For all the hubub surrounding Dr. Michael Mann’s hockey stick, the MWP, and throwing out data past 1960 because it didn’t seem to calibrate against the instrumental record, here is a way to put an end to the issue. Have Mann’s, Briffa’s and others tree ring samples submitted to isotope analysis. Given how much UEA and Penn State want to protect their research reputations, it seems to me that this would be an excellent way to settle the issue independently. Unless of course, they threw away the original samples. – Anthony
From a press release by the Arctic Institute of North America
Carbon and oxygen in tree rings can reveal past climate information
Isotope analysis provides accurate information

OTTAWA, DECEMBER 2009 – The analysis of carbon and oxygen isotopes embedded in tree rings may shed new light on past climate events in the Mackenzie Delta region of northern Canada.
Scientists have long looked at the width of tree rings to estimate temperature levels of past years. Larger rings indicate more tree growth in a season, which translates into warmer summer temperatures. But the analysis of carbon and oxygen isotopes in tree rings can also provide accurate data on past climate events, say researchers working in northern Canada.
In a paper published in the most recent issue of the journal of Arctic, Antarctic and Alpine Research, Trevor Porter, a PhD student in Geography and Environmental Science at Carleton University, and three other authors compared temperature data collected in Inuvik, Northwest Territories (NT) since 1957 with their own analysis of isotopes found in white spruce trees in the Mackenzie Delta region of the NT. They found a strong correlation between the two data sets and temperatures.
“Isotope analysis is a good way to measure past climate change,” says Porter about the results.
Isotope analysis is not a new way to measure past air temperatures. However, the method has not been widely used because lab costs have been prohibitive, especially when compared with the examination of tree ring width. Now, however, the cost of equipment has dropped substantially making it more affordable for researchers to use this method.
Porter’s work was carried out on the northern edge of the boreal forest in the NT where trees are small but surprisingly old. “A 15 to 20 cm. tree could be a 300 to 400 year old tree,” says Porter.
This slow rate of growth actually helps researchers because smaller trees stay standing longer. Trees that fall begin to decay making data analysis difficult or impossible.
“Once they get too large, it’s difficult for trees to persist. They are susceptible to wind and ice storms. One of the reasons trees (in the North) persist so long is because they don’t grow as much,” says Porter.
Isotope analysis allows researchers to conduct their work using a smaller sample size than needed when trying to re-construct temperature records using tree ring width. Porter explains that the width of rings can vary considerably between trees even when they are growing in the same stand. This variation can complicate reconstructions of past climate.
A number of factors influence ring size, including the age of the tree and the location of the tree within the forest. Older trees tend to have smaller rings than younger trees. And trees within the same area might not all receive the same amount of light, nutrients or even water.
“Growth is controlled by many things . . . they (trees) can all end up just a little bit different,” says Porter.
Isotope signals, on the other hand, are often very similar between trees. This means researchers can gather accurate data from three or four trees instead of the 20 they might need for tree ring width analysis.
“In ring widths there will be more variability between trees. There will be similar trends, but you have larger differences that you would find between the isotopes of different trees,” says Porter.
Porter is hoping his work will lay the foundation for a model that can be used to investigate the long-term climate history of the Mackenzie Delta region. Although the temperature record for Inuvik only dates back to 1957, the dead and live tree ring record stretches to nearly 1000 years before present. That prospect excites the young researcher.
“The tree ring record goes back almost a thousand years in this area, but it’s never been used for a temperature reconstruction. This is a really exciting time to work in climate research, especially for a young student,” he says adding, “This is a hot topic.”
More information can be found at www.arctic.ucalgary.ca
See this press release in PDF form here
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Brilliant! Ask for the tree samples in a formal letter and cc the press. The ClimateGate audience will be listening…
Fat chance that Briffa, Mann, et al will submit their tree ring samples to such accurate scrutiny. As you surmise, the original tree ring samples may not even exist!
“UAE” should be “UEA”. Unless the Emirates are in on climategate too . . . . 🙂
abbeyroad69 (15:34:38) :
“UAE” should be “UEA”. Unless the Emirates are in on climategate too . . . . 🙂
Nice catch.
REPLY: Typo fixed, thanks – Anthony
Off topic but UK Telegraph reporting little support for AGM in new poll.
http://m.telegraph.co.uk/;s=LBm7y97YEwT3o6eQX_jnng03;feed=news/article/6737353/
Excellent. As I have said in other post I think Briffa and Mann are the point persons in this whole mess. Their work is central to the whole “hide the decline” “trick”. If reputable studies are found that restore the MWP and the Little Ice Age there is no unprecedented warming, no tipping point, no crisis begging for trillions in government intervention.
There is a treasure trove of climate data at the Hudson’s Bay Company archives from its traders, notably Peter Fidler, and Hudson’s Bay and Northwest Company surveyor David Thompson (his journals at the Archives of Ontario have temperature, cloud cover, precip., and wind records extending, though incomplete, from 1789 to 1812 in western North America and from around 1830 to 1845 in Montreal) who traded in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. I am not a climatologist but would records of this sort have any relevance in this debate about temperatures in northern Canada? I have transcribed most of Thompson’s from 1790 to 1812.
I understand one tree cross section is being used as a unique looking coffee table at Briffa’s house.
Sorry, the original wood has been sent away to make hockey sticks and mildly comic novelty chess pieces (pawns, I think).
You forget, the science is settled…
Unless of course, they threw away the original samples. – Anthony
Key words if they were ever spoken.
We have a picture of Mann holding one of those slices.
I am going to wait for all the details before I jump on board. What isotopes? Why should they be consistent throughout history? Etc.
Interesting concept, but I never fell in love with the O18 in the glacier approach because it depends on assumptions about the original source of the isotope that seem shaky to me.
An interesting press release and I’ll read the paper carefully when I get hold of a copy. However, I urge caution on behalf of everyone. There have been many attempts to extract an unambiguous climate signal using isotopes in tree rings. Indeed, if my memory serves me well Sam Epstein and co-workers did some early work on hydrogen isotope ratios in alpha-cellulose extracted from Bristlecone pines. I’m not saying that a climate signal is not present and that there is no measurable signal in tree rings. There is. However, one must be cognizant of the physical processes that underlie this signal. The oxygen and hydrogen isotope composition of trees is determined by the water source and subsequent evapotranspiration processes in the plant. The source is local ground and soil water which in turn derives its isotope composition from precipitation. There is a strong temperature signal in the isotope composition of precipitation which may be transferred to the tree as it grows. However it is likely that this will be modified by transpiration etc. and thus we will see other factors such as humidity, drought etc. have a bearing on the isotope composition.
Not with standing my comments I look forward to reading this paper. Readers might also like to check the results of the Millenium project. This is an EEC funded project to look at climate variability in Europe over the past 1000 years using tree rings, tree ring isotopes, lake deposits, marine archives etc. I’m not sure what results have come from this study yet. In light of the present discussion this project assumes great importance. The project leader is Danny McCarroll at Swansea and Esper is on the team too.
I’d like to see a graph supporting their claim, i.e., a close coincidence between their isotope data with an instrumental temperature record for the 20th century.
Sorry the Dog Ate the Cores, move along now.
Sean Peake (15:45:26) :
Relevant? Oh my, yes. The US Army nearly fell over itself setting up stations and observers to figure out the winds & climate of the US territories in the early part of the Nineteenth Century. It was certainly high on thier priorities.
Any picture we haven’t seen of the beginning of the Dalton is better than a big fat zero or a FILNET synthesis.
How stable are the isotopes in dead wood ?
VOTE OUR LAWMAKERS OUT. GO GREEN!! >>>> RECYCLE CONGRESS !!!
Al Gore may lose the Oscar, for lack of credibility
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http://jornalnacional.globo.com/Telejornais/JN/0,,MUL1404295-10406,00-AL%2BGORE%2BPODE%2BPERDER%2BO%2BOSCAR%2BPOR%2BFALTA%2BDE%2BCREDIBILIDADE.html
What about the Nobel Prize?
I personally think Deep Climate was to late. Unless some earth shattering event derails Copenhagen our nation of Canada will be forced by other nations to sign on to an agreement that will usher in an era of tyranny we have not seen since WW II. So I will finish my posts for a good while now with this very apt poem cited by Churchill on the door steps of WW II.
Who is in charge of the clattering train?
The axles creak and the couplings strain,
and the pace is hot and the points are near,
and sleep hath deadened the driver’s ear,
and the signals flash through the night in vain,
for death is in charge of the clattering train
Unless Obama backs off we are doomed to a police state run by commies and greenies. But I’ll not take it lying down!
re jcspe. I wouldn’t be so sceptical of high latitude ice core from Greenland and Antarctica. The temperature signal does seem to be robust, though there are some interesting issues regarding the delta 18O versus temperature gradient. i.e. the spatial 18O gradient when mapped against the spatial temperature gradient to give the d18O versus temperature relationship does appear to be different to the relationship as determined from a single site and carrying out the test by looking back through time.
Where there are real problems with the ice core record is in high altitude, low latitude ice fields and glaciers such as studied by Thompson and co-workers. Here source region effects dominate over temperature. Moreover, it’s my contention that many of the published studies suffer from poor quality control from sampling through to analysis.
what?, now were going back to science?
is this irony? (sent from u.s.)
A way to settle the issue? A brand new climate guessing method? Hardly.
It needs to be proven first, withstand scrutiny and the test of time, before it can be used to ‘settle’ anything relative ot this issue.
Chasing the results of shiny new ways of doing things (Mannian PCA, anyone?) is what got us into this mess in the first place.
Splice (15:49:24) :said “However it is likely that this will be modified by transpiration etc. and thus we will see other factors such as humidity, drought etc. have a bearing on the isotope composition.”
I don’t know the precise techniques but I assumed that relative percentages of the isotopes would give the temperature signal. If true, I would doubt transpiration, which is just the bulk flow of water, would effect the percentages at all. I would think the main issue would be how well the ground water,that supplies the transpiration stream, represents each year’s rainfall.
I applaud these fine people from my home town; but I will not hold my breath. No matter how much tax I have to pay for breathing.