Battery Storage for Grid Backup: Better Keep Working on It

From THE MANHATTAN CONTRARIAN

Francis Menton

Advocates of generating electricity mostly with intermittent wind and sun, when challenged on how they would deal with a calm night, are always ready with the obvious answer: energy storage. Just get some batteries, store up excess power from the windy mid-days, discharge as needed, and everything will work out.

Unfortunately, the advocates never acknowledge that the problem of making an electrical grid work 24/7/365 with mostly wind and solar generation is much more difficult than just storing power from the day to discharge that night. Both wind and sun are subject to regular “droughts,” just like rain. There can be many consecutive days, or even weeks, of combined low wind and sun; let alone the entire winter has a lack of sun, and both summer and winter have less wind than spring and fall. Calculating how much energy storage will suffice to get through even a year of average wind/sun variability is a straightforward exercise, yielding an answer of as much as 1000 hours of average consumption. Meanwhile, naive politicians (those in New York being Exhibit A) regularly get duped into buying a few hours or tens of hours worth of batteries for grid backup, spending billions of dollars on amounts of storage that will be almost useless for backing up a primarily wind/sun grid.

I first wrote about this subject way back in 2018, and have had many follow-up pieces since. The conclusion of my pieces has been that to obtain sufficient battery storage to back up a primarily wind/sun grid using current lithium-ion battery technology, and even assuming best case future cost reductions and economies of scale, would cost the full GDP and more of any jurisdiction that makes the effort.

Well, who says you can only use lithium-ion technology? The massive Biden-era green energy handout statutes (e.g., the “Inflation Reduction Act”), together with green energy enthusiasm generally, have brought forth a gusher of entrepreneurialism looking for new, better and cheaper energy storage systems. Recent comments on some of my posts, as well as those of daughter Jane over at @janementonnyc on Instagram, have advocated for two new technologies of energy storage as the solution to the intermittency problem. Those two are flywheel batteries, and iron-air batteries. Could either of those really work?

As background to discussion of those two specifically, I suggest thinking about the model of the storage of drinking water. New York City stores water in a network of reservoirs located in upstate New York. The City’s water consumption is approximately 1 billion gallons per day. The storage capacity of the reservoirs is approximately 550 billion gallons, that is, approximately 550 days, or more than a year and a half of consumption. The amount stored in the reservoirs fluctuates over the course of a year, and generally drops over the summer and into the fall, but it rarely gets below about 70% of capacity, or about 380 billion gallons. And in years with serious droughts, the storage can fall below 50% of capacity, and even down to 40% of capacity. A storage level of under 40% of capacity has only happened once in my lifetime, which was about 60 years ago. In other words, most of the storage capacity is there to guard against a worst-case drought, and much of the water remains in storage for decades on end to guard against that event. Fortunately, a simple reservoir has the capability to do that.

An electrical grid without full dispatchable backup needs the same kind of storage capability. The fact that a group of generators can produce the same number of MWhs of energy in a year as the average amount demanded means little unless the energy can be matched minute by minute to the demand. To meet that criterion, a storage system must be able to store the energy from summer to winter, or from spring one year all the way to spring the next year. Preferably, there should be an ample balance stored for the long term to guard against a worst-case wind/sun drought that may occur only once a decade.

By the way, it is by no means clear that lithium-ion batteries have this level of capability. But for today, let’s consider the technologies advocated by our commenters, flywheel and iron-air.

Flywheel batteries. Flywheel batteries have lots of advantages. For example, they can discharge a very high percentage of the energy originally stored in them (90-95%), and can be charged and discharged potentially thousands or even tens of thousands of times without seriously degrading. Moreover, they can ramp up and down quickly to replace generation from intermittent sources; and they have spinning inertia, which wind and solar generators do not, and which is badly needed for grid stability.

But unfortunately flywheel batteries have very high rates of what is called “self-discharge,” that is, dissipation of the stored power over time. According to this source (something called Permanent Energy), many flywheel batteries lose as much as 12.5% per hour, and even the best ones lose about 5% per day. Other sources give me similar answers. In other words, energy stored in a flywheel battery will be long gone a month later, even if never called on. Flywheel batteries may have many uses, but for purposes of backing up the grid against any serious wind/sun drought, they are worthless. Oh, and they are expensive — currently costing in the range of $400/kWh, which is more even than lithium-ion batteries and translates to many trillions of dollars to buy amounts useful for full grid backup.

Iron-air batteries. This is a type of battery that uses only the simplest and most common of materials — iron and air. The process of storing and discharging energy takes place by repeatedly rusting and unrusting the iron. It turns out that you can store a lot of energy that way. It’s not subject to exploding or catching fire. And it’s cheap: proponents claim that they will be able to achieve a price of $20/kWh, which is a small fraction of the current price of lithium-ion batteries (~$300/kWh). So what could possibly be the problem?

Again, self-discharge is a killer. Current iron-air batteries lose about 2-5% of their stored charge per day. At that rate, all the stored charge will be gone in two months, if not one. Maybe the rate could be improved, but it would need to improve by multiple orders of magnitude to make these batteries even a little useful for large-scale grid backup against worst-case droughts.

And then there are a few other problems. Iron-air batteries can only return about 50% of the energy stored; the rest is lost. And they can only discharge about 1% of the stored energy per hour. That means that they are incapable of ramping up and down quickly to back up the intermittent wind and sun.

Now I’m not at all saying that these two sorts of batteries cannot be useful in certain applications. For example, flywheel batteries appear to be very useful to supplement diesel engines to operate heavy cranes. The cranes go for long periods at low energy, and then have a big surge in power demand when they suddenly lift a heavy load. Pairing a flywheel battery with the diesel engine can cut the size of the needed engine by as much as half.

But why anybody, let alone our commenters, thinks that these sorts of batteries are the answer to grid backup for wind/sun generation, I do not know. Maybe some day. Meanwhile, keep working on it. As I have said before, if someone figures out a battery technology that has the needed capability and is also cost-effective to make a grid work with wind/solar generation, I will be the first to applaud.

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July 11, 2026 10:20 am

I have been involved in electricity storage since 2007, and even hold basic patents on one technology for it. The problems cited for flywheels and iron-air are real and intractable. There is no known technology that can successfully solve grid scale storage. And it is highly unlikely that something ‘new’ will ever come along after 125 years of experimenting with it.
Renewable wishful thinking will not ever become real, period.

abolition man
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 11, 2026 10:39 am

Wishful thinking is a major component of all the various Marxist cult religions! Climastrology is no different than Transgenderism or Anti-Racism in this respect. The adherents make up a problem, then spend limitless time and money trying to develop solutions; reality be damned!

Scissor
Reply to  abolition man
July 11, 2026 11:37 am

Their wish is to steal as much money as possible and to get away with it.

California’s high speed rail project is almost 2 decades old and $100 plus billion later does not have any track laid.

Dave Burton
Reply to  abolition man
July 12, 2026 5:15 pm

Peak daily electricity consumption in the USA in 2024 was 14,843 GWh, in one 24-hour period. (Average daily use over the whole year was only 75% of that, but we can’t build electric grids for average demand, they have to handle peak demand.)

Grid-connected battery storage is less than 1% of that: 137 GHh of nameplate capacity. Of that, about 80% is actually usable (because, to slow battery degradation, they don’t charge to 100% or discharge to 0%, and they also lose energy in AC/DC conversion, and transmission). Call it 110 GWh usable, or 0.74% = 10.7 minutes of a peak day’s electricity use.

Because that’s whole-nation data, you can think of that as a national average; some places have more, some have less.

It doesn’t count non-electric energy used for heating, motor fuels, etc. Only about one-third of the fossil fuels used in the USA are used for generating electricity.

You cannot run America’s home heating furnaces, hot water heaters, and blast furnaces off batteries on windless winter nights, let alone through a week-long dunkelflaute.

Even Bill Gates understands that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xe3BWPsBTU

BTW, did you know that blast furnaces have to run 24/7? They cannot be shut down at night.

Grid-level battery storage is used for frequency regulation (FCAS), and short term arbitrage. It cannot solve the intermittency problem of wind and solar energy.

In places where peak demand coincides with peak solar energy availability, supplementing baseload & dispatchable energy sources with solar can can help with peak load shaving. But there are fewer such places than you might think. Even in the American Southwest peak summer demand tends to occur hours later than peak solar output, with near-peak demand extending into the evening. Aiming solar panels to the west can help, at the expense of a reduction in total output, but that cannot make them produce electricity after sunset.

Rud is right: the technology does not exist which would allow Intermittent wind and solar to replace reliable dispatchable and baseload energy sources. No known battery technology can change that fact. Until and unless there is an extraordinary breakthrough in technology, relying on unreliable energy will continue to mean freezing in the dark on windless winter nights.

James Snook
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 11, 2026 12:18 pm

The best way to store energy in a flywheel is to make it out of wood and burn it 🤡

Erik Magnuson
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 11, 2026 12:18 pm

“Supercaps” make economic sense where the energy storage is cycled many times an hour. They would also be useful for supplying synthetic inertia for grids – but this for storing/releasing large amounts of power on a second by second basis and emphatically not for long term grid storage.

Reply to  Erik Magnuson
July 11, 2026 12:31 pm

Correct on both counts. In Japan, they have supercap systems up to 4Mw for reactive AC power correction in large factories. My issued fundamental energy storage patents cover enhanced supercap carbon electrode materials—1.4x energy density, 2x power density, and 0.7x product cost.

Petey Bird
Reply to  Erik Magnuson
July 12, 2026 7:24 am

Capacitors used for PF correction operate 50-60 times per second and are ideal for that purpose. Nothing better. Synchronous machines also work.

MarkW
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 11, 2026 12:25 pm

I thought you were holding out hope for super capacitors?

Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 11, 2026 1:06 pm

BATTERY SYSTEM CAPITAL COSTS, OPERATING COSTS, ENERGY LOSSES, AND AGING
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/battery-system-capital-costs-losses-and-aging

Utility-scale, battery system pricing usually not made public, but for this system it was.
Neoen, in western Australia, turned on its 219 MW/ 877 MWh Tesla Megapack battery, the largest in western Australia.
Ultimately, a 560 MW/2,240 MWh battery system, $1,100,000,000/2,240,000 kWh = $491/kWh, delivered as AC, late 2024 pricing. Smaller capacity systems cost much more than $500/kWh
.
Annual Cost of Megapack Battery Systems; 2023 pricing
Assume 45.3 MW/181.9 MWh; turnkey cost $104.5 million; 104,500,000/181,900 = $574/kWh
Amortize bank loan, 50% of $104.5 million, at 6.5%/y for 15 years, $5.484 million/y
Pay Owner return, 50% of $104.5 million, at 10%/y for 15 years, $6.765 million/y (10% due to high inflation)
Lifetime (Bank + Owner) payments 15 x (5.484 + 6.765) = $183.7 million
Assume battery daily usage, 15 years at 10%; loss factor = 1 / (0.9 *0.9)
Battery lifetime output = 15 y x 365 d/y x 181.9 MWh x 0.1, usage x 1000 kWh/MWh = 99,590,250 kWh to HV grid; 122,950,926 kWh from HV grid; 233,606,676 kWh loss
(Bank + Owner) payments, $183.7 million / 99,590,250 kWh = 184.5 c/kWh
Less 50% subsidies (tax credits, 5-y depreciation, loan interest deduction, etc.) is 92.3c/kWh
Subsidies shift costs from project Owners to ratepayers, taxpayers, government debt
.
Excluded costs/kWh: 1) O&M; 2) system aging, 1.5%/y, 3) loss factor 1 / (0.9*0.9), HV grid-to-HV grid, 4) grid extension/reinforcement to connect battery systems, 5) downtime of parts of the system, 6) decommissioning in year 15, i.e., disassembly, reprocessing, storing at hazardous waste sites. Excluded costs add at least 15 c/kWh
 
COMMENTS ON CALCULATION
Almost all battery systems operate at less than 10%, see top URL, i.e., new systems would operate at about 92.4 + 15 = 107.4 c/kWh. They are used to stabilize the grid, i.e., frequency control and counteracting up/down W/S outputs. 
Up to 40% throughput (at about 23.1 + 15 = 38.1 c/kWh) could occur by absorbing midday solar peaks and discharging during late-afternoon/early-evening, as in sunny California. The more solar systems, the greater the midday peaks. 
Above c/kWh is on top of the c/kWh of electricity taken from HV grid to charge the batteries.
See top URL for Megapacks required for a one-day wind lull in New England
40% throughput is close to Tesla’s recommendation of 60% maximum throughput, i.e., not charge above 80% and not discharge below 20%, to perform 24/7/365 service for 15 y, with normal aging.

Owners of battery systems with fires, likely charged above 80% and discharged below 20% to maximize profits.
Tesla’s recommendation was not heeded by the Owners of the Hornsdale Power Reserve in Australia. They excessively charged/discharged the system. After a few years, they added Megapacks to offset rapid aging of the original system, plus they added more Megapacks to increase the rating of the expanded system.
http://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/the-hornsdale-power-reserve-largest-battery-system-in-australia
.
Regarding any project, Banks and Owners must be paid, no matter what. I amortized the Bank loan and Owner’s investment
Divide total payments over 15 years by the 15-y throughput to get c/kWh, as shown.
Loss factor = 1 / (0.9 *0.9), from HV grid to 1) step-down transformer, 2) front-end power electronics, 3) into battery, 4) out of battery, 5) back-end power electronics, 6) step-up transformer, to HV grid, i.e., draw about 50 units from HV grid to deliver about 40 units to HV grid. That gets worse with aging.
A lot of people do not like these c/kWh numbers, because they have been misled by self-serving folks, that “battery Nirvana is just around the corner”.
.
NOTE: EV battery packs cost about $135/kWh, before it is installed in the car. Such packs are good for 6 to 8 years, used about 2 h/d, at an average speed of 30 mph. Utility battery systems are used 24/7/365 for 15 years
.
NOTE: Battery system turnkey capital costs and electricity storage costs likely will be much higher in 2023 and future years, than in 2021 and earlier years, due to: 1) increased inflation rates, 2) increased interest rates, 3) supply chain disruptions, which delay projects and increase costs, 4) increased energy prices, such as of oil, gas, coal, electricity, etc., 5) increased materials prices, such as of tungsten, cobalt, lithium, copper, manganese, etc., 6) increased labor rates.

DD More
Reply to  wilpost
July 12, 2026 8:50 am

Where is the conversion losses?
Wind produces AC power & Solar produces DC power.

Conversion factors for a full High Voltage Direct Current (HVDC) transmission link (converting AC to DC, then back to AC), total conversion losses typically range from 1.5% to 3.5%

Reply to  DD More
July 12, 2026 10:22 am

My comment includes a paragraph that defines SIX losses
Round trip loss .9 in x .9 out = 0.81, or 19%, increases with aging of batteries and upstream/down stream equipment. Batteries have a life of about 15 years, if operated 24/7/365

Reply to  wilpost
July 12, 2026 5:19 pm

40% annual throughput is almost impossible to achieve.
I will add this to my write up next time, just for clarity.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 11, 2026 4:03 pm

“and then a miracle happens” is invisibly written at the end of every green idea for energy production

Tom Johnson
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 12, 2026 4:21 am

The necessity for 1000 hours of storage rounds off to 40 days and 40 nights. This sounds to be quite biblical. Have you considered whether or not building an ark might be useful just in case?

2hotel9
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 12, 2026 4:50 am

“no known technology that can successfully solve grid scale storage” Actually, there is a solution. Gas, Coal, Hydro and Nuclear. Problem solved.

July 11, 2026 10:45 am

“Better keep working on it” ??

Better ditch and forget about it until hell freezes over (the real one, not the Eagles)

Idiotic pipedream of some pencilpushers, looks great on paper…toilet paper, not workable concept at all, not even for a single household.

Regardless the type of battery the problem you keep on running into is always the same: shortage of capacity.

Either you’re lacking charge (especially if you are all in for “sustainables”) or you’re forced to discharge more than you actually had planned (but so dearly need to do it just right at that moment – imagine the finger your battery gives you).

Grid battery backup is as absurd as one running his car exclusively on jerry cans which he keeps in his trunk instead topping up the main gas tank when it runs low. A reasonable person would ask: why on earth?

July 11, 2026 10:46 am

Google AI says:

Globally, there have been 95 tracked failure incidents at grid-scale Battery Energy Storage Systems (BESS) according to the EPRI BESS Failure Incident Database.Among these tracked industry events, over 50 major fires have occurred worldwide.

Yes I know Google AI has a bias.

Ships sunk:
The Morning Midas June 2025
The Felicity Ace February 2022 
Fremantle Highway July 2023

July 11, 2026 10:50 am

The whole thing only creates problems since it doesn’t justify the expenditure of low mass intermittent power generating sources in the first place thus the whole set up is just a gigantic waste from day one.

There is an unfinished building at Hanford that could be used for a Thorium reactor that would easily replace the dumb array of wind power in the same region.

July 11, 2026 11:11 am

If you go to the website WattClarity, (WattClarity | Commentary and analysis of Australia’s NEM) they have a whole series of articles about how the South Australia batteries ran out of charge very early on in a 4 day wind drought. It was only the importation of power from the gas turbines they still haven’t scrapped yet and Victorian coal fired stations that saved them from another self-inflicted blackout. The batteries were recharging on expensive power to help manage the peaks, but that power came from fossil fuel plants

Reply to  Chris Morris
July 12, 2026 6:16 pm

That’s Australia’s energy strategy at this point in the transition. You make it sound like its an unusual or unexpected position. The vast majority of SA’s imported power comes from Victoria’s brown coal, not gas and the energy typically used to charge batteries under those conditions is sourced in the middle of the day when there is excess solar energy. Its not inherently expensive, its more efficient to export excess coal/solar power than it is to try to follow demand with coal.

Here is a discharge portion of energy for the batteries in SA. They’re not meant to hold the grid for significant time so why even claim or imply they’re incapable? They’re meant to service peaks.

chrome_2026-07-13_11-10-08
July 11, 2026 11:16 am

Simply getting a number from Net Zero advocates as to how much storage is needed is impossible.

They have no idea, even to within a factor of 10.

July 11, 2026 11:19 am

The standard joke in the industry is a battery is just a chemical energy storage system. The only difference between it and a bomb is the rate of discharge.

Reply to  Chris Morris
July 11, 2026 3:51 pm

Good one!
This is from Frances Menton’s blog comments per this same article:
Claytong:
“I see that Cuba once again attained Net Zero yesterday. I am still unsure of why this is not being celebrated loudly.”

July 11, 2026 12:01 pm

Not mentioned in the above article, but worth considering IMHO, are the following key factors —in addition to those given—that will result in battery backup for grids being the largest source of electrical energy waste since the invention of the incandescent light bulb:

1) The grid is based on AC electricity whereas all chemical battery types are based on DC electricity input, storage and output. The required use of voltage level-changing transformers and inverters (for changing DC into AC) and rectifiers (for changing AC into DC) cause continuous, unavoidable losses when connecting and using chemical batteries with any AC grid, generally in the range of a 10-15% energy loss roundtrip. Imagine that energy loss at 100’s of MWh energy levels! In addition, special control electronics are needed to match batttery pack output, following conversion to AC, to the tight requirements for grid AC frequency and phase.

2) Most high-capacity, high charge/discharge rate chemical battery packs need some sort of active thermal control to prevent detrimental overheating caused by internal ohmic heating when in use. The thermal monitoring and active control is a “parasitic” energy loss and may even lead to limiting battery pack output in times of dire need. In addition, just the unavoidable internal ohmic losses from passing current through a battery are in the range of 2% to 5% of a battery pack’s total energy capacity.

3) Most chemical battery packs need to be maintained at temperatures above -20 deg-C (-4 deg-F to avoid permanent damage when charging/discharging. Providing heating of large battery installations for protection against environment temperatures below this is a possible large “parasitic” energy loss. Or one is faced with just not using batteries for “grid backup” in climates where temperature routinely drop below -4 deg-F.

MarkW
Reply to  ToldYouSo
July 11, 2026 2:16 pm

4) Batteries also can’t be allowed to get too hot, as heat ages the batteries at a greatly accelerated rate.

Reply to  MarkW
July 12, 2026 8:46 am

See my number 2 item.

MarkW
Reply to  ToldYouSo
July 13, 2026 7:55 pm

#2 only covers charging and discharging.
They have to be kept cool all of the time.

Reply to  MarkW
July 14, 2026 11:26 am

“They have to be kept cool all of the time.”

From Google’s AI bot:

“Tesla’s active battery cooling system typically activates when the high-voltage battery pack reaches approximately 122°F to 131°F (50°C to 55°C), depending on the specific model and chemistry.”

Having ambient environmental temperatures reach or exceed 120°F is not a common occurrence across most of the Earth’s surface, so when considering parked/garaged EVs with Li-ion battery packs (such as Teslas), I assert the phrase “kept cool all of the time” DOES NOT APPLY.

But then again, maybe you consider temperatures below 120°F to be “cool”.

Reply to  ToldYouSo
July 12, 2026 7:33 am

battery backup for grids being the largest source of electrical energy waste since the invention of the incandescent light bulb

Because those bulbs produce heat? Well, if you live like I do in a location where I need to run my furnace about 9 months/year- any heat generated by those bulbs isn’t wasted.

MarkW
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
July 12, 2026 8:14 am

Years ago, I read a story about a factory that replaced large incandescent bulbs with fluorescent bulbs. Seems the next spring they had to hire a bunch of workers to beef up the heating system.

When I lived in Iowa, one thing I noticed. As you say, during the winter, the heat isn’t wasted. Except for outdoor lights.
During the summer, the sun didn’t go down until after 9pm, so I only had the lights on for an hour or two a day.
Spring and fall, I used the lights more, but the windows were open so any extra heat was dumped to the outside.
Took a long time to recover the cost of LED bulbs.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
July 12, 2026 8:52 am

OK. But 400 to 500 million people live in Earth’s immediate equatorial zones (within 10 degrees of the equator) and I have to believe that most of them use, or used to use, incandescent lights at nighttime.

MarkW
July 11, 2026 12:29 pm

All this hassle to try and solve a problem that never existed in the first place.

bobpjones
Reply to  MarkW
July 12, 2026 12:28 am

My thoughts exactly.

A complex solution required to solve a problem, requiring a complex solution to solve a problem in the complex solution.

Large flees have small flees upon their backs to bite ’em
Small flees have even smaller flees and so on, ad infinitum

MarkW
Reply to  bobpjones
July 12, 2026 8:15 am

Flea, small biting insect.
Flee, to run away.

When I was much younger, I read a science fiction short story. It was about a group of hunters who went back in time to hunt dinosaurs.
After killing a brontosaurus (I had to look it up, but brontosaurus is apparently a separate genus again.)
After the kill, they stuck around to take pictures, collect trophies and otherwise celebrate. A few hours later, the party was attacked by 6 foot tall fleas. The fleas had left the body when it cooled and were looking for anything warm for their next meal.

bobpjones
Reply to  MarkW
July 12, 2026 9:19 pm

Dohhhh, fingers and brain not coordinating. A rather strange phenomenon I discovered 40+ years ago, when first using a word processor, typing a word that sounds the same but spelt differently.

Even today I still have the problem. Thanks Mark.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  MarkW
July 13, 2026 12:56 pm

Rube Goldberg is pleased.

July 11, 2026 12:35 pm

Good article.

Figure out how to use intermittent wind or solar energy to directly synthesize stable carbon-based fuels. This could be methane, longer chain liquids, and even solids (synthetic coal!) Make those fuels interchangeable with hydrocarbon fuels extracted or derived from natural deposits.

But until that day, we must stop with this wishful thinking about a future electricity grid powered by wind and solar with storage, which first of all addresses only a fraction of our energy requirements.

I note that mechanical engineering, my own technical discipline, has been wracking its collective brains for decades now trying to imagine a storage concept that will work safely at a competitive cost and useful scale. As the author mentions, there are certain applications for energy storage that serve a special purpose economically. Fine. But move on. Get past this irrational aversion to emissions of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. It was never a “climate” problem in the first place. Take a lesson from the green plants of the world.

Thank you for listening.

Reply to  David Dibbell
July 11, 2026 1:42 pm

“Figure out how to use intermittent wind or solar energy to directly synthesize stable carbon-based fuels.”

Well, basic physics says that it is impossible to create protons and neutrons, the nuclear components of matter, from electrons, the basic component of electricity.

But what the heck, go for it!

Reply to  ToldYouSo
July 11, 2026 1:59 pm

Sure, start with a carbon source and water. But you knew that, no doubt.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  David Dibbell
July 11, 2026 3:10 pm

Liquid gasoline and diesel fuels are indispensable for a modern industrial economy. At some point in the long-term future, maybe a hundred years from now or thereabouts, nuclear power plants might be used to economically synthesize these liquid fuels using CO2 extracted from seawater.

Forty-five years ago, I was briefly involved in a study to see if nuclear power plants could be used to economically desalinate seawater for use in supporting extraction of shale oil from the Colorado Plateau — an extraction process which would require massive volumes of fresh water for a variety of industrial purposes in processing and transporting the shale oil.

That didn’t work out because shale oil extraction would be a massive environmental disaster on the Colorado Plateau for a number of reasons. But the short study did show that with fifteen or twenty 1,100 MW nuclear power plants located on the coast, it would be possible to supply all of California’s civil and agricultural fresh water needs through seawater desalination.

Reply to  David Dibbell
July 12, 2026 8:59 am

It was YOU, not me, that stated “directly synthesize”. Did you really mean ” . . . use intermittent wind or solar energy in combination with a carbon source and water to synthesize stable carbon-based fuels.”?

And yes, I did and do know the difference between “directly” and “indirectly”.

Eng_Ian
Reply to  David Dibbell
July 11, 2026 9:48 pm

I would love to see a real fuel alternative, created by the direct creation of methanol, ethanol or even a larger alkane, (liquid at or near room temperature and pressure). As David notes below, you obviously start with a carbon source.

Carbon dioxide would be a good precursor fuel, ask a plant, (much better than asking AI).

Reply to  Eng_Ian
July 13, 2026 9:04 am

If you “obviously start with a carbon source”, then why not use that carbon source directly (as in, combust it with air to produce energy)? Why go through the extra hassle and costs of directly (synthetically) creating “methanol, ethanol or even larger alkanes”?

I believe that is already being done in using coal as a “carbon source” and propane as a “carbon source” (it is liquid at room temperature when pressurized to about 150 psia) and butane as a “carbon source” (it is liquid at room temperature when pressurized to about 45 psia).

Speaking of plants, I do believe that biomass can be classified generically as a “carbon source” that is currently used directly as a fuel . . . and specifically that ethanol (a liquid-at-room temperature) is currently simply sourced from plants such as corn, sugarcane and sugar beets.

Ronald Stein
July 11, 2026 12:50 pm

The ignorance of the “energy ILLITERATE” leaders is shocking, as they NEVER explain how the “energy” from wind turbines and solar panels can provide TRANSPORTATION FUELS: jet fuel for military and commercial aircraft, diesel fuel for trucks and construction equipment, gasoline fuel for cars, bunker fuel for merchant and cruise ships, and the exotic fuels for the space programs !
 
Energy “REALITY” is that wind turbines and solar panels ONLY generate electricity but CANNOT make any products or transportation fuels for life as we know it.
 
Planes, ships, trucks, and cars run on transportation fuels manufactured FROM crude oil by multi-billion-dollar refineries.
 
There is NO case for unreliable electricity, as wind and solar CANNOT make any transportation fuels or products for the 8 billion on this planet.
 
The world has become dependent on the products and transportation fuels MADE FROM oil, the same products and transportation fuels that unreliable green electricity from Wind and Solar CANNOT make!
 

Reply to  Ronald Stein
July 11, 2026 4:41 pm

Yeah, but did you see the battery powered airplane that flew for a total of 5 minutes carrying no load at all, impractical design, shape, size, and would lack durability, but it is only a matter of time before the technology catches up and we have battery powered flight. <sarc> ^10

Graeme4
Reply to  John Aqua
July 11, 2026 5:25 pm

Didn’t somebody work out that to provide a normal operating range for a 737, it would have to carry over 700 tonnes of batteries.

Eng_Ian
Reply to  John Aqua
July 11, 2026 9:53 pm

I think the solution for electric flight is not carrying the batteries but instead being fired from a very long rail gun. The longer the flight the longer the run up, else you need to order a stronger passenger, more resistant to g forces that are otherwise capable of finding out what everyone had for breakfast. And of course, landings will be based on who gets there first, without a real engine, you only get one shot.

And yes, I think this could work, if nothing else, it would be a great session for plane spotters.

Sonic booms are soooo yesterday.

Did I forget the /s? Of course not. I’d like to watch from the sidelines.

1saveenergy
Reply to  John Aqua
July 12, 2026 12:40 am

From …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Technologies_Alia

The Alia is built in two models; the VTOL A250, and the CTOL CX300.

March 2021, the A250 made a test flight from Plattsburgh, across Lake Champlain, and back to Burlington
Alia CX300General characteristics

  Crew: 1
  Capacity: 5 passengers or 200 cu ft (5.7 m3) of cargo
  Wingspan: 50 ft (15 m)
  Powerplant: 1 × Beta Technologies H500A[40] electric motor
  Propellers: 5-bladed Hartzell Propeller fixed pitch propeller[41]

Performance

  Maximum speed: 176 mph (283 km/h, 153 kn)
  Range: 387 mi (622 km, 336 nmi)

Mike Larkin
Reply to  Ronald Stein
July 12, 2026 3:21 am

It’s not mere energy illiteracy, it is scientific illiteracy.

Most of them would need to take their shoes and socks off to count to 20, and wouldn’t even know to do that if you told them to use all their digits.

Reply to  Ronald Stein
July 12, 2026 10:29 am

Wind, solar, hydro, nuclear, geothermal, wave, tide, etc., do not produce the feedstock for chemical plants that produce tens of thousands of everyday products

MarkW
Reply to  wilpost
July 13, 2026 8:02 pm

They can provide the power to synthesize them.

Beta Blocker
July 11, 2026 12:52 pm

The smaller of the oncoming nuclear SMR’s will work technically as load-following units and as peaking capacity — if we are willing to pay extra above and beyond what stand-by gas-fired peakers cost to build and operate.

For example, an individual NuScale 77 MWe module can be black started and can be coordinated with other ganged NuScale modules to deliver a relatively smooth ramp-up profile.

Using the NuScale SMR in this way as a capacity market generating unit is a very expensive proposition. But it can work technically if one is willing to fork over the necessary cash.

Reply to  Beta Blocker
July 11, 2026 1:47 pm

Where can I buy a NuScale SMR today? It’s a no-show on Amazon, at any price.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  ToldYouSo
July 11, 2026 2:49 pm

You will have to buy from NuScale directly and bring 6 billion dollars in guaranteed financing with you to pay for an initial four-module 308 MWe power plant. Doosan Enerbility in South Korea will supply the four individual 77 MWe SMR module units and Fluor will supply the necessary EPC construction and project management services.

Costs may vary depending upon where you want to site your initial four-module complex. For example, if it is to be sited in upstate New York, add 30% to buy union labor peace and to handle the inevitable political corruption and political pay-off expenses.

Curious George
Reply to  Beta Blocker
July 11, 2026 4:30 pm

Is there only one vendor for SMRs (NuScale)?

Beta Blocker
Reply to  Curious George
July 11, 2026 5:48 pm

Lots of vendors are out there for SMRs. IIRC, more than 40 at last count. However, only the NuScale SMR is currently licensed by the NRC for construction in the US.

A few others are in the NRC pipeline for gaining a construction license. The BWRX-300 is licensed in Canada and will likely be getting an NRC license in the US in a few years for construction by the Tennessee Valley Authority.

The NuScale design is configured for both load-following and for black start. It can be islanded without external power from the grid and can be used for restarting a power grid which has suffered a complete blackout.

That said, the first SMR to go live on the North American continent will probably be the BWRX-300 in Ontario, Canada, in 2030.

Reply to  Beta Blocker
July 12, 2026 9:19 am

“. . . and Fluor will supply the necessary EPC construction and project management services.”

Oh, thank you for this detailed cost and siting/management info, but I was really looking to buy just one NuScale 77 MWe SMR, small enough to be portable on the flatbed of a tractor trailer truck, configured for 220 Vac output with the associated 500,000 amp-rated output cables.

For a special experimental project of mine, don’t cha know. Hoping to avoid union vigorish and other “add-ons” if at all possible.

Curious George
Reply to  ToldYouSo
July 12, 2026 10:08 am

🙂

July 11, 2026 12:53 pm

after reading the story and comments, a question pop into my mind. there may not be an answer .

if say the USA grid were to be powered 100% by solar and wind, and there was zero volts in the system, could the grid be energized and operational starting from zero volts with or with out battery/capacitor storage?

Reply to  joe x
July 11, 2026 1:28 pm

Yes you cangrid forming batteries or a suitably equipped hydro (needs self energised exciter and a special governor) can do blackstarts.

ferdberple
July 11, 2026 1:15 pm

The turbogenerator battery works well. Doesn’t even need electricity to charge it up.

Reply to  ferdberple
July 11, 2026 1:56 pm

. . . but does need a gas or liquid fuel (methane, ethane, propane, butane, gasoline, jet fuel, etc) to power its integrated small gas turbine in order to produce any “battery” power.

TINSTAAFL.

July 11, 2026 1:17 pm

Despite being a tiny fraction of electricity available, batteries in Australia’s eastern states electricity grid consistently set the highest bidding price.

They make most of their money trying to control the intermittency and erratic behaviour of wind and solar.

ferdberple
July 11, 2026 1:43 pm

backup: It costs a lot and you hope to never need it. When you need it most, it is least likely to work.

Edward Katz
July 11, 2026 1:50 pm

Large-scale storage batteries that could store electricity the way large tanks can store oil or gasoline or water or almost any other liquid would be an invention that would be worth billions. Unfortunately, there’s nothing on the horizon that’s remotely like them yet, so no environmentalist, no matter how unrealistic, should even be discussing them.

Bob
July 11, 2026 3:25 pm

Francis you are far too kind to the other side. Wind and solar can’t support the grid, everybody knows that. The only proper backup for either wind or solar is fossil fuel and nuclear. Since we already have fossil fuel and nuclear and they can backup themselves why would anyone build solar and wind. Update all existing fossil fuel and nuclear generators and get busy building more of them. This is not a complex issue.

July 11, 2026 10:54 pm

Meanwhile, naive politicians (those in New York being Exhibit A) regularly get duped into buying a few hours or tens of hours worth of batteries for grid backup, spending billions of dollars on amounts of storage that will be almost useless for backing up a primarily wind/sun grid.

Meanwhile Francis displays no understanding of the value of energy satisfying peak demand because “a few hours or tens of hours worth of batteries” more than pay for themselves. This isn’t controversial, it happens today.

If everyone thinks nuclear energy is the “only” solution, why isn’t it being built at scale?

And from Rud we have

There is no known technology that can successfully solve grid scale storage.

Sodium based batteries could certainly do it. There is no shortage of Sodium like there is Lithium, they have better longevity and cold temperature response. Claiming “no known technology” is
simply stating ignorance of latest technological advancements.

Phillip Chalmers
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
July 12, 2026 12:42 am

Why? I have lived through the why. The baby-boomer adolescent children of the victorious allies invented the new religion of Age of Aquarius of love, joy, peace and terror of everything nuclear.
The mortal sin had been committed, the Imperial Japanese forces trying to take over the world were only defeated by demonstrating to the whole world that atom bombs existed and were much more powerful than gunpowder and TNT and left radioactive residues and could be dropped on the Ayatollah (whoops!) Japanese Emperor himself.

Reply to  Phillip Chalmers
July 12, 2026 1:45 am

Yes, agreed as the most important point. Plus investment risk, cost and time. Plus NIMBY. It was a somewhat rhetorical question.

mikeq
July 11, 2026 10:54 pm

I created a model using Irish qtr-hr renewable generation and demand data 2009 to 2022 and created a model to assess energy storage needs for a fully renewable system.
Annual Irish electricity demand in 2022 was about 30 TWH.
I estimated the energy storage capacity requirement to be about 15%, i.e. about 4.5 TWH.

The most interesting result of the model output was the timing of peak demand on stored energy.
It is not in winter, but in summer. Given that much capacity, short periods of demand i winter do not stress it because high wind enable rapid recharging of depleted batteries.

The real demand is late Spring and Summer, late April to end September. Seasonally low winds mean that wind turbine capacity factors for periods of weeks are below 10%, so there is continuous drain on the storage system April to September. The seasonally low winds are insufficient to recharge the storage system, so, for Ireland it is the summer demand that drives the storage capacity requirement. Fortunately, aircon is rarely necessary there.

$.5 TWh of batteries would cost up to 1.35 trillion, more than double Irelands GDP.

But Mr Menton does does mention the land required for BESS. Current BESS facilities occupy about 40 sqm per MWh of storage.

4,5 TWh would require 180 sq km of land (45,000 acres) , more than the entire area of Dublin. This demand for land would certainly push up land prices. At current land values, that much land would cost at least 450 million, but with cost pressures probably 900 million and perhaps more.
Peanuts compared to the batteries, but still big bucks.

Multiply those number by 75 to 100 to get comparable (i.e. approximate values, more or less in the ballpark) requirements and costs for the US

Mike Larkin
July 12, 2026 3:25 am

I think we should just use uranium batteries to heat water hot enough to turn into steam to turn turbines to generate electricity.

That there is a battery you don’t need to charge, geology, physics, and chemistry have already done that for you.

Reply to  Mike Larkin
July 16, 2026 9:12 am

Can’t use natural uranium to do that, so the uranium has to be enriched to at least reactor grade. KA-CHING!

You probably want to have some control and safety features to prevent “runaway” of the fissioning of those enriched uranium batteries. KA-CHING and “Danger, Will Robinson!”

You probably don’t want to enable terrorist and bad actors to be able to accumulate a sizeable amount of enriched uranium to make a “dirty bomb”. KA-CHING and “Danger, Will Robinson!”

You probably do want some good protection from the radiation emitted by the radioactive waste byproducts resulting from using enriched uranium fissioning to produce heat. And what’s the plan to dispose of spent uranium used in those “batteries” . . . certainly can’t go into a landfill and there is currently no recycling of such in the USA. OH, NO!

FYI: From an absolute cold start (or cold shutdown), a commercial nuclear reactor typically requires 1 to 4 days to begin producing electrical output. So, what new technology would enable “uranium batteries” that heat water to back-up a grid faster than that?

2hotel9
July 12, 2026 4:57 am

All this capital, material and manhours pissed away on nothing when it could be used to build gas, coal, hydro and nuclear electric generation facilities. Almost like pissing away all that capital, material and manhours on nothing were the actual point to begin with.