Early snowfalls in Europe hit Historic Levels

Anecdotal for certain, but these keep piling up. This from the UK Snowboard Club. – Anthony


Early snowfalls in Europe hit Historic Levels
Posted Wednesday 3rd December 2008, 2:15 pm by Dunx

  • 20 year record snowfall in Dolomites enough to last all season
  • Some Swiss train services cancelled due to excess snow
  • Still more heavy snow in the Pyrenees
  • More snow for Scotland

www.Skiinfo.com is following still more heavy snowfalls across Europe over the past 48 hours, with much more snow in other parts of Europe and many areas of North America too.

The snowfall has been so great that it has closed roads, brought down power lines and even led to the cancellation of some Swiss rail services this week.

One of the greatest beneficiaries are the Italian Dolomites where 150cm (five feet) has fallen at Cortina in a 48 hour period up to Monday, with snow still falling.

Alessandro Fregni of Skiinfo.com’s Italian office commented, “In three days ski areas have seen almost as much snowfall as for the whole winter last year.”

The snow has arrived with perfect timing for the ski resorts who are seeing a boom in ticket sales at a time of economic uncertainty. Alessandro believes the snow is enough to last all season and will also mean resorts can save money by not needing to use snow making equipment.

However the snow is causing practical problems for both locals and those wanting to reach the snow with almost every pass in to the Dolomites closed on Monday and many villages without electricity. However the situation will be resolved quickly once the snow stops falling.

It was a similar if slightly less dramatic picture to the north where competitors at the annual season opening Santa Claus World Championships in Samnaun had difficulty getting to and from the event as Swiss public transport in the area struggled to cope with heavy snowfall there.

On Monday rail services were cancelled in the area of Eastern Switzerland due to the snow. “We should have used their magic sleighs.” joked a bemused competitor after missing his flight home as a result.

Most other Swiss resorts have great cover and more new snow. Skiinfo issued powder alarms in the past week for Skiinfo with 70cm (28 inches) and Davos 53cm (17 inches) of fresh snow each. Many major resorts now have snow depths of 2-3 metres (7 – 10 feet).

In Austria the snow cover is also superb with Heiligenblut the biggest recipient of the week’s latest dump, receiving a metre (40 inches) of powder in the past seven days.

Many of the open French ski areas have reported at least a foot of new snow in the past week. Several have much more including Les Arcs, with 80cm (32 inches). New openings this weekend include Les Orres, Chamrousse, L e Grand Bornand, Isola 2000 and Montgenevre. Alpe D’Huez and Courchevel will be fully open and Megève partly open.

It looks like the ski areas in the Pyrenees and elsewhere in Spain which dominated snowfall news in November with record pre-season accumulations leading top early openings of ski areas in the region will continue in to December, as the snow keeps falling.

Baqueria Beret in the Pyranees.

A new cold front has brought still more fresh powder to Spain (Formigal and Sierra Nevada have both received 70 cm/28 inches more powder in the past week) all the ski resorts in Spain will open for a three day holiday weekend. For Spanish skiers and boarders the Purísima Feast on December 8 is a must every year and represents the official opening of the winter season.

On the French side of the range Cauterets opened last weekend with 80% of runs available on opening day and up to 150cm (five feet) of snow.

Elsewhere in Europe conditions continue to be very good in Scandinavian countries too. Norway’s Hemsedal currently has 65cm (over two feet) of snow on its slopes, with Bjorli registering the greatest snow depth at present with 100 cm (40 inches). The country’s ski areas have received up to 38cm (15 inches) of new snow in the last week with Skiimnfo.com issuing a powder alarm for Trysil, the largest resort in Norway. The snowfall makes it possible for Trysil to open more slopes and lifts for the upcoming weekend, said Jan Linstad, Trysil ski area’s manager.

In Eastern Europe it’s a more mixed picture with some warm temperatures limiting cover. However Slovenian areas are open and Bansko has opened in Bulgaria with largely machine made snow.

In Scotland The Lecht re-opened last week before closing for a second time in November as the snow thawed. However more snow fell yesterday (Tuesday, December 2), temperatures remain well below freezing and heavy snow is forecast for tomorrow, Thursday (December 4), raising hopes of a weekend re-opening.

In North America the picture has improved dramatically in Colorado, just as it did this time last year before a meteoric snowfall season in which several resorts set record snowfall figures after a warm November 2007. One of the best reports is from Vail which has had 63cm (25 inches) of snow in the past week. Nearby Copper Mountain has also been able to open its Superpipe, the first on the continent this season. Conditions are generally less good on the country’s West coast however with delayed openings or limited cover at many ski areas.

Further north it’s a mixed picture in Western Canada with Mount Washington announcing it will delay its opening due, planned for this Friday, December 5, due to lack of snow.

“We have patchy snow on the ground right now after some rainfall last weekend,” explains resort spokesperson Brent Curtain. “We need to see approximately one metre of snow on the ground before we can begin slope preparations for our opening day.”

Further north still however Alyeska in Alaska has opened with a huge five metre (200 inch) base, although temperatures were reported to be as low as a seriously chilly 8F at the ski area summit on Monday.

On the other side of the region one of the early openers, Marmot Basin in Alberta, which has already seen 89cm (three feet) of snow this winter, opening another five runs.

On North America’s East Coast most resorts are open and in the case of resorts in states like Maine and Vermont reporting “The best start to the season for years.” with a foot (30cm) or more of natural snowfall at most, topped up by the extensive snowmaking systems common in the area.

Further afield Japan has had its first taste of winter too. Grand Hirafu in Niseko opened on 22nd November with things not looking promising and very little snow in the village and just a light cover of snow on the top of the resort. True to its self-proclaimed status of “powder capital of the world” however, over a metre (40 inches) of snow then fell in just three days.

Visit www.skiinfo.com to sign up for powder alarms from your favourite resorts, check current snow conditions and projected snowfalls with snow finder as well as exchange news and views in the Skier’ Lounge.

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124 Responses to Early snowfalls in Europe hit Historic Levels

  1. Richard111 says:

    Amazing stuff, snow. Sunlight sparkles off it quite spectacularly. :-)

  2. Neville says:

    I wonder how the delicate little fantasists are faring in Poznan at the moment?
    Wouldn’t it be interesting if they experienced some really good cold weather with heavy falls of snow on their fantastic parade.

  3. At 150m altitude near the Oslo fjord we have about 25cm of snow. It varies a lot locally, especially with altitude. This weekend we had -10C but right now it is 0C, projected to fall below zero again in the coming days.

    I would say this is “how it should be” and not in any way historic for this location. But it is clearly more snow near sea-level than we have seen in recent years. Maybe we are returning to how things were in the 60’s and 70’s?

  4. Mr B says:

    Excellent, I’m heading to the Alps in January and can’t wait. What’s interesting is the three main websites I check for news each morning when I arrive at work all carried this story (WUWT, Icecap and SnowboardClub.co.uk).

  5. Perry Debell says:

    Mt. Aigoual, Lord of the Cevennes is also doing better as far as snow is concerned.

    http://www.aigoual.org/

  6. Arnost says:

    It’s cold and snowing in China as well…

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/04/content_10458027.htm
    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/07/content_10469838.htm

    Which if it continues over the winter does not bode well for the hundreds of thousands of people still homeless following the May 12 Sichuan earthquake and still sleeping in tents or temporary housing…

  7. It was certainly pretty cold in Cornwall this morning; it would be nice to have some snow, we haven’t had any for years (but this is usual, living 2 miles from the sea!)

    OT: UAH is out for November at 0.254. This is quite a significant date because they now have the magic 30 years (360 months) of data – Happy Birthday UAH!

    http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/plot/uah/trend

    The linear trend over that time is 0.38K, or 0.13K/decade, 1.3K/century.

    All we need now is RSS next month and we’ll have 30 years of data for all four series!

  8. Richard Hegarty says:

    Nice to see an industry doing well in these times. Still i think i would perfer somewhere warm for a winter break.
    Remember reports like this from 2006.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/dec/14/austria.germany

    I like this part:
    “Banks in Switzerland are refusing to lend money to resorts below an altitude of 1,500 metres (nearly 5,000ft) and some small firms are closing, said Shardul Agrawala, who carried out the study.”
    How things change so fast, two years ago it was considered a big deal that a bank would not lend money!!!!!!! Now there is plenty of snow but i bet you could still not get the loan.

  9. FatBigot says:

    No snow today in the environs of FatBigot Towers, but it’s looking good for later in the week.

    This is just a wild guess, but I suspect Poznan has warmed up over the last few days.

  10. Paul Green says:

    It’s been a very cold December for Northern Ireland too. I can’t remember that last time it was so cold, this early into the winter. I’ve moved around the UK a bit, so I’m perhaps not the best judge. However, it’s been much colder than the previous two winters here and MUCH colder than the previous 5 in Southampton, UK.

  11. chemist Peter says:

    Relax, it is only but weather. No trend here, move on, the world is warming.

  12. The current state of the sun and its future suggest bumper years ahead for ski industry….20 spotless days and rising.

  13. Roger Knights says:

    The pranksters on Olympus are toying with us. (As always.)

  14. MattN says:

    If it gets any warmer, we’re all going to freeze to death….

  15. Robinson says:

    Although anecdotal evidence is “unscientific”, at some point you have to start paying attention to it, given the fairy tale of the `real’ scientific data (particularly Hansen et. al.) given by the adjusters.

  16. JP says:

    I’m not sure what the European forecasts are for this winter, but NOAA has forecasted quite a warm winter for the Midwest -with both coasts near normal. I sure hope this is correct. In Northern Indiana we’ve seen enough cold and snow this autumn.

  17. Rick Sharp says:

    A foot or so of snow around the middle of January in D.C. would be too much to ask for.

  18. Steven Hill says:

    Yes, that NOAA forcast has been dead on incorrect so far for Kentucky…..been in the teens each morning and we have snow on the ground.

  19. carbonkiss says:

    If this snow was falling as rain would we be so enthusiastic? What will result if it melts too fast? Many people still suffer from the delusion that global warming will result in hot weather and long sunny days. Warmer seas = more evaporation = more turbulence in the atmosphere = extreme weather. Ask yourself is this the norm?
    Here in the UK we have had several examples of extreme weather over the last couple of years but Hey! its just a wet year….
    Brian

  20. h.oldeboom says:

    Just returned from Austria (Vorarlberg in the west) to the Netherlands. Last year, as well this year, snowing started relatively early in November.

  21. Tor i: Heggelund says:

    It’s interesting to read that the snow is piling up in “the south”.
    We need some more here at 70 degrees north in Norway. We have so far got about an inch.
    Could someone please send us some snow ? :-)

  22. Patrick says:

    Here is a sunspot update, there are some charts that are updated through the end of November. Also a short comment about what the weather was like the last time there were so few sunspots (Cold).

    http://icecap.us/images/uploads/ssless_days.pdf

  23. mark says:

    i have to admit, as a skeptic, if i go to this site:

    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/records/index.php?ts=daily&elem=maxt&month=12&day=1&year=2008&submitted=Get+Records#recs

    and look for “highest max” temps verses “lowest min” temps….we are having tons more max records than min records. of course this is just for the US, but it is at least anecdotally interesting. any thoughts?

  24. Adam Gallon says:

    Right, I’m sulking!
    All this snow and we’re not going skiing this year (Poor, spare us a copper guv!)
    I was talking to one of my local, Lincolnshire, farmers. Neither of us can remember when we last had such cold weather this early in winter.
    Ther’ve been frosts virtually every morning for 2 weeks now.
    OK, so it’s “weather” and not “climate”, but it’ll be interesting to see how the UK’s temperatures for November & December compare to previous years.

  25. deadwood says:

    Alas, but we are still snowless here in the Pacific NW. Last year was a bumper year for snow. With no snow this year our “progressive” governor is hinting at deficit financing so the state can proceed with its green agenda.

  26. tarpon says:

    We are really cold in SWFL … It’s colder than it normally is in Feb. So far we don’t see any signs of glaciation, but it could come soon.

  27. JoeH says:

    JP – Data from AccuWeather show that temperatures in Chicago since 11/1 have been 1.9 degrees below normal and for the last 30 days it has been averaging 5 degrees below normal. I know, it’s just weather and not climate.

  28. Fred says:

    To be fair and balanced, it looks like Moscow set their all-time warmest reading for December:

    http://en.rian.ru/russia/20081206/118727610.html

  29. Novoburgo says:

    Latest weather from Pozan (10:00EST):
    EPPO 081500Z 26004KT 4000 BR BKN020 04/04 Q1020
    Seems fairly “normal.”

  30. stophotair says:

    You gotta be kidding. One month’s weather is a climate trend?
    This is as bad as climate science can get. You need not be a meteorolgist to know weather does not make climate.
    But gee! it’s been really warm in Russia…so we have global warming!
    Frankly this website is redundant, as AGW is an established fact that is widely supported by serious scientists.

    ~snip~

  31. Pamela Gray says:

    Snow in Wallowa County and up above Pendleton in the Blues. 11 inches so far at pass level. I drove 40 mph through “snowing hard and continuously” all the way from Minam to the Weston Hills (nearly 70 miles). Lots more above on the peaks. There is a prediction for snow in Pendleton this Friday night. That’s early for Pendleton, just like last year.

  32. Steven Hill says:

    Carbonkiss,

    Is the ocean warmer?

  33. Bishop Hill says:

    I can confirm that it’s freezing in Scotland. And my boiler is on the blink! Interesting about the ski runs opening – IIRC they stayed open later than they have done for years at the beginning of the year too.

  34. Bobby Lane says:

    I keep hearing from the AGW crowd that this year is exceptional, which is to say that it doesn’t matter in their eyes. They think the longer term trend is towards warming, which given the fact that we’re recovering slowly from the LIA does not surprise me and I do not disagree with it. Of course, they attribute the warming GHG and think it will go on indefinitely, despite the fact that CO2s warming effects are not linear but obey the law of diminishing returns. I suppose I am not doing anything more than rambling, but it just irritates me that so many people – who really by and large don’t care and just want to live their lives – are continually misinformed and unduly alarmed. I know none of this is anything new…still…it is aggravating.

  35. Bobby Lane says:

    Fred,

    They may still be using temperature data from a couple of months ago. Better check the numbers. Plus, December is not over yet. Maybe it was a warm one in Moscow, but even if those numbers are spot on, I doubt it stays that way.

  36. AKD says:

    stophotair,

    While I agree that anecdotal weather events do not make for global climate trends, I find this statement odd:

    “You need not be a meteorolgist [sic] to know weather does not make climate.”

    Is climate not the average of weather over time?

  37. Charles Garner says:

    Poznan, PO forecast for Thursday:
    Cold with periods of ice changing to snow. Winds from the SSW at 11 km/h.
    Low: -4 C

    Sounds nice if you are in front of a roaring fire.

  38. Smokey says:

    mark @06:34:52

    The UHI effect is underestimated by the noaa when they massage their data, as can be seen at the end of the note from their site:

    NOTE: These records are based on the historical daily observations archived in NCDC’s Cooperative Summary of the Day data set and preliminary reports from Cooperative Observers and First Order National Weather Service stations, and as such are subject to change.

  39. hunter says:

    stophotair,
    One particular weather event does not make climate, but climate is made up of weather.
    And the weather does not at all support the claims of looming climate apocalypse from the AGW community.

  40. mark says:

    ah! of course….make sense….

    the other day it was quite cold outside for us austinites (40 degrees?) and i was leaning against this wall which was painted black (yes black)….and it was WARM….as in 80 plus if i had to guess. it got me thinking about UHI effects.

  41. CodeTech says:

    woodfortrees:

    Yay! 30 years! Just a few more and they’ll finally have HALF the approximately 70 year cycle!

  42. Richard Hegarty says:

    Neville (00:20:56) :

    I wonder how the delicate little fantasists are faring in Poznan at the moment?
    Wouldn’t it be interesting if they experienced some really good cold weather with heavy falls of snow on their fantastic parade.”

    Reply: Its not that cold in Poland but if its a bit of irony you are after, the bbc reporter Richard Black could not attend because his flight was canceled due to guess what? climate change protesters.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/richardblack/
    “Runway protest strands passengers”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/essex/7771079.stm

  43. Bruce Cobb says:

    stophotair:
    AGW is an established fact that is widely supported by serious scientists.
    Errr, no, not really. In fact AGW is a failed hypothesis, propped up by bogus computer models, and supported by so-called scientists willing to do pseudo-science in order to keep grant money flowing, and their careers going. Add the politicians and the MSM who are on the bandwagon, and who are only too happy to keep the thing rolling along via their hype and propaganda, and voila. The whole thing is a house of cards which will eventually come crashing down, and is showing showing signs of it now.

    Show us where anyone said one month’s weather is a climate trend. Or, prove that you’re just another AGW troll, and run along back to your troll cave.

  44. future skiing says:

    Weather events may not be climate, but they do serve a purpose in forcing people to look at reality, not models. I have a friend on the IOC who genuinely felt that Austria was a poor candidate for the Winter Olympics because there will not be snow there much longer. I am please to see the big dump and transportation issues in Davos, because this person is travelling there this week.

  45. Jonathon says:

    When will the AGW crowd quit fraudulently spewing the lie that carbon dioxide is an air pollutant when in fact it is fertilizer for plants, it is non toxic, it is a requirement of all plant photosynthesis; that without it all plant life dies and it follows of course that all animal life too subsequently dies? This lie, perpetuated by the Al Gores of the world, has absolutely no truth to it.
    Unfortunately they have succeeded in brain washing a whole generation of our youth that CO2 is a terrible, toxic gas that is making our planet warmer when the evidence is growing that it is a very minor GHG and has little or no green house gas effect.

  46. John S. says:

    I’m tempted to agree that “weather does not make climate.” It’s unproven climate models and baseless data ajustments that make up what some call “climate. “

  47. Leon Brozyna says:

    A fine antidote to all the everything-is-melting stories.

    Here in Western NY the ski resorts opened about a week early after receiving several feet of lake effect snow — and it keeps on snowing, at least in the higher terrain. And they haven’t had to crank up the snow making machinery.

  48. Ellie in Belfast says:

    I’m dreaming of a cold winter,
    just like the ones we used to know…..

    Maybe that PDO shift is taking us back to the 70’s – this is more like winters i remember from my teens.

  49. Richard Sharpe says:

    Fred said:

    To be fair and balanced, it looks like Moscow set their all-time warmest reading for December:

    http://en.rian.ru/russia/20081206/118727610.html

    And were those readings taken with thermometers that were affected by UHI?

  50. Bruce Cobb says:

    carbonkiss:
    If this snow was falling as rain would we be so enthusiastic?
    No, silly – you couldn’t ski then, could you?

    What will result if it melts too fast?
    Why would it? Global warming? Even if it did, and some flooding occurred, what would that prove?

    Many people still suffer from the delusion that global warming will result in hot weather and long sunny days.
    Many people (like you, apparently) still suffer from the delusion that the entirely normal global warming of about 1C last century is not only alarming, but man-made as well. Alarmists want people to believe that global warming aka climate change will cause every kind of “extreme weather” imaginable, from droughts to floods, from extreme heat to extreme cold, from ice melting to ice forming, and from heavy snow to a dearth of snow. Sorry, not buying it.

    Warmer seas = more evaporation = more turbulence in the atmosphere = extreme weather. Ask yourself is this the norm?
    You seem to believe that warmth (which we aren’t responsible for) is bad, and causes weather to be “extreme”. Sorry, wrong on both counts. The modern warm period, coming out of the LIA has been a boon to mankind, and to the planet, as has been the rise in C02 (most of that due to outgassing). There is no evidence our weather is more extreme now than in the past. In fact, it is cooling which leads to more weather extremes.

  51. M White says:

    “I’m not sure what the European forecasts are for this winter,”

    http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/seasonal/winter2008_9/

    “Winter temperatures are more likely to be above 1971-2000 averages over northern Europe and parts of southern and eastern Europe. However, over northern Europe, this winter is likely to be less mild than last winter. In other regions the chances for above or below average are evenly balanced.

    For the winter as a whole, UK mean temperatures are more likely to be near or above average. However, we are likely to have a cold start to the winter with temperatures below average in December.”

    The earlier forecasts made no mention of a “cold start” in the UK that has come after the fact.

  52. Roy says:

    My associate in the office spent the second straight weekend in Bavaria at a ski resort. This guy has been a ski-junkie for a dozen years here in Europe….and he says the snow is more than he has ever seen this early in the season. Almost everyday, there is fresh snow coming in. The use of the artificial snow machines? None! The sloop guys are admitting that they are shocked at the current trend and wonder just how long this will last. It’ll be an all-time record on profit….if the trends holds.

  53. Booger Yanker says:

    So much for warm European weather!

    Booger Yanker

  54. Mike McMillan says:

    No snow in Houston, yet. Sorry.

  55. An Inquirer says:

    mark (06:34:52)

    Regarding # of new daily max vs. # of new daily min, your link led to a one day examination — December 1 — and one day could be easily be influenced by weather patterns that day. I look at the whole month of October 2008 and found more than four new minimum temperatures for every three new maximums. Also, IF the national climate is largely driven by the PDO, we have not remotely returned to the depths of the PDO that we had in the 60s & 70s; therefore, we would expect many more new maximums rather than new minimums at this phase of the oscillation. A final note: the maximum annual temperature records reached at rural stations have stood for many decades. And that is even more surprising when one notes that new thermometers have been placed in locations where higher temperature readings would be expected.

  56. Jeff Alberts says:

    Yay! 30 years! Just a few more and they’ll finally have HALF the approximately 70 year cycle!

    And still not have a nearly long enough period.

  57. Jeff Id says:

    Anecdotal evidence can only be accepted when it supports global warming.

    Remember the “serious scientists” who reported on polar bears that needed water wings in august. Headlines that said Sea Ice Melting Faster than Ever. That was a clear sign of global warming.

    Now that sea ice extent has exceeded the last several years and the media somehow missed the fastest expansion of sea ice in history, it becomes unscientific evidence presented by denialists with little understanding of climatology.

    I just read a report where they said arctic warming was a local phenomena by a weather pattern change so therefore indicative of global warming. Talk about having your cake and eating it too. These guys have no shame.

    The sun came up, I blame that.

  58. Alec, a.k.a Daffy Duck says:

    December 8, 2008 (OWSweather.com)

    Rare 50 year Arctic Blast Sets Sights On Southern California.

    We are in a pre-1950 type pattern, “said Martin. “We know we are due for a winter storm sometime this year. The type we may be dealing with will be ranked up there with the known years before 1950, which set record low daytime temperatures into the forecast region. With this, may come low elevation snow.” …
    http://www.owsweather.com/pr120808a.html

  59. Paul Shanahan says:

    Richard Hegarty (08:29:22) :
    Its not that cold in Poland but if its a bit of irony you are after, the bbc reporter Richard Black could not attend because his flight was canceled due to guess what? climate change protesters.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/richardblack/
    “Runway protest strands passengers”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/essex/7771079.stm

    I saw that on the news. Looking at the “Have Your Say” section on the BBC News website, the protesters Plain Stupid… sorry… Plane Stupid have successfully managed to alienate themselves with the British public.

    Plain idiots!

  60. Wondering Aloud says:

    Yes we have a mild winter forcast for the midwest from NOAA. It looks like if we break 20 C every day from now until the new year we can get the average back up to normal so they won’t look clueless. Forcast for the week; -15 C and snow, I think that NOAA prediction is in trouble.

    So far it looks like a La Nina year where the big snow events track pretty far south, and Chicago gets blasted. Which is fine if you really like to see bad driving exhibitions, or really don’t like Chicago.

    Am I wrong on that Anthony? Do storm tracks tend farther south in La Nina years?

    On the idea of more warm records being set than cold, setting aside bad site bias issues that I think are now beyond question. I note that much of the upper midwest set all time snow fall records during the winter of 2007 and 2008. Though those may fall again this year. Anecdotal it may be, but it sure is a pretty bad indication of warming.

  61. Ed Darrell says:

    Isn’t the lake effect heightened by warmer air?

  62. Graeme Rodaughan says:

    “However the snow is causing practical problems for both locals and those wanting to reach the snow with almost every pass in to the Dolomites closed on Monday and many villages without electricity.”

    Gahhhh. Catastrophic Climate Change leaves Villagers in Freezing Cold – BAN CO2!!!!

    On a more serious note has anyone noticed the following structural parallel.

    1. CAP and Trade. Anyone who can afford to, can emit as much CO2 as they can afford to offset.

    2. HYPOTHETICAL: Murder and Bloodmoney PayOff. Anyone who can afford to can murder anyone as long as they can afford to payoff a bloodprice. What if there was a law that allowed the wealthy to murder with impunity provided that they could pay a $$$ price to get away with it. Would murder by the wealthy become common place?

    The Points I’m making are as follows.

    1. The moral structure of CAP and Trade and paying a blood price to escape the consequences of murder are equivalent.

    2. That CAP and Trade would allow for the untrammelled increase in CO2 emissions by those who are wealthy enough to afford them.

    What has been the impact of the KYOTO Protocol on the CO2 emissions of the signatory countries and how much money was raised? CO2 emissions have gone up and Billions of $ have been “generated” (siphoned off the general economy).

    It seems to me that any future CAP and Trade will simply encourage CO2 emissions while producing and increasing supply of $$$ for the CAP and traders, and as the $$$ increase so will the need (demand) to increase CO2 emissions to keep the $$$ flowing.

    For anyone in the AGW camp who genuinely believes that human emissions of CO2 are the bane of the planet and must be reduced to save civilization I don’t see how they can maintain a moral stand in favour of CAP and Trade.

    Even the True AGW Believer (James Hansen) has noted (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article5257602.ece) that CAP and Trade wont work to suppress CO2 emissions.

    And CAP and Trade is beginning to get the artistic “criticism” here at http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/protesting_against_gassy_greens/ where someone is pointing out the inherent hypocrisy.

    Of course, I see no evidence for man made emissions of CO2 leading to catastrophic warming. However I would like to suggest that the AGW Proponents who read this blog have a moral problem if they both believe that CO2 is “Bad” and that CAP and Trade id “Good.”

  63. Michael Hauber says:

    Another weather anecdote for the pile:

    Brisbane Australia has been warm of late but not in a particularly noteworthy way.

  64. Graeme Rodaughan says:

    @Wondering Aloud (13:30:23) :

    What’s going to be hard to reconcile will be the following reports side by side. (Likely this NH Winter)

    “Record snow storms, snow falls, etc…” (Based on observable, demonstrable facts)

    “GISS – Hottest December on record…” (Based on Massaged data)

    The Cognitive Dissonance (CD) will become more extreme and promote more extreme behaviour on those who suffer CD re http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/essex/7771079.stm

    Frankly – how long before this devolves into violence and people start getting hurt by the AGW extremists?

  65. Leon Brozyna says:

    Ed Darrell (14:55:03)

    Here in Western NY we’re quite familiar with lake effect.

    During summer months as hot humid air moves over Lake Erie, the cooler lake waters tend to dampen thunderstorm activity, an action that’s frequently overlooked when considering the more famous aspect of lake effect precipitation during early winter months.

    From November through January, as cold air moves over the still unfrozen lake it picks up water from the lake and deposits it as snow in the region, many times to depths measured in feet. {There’s also lake effect rain when cold, but above freezing, air moves across the warmer lake waters, but there’s only a brief window of opportunity for that to happen before the real event starts.} Exactly where in the region all that snow falls depends on wind direction. Famous Buffalo snowfalls have resulted from cold SW winds traveling the length of Lake Erie and dumping all that snow on the city. Most times, with W winds, snow falls happen well south of the city in an area referred to as the snow belt. During the latter part of the winter, as the lake freezes, lake effect precip diminishes. When the lake completely freezes over near the end of the winter the only snow the region experiences are from actual storm systems.

    In short, during summer, lake effect dampens warmer air precip {rain} and during the winter it heightens cold air precip {snow}.

  66. mark says:

    An Inquirer, thanks, you make some good points, particularly the one about the PDO…..

  67. Mike says:

    I swear I had read that Switzerland basically had given up on skiing due to no snow. Now, this may have been a few years ago but people were blaming global warming. The planet truly is beyond our comprehension.

  68. CG Oates says:

    I wish we’d get some of that snow up in Washington, but definitely not too much! It’s just not December without snow, at least not for me

  69. Les Johnson says:

    Is Al Gore in my neck of the woods? Its -20 deg C, and with the windchill its -30.

    And this weekend, its supposed to get COLD.

  70. E.M.Smith says:

    From chemist Peter (02:35:05) :
    Relax, it is only but weather. No trend here, move on, the world is warming.
    -end quote

    Hahaha HOHoho… Boy, you sure got me rolling with that one… but didn’t Leif say you ought to mark sarcasm?

  71. E.M.Smith says:

    From JP (04:40:40) :
    In Northern Indiana we’ve seen enough cold and snow this autumn .
    -end quote

    (Emphasis added…) Just wait until winter gets here ;-)

  72. E.M.Smith says:

    ROFLMAO… WHO added the snowflake effect to the page? Now I’ve got another shirt to wash (Resolved, never to drink while reading web pages again ;-)

    Whoever it is, I own you a beer (or three)…

  73. Pamela Gray says:

    So CG, you’re the one. You wished for snow in our general neck of the woods. Gee. Thanks.

  74. Ric Werme says:

    Leon Brozyna (16:08:29) :

    Ed Darrell (14:55:03)

    Here in Western NY we’re quite familiar with lake effect.

    From November through January, as cold air moves over the still unfrozen lake it picks up water from the lake and deposits it as snow in the region, many times to depths measured in feet.

    It’s important to note that the terrain slopes up from the lake shore. Duh? Yeah, but a couple of figures – Lake Erie is some 576 feet above sea level, Little Mountain (east of Cleveland) tops out at 1266 feet. (40 year old memories, the planet may have settled since then.) I was just looking at a western NY ski area of sorts this morning, it topped out around 2000 feet I think.

    Sometimes the lake effect precip is just rain or nothing right by the lake and rapidly increases as you get away from it.

  75. E.M.Smith says:

    From E.M.Smith (19:38:27) :
    Whoever it is, I own you a beer (or three)…
    -end quote

    That was supposed to be “OWE” you a beer… Hard to type well when laughing and trying to change shirts…

  76. SteveSadlov says:

    Gonna get me some of that. Literally. I picked a great season to head over there! On your right! …. on your left! … getting airrrrrrrrrrrr ….. swoooooosh.

    Sweet!

  77. Ric Werme says:

    Okay, why is it snowing on my browser window? Rather round snowflakes, more like snow pellets (graupel or “soft hail”). Images like http://wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/plugins/snow/images/0.gif are piling up.
    Cute, but don’t leave for too long.

  78. Austin says:

    The OWS guys say it will be 81 below in SIberia this week.

    Is that cold or what?

    Do they still show Siberia warmer than normal?

  79. AndyW says:

    The snow means there is more H20, it does not mean it is colder.

    Anyway, whats the current weather got to do with climate trends? :p

  80. November had similar anecdotal/unusual cold spells reported all over the media yet no sign of it in the MSU records. So what are we trying to prove here? That the weather is unpredictable?

    There is always somewhere in the world a weather related record of some kind. In the past the media jumped on unusual warm records. Now that we have been saturated with that, the media are keen to report the opposite.

    Watch my words, soon AGW skepticism will become in vogue in the MSM (and rightly so, I may add)

  81. Bruce Cobb says:

    soon AGW skepticism will become in vogue in the MSM (and rightly so, I may add)
    I’d like to think so, but more likely, the explanation for it, when given, will be that it’s due to climate change, or “climate chaos” caused by (whate else) man’s evil burning of fossil fuels. The MSM have failed in their mission to report the news, giving us alarmist drivel and AGW propaganda instead. Sadly enough, the days of investigative reporting of the likes of Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward are long gone.

  82. Jeff Alberts says:

    AndyW (23:20:01) :

    The snow means there is more H20, it does not mean it is colder.

    The fact that it’s snow when it might “normally” have been rain means it’s cold enough at ground level for the H2O to remain frozen. So yeah, it’s probably colder, or it could be that there is more precip this year than other recent years.

  83. Bill P says:

    Sadly enough, the days of investigative reporting of the likes of Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward are long gone.

    Don’t tell this to “Deep Climate” and “Follow the Money”.

  84. Bill P says:

    Shovelled out this morning in suburbs of Denver. About 4″. Just getting my back into the Christmas spirit.

  85. Unfortunately the snow is melting after it hits the bottom of the screen. Anthony, could you please arrange the snow to accumulate (I suppose you just turn the thermostat down) so that my screen gets all white if I stay long enough at WUWT?
    On a more serious note: On Safari it falls from left to right. On Firefox from right to left. Is this the unpredictability of weather?

  86. philincalifornia says:

    I think we can safely say now that this will be the eighth-hottest year of the millennium

  87. marcus says:

    Now is snowing again in Tourin (Italy). This is the 4th snowfall in last 15 days. I never saw it before.
    On next 5 days, Dolomites and Alpi will taste others 50-100 cm of fantastic snow!
    W Global Warming!!

  88. Tim L says:

    here is a link so no one will think i am making up stories LOL
    http://www.record-eagle.com/opinion/local_story_344084133.html?keyword=topstory

    (Rare 50 year Arctic Blast Sets Sights On Southern California.

    We are in a pre-1950 type pattern, “said Martin. “We know we are due for a winter storm sometime this year. The type we may be dealing with will be ranked up there with the known years before 1950, which set record low daytime temperatures into the forecast region. With this, may come low elevation snow.” …)
    http://www.owsweather.com/pr120808a.html
    WELL THERE GOES THE PRICE OF PRODUCE!!!!! and fruit too dang. back to eating rabbit.
    DOH!!!

  89. Tim L says:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/dec/09/poznan-copenhagen-global-warming-targets-climate-change
    (Only an unprecedented “planned economic recession” might be enough. The current financial woes would not come close.)
    (separate study published this year showed the ability of forests to soak up anthropogenic carbon dioxide – that caused by human activity – was weakening, because the changing length of the seasons alters the time when trees switch from being a sink of carbon to a source.)
    Because it is cooling!
    Leif Svalgaard “the 10 toes are made of clay and iron”
    explains much

  90. AndyW says:

    Jeff Alberts (07:37:29) :

    The fact that it’s snow when it might “normally” have been rain means it’s cold enough at ground level for the H2O to remain frozen. So yeah, it’s probably colder, or it could be that there is more precip this year than other recent years.

    Snowfall does not equate to it being colder, you cannot determine the temperature from the amount of snowfall, ie more snow must mean lower temps.

    Snow melt is dependent on temp, but then you have to take into effect ground temperature as well as air, hence why you often get snow staying for longer in the UK in Jan onwards when the ground has had time to properly cool over time to a depth.

    Regards

    Andy

  91. Bruce Cobb says:

    Snowfall does not equate to it being colder, you cannot determine the temperature from the amount of snowfall, ie more snow must mean lower temps.
    So then, lack of snowfall doesn’t equate to it being warmer?
    But, according to AGW ideology, lack of snow is, in fact, one of the consequences of global warming. Here in New Hampshire, the ski industry is always mentioned as being “under threat” from global warming, and is one of the reasons our own mini-governator signed on to RGGI, the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative. Last year, with close to record-breaking snowfall, the ski industry had a banner season. Ohhh, they say, but that was just a “natural variation”. Nothing disproves AGW/CC. It is indeed a quasi-religion based on pseudo-science. The cap-and-trade fraud is now here, in the “Live free or die” state.

  92. Ed Darrell says:

    Warming messes up the weather. Where there is a huge body of water that can be used to create a lake effect, the windward land will get dramatically more snowfall, if global warming is to blame. At the same time, some areas where there are no lakes or oceans will get dramatically less snow, also as a result of climate change.

    When both of these effects obtain, the warming is dramatic. Deniers don’t want to admit that global warming can also mean more snow, in a few places.

  93. rutger says:

    Another big dump in the Alps!! the 5th actually since november.
    http://picasaweb.google.de/minapascalsabineandi/SchneefLleDezember2008#5278440946019421170

    lokally over 1.5 m fresh snow, and more to come!

    best skiopening in many, many , many years
    temperatures have been normal during fall in north west and middel europe, and are now somewhat cooler dan normal.

    in zwitserland and italy there is on average more than 300% more snow than normal.. ..
    http://www.slf.ch/lawineninfo/schneeinfo/hsm/index_DE

    ive been skiing in the alps for 25 years and been a skiinstructor for 8 but never was there so much snow before X-mas.
    ..

  94. E.M.Smith says:

    from Ed Darrell (15:03:02) :
    Deniers don’t want to admit that global warming can also mean more snow, in a few places.
    -end quote

    “Deniers”? Alert Alert!!! The use of “deniers” flags you as, um, less than objective… Try ‘skeptic’, it’s more accurate and won’t get you flagged.

    And your ‘few places’ now includes: Antarctica, Australia, New Zealand, South America up to southern Brazil (yes, snow in Brazil!), South Africa, China, Mongolia, Middle East (including the snow in Iran and Israel a while back), Europe, Alaska, the middle of the U.S. and heading into the North East. Oh, and some of the U.S. southeast and parts of Canada. As soon as Russia catches up it will be darned near a clean sweep. Oh, and some of the U.S. west got dumped on pretty good too, though California tends to cold drought rather than precipitation.

    Google “2008 record cold snow” and become enlightened. We are in the very early stages of a weather / climate inflection to the cold side.

    It is very funny to watch the AGW advocates try to explain that cold is warm.

  95. Rhys Jaggar says:

    [Mike (17:11:33) :

    I swear I had read that Switzerland basically had given up on skiing due to no snow. Now, this may have been a few years ago but people were blaming global warming. The planet truly is beyond our comprehension.]

    I’ve skied Europe pretty much every year since 1980.

    My experiences:

    1980 – 1982: cold and lots of early snow. Like now in fact.

    1983: very mild autumn and first snow just before Christmas. Poor snow in the valleys most of the winter. Reasonable snow based on blizzards in January and early February. Little from then on until Easter.

    1984 – 1988: cold but little snow early – increasing snow coming from January on into the spring. Famously cold Christmas/New Year in 1984/5. Bus driver had to put antifreeze INSIDE THE PETROL TANK TO STOP FUEL SOLIDFYING!

    1988 – 1990: two famous years where the Alps were covered by high pressure for two months and more – really poor snow until late in the season. Exceptional blizzards in February 1990 – up to 3.5m in one week with resorts evacuated.

    1991 – 1995: pretty standard early snow – 1990/91 and 1992/3 exceptional early snow, other years good snow January to make the season.

    1996 – 2002: Sketchy early snow leading to thin coverage later in the season. Exceptional blizzards in February 1999 – two weeks continuous snowfall with many avalanche-related deaths.

    2003 – 2007: mild but some years had good snow in January, notably 2004. Superb snow and cold late February 2005. 2007 particularly mild and poor.

    2008: exceptionally good early snow – widespread cover early November.

    2008/9: exceptionally good early snow: first major fall end of October, late November widespread snow to low levels now being topped up.

    This is anecdotal. But it’d be interesting to go back through the records to see what snowfall patterns were in other sunspot minimum years in Europe.

  96. Bruce Cobb says:

    Ed Darrell:
    Warming messes up the weather.
    Care to expound a bit more on this Ed? What about cooling – wouldn’t that “mess up the weather” too?
    If the weather is “messed up”, then does that mean no matter what weather we have it proves global warming. If nothing disproves global warming (man-made, of course), wouldn’t that make it more a religion than science?
    Just asking. We “deniers” are a curious bunch.

  97. Ed Darrell says:

    Of course cooling would mess up the weather, Bruce. The temperatures have been going up, however, not down. When that happens, it’s called “warming.” (Who was it complained about the “deniers” tag? Do we really have to get more explicit?)

    Google “2008 record cold snow” and become enlightened. We are in the very early stages of a weather / climate inflection to the cold side.

    Google “climate change,” and you’ll discover that warming produces such disruptions in the weather (there’s a difference between climate and weather, but it’s often too subtle for people with a denialist lens in their eye to see).

    We have more snow. We don’t have a change in the trend to warming of the climate. Don’t confuse the two. In climate change, highs will be higher, lows will be lower, dramatic weather events more dramatic.

    Just before the Titanic slipped under the water, the stern rose high out of the water. A few sinking denialists claimed that meant the emergency was over. “See? All those people are higher out of the water now than they were a few minutes ago.”

  98. Smokey says:

    Ed Darrell (04:08:35) :

    The temperatures have been going up, however, not down.

    Citation, please?

    While you’re looking for one, see here and here.

  99. Bruce Cobb says:

    Thank you Ed, you proved my point that nothing disproves AGW/CC, meaning it is really more of a religion than science. You are not the slightest bit interested in the facts, preferring to view reality through your AGW alarmist lens. Sad, very sad.

  100. Ed Darrell says:

    A stop to warming would disprove climate change — or more specifically, a stop to climate change. My complaint on the skeptics all along has been that they aren’t looking at the whole picture, and so , as you, Bruce, you deny the obvious.

    For example, for the past 30 years at least, the Department of Agriculture has had to constantly update the maps of planting zones because of warming. Now, Anthony Watts can complain that warming is an illusion caused by misplacement of weather stations, but until you convince me that pine trees, grasses and palm trees are moving north because they mistakenly trusted the weather station reports, I think it’s rather obvious that warming is an issue, it’s gone on for a long time, and it continues.

    Show me the planting zone where tropical plants are NOT moving north (or south, on the other side of the equator), and you’ll make step toward convincing me that warming isn’t going on.

    Or, show me the glaciers that are expanding from something other than lake effect snow. There is just a tiny handful of expanding glaciers, but worldwide, most are shrinking at dramatic rates that speak of warming. Glaciers also don’t listen to reports from misplaced weather stations, so it’s doubtful that they’ve been influenced by bad data.

    Real evidence against global warming would be readily accepted. Complaints that every scientist who measures climate has got it wrong for the past 150 years just don’t make it with me.

  101. Smokey says:

    Ed Darrell:

    Since you claim you can see ‘the whole picture’, could you please provide some legit citations for your statement:

    …for the past 30 years at least, the Department of Agriculture has had to constantly update the maps of planting zones because of warming.

    And please have that cite include the ‘at least’. As in: at least from the beginning of the Agriculture department. Because, you know, picking 30 years is like picking cherries, you only select the ones you want.

    I’d like to see those Dep’t of Ag maps you have going back way more than 30 years, and showing the U.S. crop line marching inexorably northward. Be sure to include the most recent ones, too, since your claim is that global warming is continuing.

    And:

    There is just a tiny handful of expanding glaciers, but worldwide, most are shrinking at dramatic rates that speak of warming.

    A citation would be helpful here, too. Show us that there is only a ‘tiny’ number of glaciers expanding. While you’re looking for credible citations, would you please explain what makes glaciers advance and recede? [hint: it's precipitation, not global warming or cooling].

    Somehow I don’t feel confident that we’ll see your citations, Ed. I could be mistaken. But you never provided the citation requested in my 04:36:44 post above.

  102. Richard Sharpe says:

    Ed Darrell says:

    A stop to warming would disprove climate change — or more specifically, a stop to climate change.

    Hmmm, I am confused here. There is no way to stop climate change. It has been changing in a cyclic fashion for a very long time, and it is likely that any cyclic behavior is superimposed on a gradual rise resulting from the fact that we came out of a big ice age some time ago.

    Also, you seem to be confused. A stop to warming would not disprove climate change. Please also provide a theory of climate stability.

  103. E.M.Smith says:

    Ed Darrell (15:24:38) :
    For example, for the past 30 years at least, the Department of Agriculture has had to constantly update the maps of planting zones because of warming.

    Show me these maps, please. I’ve been alive and active in farming and gardening over those years and don’t remember seeing a lot of revising going on. My “Sunset Garden Book”(s) that have finer grained planting maps that the USDA show no change… (And yes, I have them from a 30+yr span)

    until you convince me that pine trees, grasses and palm trees are moving north because they mistakenly trusted the weather station reports, I think it’s rather obvious that warming is an issue, it’s gone on for a long time, and it continues.

    Again, a citation please. When I was a kid Oranges had a northern limit from cold. They still have the same limit. 10 miles north of where I grew up. Nothing has changed. My maps of the “northern limit of palms” shows no change. I see no new palm forests growing north of where they were before. I can still just barely get Saint Augustine grass to grow because it’s too cold for it. So show me the evidence that what you claim is happening really is happening…

    BTW, this recent blizzard is sure going to crimp your style on showing any northern progress for palms … any that were alive above the northern limit will not be now.

    Show me the planting zone where tropical plants are NOT moving north (or south, on the other side of the equator), and you’ll make step toward convincing me that warming isn’t going on.

    Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. You made the claim that something different is happening, you have to provide the evidence. I have no need to “prove a negative”.

    But just because I’m a good sport, try Sunset Garden zones 15 & 16. I live in it. Still can’t get cotton to grow worth a damn. Still can’t get Saint Augustine to stop sulking. Still have dormant Burmuda Grass in winter. Still have limited selection of fruits I can grow. Still can’t grow a banana tree (that DOES grow just a few hundred miles south of me…) AND still grow decent cherries and peaches that MUST HAVE enough winter chill to set fruit. This set means summers have not warmed and neither have winters.

    And please don’t bother trying to complain about Sunset vs USDA. The Sunset zones are far more fine grained than the USDA and would show any changes far faster than the USDA zones.

    Ed, you have so far provided NO evidence or citations. If you expect folks to interact with you for long you will need to provide some evidence, not just hand waving.

  104. Graeme Rodaughan says:

    testing bold on older post

  105. Mike Bryant says:

    Here are some plant hardiness zone maps… they don’t change often and last change belies global warming.

    http://www.iceagenow.com/PlantHardinessMaps.htm

  106. Ed Darrell says:

    Here’s a post on two parts of the non-human measure of climate change, the changing plant zones and earlier springs, and warming in Yellowstone. With links:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/plants-refuse-to-listen-to-climate-change-skeptics/

    I think this is the current USDA map, from the National Arboretum — it’s based on the 1990 USDA update:
    http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/ushzmap.html

    The American Horticulture Society has a grant to update the USDA maps; here’s a story on that process:
    http://gardening.about.com/od/gardenprimer/a/Zone_Changes.htm

    That’s three links, which probably push the spam filter limits on the blog.

  107. Ed Darrell says:

    Here’s a news story from the San Francisco Chronicle group, via Geology.com, which says the AHS update was scotched by USDA — it showed too much change (suppression of reports of climate change?). So the University of Oregon is working on the thing now.
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/29/HO9G11TRQE.DTL

    Good and bad news from melting glaciers and decreasing sea ice in and around Greenland:
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html

    How climate change contributes to disaster in Darfur:
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0727/p01s04-woaf.html

  108. Ed Darrell says:

    Here’s a history of the USDA maps and their changes:
    http://www.centralfloridagarden.com/topics/hardiness/history.html

    Here’s a note from the University of Wyoming on shrinking glaciers worldwide:
    http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap10/nzglacier.html

  109. Smokey says:

    Sorry, Ed, but your links are a joke.

    Forgive me if I don’t buy into the pronouncements of the “Society of Environmental Journalists.” A couple of selected counties in Florida do not mean anything at all with regard to planetary climate change. You can always find specific locations that vary from the mean.

    And your link to “Shrinking glaciers worldwide” is also risible. The date on the link is January 1999. See here for what has transpired since.

    Is that the best you can do?

  110. Ed Darrell says:

    Sorry, Smokey. Your absence of any other data doesn’t cut it. If you have contrary data, bring ‘em on. I presented every county in the U.S. Especially, when I give you the citations clearly saying the glaciers are going, your chart which says nothing about glaciers, snowfall, nor glacier melt, don’t offer much in rebuttal. If glaciers are growing, as you claim, surely there would be at least a news story about it, if only in a political journal. You’ve got nothing at all?

    The Sunset maps are good, I agree, E. M. Smith. Of course, they show warming, compared to the Ag maps. No, you wouldn’t have much change since the latest edition of the Sunset maps. But if you compare them to the 1990 USDA maps, you see the changes. There are differences between the Sunset and AHS maps, too — but nothing in the Sunset stuff suggests any problem with AHS’s conclusions that plants formerly hardy in many cities, no longer are, and that there is definite northward creep in plant zones.

    Especially, nothing refutes the annual march of springtime. It’s not shown on the hardiness maps, but it’s still there.

  111. Smokey says:

    Ed Darrell:

    It is not the job of skeptics, or their duty, to prove that the climate is not well within its normal historical parameters.

    It is the duty of climate alarmists who hypothesize runaway global warming and climate catastrophe, as a result of AGW, to prove their case. They have failed to do so.

    I am willing to debate AGW, but you must submit something more credible than 1990 data, or an unfounded opinion from the Society of Environmental Journalists. I know you probably believe they are credible and even-handed. But they are not. They have an agenda, as we can see from the name of their organization.

    If you can not provide timely peer-reviewed data that states [as you have stated] that only a “tiny” number of glaciers are advancing, then your AGW/CO2/catastrophe hypothesis fails. Doesn’t it? Because the climate alarmist contingent has the obligation, per the scientific method, to prove that we’re headed for runaway global warming as a result of an extremely small addition of CO2 to the atmosphere. Serious proof of that conjecture would be much appreciated.

  112. Ed Darrell says:

    Here’s a map that shows only the changes in hardiness zones, between the 1990 USDA map and 2006 data:
    http://www.arborday.org/media/map_change.cfm

  113. Ed Darrell says:

    You reject all peer-reviewed data, Smokey. Why would you accept it now — especially considering that you’ve offered nothing in rebuttal?

    Is my statement in error? Show us the data. Got no data? That’s what I thought.

  114. Richard Hegarty says:

    ScienceDaily (Dec. 16, 2008) — Rocky Mountain ski areas face dramatic changes this century as the climate warms, including best-case scenarios of shortened ski seasons and higher snowlines and worst-case scenarios of bare base areas and winter rains, says a new Colorado study
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081215121632.htm

  115. Smokey says:

    Here you go, Ed: click

    And I don’t reject peer reviewed data. I had asked you for more timely peer reviewed data, rather than your 1990 article. You could look it up @3:52:06^

    The fact is that glaciers are fed by precipitation. A 0.6 degree C change in global temps isn’t going to make glaciers melt.

  116. Ed Darrell says:

    Europe’s biggest glacier melting at accelerating clip, October 2008 report:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7650000/newsid_7655900/7655928.stm

    Switzerland’s glaciers are shrunken by two-thirds, and experts say almost all mountainous, non-polar glaciers are shrinking:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/geography/glaciation/glaciersrev4.shtml

    Almost all European glaciers are shrinking faster than had been expected:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7299561.stm

  117. Ed Darrell says:

    Antarctic glaciers surge to ocean:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7261171.stm
    (this one could be melting from other forces)

    Chacaltaya (in Bolivia) has lost 80% of its area in last two decades:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6496429.stm

    Rapid decline of Alpine glaciers observed with satellite data, Geophysical Research Letters, 2004:
    http://66.102.1.104/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=cache:5CH9G0de9H4J:folk.uio.no/kaeaeb/publications/grl04_paul.pdf+

  118. Ed Darrell says:

    I don’t have good access to the science journals, but from the searches I can do here, I have not found anything that suggests there is significant glacier growth on any large glacier anywhere. You guys have some different citations?

    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119079325/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

  119. Smokey says:

    OK, Ed, you win. I’m not going to spoil your glacier fun by posting on this particular thread again. You get the last word after this post.

    The BBC’s opinion, however, is incredible. As in: not credible. And that link on Alpine glaciers only reports on a specific, localized area, not on global anything, which makes it a weather report. And it is from 2004 — meaning that the data was probably taken from the preceding decade, when temps were temporarily rising. Now, temperatures are falling, big time. That fact outdates your cite, no?

    And Ed, you didn’t read the link I posted @09:44:28, did you? The information that glaciers advance and recede is primarily dependent on precipitation seemed to go right over your head too. That’s unfortunate, because precipitation is the cause of glaciers’ advance and retreat, not the silly, repeatedly falsified AGW hypothesis.

    But that’s OK, you have your glaciers, and if their putative recession makes you happy, then I’m happy for you.

    It’s got nothing to do with AGW, though.

  120. Ed Darrell says:

    Smokey, I posted peer reviewed studies saying glaciers are retreating across the planet, probably due to human activity-caused global warming. I posted numerous news reports from the distinguished and award-winning science reporters at BBC citing studies that specifically listed dozens of places on Earth that is so. You’ve posted not a single report contrary, not even from the National Enquirer or Newsmax.

    In contrast to your failure to cite anything, BBC’s conversations with scientists strike me as quite credible. Those reports would be legal in a court of law. They’re based on good research. Your opinion is pretty low, I admit, but I have nothing to suggest your opinion is better than any reporter anywhere. I regret I don’t know your science chops, but there you have it.

    Of course glaciers advance and retreat on the basis of precipitation. Seasonally, there should be both advances and retreats; in some periods, glaciers should advance or retreat for a decade or so at a time. The reports I listed indicate glacier decline is a century-long trend in most cases. You’ve offered nothing in rebuttal.

    So, since this is a century-long decline, which the science reports say are not the seasonal advances you offered, is there a reason I should have accepted your note as something more than it was?

    I regret your joy at glacial decline. I wish you had evidence that would offer a glimmer of rebuttal to the claim that it’s human-caused activities that is causing the decline. Maybe someone with more information than you have will offer such a report.

  121. Ben Thompson says:

    Interesting article. I found some more information here

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