forgotten that this is also the street level world where you too started on your path to science, funded by those very people at the street level that some, a thankfully small percentage I hope, of you now look down upon.
WUWT has been a vital link in bringing a very wide range of science down to the understanding levels of the public.
WUWT is playing a vital role in uncovering the utter imbecility of much of what passes as science, particularly climate and green blob related science today.
On the good science side, I am starting to suspect that the imprimatur of the denizens of WUWT on a science paper is increasingly a passport to a much increased respect from the peers of the authors of the paper.
May it long continue.
where WUWT stands out with head and shoulders above other sites is the following:
as a very interested reader of science but with a “nutral point of view” on climate change (i do also read pro AGW sites like sceptical science, brave new climate and a few other pro and contra sites) i tend to agree with what is told in this article.
Sometimes you don’t need PHD degrees to connect dots of info with a good dose of common sense logic. Here i find that you can ask questions, find interesting (not always correct but AT LEAST a try to give a theory!) theories about newly discovered cycles in nature and so on.
imvho this is how science works: propose an idea (theory) see how it checks out, if not correct back to the field for new observations, include those, change the theory to the new findings.
Of course this gives room to errors or to incorrect theories, but at least this is the only site i know till now where you can openly challenge a theory or ask additional questions on hows and why’s… and where you get a reply. Also where you get methods of work so that if interested you can verify the claims.
that’s imho the main quality of science: often non scientific people can ask questions about things that are “overlooked” or that connect for example other scientific findings that are overlooked. not every scientist knows what goes on in the world or can’t keep track with the latest findings in the world (you have only 24 hours in a day and you have to do research and build your theory so you can’ see everything we’re all human we’re all prone to make errors or to be limited by time).
here at least you see a theory being built, and then or confirmed, or debunked or corrected with comments and sources. that’s REAL science.
Sadly i still have to find a similar site in the “pro AGW camp” if you ask there why the models don’t take the already proven natural cycles (like the AMO and PDO) in their projections your comment often doesn’t even show up.
Frederik: How right you are.
I read and comment at WUWT and BH as well as CA and JoNova because they encourage comments and commenters tend, for the most part, to be courteous. In this, CA is perhaps the most courteous blog around (a reflection of the character of its owner?).
I tried SkS and RC but I find the fanatical attitude of the warmists there to be so very tiresome, even more-so when a comment you’ve taken time and effort to build is just deleted without an explanation.
It’s perhaps of note that there are so many more trolls now coming onto WUWT and BH and trying to disrupt threads than was the case some years ago. An indication that their ‘home’ sites are fading into obscurity.
Harry Passfield says:
It’s perhaps of note that there are so many more trolls now coming onto WUWT and BH and trying to disrupt threads than was the case some years ago. An indication that their ‘home’ sites are fading into obscurity.
I have noticed that too. It is also a consequence of WUWT’s ‘no censorship’ policy. Trolls can come in and clutter up the threads with their anti-science, baseless opinions, along with plenty of ad-homs and personal projection. Too bad, because it spoils a lot of the science being discussed. The regulars here are interested in science, that’s what attracted us here in the first place.
Alarmist blogs can simply delete skeptics’ posts, and they do that routinely. I used to post a lot of charts, clearly showing that the global warming scare was nonsense. After a few dozen deletions without comment, I eventually stoped posting. They just cannot handle the truth. Facts deconstruct their increasingly strange narrative, which morphs as new facts come to light.