Looking at thermometer placement and heat in the infrared

This seems odd…
http://www.thermoguy.com/images/urban_heat_generation_macs_store_thermal.jpg
Why are the building walls so hot, when the road asphalt is barely warm?

This seems odd…
http://www.thermoguy.com/images/urban_heat_generation_macs_store_thermal.jpg
Why are the building walls so hot, when the road asphalt is barely warm?

Look at the original. There are long shadows, which means the sun is setting or rising. The ground probably is not getting much radiation, but the vertical wall is catching direct sun.

The problem with looking at land usage impact is that if you do, it accounts for a fairly large portion of the last century’s change. That reduces how much CO2 could be resposible for. Can’t be having that.

Quote Lindsay H : “Whats the area of the planet covered by roads and buildings? 1%
The heat island effect from this is not going to have a measurable effect on climate.”
——————————-
Yes, but IF the majority of temperature measurements come from that 1% then the politicians can cause a major amount of destruction in response to the false data gained therefrom.
Quote Lindsay H : “De afforestation is another matter we are cutting down 7 million hectares a year nett. and in the last 200 years or so have lost 20% of the worlds forest cover reducing it to 4 billion hectares today.
There will be consequences from that.”
——————————————–
I agree Lindsay. I know it is not scientific, but as an experiment I used google earth and span the planet, closed my eyes and randomly stopping the planet I zoomed in on whichever location I had stopped the spin on. Finding somewhere with signs of human life was very very rare. Most of the time it was the ocean, occasionally I would land on desert or forest or mountains, but almost never on a city.
People who spend all their time in cities and travelling from one city to another by plane, can easily be fooled into believing that the earth has been massively effected by mankind. It has not as yet. Yes there are massive areas where there is massive pollution locally, but it is not a global issue, yet. As population grows, then the chemical waste we produce and the natural resources we consume are going to have an increasingly negative effect on our biosphere. We will eventually get to the point where the biosphere is incapable of adapting and recycling our damage to it fast enough to remain a viable biosphere for human inhabitation.
Before that happens we need to urgently establish the genuine threats to our biosphere and work tirelessly to eliminate those human based threats, in terms of ending and preventing chemical and genetic pollution of the biosphere. By genetic pollution, I refer to genetically modifications of organisms that are grown without sufficient safeguards to prevent artificial genetic alterations from “leaking” or “escaping” into nature. For example, there is some compelling evidence that genetically modified crops *might* be partially responsible for colony collapse disorder in bees.
We need to address the massive destruction of ancient forests and the massive chemical and genetic pollution before we start trying to create an artificial stasis of natural gasses in the atmosphere. (a stasis that has never occurred naturally at any time in the past). The whole unproven AGW distraction could be catastrophic for life on our planet over the coming centuries if it is allowed to take precedents over the REAL destruction happening in our biosphere…

I really think heat island effect could explain a large part of the global temperature anomaly.
Asphalt and houses represent 1% of the earth surface. This is not much but this tiny surface is radiating so much more than “natural” surfaces, that it could cause a temperature anomaly of less than a degree.
That’s not a large anomaly, but after all, that’s the anomaly we have now isn’t it?
IMO “global warming” is caused by natural change in climate (mostly from sun), and heat island effect (first it influences the measures, and it really causes an anomaly too)
And the best part… solutions exist!
IR reflecting coating, transparent, is already produced and can be added to asphalt and all coatings used in housings. Alternative pavement for pedestrians which store rain water like foam and keep cool under the sun exist too. etc…

#1 – Quote Lindsay H : “De afforestation is another matter we are cutting down 7 million hectares a year nett. and in the last 200 years or so have lost 20% of the worlds forest cover reducing it to 4 billion hectares today.
There will be consequences from that.”
________________________________________________________________________
You mistakenly (sp?) assume when they (forrestry/lumber companies) cut down a tree, they just leave the plot & go find another area to cut. That is as correct as farmers harvesting a single field of grain then going to find another field to havest.
No, the companies own that land and they understand they have to re-plant the trees for them to re-grow to re-havest at a later date. Trees, like wheat, corn and other farm products, are a renewable resource when they are re-planted after harvesting, which they are. So, here in the US at least, the only ‘consequences from that’ will be more trees to soak up CO2, cool the atmosphere through evaprotranspiration, and provide jobs for lumber companies and products for people.
#2 – “Pine Beetles have devastated 50,000 sq. miles of BC Forests and the response has been clear cutting. Look at the heat of the cut block…”
________________________________________________________________
If the Pine Beetles are killing the forrests in BC, the forrested area of the dead trees is going to be hot whether or not the trees are there. The trees only provide the cooling effect if they are alive and the evaprotranspiration is in progress. Once the tree dies and stays in place, the green is gone and the tree surface becomes hot with the shining of the sun. So, whether the tree is there or not, that plot of land will be warmer than the surrounding ‘live’ area of forrest. Harvest the trees, make them into a usefull product & re-plant new trees in that area…duhhh.
Reguards,
Jeff

The photos feature many properties around Kelowna, in the Okanagan valley region of British Columbia Canada. This is a warm, dry region in a narrow north-south valley, approximately 50 degrees north latitude. Prevailing winds are light and from the west.
I think some commenters miss the point about the effect of nearby structures on temperature and measurement. Whether or not man-made surfaces affect the global heat balance is debatable and largely irrelevant. What matters is that the surfaces affect temperature MEASUREMENTS, which are limited in number and which purport to describe the state of the planet as a whole. If you measure temperatures only beside an anomalous source of heat, you will conclude that the world is heating up anomalously.
Roger Pielke Sr. diligently reminds us that land use change drives local climate climate change. Replacing a low albedo forest with higher albedo crops contributes to local cooling, not warming.
Save the planet? If you think you have to, CO2 should be the least of your worries.

thefordprefect (05:21:55) :
3. MMTS is at same temperature as shaded wall (noting 1 above)
4. MMTS screen prevents radiation from hot wall (and direct solar radiation) affecting internal air temp.
The wall is radiating the MMTS on the other side from the photos view point.
Anthony should have photographed the MMTS from the radiating wall. Better luck next time?
REPLY: Yes the idea of the shield is in fact to shield it from the IR coming from the wall. But the problem is not the IR itself, but the air heated by the IR emission from the wall, which I cannot photograph. The shield is designed to block IR and direct sunlight but allow free air passage. – Anthony

I’m not sure what the point of all this is (other than making a case for better insulation of buildings). Regardless of whether the target area is covered with buildings or forests, it all receives the same amount of solar energy as insolation. That energy is either absorbed and re-radiated at a later time, rate and frequency, or its reflected to be absorbed and re-radiated elsewhere at a later time, rate and frequency.
I find it difficult to believe that the net gain or loss to the planet is impacted at all by the character of the surfaces. What does change is the nature of re-radiation and its consequence to local weather. But that’s not climate change, only weather change, and its a boundary effect, more than anything. The so-called “climate changes” are really just spatial re-distributions of the same heat energy.
As a biologist, I find most of the “climate-change” rhetoric amusing, most especially from physical scientists, since most the life on this planet evolved in an environment of change greater than anything we are currently seeing, and the resultant product of that evolution is an extremely high degree of adaptiveness to environmental diversity. The threat to the biosphere has much more to do with interspecific competition than it does with environmental adaptibility. I’m reminded of that every spring when my daffodils poke their heads up in Feb in deep sub-freezing temps, yet still manage to bloom gracefully a month or two later.

I am a degreed electrical engineer and I run a failure analysis laboratory for a major U.S. Federal Government aerospace organization. Our work is strictly in the failure analysis of electronic and mechanical things that go bad during design, test or in the field. We are NOT involved with climate research in any form or fashion, basic engineering only.
I have personal experience with thermal cameras of the type discussed in this article and the employees in my lab make use of thermal cameras on a daily basis. One of the things you have to do before using of these devices to measure temperature in a meaningful manner is to have a basic understanding of how the materials you point the camera at handle long wave Infrared Radiation (IR).
Many materials will simply reflect any IR that is incident upon them, very much like taking a picture of a mirror you will actually get a temperature reading that represents something that is emitting IR and being reflected by the surface in the camera’s field of view, the sun for example. These cameras have varying temperature ranges and they are typically within a few hundred degree C range so it is possible that some readings of very hot surfaces are actually readings that have saturated the range of the IR camera (an IR reflector reflecting solar radiation for example will show a temperature that is much lower than the temperature of the sun). I’m not saying it is so in these pictures but it is a distinct possibility.
Another perhaps more insidious nature of the IR camera is that it will usually read the temperature of the very first layer of material in its field of view no matter how thin. If for example there is a very thin piece of black paper exposed to sunlight in front of an ice cube you will get a very high temperature reading which is representative of the temperature of the paper only, the ice cube is covered by the paper and unless it is in direct contact with the paper it will not influence the temperature by a noticeable amount. In summary this type of image will accurately measure the temperature of the paper but does not accurately measure the amount of heat in the system.
Effective insulation will become very hot on its outer surface while being cool on the other side (this would apply to an air conditioned home or an ice cooler). The creates the apparent paradox that a cooler full of ice in a well insulated container can display a very high temperature depending on the type and quality of its insulation and on the surrounding air temperature and the surrounding long wave IR radiation environment.
These thermal cameras are excellent tools but these and other fundamental properties have to be taken into consideration prior to data interpretation.

To add to JeffK’s (05:14:49) comment, clearcutting beetle kill is a very efficient method of renewing a renewable resource. Timber is a crop and thrives with proper management. Erosion control, replanting, the protection of watersheds — these things and more are standard knowledge for the modern logger. They are farmers on a magnificent scale.
If there’s a different species of tree still alive and standing, the loggers leave it. When they’ve cleared the dead trees and debris, the planting team comes through and plants new trees. They’re small, young, viable, and planted on center in a close grid. The new trees grow quickly and within five years it’s an impenetrable thicket of glorious green saplings. In remote areas the strongest trees take over, and on managed acreage a logger will walk through and thin lightly to give the best of the batch an advantage.
Logging is something man can do well. Leaving huge expanses of beetle killed timber out there to rot is a waste. The wood can be used, the land restored (you do not want to see the erosion that occurs in dying forests), and the resource renewed. Where do we go bird-watching? Up by the re-planted clearcuts!
Anthony, very interesting to see the images. Thank you.

Somebody with a business using infrared imaging to help home owners and businesses save money by eliminating heat loss has recognized a way to jump on board the AGW money train. It’s hard to tell sometimes if these people really believe what they are peddling or just a few bricks short.
What a circus. This global warming fiasco will only get more bizarre. This idea and all that will follow will bring in countless new laws and regulations to be added to the carbon tax.

I remember (many years ago) seeing a diagram of a house in Israel which had a second “false roof.”
During the summer, the air space between the first & second roof warmed and rose; a vent was in the open position at the top, allowing the air to exit to the atmosphere, and a vent at the bottom was open, allowing cooler air to be sucked in from outside.
During the winter, the exhaust vent at the top was set to allow the warmed air to enter the attic (fans forced that hot air down into the living space). The vent at the bottom was set so that air from the living space could be drawn into the twin roof heating space.
While this set-up won’t prevent the exposed roof surface from getting hot from the sun’s radiation, at least it can focus the heat – outside in summer & inside in winter – to somewhat reduce the need for power driven HVAC use.

Interesting how it seems that everyone’s incorporating the green gospel as a part of their spiel, lending further credence to the silliness.

Bob Shapiro (08:40:50) :
I remember (many years ago) seeing a diagram of a house in Israel which had a second “false roof.”
Don’t know if it originated in Israel, but that is similar to the ‘envelope’ design. Very good thermal efficiency. And illegal in most places due to the increased fire hazard, the space between the roofs.
My house is passive solar, with 2×8 walls. Lots of thermal mass. Stays a bit warmer in winter, cooler in summer.
Using an infrared thermometer shows similar results to the photos, exterior wall temperature on the order of 80F in the dead of winter. (on the sunlit side) I’m a bit better off, no where near super efficient. Still, my heating bill is half my neighbor’s, and far less in summer. Using 2×8’s instead of 2×4 or 2×6 cost a bit more, paid for itself in a few years. We can do a lot of simple things to save energy (and money!)

By God now you are hitting close to my area of expertise where I can speak with some authority. I worked as a real-estate inspector and thermal image consultant in construction for several years… until the housing market crash of 2007…(bummer) These IR photos are very consistent with my observation of construction down in Abilene Texas. I would often see asphalt shingle temps hit the 180F to 195F range in the summer sun even when ambient air temps was in the 80s at mid morning. So, when you have those roof mounted temp stations, you are getting a massive heat overdose under those temp stations.
Often I would do night roof scans when I needed to “see” water leaks under roofing material. Water and asphalt shingles have different thermal mass, and heat and cool at slightly different rates. I would look at IR of a suspected leaking roof under various heating and cooling conditions and when contrasted against each other, the water or area of saturation will stand out. Also, keep in mind that water exposed to air will evaporate and show as a cold spot on an IR image during the latent heat of vaporization energy transfer process.
Incidentally the best roofing you can place on your home is white or silver metal roofing. This type of roofing is good for four main reasons. #1, the reflective color will allow it to run close to ambient temps (less energy uptake into your home that you have to remove with the AC units). #2 it’s hail proof, which is an important consideration in much of the US. #3, it is wind resistant. #4, it offers lower surface coefficient, which allows snow to slide off, so as not to over load the roofing structure in northern climates. As a bonus side note, termites don’t eat metal.
The best roof decking plywood is radiant barrier (foil backed) plywood available at Home Depot and Lowe’s.
The best insulation in an attic is approximately 4” to 6” of professionally applied closed cell polyurethane foam installed in a close attic system, which is now gaining popularity in green building concepts camp. This insulation is applied to the back side of the roof decking in the attic. If all the above are designed into a new building, it can reduce thermal uptake of the building by many, many, many hundreds of thousands of BTUs over the home’s lifecycle.
The most efficient heating and cooling system? A geothermal heat pump!
PS new construction material is not really designed to mitigate heat buildup from the sun. It was my observation that less than 2% of new homes had properly designed attic ventilation and heat mitigation systems installed. In fact, it was my observation that many new homes had higher roofing temps than older homes. Summary, Building generate a whole lot of heat, kind of like an air-cooled lawnmower engine… but larger.
Keep up the great efforts at WUWT…

The mesaage it is easy to understand: Why all those houses, which by the way created all that financial and credit crisis, return to old indians “tipis”( is this its name?) those were more energy efficient. 🙂

To add to JeffK and Sylvia: Net deforestation ended in the US in 1930 +/-. Since then the total forested area has increased. Wildfire prevention, natural reclamation of unused farm lands, and various government and commercially sponsored programs and management prescriptions are major causes of our reforestation.

Bob Shapiro (08:40:50) :
I remember (many years ago) seeing a diagram of a house in Israel which had a second “false roof.”
During the summer, the air space between the first & second roof warmed and rose; a vent was in the open position at the top, allowing the air to exit to the atmosphere, and a vent at the bottom was open, allowing cooler air to be sucked in from outside.

The Navy SeaBees used that style of construction in the tropics in the late 1960’s. They would space a galvanized iron roof up off the main roof with 2×4’s standing on edge to create a 3 5/8 inch air space below the outer tin roof. The would leave the eve ends open and a gap at the roof peak creating a continuous convection flow between the exterior tin roof and the main roof, keeping the shaded roof essentially at ambient air temp.
Larry

SpecialEd (00:50:18)
“The ground probably is not getting much radiation, but the vertical wall is catching direct sun.”
“Fun to watch the effect of a fast moving cloud shadow — the temperature drops substantially.”
That probably means you aren’t seeing the real temperature of an object, especially something like rocks or cement or asphalt, because they retain internal heat.
This looks mildly informative…
http://www.foamwyominggreen.com/research/research.aspx?researchtabs=2

It’s not surprising that trees and grass are much cooler than artificial building materials. They’ve evolved to make efficient use of solar energy, and waste heat is lost energy to them.

SpecialEd (00:50:18)
“The ground probably is not getting much radiation, but the vertical wall is catching direct sun.”
On closer examination, comparing it with a few other photos, the asphalt is about the same in all, and it is clearly hotter than the side of the house, except in the shade. But still, what do those temps tell us? If they only reflect the surface temp, and internal is lower, then they aren’t very informative. If there’s adequate insulation between the outside and in, the surface temp doesn’t give the whole picture. But for what AW is concerned about, it is very relevant.
@Allen63 (04:00:57) :
“Fun to watch the effect of a fast moving cloud shadow — the temperature drops substantially.”
So, does that mean you are only looking at the surface temp? If the inside were hot, the outside wouldn’t drop very fast unless heat transfer were slow, which would mean the material is a good insulator, and the inside probably didn’t get all that hot, even though the surface did? Look at the photo above that shows the pre-dawn view in which the concrete steps are still pretty hot from heat retained all night. Lower left, here…
http://www.thermoguy.com/images/before_sunrise_thermal.jpg
This looks mildly informative…?
http://www.foamwyominggreen.com/research/research.aspx?researchtabs=2
I see some other people were bothered by the term “generate heat” which a material that only radiates the energy it absorbs isn’t doing. Although since IronCowboy used the term “Summary, Building generate a whole lot of heat, kind of like an air-cooled lawnmower engine… but larger.”, I’m wondering if he’s talking about things like electric lighting and other real generators of heat, or if the term is also applied to radiating what’s been absorbed by the sun, as the author or the above paper seems to be using it?

@D. Gallagher (09:31:54)
oops, this is the main one I wanted to draw attention to…
http://www.intellectualactivist.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1100#Byline%201