HuffPo: “Deniers” clogging up the blogosphere

You just have to laugh when you see articles like this.



Excerpts from an article by Mike Sandler:

Humans have put too many heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere, and now the Earth is running a fever. But there’s also an increasingly toxic atmosphere in the blogosphere, where climate deniers strategically confuse the issue, delay meaningful government action, and harass scientists and authors.

For decades, the media presented the climate “debate” as two sides that were evenly or closely matched. Then a few years ago, around the time Hurricane Katrina struck and Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth won an Oscar and he and the IPCC were awarded a Nobel Prize, the media began to realize that climate science is real and has consequences, and the “other side” is almost all empty rhetoric.

More sophisticated denier methods often appeal to:

  • Free speech (as if achieving consensus on climate science somehow takes away their Constitutional rights) or
  • The nature of scientific inquiry means always questioning your assumptions (ironically, the people who question the science of climate change, are likely those who question all science).

Gosh, excercising free speech and questioning assumptions, why, why, they’re TERRIBLE!

You can read the whole thing here. but I wouldn’t count on being able to leave comments:

Climate Deniers are Polluting the Blogosphere

Of course the thought hasn’t occurred to Mr. Sandler that the bulk of opinion has shifted.

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200 thoughts on “HuffPo: “Deniers” clogging up the blogosphere

  1. I keep waiting and waiting on some politician or media outlet to finally see the light regarding this while issue but it’s interesting how they have only seemed to redouble their efforts at convincing people of the certainty of climate change despite the mounting evidence to the contrary.

  2. I have read this turkey before. Gobble, gobble, gobble and not a word worth reading. But if you can’t attack the message then attack the messenger. This and much else we find in the “press” is uninformed, propaganda and sophistry. All these people seem to be good at is repeating press releases. I guess I should direct him to my essays on the philosophy of science. Maybe not to many big words I’m afraid. This kind of baffle gab unfortunately happens on both sides of the question. I have nothing better to say about blind deniers either.

  3. Gosh shucks, haven’t y’all heard? The science is settled. Al Gore said so. That’s enough for me. He’s won awards and he gets a lot of applause.

    Seriously, am I the only one who hears the sneering patronizing tone in these sorts of articles? Can the pro-AGW readers not notice this? I mean, really, Mike Sandler sounds like he’s addressing elementary students. His argument is overly simplistic besides being inaccurate. I do not remember the media ever giving an “evenly matched” debate. Then one hurricane and one documentary later… well… it’s all settled.

    Thanks, WUWT, for polluting the blogosphere. It’s my favorite blog and no whiny little patron is gonna change that. Blog on.

  4. Of course it wouldn’t occur to them (Mike Sandler, alarmists, et. al.) that the facts in the objective reality of Nature just don’t support the alleged AGW hypothesis.

    Could it be that people are just not dumb enough to keep swallowing the blue pill of Political Agenda Bias?

    Could it be that more and more people are taking the red pill and seeing the matrix of deception for that it is, Political Agenda Bias?

    It’s a neo world out there now where facts based upon hard evidence are required.

    I’m biased towards hard evidence.

  5. I love the belivers who scream “ad hominem” when you call them names like the fancy latin word for name calling is going to impress someone. Yet it’s perfectly OK for them to call deniers whatever they like. Typical libtard, greentard, [snip] (oops I used ad homenems I’ll surely go to greentard hell!)

  6. I love how those idiots never mention that it was a damn Peace prize – it had nothing to do with examining the science. It was the same prize that Obama won for “error 404, file not found.”

  7. The Russians — even the Russians — can see that Cap & Trade is an outright scam: click

    I’ve known plenty of Russians from my business in Sacramento, California. They are extremely wise to the ways of the world, and they make alarmist Americans look like fools.

  8. around the time Hurricane Katrina

    Ya, that was the most powerful Cat 3 hurricane ever.

    ;-)

  9. The average AGW skeptic produces 1,400 BTU’s (Balanced Theory Units) per blog view, while this seems high, its far below the 2000 AGW’s units (Agressive Green Wash) produced by toxic AGW/Reality reactions.

    Fortunately the ratio is not 1:1 BTU/AGW – its estimated that the ratio is around 10,000:1 in favour of BTU.

    Naturally the BTUs have a remedial effect on the AGW’s pollution, reducing the MRE impact “Medieaval Reductionist Effect”, whereby anyone disagreeing with AGW is denounced as a witch, and burnt at the stake.

    AGW is unsustainable, requiring the use of hundreds of Fossil Fools to stack the Post Normal Peer Reviewed papers around the feet of genuine scientists,… much of this was outsourced to China, – who forwarded it to India, – who subleased it to the E.U, – who created a Pivate/Public partnership with the U.N corporation, – who created a derivative market rule called the “Retardin’ Tradin’ Bill”.

    However, Experiments in High Integrity Particle experiments promise a unification of the Weak Intellect Force (AGW) with the Strong Intellect Force (BTU), producing a sustainable Fusion reaction – in which scientific enquiry goes ‘Post’ – Post Normal, ushering in a new era of transparency and progress.

  10. Shoulda been the Nobel prize in Economics. For one that one isn’t a “true” Nobel prize, and for another Gore has proven to be one of the biggest Rent Seekers in history, and has certainly skimmed his share. If not the Nobel he should win some kind of prize…

  11. Every so often, for entertainment, I used to check out the ‘green’ articles in HuffPo. It was fun. They post every extreme story imaginable, as long as it fits their hopeless bias.

    But posting a comment there was another adventure. First, one must get past their thought police. As far as I could tell, the mere mention of the word ‘Climategate’ was verbotten. So were any links that could lead to inconvenient thoughts. That limited what one can bring to the table.

    It was OK to say that the parrot was dead but not OK to attempt to substantiate that point… except to say yes the parrot is dead.

    But if you dared to suggest that the parrot was dead, that ‘community’ were like piranhas, and not nice piranhas either. An incredible display of herd behavior, mostly based on nothing but black-white, us and them, simplistic thinking. If you questioned Al Gore’s scientific prowess or any detail of the Green Bible, you must love Palin and, of course, be a ‘Tea Bagger.’ And, now, a racist. It was insane.

    Huffpo made me realize just how screwed up the good old USA is now.

  12. Does anyone else hear the music from the Twighlight Zone? The banjo from Deliverance? It is kind of sad to see an hypothesis twitch so much during the throes of death.

  13. More famous last words; “I’ve had eighteen whiskies, I think thats a record !!!”- Dylan Thomas

  14. Ahhh, that must be what caused the Labor party in Australia to take the Emissions Trading Scheme off the agenda.

  15. I’m not clogging up the blogosphere !! I’ve been at WUWT? the whole time. I’ve got witnesses!!

  16. Nor has it occured to Mr. Sandler to really study the science. Mr. Sandler come to WUWT and read. You just might learn something.

    The catch is, you have to be willing to question your beliefs.

  17. Then a few years ago, around the time Hurricane Katrina struck and Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth won an Oscar and he and the IPCC were awarded a Nobel Prize, the media began to realize that climate science is real and has consequences, and the “other side” is almost all empty rhetoric.

    Because you used the word, “consequences” plural with an s yet only listed Katrina as anything which could be interpreted as an actual consequence of climate science.

    Unless of course you meant that Oscars and Nobel Prizes are consequences of climate science.

  18. “For decades, the media presented the climate “debate” as two sides that were evenly or closely matched.”

    Huh? When was that, exactly? The only time I knew there was a ‘debate’ was when mainstream journalists about ten years ago suddenly all started screaming in unison “the debate is over, the science is settled”.

  19. Time and again I have asked Google to allow me to filter out “news” from the Huff and Puff Post. Even their asinine headlines give me a headache. So far, no action from Google.

  20. My sense is that the “toxicity” runs warmer at the believer sites … a sure sign of being on the wrong side of logic. Now the nuclear industry, governments, and people haters are left wondering what happened to the water tight climatological argument.

    To get a sense of the strange bedfellows entwined within the AGW movement, take a look at ‘The Optimum Population Trust’.

    http://www.optimumpopulation.org/opt.media.html

    “OPT chairman Roger Martin said PopOffsets, launched earlier this month and thought to be the first carbon offsetting scheme to channel funds into family planning, had received much praise…”

    If you poke around on their site you find that they want to reduce the population of the UK to 20 million – they are a little vague on the selection criteria for the chosen people – but no doubt the more equal humans will emerge in due course.

  21. Mike Sandler;
    More sophisticated denier methods often appeal to:
    The nature of scientific inquiry means always questioning your assumptions (ironically, the people who question the science of climate change, are likely those who question all science).>>

    My expectation is that Mr Sandler, by way of his slur above, intended to smeer skeptics as religious zealots who deny science. That he finds irony in the questioning of assumptions and scientific conclusions other than his own firmly held belief system is deeply… deeply… ironic. Alas, it is an argument founded not upon facts, evidence or reason, but on the least sophisticated of all possible arguments, the simple dismissal of any opinion contrary to his own. This too is deeply… tragicaly… and disturbingly… ironic.

  22. One thing that I really enjoy about WUWT is the back & forth between folks of different opinions! The scientific discourse on this blog is just amazing, and WUWT tolerates a wide range of opinions. Trolls pop in, but sometimes they can stimulate good discussions.

    However, RealClimate, HuffPo etc. have little to no tolerance to those who don’t drink their brand of Kool-Aid. This makes for very boring reading, as the comments sections are full of fan-boy banter, climate freaks preening one another etc. I have to force myself to some of these sites just to keep tabs!

    The AGW proponents better get used to the fact that, with ClimateGate, a very cold past winter across the northern hemisphere, healing Arctic ice cap and other facts, the majority of the electorate is turning against carbon control legislation. They have an uphill climb, and they sure don’t like it!

  23. “ZT (21:31:27) :
    [...]

    http://www.optimumpopulation.org/opt.media.html

    “OPT chairman Roger Martin said PopOffsets, launched earlier this month and thought to be the first carbon offsetting scheme to channel funds into family planning, had received much praise…”

    Does that mean i can continue running my car if i pay the OPT to have somebody else sterilized?

  24. Think of all the tax dollars we could have saved if we knew an Oscar, a hurricane and a prize would decide climate science.

    “Then a few years ago, around the time Hurricane Katrina struck and Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth won an Oscar and he and the IPCC were awarded a Nobel Prize, the media began to realize that climate science is real and has consequences, and the “other side” is almost all empty rhetoric.”

  25. I posted this….let’s see if it gets through…

    What makes you think, Mr. Sandler, that the people who don’t blindly accept the AGW theory only get their information from the funny papers? Your comments are insulting at best. Many of us “deniers” work in science, climate related science in fact.

    When temperature data is found to have been tampered wth, the IPCC’s AR4 found to be based on 1/3 non peer-reviewed papers, emails from scientists essentially in control of the premier climate science institutions actively working to thwart papers not in agreement with their own, and the mainstream media including yourself refuse to permit the general public to hear from qualified climate scientists present dissenting views…..people have an obligation to do precisely what you decry.

    It is unfortunate that so many are blindly accepting “facts” that are not. As the public comes to find that Michael Mann spliced apples onto oranges in a clever trick to hide a decline, and realize it is but the tip of the iceberg of a great swindle of science, you and the media will find yourselves furiously peddling backwards to avoid looking the fool.

    Let your readers see the blogs of Anthony Watts and Steve McIntyre, and let them draw their own conclusions.

  26. Time for a b*llshit bingo, get 5 right and win a prize, a smile on your face :)

    [x] heat-trapping gases
    [x] the Earth is running a fever
    [x] increasingly toxic atmosphere
    [x] climate deniers
    [x] delay meaningful government action
    [x] harass scientists and authors

    And thats just from the first paragraph (O_o)

  27. davidmhoffer (21:32:22) You should love this:
    A New Era of Partnerships: Report of Recommendations to the President – March 2010 http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/…/ofbnp-council-final-report.pdf

    “Recommendation 1:
    Form an Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships at the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and assign Faith- and Community-Based Liaisons to EPA regional offices………………..

    Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships at the EPA could help to unleash this potential and activate faith- and community-based networks to promote energy efficiency, environmental responsibility, and green jobs.”

  28. Wow Smokey (21:03:09), that Mishin guy really tells it! I too know Russians, as I did my grad research there in the early 90’s. Those folks see everything in stark reality.

  29. You have millions upon millions of people all across the world who have seen the Climate Hoax for what it is, and are not about to fall under the hypnotic spell any more.
    They see the weather not co-operating, they see the greed, they remember the failed predictions and they see the corrupted frenzy for monetary gain.
    The only support left is the polical power, those cashing in and those still hoping for a true environmentally sane outcome.

    And those untold millions tell thier friends all about it.
    Denialism, as the HuffPo calls it, went grassroots.
    It is it’s own Tea Party and it interconnects with all the others wanting to take back thier country/climate.
    And it’s the grassroots that calls the Climate Hoax’s bluff.
    Now that is a real torrent.
    The HuffPo is now in the Reactionary drivers seat.

  30. This makes me so sad,

    I feel so Bad,

    LIke a Cad,

    and they are mad,

    Can’t we all just get along and think of the children, the children who write opinion at Huff Po.

    Huff PO has got me so worked up I wrote really bad poem.

    Peace V.

  31. “Climate Deniers are Polluting the Blogosphere”

    I suppose clean water can be said to be polluting a sewer, since it’s something that’s not “naturally found” in that system. The dilution ratio is still pretty low, lots more clean water can be added.

    “…clogging up the blogosphere”

    To the CAGW faithful, I am a large glob of hair and grease impeding the free-flowing of their movement to its final destination.

    Good. Glad to be so helpful to their cause. :-)

  32. >Free speech (as if achieving consensus on climate science somehow takes
    >away their Constitutional rights) or

    I suppose that every would-be despot has to start someplace, taxing carbon dioxide emissions is easier to sneak past the general public than openly taxing our oxygen intake. I sincerely wonder about this angle, as one of the common themes on ‘my’ side of the fence is that most involved (at/near the top of the totem pole) seem to seek either profit or control and I find this rather disturbing. Judging by the behavior of many of the principle proponents of this issue (individuals and organizations both), I’ve found myself doubting their motives, their character, and unfortunately their honesty – something I’ve been almost wholly unable to do here. Unless of course this really is just intriguing window-dressing to sell weather gadgets and temperature dataloggers… ;)

    >The nature of scientific inquiry means always questioning your assumptions
    >(ironically, the people who question the science of climate change, are
    >likely those who question all science).

    I find this funny as this questioning is partly what led me here, and my assumptions were definitely challenged – it didn’t take very long to realize that those assumptions weren’t very well founded. Well, that and I think that labelling someone a ‘denier’ because they’re asking honest questions is a bloody rotten thing to do. Turns out I’m not the only one on this side of the fence that thinks so either – over the past few months many people in my circle confessed to having doubts about the issue – not because the blogosphere is littered with ‘denialist propaganda’, but because the issue as advertised doesn’t ‘add up’ to them. Polar Bears aren’t dying off, Arctic/Antarctic ice isn’t vanishing, green leafy plants love the CO2, earth isn’t turning into a fireball – what’s the problem?
    Cheers.

  33. “Gerard (21:26:50) :

    “For decades, the media presented the climate “debate” as two sides that were evenly or closely matched.”

    Huh? When was that, exactly? The only time I knew there was a ‘debate’ was when mainstream journalists about ten years ago suddenly all started screaming in unison “the debate is over, the science is settled”.”

    The debate started at the end of the 60’s and into the 70’s. At that time we were told we would enter an ice age if we did not mend our evil polluting ways. So we passed air pollution laws that forced manufacturing abroad, and our deindustrialization did help clean up the air (over here, but Taipei and Seoul, and after that Shanghai, Beijing and Hong Kong make LA’s air in the 70’s look clean. Taipei is actually pretty clean now since it’s manufacturing has moved to China). Carbon cap and trading should put an end to the manufacturing thats left in the Us.

  34. ‘climate science is real and has consequences’

    That’s actually true. But I don’t think Mike Sandler understand why though.

  35. This is a most extraordinary article, if it deserves to be called an “article”. None of it either bears close resemblance to the truth or displays any understanding of the substance of the debate (a debate that has only just started and was stifled for twenty or more years – something the author would know if he were talking out of his head and sitting on his posterior rather than the other way round).

    Despite my gross corpulence I am a qualified tap dancer. A native British form of tap dancing is clog dancing, clogs being wooden shoes. People found rhythmic contact between clogs and a solid surface was entertaining, so clog dancing became a popular performing art. Tap dancing as we know it today is another form of essentially the same art, the main difference being that metal taps on light shoes allow a greater variety of steps to be performed. Although I tap, I have never clog danced. For many years I have wished to do so. Now I don’t need to because I am clogging-up the blogosphere. Finally my dream has been fulfilled.

  36. I was watching Cris Matthews on Hard Ball tonight with James Cameron the film director and marveling at their utter confusion over the climate debate. These two gentlemen insist that big oil is behind the AGW skepticism – that’s you, me and all the other simple working stiffs that are NOT BUYING IT. The situation has moved beyond a typical political fight, IMO, and has now moved on to reveal a mass psychosis of some kind. Two intelligent men seemingly incapable of understanding the rouse that has gone on here or perhaps incapable of accepting the fact that they have allowed themselves to be taken in by this massive con. I’m betting that when the history is written about this whole episode the most fascinating part will be the degree to which people rationalized their faith in the religion of global warming.

  37. We should combine Manmade Global Warming Skeptic Day with Draw Muhammed Day into one global event and then see what the HuffPo thinks of that.

  38. “Clogging up the blogosphere?

    Cor blimey guv’na, don’t tell Gordon Brown. He’ll wanna ‘troduce a blogosphere congestion tax

  39. Sandler says..

    “The nature of scientific inquiry means always questioning your assumptions (ironically, the people who question the science of climate change, are likely those who question all science).”

    The key word there is NATURE. Don’t worry about us “deniers” questioning the science. Your problem is that MOTHER NATURE is questioning your questionable science.
    And she is providing the very answers you blinkered alarmists refuse to see.

  40. “You just have to laugh when you see articles like this”

    You’re right; I did, because that is all it is worth.

    Does he ever write anything of substance, or is it all “whining like a six year old” kind of stuff?

  41. “Gosh, exercising free speech and questioning assumptions, why, why, they’re TERRIBLE!”

    In future this will be seen not as a scientific debate, but a psycho-social phenomenon, whereby political activists tried to subvert science and free speech. And the outcome should be lesson about the internet age for all journalists. The game is up girls and boys – we can critique your work by providing facts, in real time and with global reach. Second-rate rubbish will be identified and attacked, by people including some who know a lot more about your subject that you do.

  42. On Huffpo I wrote, “There isn’t any credible scientific evidence that CO2 will cause any significant, negative change to our biosphere.” And they seem to have posted it (?). In fact, most posts seem to disagree with the Huffpo “consensus.” Do I need to find a new status quo to rail against.

    Bankers. F@#% um.

  43. Guilty, your honour! And I have no remorse and will keep clogging and blogging as long as they keep spewing out AGW pollution..

  44. I think “Climate Deniers are Polluting the Blogosphere” = AGW Antagonists are winning the Battle of the Blogosphere…

  45. After reading that load of hogwash at HP, I’ve concluded that it’s not the blogosphere which is clogged up, it’s Mike Sandler’s brain!

    In truth I feel sorry for the guy. He hasn’t looked at the evidence and as accepted the CAGW drivel like a baby taking milk. Another ‘useful fool’ for the CAGW propaganda machine.

  46. Problem is: emissions of nonsense contributes to the madhouse effect
    probably more harmful than the greenhouse one.

  47. The only way I make sense of this is with two components:

    a. people who have recently become disillusioned with consumerism and material abundance (in the 1st world) and want some new purpose and meaning in life — enter Gaia which is sacred and beautiful like a deity but doesn’t fall into the traditional notion of religion as there’s no personification of a deity, just a “web of life” (can appeal to Buddhists and Yoga types because it can appear “spiritual but not religious”)

    b. the “old” materialistic world which continues to do business, build infrastructure, and look for new opportunities — if it wasn’t for politicians trying to cut deals, global warming would still be a fringe issue only spoken about by group a. amongst themselves, bemoaning the state of the world.

    Part of the problem is that as people change gradually, they eventually get into some new “fad” or “purpose”. For many this has been the environment.

    When the new purpose or lifestyle is still in its early stages, it looks truly amazing and every aspect of life “has to be” this new thing. Basically it is like a “cult” stage. When people get into it, they want to forget and suppress whatever came before. Old friends who don’t believe, old products, old interests, these things all fall away and are forgotten. People will instead start to identify with not being a consumer (even though they still go to the shops and buy stuff). The car they buy is still a car, just a little smaller.

    Consumerism is just consumerism, kinda useful and necessary because we all have to eat, live in houses, pay bills. But when people start to go beyond just consumerism (because they’ve actually got most of what they need already) then they start to actively reject consumerism in order to get onto the next thing, like, service to humanity, or service to the environment, or whatever. But this active rejection is highly polarising. So it becomes a real problem. It becomes “good” versus “evil corporations”.

    It is a problem. We really need ways to reintegrate the post-consumers with healthy consumerism again. Many people on this blog probably do this already, handling both ecological concerns and material concerns together.

    But until there’s a better route through the rejection stage, then we’ll continue to have these insufferable accusations of evilness.

  48. Baa

    My oath, that phrase is very racist against Dutch people. It would seem our learned blogger friend does not know manners, let alone math or science for that matter.

    I was there when it began, long before the media tried to make head or tail of this free speech space.

    The best have allowed comments and the rest are fools allowing disconnect to kill audience, thru bastard unreasoned censorship.

  49. The trouble is that this nonsense is routinely fed to our schoolchildren. Just like religeon, the warmists seek their converts young to ensure their beliefs gain credence over the long term

  50. For the sake of reason, I will explain blogspace tends to sort itself out.

    Always has, I have had many mates down the years and a few unfriends too.

    But if your site is good, they will always come.

    I seen the first 5 go live.

  51. Well, what about blogs that simply don’t say _anything_ about global warming, one way or another? Aren’t they guilty of apathy, of avoiding an “earth-saving issue”, and therefore clogging up the blogosphere with nonsense as well?

    Right. Way to attackfree speech, Sandler (you idiot)!

    And what is all this about confusing facts? Doesn’t that mean something in the warmist set of facts contains something to be confused, such that a contrary position is the result? For example…

    Chickens lay eggs. Foxes eat chickens.

    Now, let’s confuse some facts. We all like to confuse facts, right? Alright then, let’s do it! :-)

    Foxes lay eggs. Chickens eat chickens.

    There is no way to confuse the stated fact that would result in a contrary position. The best one can hope for is just saying something different to the original statement.

    Of course, they can’t come right out and say what they really mean… That there are too many contrarian bloggers than they feel comfortable with. That would make it obvious what they’re really complaining about. They don’t want any opposition!

    But adding insult to injury, the use of the word confusion implies that we can only mix up what they say, and not have any original thought about it. Such silly and confused children, we are. And that’s because they don’t want to acknowledge that people can think for themselves, either. Why, that would mean… (gasp!)… opposition, which they don’t like!

  52. I understood that free speech was precious in the USA. Or is that only free speech for those whose talk is approved in some quarters, such as the Huffington Post. There seems to be a nasty touch of Macarthyism in its views.

  53. and that sir Gobalot Sanders is why you are not a blogger, just a clogger.

    No one gets it right, but good bloogers know when they it wrong.

    Me I am a centrist, that gives me a target rich environment to operate in.

    I know back in the Box Jack.

    Blogging is an Australian US invention, mostly US.

  54. It gets worse – from Australia, news today that Prime Minister Rudd has delayed emissions trading until 2013 at the earliest. We are about to have an election and this takes it off the table for the coming term as well as the current one. He has washed his hands no doubt. He was always a fraud and now the Greens know it too. ETS dead in Australia – pop the corks.

  55. browsing through the empty comments I wonder if Realpolitic is converting more people to skepticism than any “denier” site (as he would call them). His attitude is enough to turn anyone off the AGW side.

  56. And then like, there was Katrina….like that was
    our wakeup call! It was like hello… Mc People
    we’re killing the planet. Ya know, we shouldn’t
    listen to them cus they’re not like the IPCC. There’s
    like millions of scientists….and like five of them.
    That’s why I blog at the Huffers post….Smart
    people…Dugh!

  57. I was going to post a comment there, along the lines of the author’s assertions that:

    “…deniers don’t want to change their lifestyles or worldview.”

    Well, just as AGW catastrophic alarmists do not, in face of the facts.

    Then there’s the truly bonkers “If there’s no action before 2012,” says Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the Nobel peace-prize-winning IPCC, “that’s too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.” If you are a denier, it’s not too late to change your ways…yet. Do some research, but more importantly, open your mind. If you are already working to stop climate change, decisionmakers [sic] and the public need your help navigating through the polluted blogosphere and towards real climate solutions. Working together, we can leave a cleaner, more sustainable blogosphere for our children.”

    “Raj Pach says…by 2012 or it’s all over..sustainable blogosphere for our children…’

    I’d be dealing with a certifiable lunatic, here. And it honestly scares me. I don’t want to sign up my details to a blog with this nutter in charge. Or is that just me?

    If you’re braver than me, or just more foolhardy, please point out the slavering idiocy of his arguments. Ta

  58. JER0ME (20:34:03)

    That’s big news from down under, Jerome. Thank the world for sensible Ozzies.

  59. “the media began to realize that climate science is real and has consequences, and the “other side” is almost all empty rhetoric”

    Name calling and begging the question are all good signs that the alarmists are losing the arguments.

  60. Having read some of the comments on the HP site, it seems that most warmists are in denial of the facts, but then most seem to be incapable of debating in a rational manner.

    I wish they would expend more effort on realistic attempts to right man’s ecological wrongs, reduce the tyranny and greed of the ruling classes of most countries around the world, eliminate the deadly clashes between opposing ideologies and religions and develop a practical means of mining all the cheese on the moon to solve the problems of starvation around the world.

    Well, maybe the latter is fanciful, but it is about as realistic as cutting emissions/taxing carbon to save the world, at the same time dragging the more developed economies back to the dark ages.

  61. Thats what i don’t get about these AGW eco-warriors, they can’t see there doing more harm than good, taking away the focus of more enviromental problems to help line the pockets of the high priests.

    AGW has pushed back true enviromentalism into the stone age where there all pushing an agenda that has no basis in facts at the cost of true dialogy of how humans can live on a planet without impacting on it (I’m sure the people cutting down trees in the rain forests as an example are loving it as theres less attention on them now).;

    Hey the most devistating thing that humans are doing to the planet is a trace gas that if it wasn’t there would mean you and me wouldn’t be here.

    I’m not usually a name caller but there idiots.

  62. Com’on guys, it’s not funny. It’s pitiful, sad, embarrassing even. I don’t think Mike gets out a lot, or, something.
    And HufPo, used to be, well you know, side-to-side. But now they’re, you know, tzzzzt, a bit funny, but not in a laughing type way.

  63. Gary (20:41:25) :

    Gosh shucks, haven’t y’all heard? The science is settled. Al Gore said so. That’s enough for me. He’s won awards and he gets a lot of applause.

    Seriously, am I the only one who hears the sneering patronizing tone in these sorts of articles? Can the pro-AGW readers not notice this? ….
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    It shows he is either a government mouth piece or listening to government rhetoric. During the fight against Animal ID (NAIS) farmers were irate when they discovered one of the USDA’s more infamous documents stated that their operatives should treat all farmers as if they have a 6th grade education. The government thinks we are the easily lead gulible fools they have tried so hard to make us.

  64. Uh huh. Climate Deniers are Polluting the Blogosphere the same way CO2 is polluting the atmosphere: NNNNOOOOOOOTTTT!

    Try sustaining today’s population on 285 ppm CO2. Just wouldn’t happen.

  65. To everyone who fears the Huffington Post moderators, give it a shot anyway. They let me make about 10 comments and not one was censored. I mostly commented on other people’s comments, but the story itself is in dire need of a proper (and well-tempered) rebuttal. If I didn’t have to take off for the day I would make it my next task (and as you have seen, rebutting Sandler’s talking points would not be very difficult).

  66. Doug – “..two intelligent men…” You are being far too generous. They and their ilk have an agenda of world government, higher taxes, and the de-industrialization of the world. They are dangerous and inimical to the concepts and principles that the United States was built on.

    Doug S (23:01:11) :

    I was watching Cris Matthews on Hard Ball tonight with James Cameron the film director and marveling at their utter confusion over the climate debate. These two gentlemen insist that big oil is behind the AGW skepticism – that’s you, me and all the other simple working stiffs that are NOT BUYING IT. The situation has moved beyond a typical political fight, IMO, and has now moved on to reveal a mass psychosis of some kind. Two intelligent men seemingly incapable of understanding the rouse that has gone on here or perhaps incapable of accepting the fact that they have allowed themselves to be taken in by this massive con. I’m betting that when the history is written about this whole episode the most fascinating part will be the degree to which people rationalized their faith in the religion of global warming.

  67. Well that was a full-of-science story by what is definitely a learned author doing their part to propagandize ignorant people. They forget the whole ‘science part’ where it is those that propose some looney theory to show PROOF of same.

    I think it time we say put up or shut up to the alarmists.

    My guess is carbon credits aren’t what the used to be.

  68. Gail Combs (03:43:33) :
    The government thinks we are the easily lead gulible fools they have tried so hard to make us.

    But that is what WE are! We have been conditioned to be gulliable. Believe everything WRITTEN in any book as they have been “PEER REVIEWED”, so they must be 100% correct. Religion must be 100% correct as they have been peer reviewed many times when rewritten.

    Have you ever looked back at your education and said “that does not make sense?” No, that young, you expect the science to be correct as the teachers are educating this.

  69. Here is a strange post with todays date:

    Arctic mountains reveal treasure trove of ancient tools

    Is headed with a picture of sea ice taken in JULY 2008 taken through a fisheye lens such that it looks like a satelite picture. Picture caption below.

    “”Ice patterns are seen in Baffin Bay above the arctic circle from the Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker Louis S. St-Laurent Thursday, July 10, 2008. (THE CANADIAN PRESS/Jonathan Hayward)””

  70. Psychologically, I think it goes like this.

    They’re getting increasingly confused and doubtful – so they’re trying to reassure themselves that they’re not.

    Which is the point of most AGW sites, btw.

  71. I have but two words to say to Mr Sandler. The first word is an Anglo Saxon word which would fall fall of the mod’s snippetty doo dah thingy. The second word is – off.

  72. Stefan:

    But when people start to go beyond just consumerism (because they’ve actually got most of what they need already) then they start to actively reject consumerism in order to get onto the next thing, like, service to humanity, or service to the environment, or whatever.

    It’s Maslow’s hierarchy of needs in operation.

  73. What? There is sabotage of the transnational machinery? Well, if we feed the malcontents feet first it could be most educational.
    =========================

  74. If we are into epitaphs for climate blogs, can we modify

    Here lies Lester Moore
    6 shots from a .44
    No Les, no More.

    Here lies WUWT
    6 shots from a .303
    No WUs, WTf.

    Have a go.

  75. The HuffPo folks really do seem clueless. No wonder, if they’re being told what to think by people like Sandler.

    Maybe I should have put my post @04:41:41 today in the “Graham comes to his senses…” article here instead.

  76. “ZT (21:31:27) :
    [...]

    http://www.optimumpopulation.org/opt.media.html

    “OPT chairman Roger Martin said PopOffsets, launched earlier this month and thought to be the first carbon offsetting scheme to channel funds into family planning, had received much praise…”

    ___________________________

    Does that mean if I plant Epicyte spermicidal corn on my farm I won’t have to pay carbon taxes??? Maybe I can get grants from the Rockefeller Foundation along with those from Rockefeller’s Population Council.

  77. If the internet had existed during tulipomania, Dutch tulip promoters and those who had bought into the the tulips would be saying the same thing about those who were pointing out that believing flowers could be worth the value of a year’s wages are silly.

    The dark side of this is that AGW true believers think that the science will be more sound if the sound of skeptics goes away.

  78. Yuck. I clicked the link and was re-directed to HuffPo, presumably giving them a web-hit. I feel dirty.

  79. My post last night didn’t get through.

    I suppose it was just too much genuine information for them.

  80. This illustrates the watermelons’ totalitarian tendencies. All unacceptable thoughts must be purged as intellectual pollution.

    Rather scary really.

  81. Smokey (21:03:09) :
    “I’ve known plenty of Russians from my business in Sacramento, California. They are extremely wise to the ways of the world, and they make alarmist Americans look like fools.”

    I was studying in Switzerland while the US was in the panic about saccharin. CANCER IN RATS! – if you gave them the equivalent of a human drinking 5000 DietRite colas a day. The US was laughed at on a daily basis, I caught the brunt of it, being a ready target and all. They kept saying something about the non-linear behavior of the body… and I agreed. Why is it that non-linearity seems to give the panic artists problems continually.

    Now, it’s sad that some of the institutions which gave the world some of the sharpest thinkers in world history, are now producing non-thinkers, PNS tribesmen.

  82. Old tactics, attack the messenger, not the message. Confuse the issue, obscure the facts, and then make the lie large enough only few would believe you’d dare to say such a thing.

    It has served governments well in the past, at great cost.

  83. Tenuc (00:56:38) :

    “After reading that load of hogwash at HP, I’ve concluded that it’s not the blogosphere which is clogged up, it’s Mike Sandler’s brain!”

    Um, I think Sandler’s problem is a bit lower down because he’s certainly full of…

  84. Gixxerboy (02:25:09) :

    …..Then there’s the truly bonkers “If there’s no action before 2012,” says Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the Nobel peace-prize-winning IPCC, “that’s too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.”
    _______________________________________________________________________________

    Rajendra Pachauri was actually speaking the truth. If the UN does not manage to get their world wide tax through NOW it will be too late. The sun is quiet, the ocean cycles are turning, the ocean heat “has gone missing” and the Hoaxsters are well aware the earth’s climate is not cooperating. Climategate, IPPC gate and the blogosphere have the neutrals (the majority of people) starting to question whether the politicians are pulling a fast one on them… AGAIN. Changing the chant from “Global Warming” to “Climate Change” shows they know the jig is almost up.

  85. I usually ignore references to Wikipedia, but in this case it seems appropriate:

    “The Huffington Post has over 3,000 bloggers—from politicians and celebrities to academics and policy experts—who contribute in real-time on a wide-range of topics.”

    What, no real scientists? Who would have guessed.

    ” Among those who have blogged on the site are Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Heather Robinson, Michael Moore, Jimmy Demers, Madonna, Alec Baldwin, Norman Mailer, Saskia Sassen, Sheryl Sandberg, John Cusack, Larry David, Nora Ephron, Madeleine Albright, Robert Redford, Anneli Rufus, Neil Young, Rahm Emanuel, Albert Brooks, Mia Farrow, Russ Feingold, Al Franken, Ari Emanuel, Gary Hart, Edward Kennedy, John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, Jamie Lee Curtis, Ryan Reynolds, Craig Newmark, Donna Karan, Kenneth Cole, Ryan J. Davis, Donatella Versace, Bill Maher, B.D. Gallof, Lutfullah Kamran, M. K. Asante, Jr., Robert Wright, and Larry Gelbart.”

    What a wide variety of experts in all fields. Wow, I am really impressed.

  86. Amazing biased article.

    Is it time for a solar update? Sunspots have stopped appearing and none seem on the horizon, based on STEREO.

  87. The Warmers are still looking for a brand for us sceptics. First we were Global Warming Deniers. Then we were Climate Change Deniers. Now, according to Mr Sandler, we’re simply ‘Climate Deniers.’

  88. For decades the media presented both sides of the debate evenly.
    When did the debate occur.For years we’ve heard the debate is over but I don’t ever remember hearing of any.When you try to debate Gore and the rest of the globalwarming crowd they either walk away or cut your mike off .
    And as for Katrina wasn’t that a record year for hurricanes ? But you never hear of the other’s .There were 28 either t/s or cat 1 to 5 hurricanes with 3 being cat 5 storms.Never no word on there other storms.The hurricane isn’t what killed so many in New Orleans.It was the levees which needed repairing years ago but the money was always spent elsewhee.

  89. Gixxerboy (02:25:09) :

    “If there’s no action before 2012,” says Rajendra Pachauri…

    but,but,but Gordon Brown said we have only 18 months ? And thats already ,say, 4 months ago?

    2012?

    puh!

  90. The amount of clogging by the ‘deniers’ of the blogosphere compared to the total amount of the blogoshphere is like CO2 to the climate………irrelevant!!

    But i think it’s a good idea that hadn’t occurred to me before :-) and shall start poste haste!!!

  91. The only ones in denial are the AGW supporters. The volume of data which is inconsistent with the AGW hypothesis is enormous & growing all the time.

    The typical AGW response : continue to to ignore the data if it doesn’t conform to the gospel of algore. Now they suggest that we should get rid of free speech because they aren’t getting their way. This is not communist Russia, comrades. If you had stronger arguments, then may be you wouldn’t need to shut down free speech to win the debate. Think about it. Your statements alone that free speech should be limited & scientific debate shouldn’t allowed show how weak your arguments are. If your arguments were strong, they would be self-evident & you would be winning the debate. The reality is that skeptical arguments are much stronger & the public is seeing that. The public is seeing that AGW is nothing more than a stalking horse for the political left, especially the far left. By whining about how unfair the blogosphere is, you are just enhancing the publics perception this is all about politics & providing further ammunition to destroy your own point of view. As much as you hate it, people aren’t that stupid & they can see when someone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. The louder you whine about how it’s not fair that you are loosing the debate, the more the masses see that the threat of AGW is grossly overstated & that it is actually just about politics (which, if you haven’t noticed, people aren’t too happy with anything political these days).

  92. It is only a matter of time before media-savvy greenvangelists get caught engaging in sleazy CO2 producing activity and must tearfully whimper and whine to their supportive audience, begging, and apparently getting, forgiveness for their nasty activities. They are burning down their own house of cards.

    That said, it is rather fun to watch, point fingers, and giggle over their writhings.

  93. The article is an insult, in many ways, to the own author who wrote it. Sorry to say but posting this in WUWT is giving the article a publicity that it does not deserve.

  94. I think it has been 24 months since ‘Prince’ Charles warned the world, we only had 18 months to Stop Climate Change Disaster!

    “In May 2008, Prince Charles warned we had just 18 months before the world faced a series of natural disasters.

    “We will end up seeing more drought and starvation on a grand scale. Weather patterns will become even more terrifying and there will be less and less rainfall,” he said.

    …how’d that work out for ya?

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100121033000AAq4zf8

  95. Thanks Anthony for drawing attention to Huffpos ravings.
    When I see someone parroting the newly invented mantra about previous warm periods being limited and not global, I know they havent read the primary scientific literature, and are not sufficiently aware of the evidence.
    In the four months I have followed the “clogged up” blogosphere, the rants, aggression and fanaticism seem to be concentrated at pro-AGW sites, whereas WUWT and other “denier” haunts seem to be more interested in facts and discussion. A pity the majority of the academic community hasnt woken up to this. But perhaps there is movement..
    Keep up the good work of trying to use reason and information (while giving us a laugh from time to time at the expense of the nutcases… )

  96. kim (05:04:22) :
    What? There is sabotage of the transnational machinery? Well, if we feed the malcontents feet first it could be most educational.

    Nup — just noisy.

  97. So there he was, an angry clown yelling! And he was yelling at me!

    “You have put too many heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere! The Earth is running a fever.” “It’s ALL your fault!!” And I was scared. Scared of the clown. He was coming after me! I did it! I put those many gasses in the air. He was yelling at me that it was – my fault!

    And I was overwhelmed by the logical lucidity and in-depth scientific fluency of his words: “heat-trapping,” “to many,” “fever,” “trapping, trapping, trapping.” “gases!” OH MY! What should I do?

    Struck thusly, with an overwhelming feeling of responsibility for all of you and the whole world, OH MY, I immediately started researching “heat-trapping” as a process of gases, which ones are wont to do that and how many are “too many” – I had to know, I had to get away! I had to stop! It was MY fault! But I couldn’t as an over abundance of blood rushed to my head causing an excess of kinetic energy to manifest itself therein. OH MY, the clowns hot gassing had given ME a fever!

    Then I woke up in a cold sweat and realized it was just a nightmare. Gosh, I hate clowns.

  98. “…delay meaningful government action…”

    Right. The kind that has meaning for big business and will result in windfall profits for carbon traders.

    Replace “meaningful” with “corporatist” and you’ve got an accurate description of what “deniers” like me hope to prevent.

  99. I must say, I’m disappointed with some of the comments here. I would suggest that calling AGW proponents “greentards”, “idiots”, etc. is neither productive nor informative. This vitriol, though perhaps a direct result of the methods used by some in the climate science community only reflects poorly on those of us who believe that there is room to question the science. As with Anthony’s practice of linking to realclimate while they refuse to match the courtesy, we are shown in a positive light when we stick to facts rather than vitriol. I too, often curse at the statements made against us. I try to keep it to myself though as it only serves to reinforce the stereotype that others are trying to imply exists. The next front in this battle looks to be civil courts. Our words will be used against us where possible. Consider whether you would like to explain your statement to a jury trying to decide if you are impartial or not before posting.

  100. “DirkH (21:49:22) :

    Does that mean i can continue running my car if i pay the OPT to have somebody else sterilized?”

    That is the gist of it. The ominously named ‘Optimum Population Trust’ have various other schemes up their sleeves to bring the population of the world down to their target levels. The UK for example is deemed suitable for 20 million green ubermensch.

  101. When do we get to hear to about enviromental issues apart from GW.
    GW has blatantly clogged the blogo` and more importantly, the mainstream media,
    with a pack of scare mongering lies, hogging so much space, you barely get to hear a thing about any real enviromental issues. 1st class hypocrite.

  102. Mr Sandler should remember the old adage. It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool,rather than open it and remove all possible doubt!!

  103. I think, they, the believers need a lot of CASTOR OIL to unclog their little brains which are uncapable of understanding:
    CO2 it is not black, but trasparent and invisible
    CO2 is the gas you exhale. You exhale about 900 grams a day of CO2
    CO2 that you exhale is what plants breath to give you back O2 (oxygen) for you to breath. Then it is neither a pollutant nor a poison, it even rejuvenates!!!:

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1485258/carbon_dioxide_therapy_carboxy_therapy_pg2_pg2.html?cat=69

    CO2 is heavier than air, it doesn´t fly up, up and away CO2 is a trace gas in the atmosphere, it is the 0.038 per cent of it, or 3.8 parts per ten thousand.
    The atmosphere, the air ya know, does not have the capacity to “hold” enough heat, it only “saves” 0.001297 joules per cubic centimeter, while water , the sea ya know, has 3227 times that capacity (4.186 joules).
    Would you warm your feet with a bottle filled with air or filled with hot water?
    The so called “Greenhouse effect” does not exist, see:

    But if you have been cheated to the core and still believe in it, think the following:
    Svante Arrhenius, the guy of the greenhouse effect, said he thought CO2 acted as the “window panes” of a green-house, but as its concentration in atmosphere it is just 3.8 per ten thousand, you would have a greenhouse with 3.8 window panes and 9996.2 empty holes

  104. Brad (06:05:10) :

    Amazing biased article.

    Is it time for a solar update? Sunspots have stopped appearing and none seem on the horizon, based on STEREO.
    ________________________________________________________________________
    I was just over at Layman’s Sunspot Count and saw something interesting. He thought he saw what might be reversed polarity but the update shows:

    “…Day 18 once again looking strong. The rest of the world is 5 days behind the Layman’s Count clinging on to microspots in an attempt to persuade us all that the cycle is behaving as normal.

    The high latitude plage area is now showing signs of being of normal polarity, with a hint of a dark region preceding. “

    So the reversed polarity was just a false alarm. It is way too early for cycle 25.

  105. A number of “science” writers who climbed on the AGW
    bandwagon are very frustrated that anyone dared to rain on
    their parade.

    Now Australia, the nation third on the list of carbon emitters,
    has just said “No.” to weird or questionable science until
    after 2012:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8645767.stm

    Here in the United States, coming up with a effort to rewrite
    our immigration laws has suddenly been moved to the front
    of the line and climate legislation demoted to “some day”
    status.

    Since a direct attack on politicians who don’t sing along with
    the AGW band would be counterproductive to an aggressive
    legislative agenda, it’s time to shout down the bad bloggers.

  106. By far biggest news is complete drop of AGW by Australian Government today. Worlwide implications for the whole AGW movement LOL

  107. > DCC (21:29:51) :

    > Time and again I have asked Google to allow me to filter out “news” from the Huff and Puff Post. Even their asinine headlines give me a headache. So far, no action from Google.

    Piece o’ cake.

    1) Get Firefox, if you don’t use it already.
    2) Get the Greasemonkey extension.
    3) Go to http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/12643 and download & install the Google Results filter script.
    4) No more Huffpo.

  108. Did Sandler overlook nitpicking? I didn’t see any mention of making mountains out of mole hills.

    REPLY: No, that’s your department -A

  109. It is really a sad state of affairs that people buy this crap, and think they are engaged in a noble cause. Yet it is no more than selling out the prosperity of generations to come, based on an unsubstantiated theory. All the wasted resources directed toward this non-existent problem could be doing some real good in the world.

  110. Bandwagon science should be viewed askance. The fact that there’s a bandwagon associated with it means it almost certainly holds no water on the merits alone and is being embraced in support of a political agenda.

  111. All this crazy sub-culture began in the 1960′ s with the “Flowers’ revolution” in France, with the “sub-terraneans” and “beatnicks”, with Pot and LSD, and last but not least, Fidel Castro’s cuban revolution.
    BTW, just now, in History Channel, in its spanish version, are exalting the goodness of all these ideas, presenting them along the last ones: Evironmental “responsibility” and all “save the planet” crap.
    It is for us all to decide if all this “mango and rice” political porridge will finally replace society as we know it or if we’ll sustain traditional values.

  112. Ulric Lyons (07:27:55) :
    “When do we get to hear to about enviromental issues apart from GW.”

    It has been noted here many times, “It’s the water, stupid!” among points other than GW. And AW does cover numerous other environmental and energy subjects….. And the “war” is far from over.

    But still, you have a valid question. And, think of the billions that have been wasted that could have come close to solving so many other problems in the world and saving millions of lives.

    I think, at some point, we do a disservice to ourselves by over focusing on “their” – issue (GW), articles, blogs, bogus data, personalities, Etc.

  113. The solution to this is simple…. Everyone, follow my lead:

    “Yes, there IS a climate”.

    There. All those who joined me are no longer climate deniers, and are therefor no longer clogging the blogosphere.

  114. Gail Combs (07:51:29) : What if uranus/jupiter conjunction and uranus/saturn opposition is braking NASA’s “timing belt” producing sunspots. If so, we’ll have to wait until november.

  115. Of course the thought hasn’t occurred to Mr. Sandler that the bulk of opinion has shifted.

    No I think he has realized it, thus, this panicked drivel.

  116. “They” -the believers’ masters-and all their monkey troop won’t stop pushing their “Brave New World” ideology all along, because there is big money behind.


  117. Gail Combs (03:43:33) :

    … During the fight against Animal ID (NAIS) …

    Why is this a problem – and WHY is this a bad things again (traceability of ‘material’/stock in our food chain, esp. from the head-waters is a BAD thing)?

    I think your ‘big beef’ (forgive the pun) is with ground beef, in which case I would suggest you buy only whole cuts of meat …
    .
    .

  118. Roger Knights (05:02:37) :

    Roger this has less to do with Maslow and more to do with Green Economics which espouses a finite limit to economic growth. The resources and environmental demands of bringing all the world’s people up to “consumer class” standards of living would be catastrophic. To avoid the apocalypse and achieve social justice a Green Economy must be imposed as a replacement for the failed capitalist system (Its pretty much Marx except bunnies also march with the workers).

    A green economy is a service economy, focused on human and environmental needs. Matter is a means to the end of satisfying real need, and can be radically conserved. Current monetary policy is viewed as a tool of the “totalitarian consumptive class of elites” who lock the poor into repetitive cycles of poverty. To achieve the greater good the green economy must “tame” what people want and desire- it must destroy consumerism. (Solar and wind power will accomplish this task. It is why Greens aren’t concerned that renewables cannot replace our energy base load—they don’t want it replaced.)

    Green value seeks to develop Human Capital (similar to Marx’s Labor Power)- which rejects materialism. Current monetary policy is viewed as a tool of the “totalitarian consumptive class of elites” who lock the poor into repetitive cycles of poverty. (Its why any attempt to discuss costs of renewables with a Green is futile- financial costs have no meaning in their world.)

    James “Gus” Speth, founder of NRDC, CEQ under Carter, Dean of Yale’s School of the environment, founder of the World Resources Institute and Carol Browner’s mentor summed up the “new politics required to create a Green Economy as follows http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2075:

    The environmental agenda should expand to embrace a profound challenge to consumerism and commercialism and the lifestyles they offer, a healthy skepticism of growthmania and a redefinition of what society should be striving to grow…..”

    “Technological change and population stabilization alone cannot save the planet; a complementary reduction of material wants is also required. Even assuming rapid progress in stabilizing human numbers and great strides in employing clean and efficient technologies, human wants will overrun the biosphere unless they shift from material to nonmaterial ends……This can come about only by redrawing the boundary between market consumption and community life, between the individual as consumer and the individual as participant in the social and natural world. Individual motivations toward greater goods consumption will have to shift in favor of deriving fulfillment from community and nature “

    Welcome to the World of Ants. Please remember the above every time you hear someone talk about building a green economy.

  119. Gail Combs (03:43:33) :
    The government thinks we are the easily lead gulible fools they have tried so hard to make us.

    Joe (04:34:59) :
    But that is what WE are! We have been conditioned to be gulliable. Believe everything WRITTEN in any book as they have been …

    Unfortunately, some of you folk (ostensibly with good intentions) also think one can skip from the elementary basics to nuclear physics in about 1 step, neglecting a lot of small steps in between, where in each step one may learn a few things that aren’t in totality 100% correct, but each step in the learning/discovery/real-educational process brings one that much closer to knowing reality/knowing the ‘trvth’ (the journey actually being a never-ending journey).

    In our present ‘edukashun’ system, I think, there has been a failure to continue education beyond those elementary beginnings, the ‘journey’ is ending prematurely (an end has been, in error, pre-defined, by the education ‘professionals’ ), without seeing the need to continue ‘the journey'; that’s where I think ‘liberalism’/the modern educational system has failed (in my opinion).

    Toss in the shortcomings of the press, the short-sighted goals of the pols, the natural disposition of a portion of society to choose the easy course, and we are where we are …
    .
    .

  120. The AGW rhetoric has jumped the shark and sunk the ship,
    It’s underwater totally but they’re making toasts and blaming me,
    ‘Cause I’m cloggin’ up the blogosphere with ideas so clearly “Not Made Here,”
    OK, uh huh, alright, it’s true, I drank Kool Aid from Al Gore’s shoe,
    But as I gagged on the toe-jam taste, I read a bit and felt disgraced
    By the weakness of the science there – now I feel a real despair,
    For science will not soon forget, beaten down by a hockey stick,
    Shoved around and made to dance by numbers graceless, sad and scant,
    Spliced and splintered politics enough to make a grown man sick,
    As proponents of this Mann-made junk pontificate upon their stump,
    Claiming strength and naming names, screaming mega-bucks of blame,
    Carbon footprints raising dust but not enough to hide their lust
    For power to control the lives of countless folks in endless ways.
    They won’t stop or slow down much, they’re blind, enraged and out of touch,
    But like the rhino they resemble, they won’t stop ’til disassembled.
    It won’t be logic or remorse that causes them to change their course,
    Nor will science affect their view- they’re too far gone to care what’s true.
    Instead, I think their graceless final days will fade into a new Malaise,
    Some brand new monster, corporate made – “Oh no! Too late! Will Gaia fade?”
    “We must act now! Our time is short! Don’t hesitate – we need support!”
    “Don’t listen to those bloggers, NO! They lie! They cheat! They steal your soul!”
    “Don’t question us – it’s Settled Science – Green is King! You can’t deny us!”
    I beg to differ. I won’t back down. Words are weapons you can’t own.
    Because your lying ‘King’ is weak, I’ll take the podium and speak.
    I’ll keep on speaking, blog by blog – the truth will set us free, if shared…

    .

    .

    © 2010 Dave Stephens

  121. Smokey says:
    April 26, 2010 at 9:03 pm
    The Russians — even the Russians — can see that Cap & Trade is an outright scam: click
    Doug in Seattle says:
    April 26, 2010 at 10:02 pm
    Wow Smokey (21:03:09), that Mishin guy really tells it! I too know Russians, as I did my grad research there in the early 90′s. Those folks see everything in stark reality.
    ——
    That Michin guy also says: To Save Russia, Conquer Georgia!
    You are very desperate for allies?

  122. It is a shame Mike didn’t bother to research the issues that are being questioned before he posted his editorial.

    Here’s a list of a few of the groups who take issue with the EPA’s Endangerment finding and have submitted Petitions for Reconsideration.

    Petitions for Reconsideration of the Endangerment and Cause or Contribute Findings under Section 202(a) of the Clean Air Act
    EPA is currently carefully reviewing the petitions below.
    Petitions can be found here: http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/endangerment/petitions.html

    Petitions were filed by:
    Arthur G. Randol III, Ph.D.
    Counsel for the Chamber of Commerce of the United States of America
    Coalition for Responsible Regulation
    Industrial Minerals Association – North America
    Great Northern Project Development, L.P.
    National Cattlemen’s Beef Association
    Rosebud Mining Company
    Massey Energy Company
    Alpha Natural Resources, Inc.
    Commonwealth of Virginia
    Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change
    Science and Environmental Policy Project
    Competitive Enterprise Institute
    Pacific Legal Foundation
    Peabody Energy Company

    United States Representative John Linder (GA–7th District), U.S. Representative Dana Rohrabacher (CA-46th District), U.S. Representative John Shimkus (IL–19th District), U.S. Representative Phil Gingrey (GA–11th District), U.S. Representative Lynn Westmoreland (GA–3rd District), U.S. Representative Tom Price (GA–6th District), U.S. Representative Paul Broun (GA–10th District), U.S. Representative Steve King (IA–5th District), U.S. Representative Nathan Deal (GA–9th District), by and through Southeastern Legal Foundation Inc.

    State of Texas
    The Ohio Coal Asociation

  123. Ed Caryl says:
    April 27, 2010 at 8:10 am

    Gail,
    that list is a treasure! I bookmarked it.

    I first saw it here at WUWT so thank Anthony. At the time it was only 450 they keep adding to it so its worth a revisit.

  124. Gail Combs (05:27:26) :

    Does that mean if I plant Epicyte spermicidal corn on my farm I won’t have to pay carbon taxes??? Maybe I can get grants from the Rockefeller Foundation along with those from Rockefeller’s Population Council.

    That corn was a really stupid idea, it doesn’t take much real knowledge to know how readily genes can get moved around between plants. Just look at how far pollen travels, even without the help of bees and other pollinators. I can’t agree with all the conspiracy theories about it, as in I don’t want to believe there can be such malevolent machinations being done “for the greater good,” but I can see where a healthy amount of suspicion is warranted.

    Just more of what makes me worry that the human race is more likely to be done in by the “do-gooders” than those with purposely evil intentions.

    Of course, genetically modified crops can have some good benefits, which can sometimes seem rather humorous. Like tobacco becoming the next great biofuel crop. That should keep more than a few farmers in business. Maybe yield some nice-smelling car exhaust too. :-)

  125. Pat Moffitt :
    That’s the watermelon economy: Green from the outside and Red from the inside.
    The trouble is that, in that anthill wonderland, or in that “Brave New World” Bee-Hive, the chosen Bee-Queen Mumy will surely be “Rolly polly Al”. “They” are (supposed to be) the ones, the most intelligent specimens of the human race, born to govern upon us, ill fated individuals, with scarcely any intelligence at all.
    It will depend on each of us if we are to accept that.

  126. Doug in Seattle says:
    April 26, 2010 at 10:02 pm
    Wow Smokey (21:03:09), that Mishin guy really tells it! I too know Russians, as I did my grad research there in the early 90′s. Those folks see everything in stark reality.

    That Michin guy Smokey likes so much, sure is anti AGW, but
    he also says: To Save Russia, Conquer Georgia! Good company.

  127. _Jim says:
    April 27, 2010 at 9:00 am

    But when science and technology can be proven that the path we have taken is incorrect due to chopping individually science into sections with no cross-referencing, we have a problem. Our planet used all the resourses it had at it’s disposal to create a fancinating complex system.
    Trying to understand this planet created a massive amount of theories with very little understanding of the cross-over interactions.

    Example: Gravity is created from mass??? What is mass? What energy does mass have? I don’t see birds or worms stuck to rocks.
    In order to understand gravity, you have to know how our bodies interact with the planet, the energies our planet creates , the absolute complexity of the interactions.

  128. YOU ARE DOOMED!, nothing can prevent you from receiving the AH1N1 WHO’s vaccine, already bought by your government which will turn all Deniers into believers and Al Baby’s lovers.

  129. _Jim says:
    April 27, 2010 at 8:43 am

    Gail Combs (03:43:33) :

    … During the fight against Animal ID (NAIS) …

    Jim, the problem is not tracing animals, most of us tag our animals and keep records, I even have USDA scrapies tags for my herd. The problem is all the rest of the crap that goes with it. The whole idea comes from international Ag corporations who do not like pesky international borders or national laws that protect consumer health.

    My biggest complaint is that the World Trade Organization Agreement on Agriculture is REPLACING quarantine at national borders and disease testing by government labs with traceability. Thanks to the changes made by the WTO treaty California, Texas, Oklahoma and other states now have TB (it was eradicated in the USA) and other disease coming in from Mexico and South America. Also the USDA has drastically reduced testing and shut down labs so we do not even know if any diseases HAVE come in until several years later when a breeder animal is slaughtered.

    My next complaint is the intrusiveness of the program. The premises ID is permanently affixed to your property and removes your property rights. Warrants and probable cause are no longer necessary to search you property. A friend had a USDA agent go through his kitchen cabinets and frig looking for drugs. It also places a permanent encumberance on your deed and may change your status from owner to stakeholder. (A stakeholder is a third party holding property for the rightful owner)

    Any movement of an animal on or off a property must be reported within 24 hours at a cost of up to $10 per animal. Think of your kid going riding on her pony… Do you really want to have to tell the government ever time she AND HER FRIENDS ride on and off your property AND have to pay some data collection company for the privilege? If you do not own livestock do you want to have to report that your neighbors cows got out and came on your property, register your property with the government. Do you want to have to determine which cows (read their ear tags) trampled your garden and then pay to report the information? Do you want to be subject to fines because a passing vet saw the cows on you property and was required to report it and you did not?

    As Darol Dickerson stated:
    NAIS will put Livestock owners under closer surveillance than terrorists, illegals aliens, drug dealers, and convicted sex offenders/child molesters. Currently, only convicted sex offenders/child molesters have to register their premises.

    Gisela has a very good site with excellent carefully vetted info at http://xstatic99645.tripod.com/naisinfocentral/id10.html
    Another good site is NoNAIS.org

  130. Gail Combs
    So you have already noticed that there are A LOT of already signed binding agreements signed between the individual countries and UN agencies, from labor to health. Climate change is but one of the last nails on our civilization’s coffin.

  131. …So what we really need it’s a succesful blog, as WUWT, to fight with ideas against the existence of the UN itself. We need to defend our liberties and preserve our freedom.

  132. #
    #
    kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
    April 27, 2010 at 9:34 am
    That corn was a really stupid idea…
    ________________________________

    sorry forgot the sarcasm off markings.

    But I certainly agree with you. The originators of spermicidal corn and terminator genes for plants are the ones who should be up for criminal charges as Crimes against humanity not “climate deniers” As an American, I am ashamed to admit that the USDA is implicated in both.

    I was aware that GMO genes can “transfer” thanks to this article: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/horizontalGeneTransfer.php

  133. DirkH,

    “Does that mean i can continue running my car if i pay the OPT to have somebody else sterilized?”

    Yes! By buying a Carbon Reduction from Sterilization Certificate, a company in India will abduct and sterilize a young person on your behalf, to allow you to emit CO2 for a whole year.

  134. Enneagram says:
    April 27, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Gail Combs
    So you have already noticed that there are A LOT of already signed binding agreements signed between the individual countries and UN agencies, from labor to health…
    _________________________________________________________________________

    I figured out the USA was headed down the tubes 20 years ago when I noticed the worker to government bureaucrat ration was getting way out of balance. That was thanks to statements made at a Dr Demming, Dr Juran and Peter Drucker seminar I attended.

    I have been active in the WTO- Agreement on Ag/ Animal ID/”Food Safety” battleground for around five years. It has been a real eye opener following the threads back to their international origins. (Been giving me nightmares)

  135. kadaka (KD Knoebel) Just imagine introducing those frankestein corn seeds into a country where corn was first engineered (following natural laws) and where you can find several hundreds of varieties ,from the one to feed chicken-the only one you know to purple corn; all these varieties, if accidentally bred with kool aid fools’ corn would disappear.

  136. I believe Martin Luther King had the correct approach to conflict—his approach was peaceful and polite, but not silent. This is clearly the right thing to do and it has proven to be a winning strategy (Ghandi also used a similar approach). MLK was so sure of this approach that he had those that marched with him sign a pledge with the following points:

    Pledge of Nonviolence
    1. As you prepare to march meditate on the life and teachings of Jesus
    2. Remember the nonviolent movement seeks justice and reconciliation – not victory.
    3. Walk and talk in the manner of love; for God is love.
    4. Pray daily to be used by God that all men and women might be free.
    5. Sacrifice personal wishes that all might be free.
    6. Observe with friend and foes the ordinary rules of courtesy.
    7. Perform regular service for others and the world.
    8. Refrain from violence of fist, tongue and heart.
    9. Strive to be in good spiritual and bodily health.
    10. Follow the directions of the movement leaders and of the captains on demonstrations.

    Glenn Beck has posted this pledge along with the Five Principles of Nonviolence here:

    http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/39452/

    I’ll admit that since I took this pledge, I no long give “tongue-lashings” as frequently as I did. Those on the winning side of the argument don’t need to resort to questionable methods.

  137. Gail Combs: That animal tracking could be better applied, it’s all just a matter of ingenuity ☺

  138. Gail Combs says:
    April 27, 2010 at 10:58 am

    sorry forgot the sarcasm off markings.
    Eh, sarcasm on or off, still reads good either way.

    But I certainly agree with you. The originators of spermicidal corn and terminator genes for plants are the ones who should be up for criminal charges as Crimes against humanity not “climate deniers” As an American, I am ashamed to admit that the USDA is implicated in both.
    “Crimes against humanity” would be reserved for actual death and damages, but really, that comes too close for comfort. Like building an actual Doomsday weapon that really would destroy all life on Earth, then claiming innocence since you never intended to use it, then also saying there shouldn’t be any punishment since it was never used thus it’s not verified it really would have done that. Morons.

    I was aware that GMO genes can “transfer” thanks to this article: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/horizontalGeneTransfer.php
    Interesting read, thanks. I noticed GMO-related gene transfer in the news a while ago. But come one, gene transfer is a natural process. Viruses have been doing it for ages, acquiring genes from hosts. The flu bug has been jumping between species because of it. Whatever made them so sure they would stay only in their crops to begin with? “Theory vs Reality. Theory loses.”

  139. Tom in Florida (6:04 am) wrote: “Wikipedia… Huffington Post has over 3,000 bloggers—from politicians and celebrities to academics and policy experts—who contribute in real-time on a wide-range of topics.”

    What, no real scientists? Who would have guessed.”

    ———–

    They do let James Hansen rant occasionally, or at least they used to. I think he had some actual science training and used to be a real scientist.

    P.S. Anthony – Like the new format. Easy reading. Too bad its all clogged up with “deniers.” ;-)

  140. RockyRoad says:
    April 27, 2010 at 11:27 am

    “I believe Martin Luther King had the correct approach to conflict—his approach was peaceful and polite, but not silent.”

    I agree. However, over at Mike Sandler that doesnt work.

  141. mikael pihlström says:
    April 27, 2010 at 9:47 am

    “That Michin guy Smokey likes so much, sure is anti AGW, but
    he also says: To Save Russia, Conquer Georgia! Good company.”

    Aha. Attack the messenger again for something totally different.
    So the messenger didnt smoke this time? Didnt believe in God? Not
    working for Big Oil? He is a nationalist? Terrible!

    It might be difficult to predict wheather, but its not difficult to predict your tactics.

  142. RockyRoad: However are any other suggestions allowed? as : Why not identifying the few, hidden behind the scene, (perhaps less than ten people), and make them effectively reconsider their ideas?. For example, to mock at them is a powerful way, as their ways are really ridicule and silly (like preaching “global warming due to CO2″), exposing them to light is a valid procedure, they shun before light as Al Baby before science. Light acts as a powerful catalyzer. Of course, there will be always some of a most stubborn nature…to them I would condemn them to watch, at least a thousand times, Al’s oscar winner movie “An inconvenient truth”. (If they vomit their guts out it will mean they are converted).

  143. “Excerpts from an article by Mike Sandler”

    Exactly, Mike! And, furthermore, surely if Climate Deniers really cared about anything at all, they would have developed and provided to Climate Believers a version of an infant’s pacifier suitable for full-grown people, too, instead of only making them cry! QED

  144. @ RockyRoad, April 27, 2010 at 11:27 am:

    Just remember, nonviolence works against foes with a conscience. MLK Jr faced off against a majority who didn’t want a fight and wanted to do what was right. Gandhi went against the British Empire, not the then-current German regime. And I hope I’m not the only one who, every now and then, will pick up a “Made in China” product and remember Tiananmen Square.

    Nonviolence is for going against a moral opponent who needs convincing that your cause is a moral one. If that is your only approach to any conflict, well, good luck with that.

  145. “Dave Stephens says:
    April 27, 2010 at 9:07 am……………..[your poem]”

    That, IMHO, is the best poem yet.
    Congrats. Terrific

  146. Aye, and there’s the rub….

    The entire AGW fiasco could be summarised as an act of economic warfare, dressed up in a psyops livery, promoted as Edutainment, but intended as a crushing moral and morale blow.

    The kid with the magnifying glass, is giggling malevolently, as the ants scurry about trying to work out what the hell is going on.
    At WUWT we’re wearing ten thousand plus sun block, welding goggles and hand held mirrors.

    If anything erks those who would be emperors, its the decentralised, non local, pan-cultural counter to their machinations. The organic nature of the web has created an awareness, within humanity, quite unique in our history.

    We now see each other, more and more clearly, the means of subtefuge by the criminal political class, is failing rapidly.
    Where do we go from here? In the spirit of MLK, one and all?

  147. “there’s also an increasingly toxic atmosphere in the blogosphere”, all stemming, of course from the disinformation, pseudoscience, and outright lies of climate bedwetters such as Mike. But, they really can’t help it. In this great Climate War, the facts, science, and indeed the truth are all against them. I can almost feel sorry for them. Almost.

  148. mikael pihlström says:
    April 27, 2010 at 9:47 am

    “That Michin guy Smokey likes so much, sure is anti AGW, but
    he also says: To Save Russia, Conquer Georgia! Good company.”

    A “Poisoning the Well” fallacy, but if you are going to use that sort of argument then I feel I can use Robert Mugabe and Hugo Chavez right back at you.

  149. Obviously, MLK also encountered those that one probably wouldn’t consider “moral” adversaries. Indeed, he lost his life to one such person. However, it isn’t necessarily our stanchest foes that we need to ply with a peaceful, thoughtful, yet courageous and vocal approach–it is the general public. People like Mann, Hansen, and even this Mike Sandler and his cronies will likely never come to a reasonable understanding of either the science (I firmly believe it is beyond Sandler’s mental grasp) or the methods of civilized behavior. But that doesn’t force us down to the same level–such behavior doesn’t work against their opponents and neither would it work against our opponents. Uncivilized behavior merely puts us at the same level as the uncivilized and they use that to our disadvantage.

    So what to do? Be civil, get up to speed on the science, and voice your concerns, both here and on other forums (one of my favorites recently is the Washington Post, where climate realist comments now far outnumber those of the warmers), and in letters to your elected officials. Talk to your neighbors, relatives, friends, and by all means, vote! Our target is the uninformed and from the frothy response from some of the warmers recently, we’re making a significant impact.

  150. kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
    April 27, 2010 at 12:07 pm
    @ RockyRoad, April 27, 2010 at 11:27 am:

    Rocky,

    I like your comments and I disagree with Kadaka (except when I am really irritated).

    Nonviolence works with the immoral opponent as well – if for no other reason they simply do not know how to handle it. Immoral opponents can only use immoral means to an end. In the end it becomes apparent that they are immoral.

    WUWT proves this point. With consistent, clear and honest reporting, WUWT is probably one of – if not the most feared – of all blogs on the Internet by the AGW people.

    Thanks Anthony for this blog!

  151. Helen Hawkins;
    Nonviolence works with the immoral opponent as well – if for no other reason they simply do not know how to handle it>>

    Huh? Yeah, that non-violence thing worked real good on Hitler, stopped him in his tracks, didn’t know what to do, just kept herding people into gas chambers while he thought it through. Genghis Khan really bowed to non violence, as did Attila the Hun. Pol Pot was really afraid of non violence. Osama bin Laden, now there’s a guy who has been terrified into hiding in a cave somewhere quivering in fear that someone will be non violent to him. When Argentina grabbed the Falklands, it was good old non violence (plus some aircraft carriers, harrier jets, submarines) that got them back for Britain. There were some non violent protests communism that so terrified Stalin that he killed 20 million people to stop them. Sorry, I love this blog, and it is absolutely the right way to respond to the warmists, but don’t forget that people without morals will take what ever actions they think they can get away with. Don’t forget that sometimes they kill to get what they want. Sometimes they leave no other choice but to respond in kind, which we must never forget. Which is why at the bottom of war memorials are most often inscribed the words:

    “lest we forget”

  152. Pat Moffitt says:
    April 27, 2010 at 8:53 am

    Roger Knights (05:02:37) :

    Roger this has less to do with Maslow and more to do with Green Economics …

    That may be true, but it still has something to do with Maslow. His hierarchy of needs contended that once material needs were satisfied spiritual hungers and hungers for meaning began to take their place, and that environmentalism taps into this need. Hence what I commented on Stefan’s piece:

    Stefan:

    But when people start to go beyond just consumerism (because they’ve actually got most of what they need already) then they start to actively reject consumerism in order to get onto the next thing, like, service to humanity, or service to the environment, or whatever.

    It’s Maslow’s hierarchy of needs in operation.

  153. Er, HufPo just may have redeemed themselves about .00001 percentage points on the laugh-o-meter scale posting this –

    “…Acting on a tip received after passage of Arizona’s tough new immigration law, police have arrested Meteor Crater.
    In a daring predawn raid, Sheriff Joe Arpaio and a team of officers swept into Northern Arizona and surrounded the landmark, which made no attempt to resist…”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roy-rivenburg/arizona-arrests-meteor-cr_b_551990.html

    Just one question off the top – will I be taxed for exhaling excess carbon dioxide whilst laughing?

  154. David,

    You are right on many accounts but we need to be very careful that in our effort to destroy what is evil we do not become evil ourselves.

    I am concerned about the way in which we use our words and our intellect on these boards. Nasty name calling and ever so clever tit for tat conversations do nothing positive in dealing with the AGW people.

    Anthony’s approach with facts and civil behavior is the best and most effective way in dealing with ignorance – whether that ignorance is deliberate or not. This approach should be followed on all boards, gaining the respect of those people who still have an open mind about it.

  155. I would like to add just for the record. My husband, my two sons, my brother, and my father-in-law have served in the military. We are a military family. I do not discount disciplined legal use of force when all else fails.

    Moderator – I would not be offended if this off-topic is snipped. I realize this is not the direction this thread should be going.

    REPLY:Helen, please thank them for their service on behalf of WUWT, and thank you for your courage during deployment. – Anthony

  156. Is it just me that thinks if Mike Sandler shaved his head he’d be Mike Mann’s twin brother?

  157. Ha! Ha!…. funny! That Adam Sandler cracks me up!.. or is it Larry Sanders? I dunno they’re all fuuny!

  158. well, Andrew Weaver claims the National Post newspaper poisoned the Internet about him, because its critical articles were linked/repeated by many.

    Alarmists like catchy words and use them like sheep.

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