The guardians of “settled science” have found themselves in another awkward bind. A new study in Nature Communications has discovered that Greenland’s ice sheet has been quietly defying the rules written for it by climate modelers. Instead of every drop of meltwater rushing downhill to flood the coastlines, as we’ve been warned for decades, large portions soak into the porous bare ice, freeze again at night, and never reach the sea.
This is not a minor correction. It strikes at the heart of the projections used to frighten schoolchildren, reshape economies, and justify sweeping technocratic policies. For years, Greenland has been painted as the great tipping point. But according to the paper:
“There is substantial observational evidence that these models overestimate runoff from bare ice surfaces. In the ablation zone of Greenland’s melt-intensive southwest sector, proglacial and supraglacial river discharge measurements reveal up to 67% less annual meltwater release to surrounding oceans than climate model calculations.”
That is not a rounding error. That is climate models telling us to expect a biblical flood while the field instruments record a leaky garden hose.
The problem lies in the way bare ice was conceptualized. The authors explain:
“Climate models traditionally treat bare ice as an impervious, high-density substrate with no capacity to retain water. Accordingly, runoff produced on bare ice is instantly credited in its entirety to sea level, despite growing field reports of non-trivial meltwater retention on or within bare ice.”
Translated: modelers assumed Greenland’s exposed ice behaves like a granite countertop—whatever melts immediately runs off. But when field scientists actually drilled cores and measured densities, they found a “meltwater-saturated weathering crust” with a density of just 690 kg/m³. Far from being impermeable, the surface was riddled with pores that soaked up water like a sponge. That meltwater then froze solid again during cold polar nights.
The paper describes this nightly cycle:
“These subfreezing temperatures drive refreezing of subsurface liquid meltwater at rates approaching 1 mm h−1 between 02:00–04:00 local time, when the ice surface temperature drops as low as −6 °C.”
Photos in the study show thin sheets of frozen water blanketing the surface each morning, as though the glacier patched itself overnight.
When the researchers scaled their findings up, the results were staggering:
“From 2009 to 2018, meltwater refreezing in bare, porous glacier ice reduced runoff by an estimated 11–17 Gt a−1 in southwest Greenland alone, equivalent to 9–15% of this sector’s annual meltwater runoff simulated by climate models.”
Eleven to seventeen gigatons per year—vanishing from the models’ predicted “contribution to sea level rise” because the water never made it out of the ice. Once again, measurements show nature refuses to cooperate with the apocalypse narrative.
Déjà vu All Over Again
If this sounds familiar, it should. Climate science has a long history of confident predictions that later collapse under the weight of actual observation.
In 2007, prominent scientists announced the Arctic would be “ice-free by 2013.” Journalists at the Guardian and Independent ran breathless headlines about “the end of Arctic ice.” Yet by 2013, the Arctic still had millions of square kilometers of summer ice, and as of today—twelve years past the deadline—it still does.
In 1989, a senior UN official claimed that entire nations would be “wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000.” By 2000, island nations like the Maldives and Tuvalu were still above water, still inhabited, and still building airports for tourists.
In the 1970s, leading journals speculated about a new ice age, warning that human activity might be tipping Earth into dangerous global cooling. Newsweek (1975) famously ran the headline “The Cooling World,” predicting agricultural collapse and mass starvation. Four decades later, the narrative had pivoted 180 degrees to planetary overheating.
The pattern is always the same: bold certainty, dire predictions, and then a quiet walk-back when reality refuses to obey. Yet the policy prescriptions never shrink—only expand.
Greenland as the Latest Case Study in Model Hubris
The Greenland paper provides another textbook example. The authors admit their own models consistently overpredicted runoff:
“By the end of the 6–13 July 2016 field experiment, climate model runoff ranges from 7% lower (MERRA−2) to 58% higher (RACMO2.3p3) than observations, similar to +21–58% we previously reported for 2015.”
Think about that. A “state-of-the-art” regional climate model was 58% off. No engineer would accept a bridge design model that missed by 58%. No accountant would tolerate a budget model that overshot by 58%. But in climate science, this level of error is routinely called “robust.”
The authors go further:
“Considering all runoff observations across six independent sites, IceModel forced with MODIS albedo exhibits the lowest mean bias (−2% ± 18%), while climate models predict +9% ± 46% to +47% ± 32% higher runoff than observations.”
That means across multiple sites, climate models exaggerated runoff by up to nearly 50%. The only time a model got close to reality was when compensating errors canceled each other out—like two wrongs accidentally making a right.
Yet Still, the Ritual Defense
Despite presenting clear evidence of systematic exaggeration, the paper ends with the usual incantation:
“Climate models are essential tools for estimating Greenland’s meltwater runoff, and the only tool for predicting future ice sheet runoff.”
Here we see the religion of modeling laid bare. Models may be consistently wrong, but they are still deemed “the only tool.” Data are not sovereign; models are. Reality must be adjusted to serve the oracle, not the other way around.
This is why the same institutions that declared the Arctic ice-free by 2013 can still hold conferences in 2025 without blushing. The oracle is never discarded. It is only “updated.”
The Real Lesson
The study itself is an impressive piece of field science. The authors lugged Doppler instruments across glaciers, drilled cores, hammered bamboo stakes into ice, and collected thousands of hours of data. Their findings are solid: Greenland’s bare ice retains and refreezes meltwater, reducing actual runoff to the ocean by 9–15% compared to what models predict.
But the larger lesson is not about Greenland at all. It is about the fragility of the model-driven climate narrative. How many policies have already been justified on the basis of overestimated Greenland runoff? How many speeches, regulations, and taxpayer-funded initiatives leaned on figures now shown to be inflated by 58%?
When the ice sheet itself proves the models wrong, perhaps the responsible course is not to double down on the models but to rethink their authority. Skepticism—the active suspension of judgment until evidence is sufficient—would demand it.
History’s Warning
History offers a sobering reminder of what happens when technocrats insist they can predict and manage complex systems. In the 1970s, U.S. government experts assured the public that energy demand would rise so fast that America would face permanent shortages by the 1990s. They invested billions in synthetic fuels and other boondoggles that collapsed when oil prices fell. In agriculture, central planners in the Soviet Union, armed with “scientific” yield models, imposed planting schemes that produced chronic famine.
The common thread is hubris. Complex systems—whether an economy, an ice sheet, or a climate—resist neat equations. Pretending otherwise is not science; it is an act of control.
Greenland’s Quiet Rebellion
So Greenland has spoken, and its message is simple: the models were wrong. Meltwater refreezes. Runoff is less than claimed. Sea-level rise is not accelerating in the way the prophets declared.
Yet the same prophets will likely turn this discovery into another layer of complexity in their models, another variable to tweak, another line of code to justify their indispensability. Because in their eyes, models are never abandoned—only worshiped more deeply.
The rest of us, meanwhile, can take a different lesson: skepticism is not denial. It is prudence. When the very glaciers defy the narrative, perhaps the crisis is not in the climate but in the institutions that insist it is settled.
Greenland has shown itself sturdier than the models. The question is whether our politics, our press, and our public discourse are strong enough to admit it.
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The only thing we pragmatics/skeptics/deniers deny is that the science is settled.
I got into an argument with some greenie about the hypocrisy of claiming the science is settled but still needs trillions of dollar in more research. He said they need to refine the models for more precision. I said they’re already predicting temperatures 75 years from now to tenths of a degree. How much more precision do they need? Is there any significant difference between 1.5 and 1.51? *crickets*
Save your breath next time.
When an ideology such as CAGW takes hold of someone, there is no amount of observation, logic, facts or rationality that will cause them to reconsider their position.
Belief trumps all realities, at all times.
Belief triumphs because the CAGW movement is really a religion.
Yep.
NO! Do not let these idiots go unchallenged. The fence sitters and newbies see unchallenged garbage and assume it must be valid if no one challenges it. Always challenge the idiots.
The answer was that the models do not need more precision they need a much greater degree of accuracy from their current position of complete bollocks.
Precision is important but you can be precise and strongly inaccurate. We need accuracy also.
We deny that CO2 is the control knob for climate.
Because that’s what the data shows.
That is the claim under settled science, no?
THERE IS NO “settled science.”
No matter how many times they insist there is.
Or EVER “settled.” If it is genuine science, it is always subject to question.
Only pseudoscience is not subject to question.
Does this mean the AMOC is not going to collapse? Phew! That was close.
We are literally in the process of understanding the melting process of ice sheets. The process is not simple, so no wonder this happened, and no one has expected otherwise, you doofus. FYI up to cc 2008 glacier speed ups had been underestimated. This is still a new field.
This is a minor correction, for that matter. But the most interesting part is the abstract of the article:
It looks like you want to eat and keep your cookie at the same time 😉 And just to make this more obvious:
Charles (the reformed former Snipper) Rotter is not a doofus, and the tone of your comment is inappropriate.
Was he really a snipper? With double p? Perhaps it is you who have a tone problem with him 😉
I like and respect the work Charles does for the WATTS website. He snipped me for a good reason, but I still like my snipped comment.
This is so gay, yak.
What are you? 9?
Well, nyolci means “eight-ish”… 😉
Mr. letter-salad-for-name: And perhaps, someday, you’ll learn some manners. But not today, eh?
BTW, is there anything more hilariously ironic than one of our CliSci trolls proclaiming that an earth science is “in the process”, i.e., not settled? If meltwater isn’t understood, could it be that your CliSci is “in the process”? Careful, that path will lead you to dangerous thoughts about settled science, could blow your mind and scatter your name into a jumble of letters. Oh…..
See below. No one has claimed that every aspect is settled. Of course, this doesn’t affect the results, this is minor.
Funny how not all of it is settled, yet they still know enough to demand that the entire world’s economy be re-worked and are willing to risk billions of lives.
I think the main problem is risking the bottom line of the oligarchy. That’s why they promote the denier bs mill. BTW the world’s economy is in deep trouble already, and has been for like 2 decades, so it has to be reworked anyway.
Wow, the self delusion in you is extraordinary?
What are these troubles of which only you can see.
Reality is bs. I’ve never met a socialist who can deal with reality, and you are no exception.
Now it’s the oligarchy that are at fault. And the only solution is to make everyone except the oligarchy poor. (Which is what communism and socialism always do.)
lol the oligarchy…are we talking Big Pharma?
Look below??!! What next, you’ll want your finger pulled?
So when you say “it’s minor”, that’s the final word; when we say your warming is minor, and you can’t show any non-minor effect of CO2 increase, we need to hush?
It’s not. A decrease of 15% in meltwater runoff is minor in itself. But more importantly this is minor because the majority of loss of ice from Greenland is happening via glacier retreat, not melting. Ie. ice is directly lost to sea. I can’t remember the percentage but it’s like 1:10 or 1:100 compared to direct ice loss. 15% decrease in this is obviously minor.
Mr. olci: Either glacial retreat meltwater is included in this, or you’re changing the subject. Either way, your guesstimates of volume meltwater in this emerging field are too high, because sea level acceleration was also overestimated by your side. This would send a scientist back to the blackboard, but not you.
Again, the 15% reduction is between 0.15-1.5% of the whole. I cannot understand how you don’t get it.
Not mine.
No, and not my side. This is the scientific opinion.
Mr. olci: Your declaration sounds alot like “I am the science”, which is all we get from you in the end. So the “scientific opinion” is that sea level acceleration was overestimated? By scientific opinion that does not reflect your side??!!
You don’t understand alot more than why I don’t bow to declarations of your authority.
No. And this is so denierish… At least try to understand what we are talking about. The difference in meltwater here is below the error of estimations, and these estimations match well the actually measured seal level change (and acceleration). You deniers make a big circus about things you believe support your position (but you don’t understand).
Glacier retreat started WAY before any possible effect by humans.
Face it, the models are junk. Most modelling is numerical.
Modelling is, by definition, numerical. Modelling is just calculation (albeit very complicated).
We used field measurements and numerical modeling
Models are junk and you know it.
Well, I know otherwise. But you know what is infinitely more important than what I know? The fact that science is on my side here. And you can bs around with your models-this-or-that idiocy, but you can’t just dismiss science.
Well, I know otherwise.
You sir, are very funny.
Prove the models are not junk – and pass the popcorn while you’re at it.
It’s been proven. Read the latest IPCC Assessment Report.
You are getting funnier all the time. The IPCC proves nothing, they assume that they must be working because they are getting the answers they paid for.
Yes. It collects the relevant literature, ie. the proofs. Extremely good starting point. And they provide a summary that is readable for people with STEM degrees but from unrelated fields. If you haven’t read the relevant chapters from the latest AR, then, as they used to say it Down Under, you don’t know bloody no-no-nothing.
Wow, your ability to read and regurgitate is monumental.
ALL the literature? Actually they only include literature that agrees with the predetermined conclusion. Everything else is studiously ignored.
That would be the summary that was written before the chapters were finished.. The one where the chapter writers were told to make their chapter summaries agree with the executive summary.
Yes.
No. Even the IPCC summary report states not all the literature is included.
It really is amazing how delusional your average climate alarmists.
Even when shown the evidence, they still deny it exists.
IPCC? You mean the outfit whose charter precludes considering natural climate forcings? LOL.
The IPCC was set up purely to give a thin, “scientific” veneer to à predetermined political conclusion. Mrs Eight-Ball nyolci seems unaware of this.
The ability of the climate models to predict anything is absolute junk otherwise the climate modellers and the IPCC wouldn’t call them scenarios.
GIGO
I’m always surprised how ignorant you deniers are in these things. This GIGOing of yours was always one of the reasons. The “I” in GIGO, the “in”, the input is real world data and emission scenarios. This is definitely not garbage.
Emissions scenarios are definitely garbage.
Scenarios are just scenarios, you genius.
Scenarios are based on unproven CO2 warming conjectures.
So yes, they ARE garbage…..
No more relevance to this planet than games like SimCity. !
They are scenarios. They are also completely impossible in the real world. That’s garbage anywhere except the world of climate scamming.
Use cases are what they should be called.
And averaging the dozens of model outputs to forecast the future based on guessed (aka scenarios) and turning the world over based on those charts.
Yes, emissions scenarios are definitely garbage.
It is clear you are not a genius.
By the way, according to MENSA, I am a genius.
I am beginning to formulate a hypothesis that lack intelligence or at least a modicum of critical thinking.
Typo: the YOU lack….
As is a lot of data that gets fed into the climate models..
They are also built from the ground up on erroneous physics and science in a “not-Earth” atmosphere.
What’s garbage are the built in assumptions about how the climate works.
As to the data going in, when you carefully select and then edit the data in order to better fit the results that you want to see, that’s garbage as well.
Again, this is such an obvious sign that you are clueless. Modelling, by its very nature, doesn’t work like this.
Thank you for proving once again, that you know not of what you speak.
Read the papers of those who wrote the models. There is insufficient computing power to calculate everything from first principles, so much of the models are simplified by making assumptions.
Assumptions such as relative humidity will stay constant as temperature rises. There are no experiments in the real world, that shows that this is the case, and numerous examples of it not being true, but it was built into the models and is still there.
The number and type of clouds were also parameterized. They guess at how many clouds would exist based on the conditions.
I’m not really surprised at how ignorant you are of the things you defend, but it is a consistent pattern with you.
No. They use approximations. This is just the normal in STEM fields. Like using the formula 0.5mv^2 for kinetic energy. This formula is wrong (“falsified”) but the approximation is extremely good.
This denier trope comes up from time to time. No. There is no such “assumption”. (And it’s beside the fact here that they use approximations, not “assumptions” but has to be pointed out here, too.)
No one is dismissing the science, actually. It’s called skepticism. Yet, when those that exhibit this healthy reaction to scientific discovery they get obliterated over and over again.
If we’re just learning about melting ice, then “cool”. Yet, they missed by 50% plus. That’s more than just a “minor correction”. So much has been made of accelerating sea levels, collapsing ocean currents, Europe’s climate turning into Alaska’s climate…hyperventilation by “climate experts” should be questioned without fear of public humiliation.
All that needs to be said by these “experts” is, “We have much to learn. We really don’t know with any certainty what the future holds. And we need 100 to 200 years of data to be able to discern naturally variability and human effects.”
And this message needs to be as loud, and frequent as those droning on about “the worst is yet to come” narrative. But, this won’t happen.
strativarius has just done that.
Yeah, really.
No, they didn’t. Charles has done what he can to obfuscate this, but the difference has been stated, multiple times, to be 9-15%. This is minor.
Well, no. While it’s not immediately obvious from the blog post above ‘cos it wouldn’t look good in a denier hit piece but the major contribution from land ice to sea level change is not meltwater but glacier calving, furthermore the most important sea level change factor is the thermal expansion of seawater. This 9-15% diff in meltwater specifically is minor in this game.
So back to skepticism:
You have to know more to rightfully call yourself a skeptic. The same applies to Charles.
When the calculated results are resolved to 7 decimal places, 9% to 15% is huge.
Not really, and again, direct melting is minor compared to glacier retreating, and that is minor compared to thermal expansion. This difference is minuscule.
And the lies come thick and furious. Strativarius dismissed models, he did not dismiss science. That’s what you keep doing.
The 9 to 15% was the actual amount of melt water compared to model predictions.
Fascinating how your story changes every time one of your planks gets sawed off.
Strativarius can’t just pick what he likes from science. This is not the way it works.
Jesus Christ, this is why it’s so hard to debate deniers. For all the wrong reasons. The exact quote from the paper, bold is mine:
By the way, you have elegantly ignored the actual great sources of sea level rise.
Models are not science, if you weren’t so ignorant, you would know that.
Yes, we deniers stick to the facts. We aren’t free to make stuff up, the way you do.
You deniers live in a bubble here where you convince yourselves about any bs that you like. Models are ubiquitous in modern science, of course. This almost religious rejection of models here is only due to the fact that the extremely powerful fossils lobby has to come up with something to reject science. Do you reject orbital mechanical calculations? Because those are extremely similar models (mutatis mutandis) to the ones in climate (a big system of differential equations and a step-wise solution, this is basically modelling.). I bet you had no clue about this.
Models are in science, but they aren’t science. Microscopes are used in science, are they science, or just a tool?
There is no complete rejection of all models, that’s your imagination in action again. Rejecting the general circulation models because they have been demonstrated to be faulty, does not mean one rejects all models.
Orbital mechanics is 10’s of thousands of times simpler than climate models are. Just how ignorant of reality are you?
Models are obviously part of science regardless of your mental gymnastics here.
🙂 You try to eat your cake and keep it, again.
While the last part is false (ie. there’s no scientific demonstration), even if it was true, you wouldn’t be able to reject models in general because a demonstration would mean a certain model is faulty. Because again models are just approximate solutions to big systems of differential equations.
Dunning-Kruger strikes again 😉
You are not debating. You are blasting a position based on belief.
Imposing rule: Never engage in a battle of wits with the unarmed. They never know when they have lost.
I am disengaging from your hogwash.
Outside of this blog the hyperventilation about accelerating sea level rise or a collapsing AMOCs is extensive. It comes from the “we are right because we say so” crew and any dissent comes with a barrage of attacks on one’s character. You should know this, too.
9-15% when you’re trying to support the claim that sea levels will rise 3 to 4 mm per year by the end of the century instead of the historical rate of < 2 mm per year can mean a considerable change in policy. Like, “not spending on an impractical energy transition towards shoring up the coast line”. Seas have been rising for quite some time, as has the inaction. (I also believe there is the likelihood of a 67% overstatement noted above.)
Or, when someone tells you that non-native grasses on Maui pose significant fire risk you do something about it like “remove the non-native grasses”.
This crew has gotten way out over their skis and they show no intention of moderating. History is littered with people on crusades that pay no price for being wrong. This is another one of those crusades.
Seas have been rising for quite some time due to human induced climate change, and this is accelerating. Even due to the paper you triumphantly cite above.
“Seas have been rising for quite some time due to human induced climate change, and this is accelerating.”
A totally evidence-free conjecture….. a scientifically baseless statement.
Seas were rising well before humans could have had any influence on them.
There is no evidence of any acceleration.
New Research Finds ‘No Statistically Significant Acceleration’ In Global Sea Level Rise
There is no evidence humans have had any influence whatsoever on sea level.
Human induced climate change started 250 years ago?
Despite the fact that there is no real world evidence of this acceleration, the models say it must be happening, so it is.
No. It started around 150 years ago. It was already noticeable in the 1910s.
Funny how the almost minuscule amount of CO2 increases 150 years ago had almost 10 times as much warming affect as the much, much bigger increases occurring today.
A very good refutation of the religious belief of some, that CO2 controls climate.
BTW, the Little Ice Age ended about 250 years ago. What caused the first 100 years of warming?
Goodness gracious. The data is overwhelming that seas started rising well before CO2 concentrations could have had anything to do with this.
see above.
CO2 concentrations have nothing to do with rising sea levels, which started showing signs of increase as early as 1820. Anthropogenic emissions were insignificant during that time because 1) fossil fuels didn’t exist in quantities of any sort and 2) there weren’t that many people to burn it.
All of the studies you cling to point out that CO2 induced warming didn’t really start until 1960. Everything before that was the result of something else. Particularly before 1900.
Surely, you have to know this. Otherwise, why attempt to show acceleration from a historical rate?
Wrong, the warming started before. There was one counteracting factor, (fossil originated) sulphur based aerosols masking the sun. This caused a temporary cooling mid 20th century.
No one disagrees that warming started earlier than 1960 however, warming from anthropogenic emissions are not easily discernible from natural warming prior to this period, and clearly not discernible, at all, prior to 1900, which saw steadily rising sea levels for at least 50 years, and likely 80 years, to that point.
Seas have been rising for a very long time. CO2 emissions from burning fossil fuels didn’t start this. Thus, reducing, or eliminating fossil fuels (a ridiculous endeavor), will do nothing to stop this. Which is my original point. You better start shoring up the coast line.
Plenty of resources to do this if you would just revert cash thrown at the fools errand called “Net Zero” toward more effective methods of mitigation and adaptation. I believe Florida is doing this. If so, good for them. Smart.
Well, according to science, you’re wrong. And this is not something you can just dismiss out of hand.
This is one of those things deniers often come up with, as if putting the word “natural” would just magically make it self evident, something that requires no proof. In science you have to prove your assertions. Now we know that the “natural” (ie. free from human influences) climate would show a very slight but already measurable cooling (due to mainly the Milankovic cycles), and the divergence started in the second half of the 19th century.
There is little evidence discerning anthropogenic warming from natural warming prior to 1960. This is not to say that there was no warming from increasing CO2 concentrations prior to 1960. It’s the ability to separate one from the other.
No one, can say, honestly, that anthropogenic sources are the only, or primarily the only, warming in the temperature record prior to 1960. The ones telling us that they can discern this are highly partisan, searching for the next grant so that they can keep their jobs, or secure tenure.)
Your comments on the use of the word “natural” is odd. What you are saying is climate is some pristine thing with no natural variability? Solar cycles? ENSO? AMOC ebbs and flows? Really?!
Next topic? This one has played itself out.
Actually, you can say that. This is why you should read scientists. It’s been proven that the warming in the last 150 or so years is due to the increase of atmospheric CO2.
No, I’m obviously not saying that. This is why it is important to comprehend the text read. I only claimed (as it is normal in science) that you have to prove that something is “natural”, you can’t just assume it is. You can’t just say that “the world is coming out of the Little Ice Age” etc, the usual denier tropes. These all need proof. And now we have evidence to the contrary, we know that the recent warming is not “natural” (in the sense that it is not independent of human causes), and the “natural” would look different (slow cooling). With all the variability on top of it, of course.
You deniers are always working hard to come up with everything that is not CO2. As if you have a predetermined position and you only seek science to support that… No, neither of these (and all the others) explain warming, and some of these are just temporary shifting of thermal energy around the system (eg, ENSO), the others show no sign whatsoever of changing or they change in the wrong direction (eg. Solar cycles).
see above
nyolci doesn’t do real world data.
I said the models are junk…
strativarius has just done that
No he didn’t
Like the rest of his coven, nyolci is convinced that models are science, and he won’t entertain any contrary facts.
“You have to know more to rightfully call yourself a skeptic.”
Bogus. BS alarm at high decibel level.
Such fun! It’s not what you don’t know that matters, it’s what you think you know and don’t which is so dangerous.
You don’t know otherwise, you believe otherwise.
The actual, real world data disagrees with you.
It doesn’t matter whether they are junk or not. They are useful.
Useful for scaring willing politicians into sending billions to the climate modelers so they can spend weeks in exotic locales living the high life while attending conferences with the other scammers.
In a way, niccy is correct.. the change in Greenland run-off modelling is totally inconsequential.
That is because the current sea level rise of less than 2mm/year is totally inconsequential, and is basically unnoticeable in most places.
So any change in modelled contributions is also totally inconsequential.
Very complicated, and every time it’s compared to the real world, completely wrong.
I think that the fashionistas on the runways would disagree with you. The fantastic models of aircraft, ships, cars, trains, buildings, etc, show otherwise. It is, in many cases, a good idea to think about what you are going to type before you type it. Then read it and think about it before posting it.
And you were supposed to be an engineer…
You were supposed to be a human being…
Like most of his political persuasion, he defines humanity by how well you agree with the party line.
And you are so charitable and helpful! If you could stop drooling on your keyboard, we might listen.
You deniers never listen. You always react to irrelevant things, elegantly papering over the substance.
There is NO substance behind the nonsense of CO2 warming.
paper mache is your MO. !
Tell us what we “deny” that you have ever been able to produce scientific proof or evidence for…
That mean you have to actually produce it, not just some vague nebulous reference you have never read or understood.
Your problem is, folks here listen too well, they help me deconstruct your nitwit posts. I find them charitable and helpful, looks like another projection by the CliSci alarmist.
That’s funny coming from the guy who rejects outright any fact that doesn’t support the party line.
This is bold from a guy who’s celebrating the political interference from Trump, the lawfare against Mann etc. BTW I never reject facts, I only reject anti scientific bs.
“I only reject anti scientific bs.”
Disproven by your posts.
Wow, the kool-aid is strong with this one.
There is no political interference from Trump.
What lawfare against Mann. He’s the guy who’s been using everyone in sight, and losing on a regular basis.
You reject any fact that doesn’t support what you want to believe.
😉 You openly celebrated it.
As opposed to?..
Either way, all GIGO until proven otherwise.
Yuck. Why get on somebody’s website and call them names. Make your own site. If people think it’s better, you’ll win. Those words were just lazy. Are you snuggled up in a warm, dry place tweaking computer model code for the professor?
I was actually charitable and helpful. He has to know that his illusions with science are just, well, illusions. This is the kind way. BTW this is not his website, to be correct.
You sure you haven’t called the host a name? It’s what you do, do ya really keep track? Or do you model out your insult comments?
The host is Anthony, right? As far as I can remember, I haven’t. Buy the way, calling a doofus a doofus is not an insult, it’s a statement of fact.
So you have no qualms in being called a scientifically illiterate irrelevance.
Mr. 2000: Oh, he insists!
He’s proud of it.
So “the science” is not settled, and why the claims that Greenland ice melt will flood the world?
Exactly. The science of melting thick ice sheets and glaciers are not settled to the fine detail. We know much, and we know the limits (ie. you can’t cheat Thermodynamics, if temperature goes up, ice will melt). But as for the exact operation of the process is still not known in the detail required. See? Scientists tell you when they don’t know things. When it’s not settled. But it doesn’t mean you can just bs around. What scientists do know much about melting.
About melting, perhaps, but refreezing? I knew about glacier refreezing back in the 60s.
Amazing how everything claimed by the climate alarmists, turns out to be not settled when you look at it closely.
Not only “not settled”, but mostly just verifiably WRONG !
Not merely wrong but invariably wrong in one way only, to shore up the CAGW Lie.
Keep quiet, I know you just pretend to be an idiot. Unlike most of the guys here.
And once again, when presented with facts it can’t refute, the bot resorts to insults.
If you had listened carefully you would’ve noticed this wasn’t an insult to bnice. This is a reference to a debate where I noticed that he purposefully avoided a graph from a source he had cited himself. He was obviously aware of the fact that he was wrong, while continuing pushing the narrative. And this awareness distinguish him from most of the denier mass, they are usually just plainly stupid and ignorant.
Many posters here have STEM related degrees or higher.
You are obviously not one of them.
Keep quiet until you can catch up.
I doubt he even has a high school diploma.
Everything? Who talked about everything?
I talked about everything, and I am correct.
If we are in the beginning stages of understanding, then the intelligent researcher refrains from making predictions/projections. However too much money is at stake, to wait for understanding. So they go ahead tell others that the world has to be re-configured to their standards, even though they know they are lying.
As always, you would be better off if you had a clue about this.
Translation: I can’t refute anything being said, so I’ll fall back to flinging insults. Perhaps that will make Mummy proud of you.
Exactly. And I don’t have to. This is not my job. It has been done by scientists who are actually knowledgeable in the field. Read them.
No, everything being said is correct.
You have produced absolutely NOTHING to counter any of it…
… except petty and baseless rhetoric.
The clowns passing themselves off as “climate scientists”, are generally NOT very knowledgeable.
If you had read some of their work.. you would know that.
Run and hide, you have presented no facts that have not been refuted, the rest of you “arguments” consist of little more than insulting those who don’t worship as you do.
Actually.. if you look back.. he/she hasn’t presented any facts .. at all !
AKA a flame warrior. A person who disrupts a chat for entertainment purposes and usually by trying to elicit emotional responses.
I’m sure Charles appreciates being called a “doofus” by a scientifically ignorant nobody. !
I’m totally a doofus.
Ok, but you still write some pretty good articles! 😉
And I guess yapping chihuahuas don’t concern you. !
We are all doofuses… or is it doofi? Or doofen? I’ll just tack that on to deplorable garbage!
And here I thought we were all Bozos on this bus…. 🙂
Wrong. I think some deniers know exactly what they are doing. Anthony, Judith Curry, and a few others. And this makes it even worse.
Yes, Charles, you totally are a doofus, but we love you anyway. 🙂
This is gay and brown nose at the same time.
Let’s look at the Peterman Glacier.
For the period 2000 – 7000 years ago it didn’t exist beyond its grounding point.
Since things got cold about 1500 years ago, the terminal is some 60 – 80km past the grounding zone, similar to where it still is today.
Many glaciers around the world didn’t even exist before the end of the MWP and the cold period to the LIA, which we have thankfully managed to crawl out of.
How about looking at the Rhone Glacier? A much more characteristic representative of how glaciers behave in the last 150 or so years.
Glacial retreat started WAY before humans could have had any possible effect.
Until a scientific hypothesis has been tested via direct data measurements it is merely a theoretical muse by a scientist and is not the basis for any reputable advice to third parties, least of all governments.
The scientific method goes like this
Hypothesis –> Conjecture
Theory –> Mathematical Functional Relationship
Experiment –> Confirmation of Functional Relationship
Climate science ceased work at the Hypothesis. They simply said that we can conjure models that show the conjecture is possible. And, since we declare it possible, then the Precautionary Principle tells us that spending untold trillions of dollars and overturning current economies is a worth goal. Send us and our financial cronies the money!
“goes like this” -> “starts like this”
Climate science seems to have gotten lost at the same point social sciences got lost. Too many tools not enough “good data” from experiments, and no easy-to-execute experiments to collect “good data”. Who the heck over the age of thirty wants to haul s— across a glacier.
Social science has not progressed to a measurable experiment stage. There are not functional relationships that can be verified. Not there ever can be.
Data is dangerous. Too many beautiful theories have been sunk on it’s treacherous shores. That’s why it’s best to avoid data altogether. That way you can be proud of the fact that your beautiful theory has never been shown to be wrong.
Data is dangerous. Data refutes theories that you have staked your career on defending.
Better to keep your world nice and clean and just rely on theory and supposition.
The climate alarmists don’t have time to wait for the models to be verified. They have bank accounts that need padding.
‘Climate models traditionally treat bare ice as an impervious, high-density substrate with no capacity to retain water.
I would like to ask whether those that decided to treat bare ice thus have ever actually been on snowfields at times of year when melting occurs during the day?
I have, having been a keen skier for 30 years. Whilst after heavy rain, you may end up with a smooth surface, during dry periods of freeze-thaw, you find quite significant holes developing in the snowfield, which will act obviously as collectors of any water flowing via gravity across the surface.
To suggest that people have the capability to model snow/icefields without having spent several years actively observing them in real life is like saying that 5 year old children are ready to plan for the behaviour patterns of less than saint-like adults.
Madness, in other words.
As for drawing up models without measuring clearly measurable parameters such as glacial outflow from certain rivers/melt channels, to say that that represents ‘science’ is just laughable.
It represents worst practice and should be subject to considerable censure from those who are supposed to ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent wisely, frugally and channeled to those with sufficient skills and experience to merit receiving taxpayer investments.
I predict a bloody cold Winter this year.
I hope so. I finally bought a snowblower last year. Naturally, the weakest snow season since I’ve lived here. Only got to use it once, and I went out in the storm to make sure I got to use it before the snow melted.
Bu the way – the snowblower was great fun!
I do remember as a child that pouring water onto ice on surfaces produced slush which froze.
Yes I remember waking out on the snow on a winter morning and finding it had a definite crust on it. Wonder where that came from.
I hate skiing on that crap.
The contribution of Greenland Ice Sheet meltwater runoff to global sea-level rise is accelerating due to increased melting of its bare-ice ablation zone. There is growing evidence, however, that climate models overestimate runoff…
So, it’s bad… but not quite as bad as the models suggest?
It’s usually the other way round.
They haven’t finished fiddling with the raw data yet.
It is not worse than we thought.
yet. 🙂
Interesting.
Back to 1978: The expectation of a coming ice age is so important that they beamed Spock down from the Enterprise to play “Leonard Nimoy” as narrator of a documentary about it, from which this clip was taken. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Vj4s_GFjs
Then in 1979: The “Charney Report” is generated, proposing that emissions of CO2 will drive warming. The estimate of “ECS” is ~3C.
https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/12181/chapter/1#iii
What changed in one year? Surely not “the science” in the sense of observational data and confirmed understanding of natural processes. Maybe there is more to this flip of the narrative in such a short time, as if a heavy hand started pushing the academics to start persuading the population against fossil fuels. Just a thought.
To be fair, In Search Of, wasn’t a science show. Really wasn’t much science involved.
Stephen Schneider was an eager participant…
You’ve proven my point.
To be even more fair, there wasn’t much science involved in the recent NASEM report either. 🙂
Metric of the day…
-1 == nyolci
He’s today’s sacrifice.
“useful idiot” would be a more accurate description.
not even useful. ! The very opposite, in fact.
subsurface liquid meltwater is a way over my head.
I thought it was under foot?
A foot over his head? 🙂
Sounds uncomfortable. 😉
No way I can put a foot over my head. !!
I knew a girl once who could…. 🙂
“Instead of every drop of meltwater rushing downhill to flood the coastlines, as we’ve been warned for decades, large portions soak into the porous bare ice, freeze again at night, and never reach the sea.”
Any implications for ice core studies?
First off, ice core studies are taken from areas where there is little, if any yearly melting.
Secondly ice core studies only study those areas of the core beneath the point where the snow has been compressed into ice.
To answer your question: No.
I was more referring to historically. Since some prior epochs were warmer than today, perhaps the ice at lower levels was some of this re-frozen meltwater, which perhaps could contaminate the dating and composition.
Yes. It is an unquantifiable variable.
The common thread is money. Simple as that. Hubris? Not so much.
Money can go to heads…
“Do you know who I am”?
True, but I define hubris a bit differently. I’m sure there are many out there that think we can actually influence this outcome, actually reduce the temperature to where it was 150 years ago. I know a few. These people are nitwits. The politicians and bureaucrats however know they can’t and don’t really care, regardless of what they say in public. For them it’s all about relevance and the remuneration that comes with it. I just don’t want to give these people credit for wanting to do positive things because “they are the ones we’ve been waiting for” (I think Obama said that once) when I strongly believe they could care less. Maybe I’m wrong. Who knows.
I don’t follow your “Do you know who I am” comment (I think).
Climate modeling means never having to say you’re sorry. That also explains that career love affair by politicians from Massachusetts.
Less runoff? Apparently less enough to keep global sea level rise rate from increasing above the 1-2 mm/yr rate observed by tide gauges going 150 years and by coastal sea level studies going back 6,000 years.
“while climate models predict +9% ± 46% to +47% ± 32% higher runoff than observations.”
All deploying the identical physical theory. All producing large discrepancies from one another.
Only in climate so-called science can one manifest such imprecision (not even talking accuracy here) and still get away with an intact reputation.
I recently read Christopher Essex’s 1991 paper, “What do climate models tell us about global warming?” first page below.
He clarifies the problem of tuning in discussing ad hoc conservation laws, “ad hoc constructions that have no basis in any sort of deterministic theory. These constructions are known as parameterizations.”
These parameterizations tune the model to the present climate, and are then assumed to remain constant across the future climate.
Each model is tuned to have a unique set of ad hoc invariants, different from every other climate model and held constant across every futures simulation.
It can be no surprise, then, that models disagree about the future climate. Or about the workings of the present climate.
He finishes with this absolutely dead-on observation: “With all due credit to what has been and will be accomplished with climate models, we must heed the warning made by LAX (1987) in a similar context: “.. there is a danger that the computation becomes a substitute for a non-existent theory“.“
UAH shows the only atmospheric warming in the last 45 years is from El Nino events.
Climate models CANNOT predict El Nino events…
.. therefore that are totally useless at predicting anything to do with climate.
Red thumb.. Please produce one climate model that can predict El Nino events. !
Pat , I assume you have listened to Roy Clark’s great podcast
Roy Clark: A Nobel Prize for Climate Model Errors | Tom Nelson Pod #271 – YouTube
I didn’t know about it, thanks. I’ll take a look.
Roy’s analysis of Manabe’s work is terrific. Thanks, b.
“In 2007, prominent scientists announced the Arctic would be “ice-free by 2013.” Journalists at the Guardian and Independent ran breathless headlines about “the end of Arctic ice.””
Photo of headline would be terrific.
“The study itself is an impressive piece of field science. The authors lugged Doppler instruments across glaciers, drilled cores, hammered bamboo stakes into ice, and collected thousands of hours of data.”
Agree. I’d feel a lot more sympathy to their cause if
A) the computer models showed good historic increases in accuracy
B) more researchers chose to lug instruments across the ice sheets instead of sitting in a warm, well-lit place in a comfy chair tweaking the code to get what the headline professor seems to be looking for.
“Climate models traditionally treat bare ice as an impervious, high-density substrate with no capacity to retain water.”
Geez, even Wikipedia knows better.
Moulin: a vertical shaft of water (named from the French for a loud mill) that “can reach the bottom of the glacier, hundreds of meters deep, or may only reach the depth of common crevasse formation where the stream flows englacially.” {my bold}
This report adds that the meltwater can freeze again. Search using “glacier moulins” for images and videos; listen for inaccurate parts
This mechanism should be examined in light of some strange noble gas signatures in Greenland meltwater we found in a 2015 GRL paper. Partial freezing of water that has already equilibrated with air could increase the Xe content while decreasing the Ne content. Very interesting.
Niu, Y., Castro, M.C., Aciego, S.M., Hall, C.M., Stevenson, E.I., Arendt, C.A. and Das, S.B., 2015. Noble gas signatures in Greenland: Tracing glacial meltwater sources. Geophysical Research Letters, 42(21), pp.9311-9318.
Some eco warrior was caught publicizing how much surface ice melted during the day while neglecting to mention it all refroze in situ overnight.
Well north of the arctic circle those days are much longer than the nights during the melting season. See what happened this year at the Freya glacier:
https://www.foto-webcam.eu/webcam/freya1/2025/05/28/1230
https://www.foto-webcam.eu/webcam/freya1/2025/07/28/1230
It might be of some relevance that these models tend to neglect other potential causes for Arctic warming – most notably ocean cycles.
I thought that trends in Arctic ice (land or sea) was well measured since the satellite age!?
More Unsettled Climate Science:
Enhanced West Antarctic ice loss triggered by polynya response to meridional winds – Nature Geosciencenature.com
Greenland ice sheet runoff reduced by meltwater refreezing in bare ice – Nature Communicationsnature.com
Greenland ice sheet climate disequilibrium and committed sea-level rise – Nature Climate Changenature.com
Meltwater ponding has an underestimated radiative effect on the surface of the Greenland Ice Sheet – Nature Communicationsnature.com
In a way, it’s irrelevant. Greenland could experience a bump of volcanic activity, water would still precipitate everywhere else.
The real questions are
whether sea level already shows something anomalous (which doesn’t seems to be the case), and whether the feedback loop on that is negative (which is generally assumed and seems to be the case) or positive.But this little episode does demonstrate the general quality of “models”, sure. The methodology evolved from justifying one’s funding by the show of importance seems to be «ask questions until a shadow of some scarecrow appears, then stop asking questions and run with it».
You mean somebody in the climate community went out and did actual, robust science?
I’m shocked, I tell you… shocked!
😉