Today is a monumental win for climate skeptics
Today’s decision by the Environmental Protection Agency to remove the Carbon Dioxide Endangerment Finding represents a pivotal shift in America’s approach to climate policy—one rooted in evidence, not ideology. For years, this “finding” has served as the legal justification for an array of costly, far-reaching regulations targeting everything from our nation’s power plants to the cars we drive and the energy bills we pay. Its removal is a direct response to mounting evidence that the basis for this rule was always more about speculative modeling and political maneuvering than sound science. Watch the announcement here:
The Carbon Dioxide Endangerment Finding, first enacted in 2009, rested on claims that rising levels of CO2 posed a dire threat to public health and welfare. These claims, trumpeted by alarmist voices in the media and bureaucracy, relied heavily on computer models that have since proven to be chronically inaccurate, consistently forecasting more warming than actually observed. In the years since, we’ve witnessed a remarkable gap between dire projections and reality: global temperatures have not followed the “runaway” path predicted, and extreme weather events—despite breathless coverage—remain well within the range of historical variability.
Yet while the U.S. was tying itself in regulatory knots, China and other major emitters continued to expand their coal-fired power generation, wiping out any hypothetical benefit of America’s self-imposed restrictions. According to multiple independent sources, China has increased its annual CO2 emissions by over 70% since 2005 and now burns more coal than the rest of the world combined. The idea that the U.S. could “lead by example” and coax the rest of the world into similar sacrifices has been thoroughly debunked by the facts on the ground.
The real-world effects of the Endangerment Finding were felt not in the climate, but in American households and businesses. Energy prices rose, manufacturing jobs fled overseas, and everyday citizens bore the burden of expensive, symbolic gestures that did nothing to alter the climate trajectory. The American people deserve policies that produce measurable results, not more of the same costly theater.
By removing the Endangerment Finding, the EPA is signaling a long-overdue return to rational, evidence-based policy. This action acknowledges that CO2 is not a pollutant in any meaningful scientific sense but a fundamental component of life on Earth—one that, at current atmospheric concentrations, has proven benefits for plant growth and agriculture. The change is not about neglecting environmental stewardship; rather, it’s about discarding unproductive policies and focusing on real solutions grounded in evidence, innovation, and economic reality.
The Role of WUWT and Climate Skeptics Over the Past 25 Years to Reach This Point
Today’s announcement did not happen in a vacuum. It is, in many respects, a testament to the perseverance and integrity of climate skeptics who have spent decades challenging the so-called “consensus.” For over 25 years, voices from outside the mainstream—scientists, meteorologists, engineers, and informed citizens—have raised legitimate questions about the certainty and direction of climate science and the wisdom of policies derived from it.
Watts Up With That (WUWT), which I founded in 2006, has played a key role in this effort. WUWT has provided a public platform for data-driven scrutiny, extended quotes from source material, and open debate on climate claims that were often presented as “settled science.” Over the years, millions of readers have turned to WUWT as a resource for honest analysis and transparent discussion, rather than alarmist dogma and political posturing. Through its detailed posts and vigorous comment sections, WUWT has empowered a generation of climate realists to ask tough questions, demand accountability, and resist the intimidation tactics of those invested in the status quo.
Perhaps nothing better illustrates the necessity of this skepticism than the Climategate scandal of 2009, where a trove of emails from prominent climate scientists exposed a charade disguised as science. The communications revealed attempts to manipulate data, suppress dissenting views, and stonewall requests for transparency—all in the service of defending a narrative rather than advancing understanding. Climategate confirmed what many skeptics had long suspected: that the so-called consensus was enforced through politics, not evidence, and that open inquiry was often treated as a threat rather than a requirement of science.
From the outset, climate skeptics were dismissed as “deniers” and painted as outliers, even as they brought forth data and analysis that contradicted the doomsday narratives dominating headlines. They questioned the overreliance on models with poor track records, the manipulation and cherry-picking of temperature datasets, the politicization of research funding, and the relentless conflation of weather with climate. These challenges were often met not with scientific debate but with ad hominem attacks and attempts to silence dissent.
Yet it is precisely this skepticism—this refusal to bow to groupthink—that has preserved scientific integrity and prevented far worse policy mistakes. The tireless work of independent analysts, bloggers, and organizations like The Heartland Institute has revealed errors in climate data handling, exposed conflicts of interest, and demanded transparency in the review and publication of climate research. Skeptics have consistently pointed out that climate is an immensely complex, poorly understood system, not a simple machine governed by one trace gas.
Over time, many of the arguments made by skeptics have proven prescient. The failure of climate models to accurately predict temperature trends, the non-materialization of the “hockey stick” catastrophe, the persistent downward adjustments to estimates of climate sensitivity to CO2—these have all vindicated a more cautious, critical approach to climate science. Importantly, the skeptical community’s insistence on open data and reproducibility has forced a grudging shift toward greater transparency in mainstream climate research.
Today, as the EPA walks back one of the foundational rules of American climate policy, the importance of these skeptical voices can no longer be ignored. Policymakers are beginning to realize that real progress requires confronting inconvenient facts, not suppressing them. The narrative has shifted from unquestioning acceptance of alarmist predictions to a more mature, data-driven conversation about climate and energy. The very arguments once ridiculed as “fringe” are now being echoed in the halls of government and public policy.
None of this would have been possible without those who dared to speak up and challenge the narrative, often at great personal and professional cost. I am proud to be one of the many who stood up and actively worked against it. I am thankful for the words of encouragement and the pledges of support to WUWT through donations and subscriptions, plus the support of generous private donors (you know who you are) that allowed us to continue the fight. The removal of the Endangerment Finding is, in many ways, a victory for those who believe in scientific rigor, open debate, and policies that serve the public interest—not just political expediency.
As we move forward, it’s crucial to remember that skepticism is not the enemy of science; it is its engine. Only through open inquiry, constant questioning, and a willingness to confront dogma can we ensure that climate policy remains grounded in reality and truly serves the nation’s needs.
I will have a follow-up post for tomorrow. For now, Charles and I are taking the rest of the day off. We’ve earned it – Anthony
Oh, one last thing; a personal message to Dr. Michael Mann:

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Wonderful!!!
Yep. totally unexpected and seems to have been avoided by all news outlets I’ve seen. But we’re not out of the woods yet. Far too limited and not even enacted yet.
They foolishly go for a “public consultations” after two generations of the public have been indoctrinated with the climate booolsheeet.
They will now have 80 million “public comments” to wade through which will take, let’s say ….. 95 years, due to staffing constraints.
Congratulations to you both. A well earned afternoon off.
Of course, this will now go to the courts. But if the EPA repeal was done as Francis Menton has suggested here, it should ultimately stand.
Rud,
You know much more about this than I will ever know.
If this went to court, would the climate worriers have to show their working and prove that human emissions were the cause of the current warming as recorded by the wonky weather stations?
I can’t see how they could prove that without “the science” being thoroughly examined.
May depend on the court. I mean, wasn’t there a dude ordered to support his ex’s kid whom DNA analysis conclusively proved to be not his?
They would have to prove far more then that, which I itself would not be possible. Your question fails to ask several critical things. 1. How much warming has occured. 2. Of the warming that has occured how much was caused by human emissions of CO2? 3. Of the warming caused by human emissions of CO2 has this caused any GLOBAL increase in hurricanes, droughts, floods, tornadoes, extreme weather events? If there was any increased in said events (there has not been, and certainly not attributed to CO2) have the harms outweighed the benefits? (The benefits are massive.) ,
The benefits increase linearly to concentration levels well above anything likely to occur. These benefits are massive. Currently every crop on the planet grows 12% to 20% more food (conservative estimate) then it would if the atmospheric CO2 level suddenly dropped from 410 PPM to pre-industrial 280 PPM. (280 PPM CO2 is near starvation levels. If CO2 concentration had moved 125 PPM in the opposite direction to only 155 PPM concentration, almost everybody on the planet would starve, and almost all bio-life would cease.) Also, this CO2 caused increased production of bio-life, delivers another stupendous benefit, in that zero increase in water or land acreage is required. Additionally CO2 makes crops more drought, heat, and frost resistant – geographically expanding growing zones and growing seasons!
It would be impossible to scientifically prove, CO2 is affecting world surface temperatures, so going to court would be useless, because the court would agree with real scientists.
In the meantime, there at least 100,000 federal bureaucrats who directly or indirectly have jobs due to “playing the endangerment finding”.
Trump should fire all of them now, because they are lying low, but will rise up when “the coast is clear”
Trump should cut off any federal funds to all entities, including state governments and universities, that have been “playing the endangerment game”
The truth will be revealed by the ones who are squawking!
Likewise, it’s impossible to prove that sour milk is not caused (at least in part) by the witches. Which does not mean supporting the Sweet Milk Party or baiting its second-rate supporters to consolidate (and going after small groups of a huge army of bureaucrats one by one is baiting the mob) are the only possibilities.
Yes, there is no real evidence that CO2 has any effect on our global climate system. Based on atmospheric physics and thermodynamics one can conclude that the climate sensivity of CO2 is effectively zero. World wide trillions of dollars have been spent trying to fight climate change yet no one has been saying that there has been any improvement in the Earth’s climate. Mankind does not even know what the optimal global climate actually is let alone how to achieve it. Spending money to fight climate change is just a big waste of funds.
I wish it will stand. Mann v. Steyn says no.
You know what? If the Democrats have an announcement in their favor they rent a crowd of more than what sounds like less than a dozen people clapping for the applause lines.
Did CBS News lock the studio doors? On the flip side there weren’t any boos.
On a similar note, I just re-watched “Gangs Of New York”.
An obvious take-way is that New York Democrats have never relinquished their adoption of Tamany Hall tactics.
One stand-out line from the Tamany chief –
“the people must be controlled by all means at our disposal . . . “
Federal judge issues injunction in 3 .. 2 .. 1 ..
I am not so sure they may not want another appeal kicked up to the supreme court.
As Churchill so famously said, we will never surrender, never. CO2 is not a pollutant never was never will be. never.
The next sacred cow we must eliminate is Net Zero.
The fight for truth and honest science goes on.
Thank you WUWT you deserve full credit for continuing the good fight.
After decades of research, not one bit of science supports your religious belief. Nor can you cite anything in support of what you say
Not one bit of his scientific reply was about religion. And the main article gave plenty of support for what he states, unlike you. Learn to read.
But the primary greenouse gas is by far H2O instead of CO2 so instead of net zero CO2 emissions they should be advocating net zero H2O emissions. They should advocate the covering of all bodies of water as well as wet surfaces with plastic so that evaporating H20 does not get into the air.
Not because scientists are starting to accept these stupid ideas, but because the fringe idiots now run the government. This isn’t a win, just stupid getting what stupid voted for.
Butthurt Much?
I think my resentment is well-justified.
I think my resentment is well-justified.
You should get a resentment drain – all that silly negativity…
Take ExLax
Judging by his comments, he already does. For him, it just works better out tha top :<)
Naw, that would cause him to completely deflate.
I have a bag of lemons for you.
We think your resentment is hilarious.. ! 🙂
Spending years supporting a lie is bound to make you bitter. Perhaps therapy will help.
You must be fun at parties
Your resentment is a sign of insanity over a life critical molecule that drives life on the planet.
Did you ever take earth science in high school? Didn’t you learn about the atmospheric greenhouse effect?
I feel so sorry for people like you that have drank the leftist Kool aid.
Sounds more like a crybaby or sorry loser to me.
Bitter little man.
it must be painful that your religious cult is dying
Hey AlanJ, please see the meme at the end, it’s for you too.
Hey Anthony, I hope generations of your great-grandchildren get to enjoy exactly the future your work is helping to enable.
Me too! We’ve all been blessed by Anthony’s work and I know his grandchildren benefit, just as mine will.
Sure. By having a lower standard of living than their grandparents.
Yes, freedom, prosperity, and good health. Not the doomworld you irrationally envision.
Mr. Watts: I posted my best wishes above before I saw this. Well done!
Me too — HEY FOLKS, UPVOTE!
Rats 🙂 It would have been fun to give Alanj the highest positive vote total he’s ever had.
Mr. J: Nothing says “you lost” more clearly than trashing the progeny, right?
May your progeny enjoy comfort and prosperity as you do, and never learn that you worked to impoverish them. They may even be grateful that Mr. Watts et al. stopped you!
Great Post! Thanks.
Nobody can predict the future; augury with failed ‘chicken entrails’ CliSciFi climate models certainly can’t. However, America’s Democratic Constitutional Republic, free market Capitalism and society-wide scientific skepticism have a great track record and will continue to provide for the best tracks forward for improved conditions for mankind’s wellbeing.
Your ideologically driven, top-down socialist systems have proven disastrous everywhere they have been tried. The 100+ million killed in the 20th Century should also provide some cautionary data about top-down systems.
I will not have grandchildren nor great-grandchildren.
My kids elected not to bring new life into this world because of the alarmist crap you and so many others spouted over and over and over again.
And not one of those dire predictions over the past 40 years has come true. Not one.
Forgive me, good people, but to my eyes, AlanJ resembles the AntiChrist.
I don’t have words to express my sadness at your post.
If a virtual hug helps, here’s one from me.
Thank you, friend.
I have read many posts from many young people who have said they will not have families as they believe the world is ending due to climate change alarmism.
Very sorry to hear that your children have to look at the world you’ve helped create for them and see a future so bleak that they are afraid to bring children into it. But hey, you’ll have helped make some old rich fat dudes a tiny little bit richer and fatter, and that has to count for something, right?
Why shouldn’t old fat rich dudes get richer? Are they not living in the home of the free and the land of the brave where all laws apply to everyone equally?
You must be one of those people who think successfully working toward prosperity is bad, or you wouldn’t have posted such drivel.
Socialists believe that nobody should be allowed to have more than they do. It’s a philosophy based primarily on jealousy.
….
Russia has a lot of private enterprise billionaires.
Managed capitalism rules the country, just as in many other countries, such as all of Europe
Managed capitalism is just another disguise for socialism. The end result is the same. Those with political power get rich, and everyone else suffers.
Russia is an oligarchy- a poor excuse for capitalism.
Which definition of «capitalism» do you use? Because it sure is used as an anti-concept most of the time…
I think of capitalism as a system whereby private individuals and enterprises can invest THEIR money with the hope of profit, and allowed to keep most of it, with some going to taxes. But it needs to occur in a competitive environment- which doesn’t exist fully in an oligarchic system. Having been forced to interact with the state government of Wokeachusetts for half a century, to do my work as a consulting forester, I detest government getting involved with the real work of the world- producing goods and services, so I have little respect for socialism of any sort. Government should focus on infrastructure, defense and helping desperate people.
The future is NO LONGER bleak.
All the crap anti-science anti-CO2 laws that destroy civilisation are being removed.
PROSPERITY will no longer be held back by religious mantra.
All those scammers you suck up to getting huge subsidies for unreliable ineffective energy, will also be brought back to earth.
I’d hold off on the victory dance untill all the court cases have been completed, and pray that the Dems don’t gain majorities in 2026.
Also, this would only be applicable to the US – Governments in the UK, Canada and the Antipodes don’t seem responsive to rationality.
At some point they will have to go with the facts or face a revolution. Europe is already stirring becuase of the crazy illegal immigration boom and will not stand for the leftist agenda for too long.
Revolution? Nothing managed to squeeze any water out of that stone so far. «But surely, the next straw will break it…» Such ads for hot nothingburger sale were around for decades.
There is simply nobody both able and willing to even try.
You can only push people so far. When their children’s future is at stake they can be desperate.
CO2 is making the world better, greener and richer.
It is you and your anti-humanists who paint scare pictures of futures that can never happen, all to justify your deep seated need to control everyone and everything around you.
co2 is a trace gas it cant green anything
It can, and so does what comes out of your mouth. And I don’t mean CO2.
Only Mosh could make such a scientifically stupid comment !!
CO2 is the basis of all plant life on the planet, dolt !!
And you’re far too obtuse to understand Mosh’s point. Most who comment here won’t understand either. It’s just annoying when someone professes their ignorance so loudly.
WTF? Mosh has never had a point.
wow, who knew that Charles knew nothing about plant biology !
Notice that Mosh doesn’t even know enough science to type CO₂ using correct capital letters.
WT* is co2 ???
It’s two atoms of cobalt.
What is Mosher’s point? Pray enlighten us ignorant dolts.
I suspect that he is employing he is employing the British concept of irony.
I suspect Mosh hasn’t got a clue about anything.
That’s is what his .. and your, comments indicate.
If it is, it’s a lousy attempt.
He’s desperately trying to make fun of those here who want to believe that since CO2 is a trace gas, it can’t possibly have any impact on temperature.
Yes, he’s trying to say that since CO2 is a trace gas and can’t heat up the world it also can’t green the world. But in physics and biology, word games don’t matter.
“Only Mosh could make such a scientifically stupid comment !!”
This coming from the guy who says it’s El Nino what done it. Oh the irony.
I see you still define science as whatever your handlers tell you it is.
Coming from a guy who believes in Colluuuusion as well Biden didn’t have dementia 😉
Humans also require CO2 for critical processes. Scientific proof ancient ancestor must have mated with a plant
The Calvin cycle is essentially linear with respect to carbon dioxide, which is at a level that is adequate for photosynthesis, albeit not optimal.
Do go on though, since you can’t even do sarcasm well, and remind us all that climate is simple physics.
I’m not sure why your minder didn’t see you got out again …….
You would fail an elementary British GCSE exam in both Biology and English.
So says the Graduate in English who passed himself off as a scientist.
He can’t even pass himself off as being any good at English!
In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary… come again?
“co2 is a trace gas it cant green anything”
I see what you did there.
Bingo.
“Bingo.”
Hey, I’m still a big fan of Keyes. Haven’t seen nor heard from him in ages. I miss his work. Hope all is well with both him and you brother Charles.
Another climate alarmist who can’t even do basic science.
I hope this post actually intended to have a /sarc marking.
“I hope this post actually intended to have a /sarc marking.”
It did, but it didn’t need one. Such was obvious.
An English major who can’t (or won’t) do capitalization and punctuation surely can’t be bothered to put in the effort to do a /s tag.
All photosynthetic land plants use CO2 from the atmosphere and ground water to synthesize their food, using sunlight as an energy source.
Many experiments have shown that increasing CO2 in the atmosphere causes plants to grow faster, and also increases crop yields.
People who own greenhouses to produce food or flowers in cold climates also inject CO2 into them to speed up plant growth. They wouldn’t spend the money on CO2 if it didn’t help their bottom line.
So much for your total lack of biological knowledge. Ask any plant how important that “trace gas” is.
Lol
An Engish teacher who can’t write a proper sentence with punctuation should not comment on subjects of which he has no knowledge.
I thought you claimed to be a scientist. I hope you were trying to be sarcastic. Not your best attempt but the shock may have taken a bit of wind out of your sails.
What in the world ever happened to you? There was a time long ago when you actually seemed like a rational person.
“you’ll have helped make some old rich fat dudes a tiny little bit richer and fatter,”
Says the guy who’s promoted the trillion$ of wind and solar subsidies into the pockets of subsidy farmers.
Wind and solar subsidies have been the greatest transfer of wealth, from the middle class to the already very rich, in the history of the Republic.
I think the subsidy farmers should be forced to pay for the clean-up the garbage they built. Shovels to be wielded by the politicians who voted-open the doors of abuse.
Wind and solar now provide more than a tenth of the world’s energy, and wind and solar added more to global energy than any other source in 2023. I’m sure a lot of old fat dudes are getting rich off of wind and solar, too, they just aren’t pillaging the world and destroying the environment in the bargain.
The bright spot in this moment is that you have all ultimately failed – even repealing the endangerment finding is nothing more than a setback. The Big Terrible bill is nothing more than a setback. You can’t actually stop the ball that has been put in motion. Renewable energy sources are simply too economical not to keep pursuing, and the world is going to do it. They’ll just be doing it with the US vanishing in the rearview mirror as a technological leader.
“Renewable energy sources are simply too economical”
Now that is funny
Trump’s removal of all the subsidies and mandates means the absolute end of FAKE electricity in the USA.
Wind and solar CANNOT exist without massive subsidies and mandated use.
Nobody wants them or the disruption they cause to both the economy and the environment.
Nobody can exist on intermittent erratic electricity supply.
Even you rely totally on the dispatchability of COAL and GAS and NUCLEAR and the reliability of fossil fuel powered transport to get through your miserable, deep-seated climate-psychosis.
If wind and solar actually were the cheapest, they wouldn’t need to be subsidized.
If wind and solar were as economical as AlanJ is paid to believe, then governments wouldn’t have to force people to use them.
Like most lovers of government power, AlanJ’s only rhetorical skill involves refuting himself.
With large price increases and reduction in manufacturing competitiveness.
The US is GROWING now, what basement are you living in?
“they just aren’t pillaging the world and destroying the environment in the bargain.”
What’s the footprint of 1 GW coal-fired power plant, vs. 1 GW wind or solar. Not solar/wind rated as 1 GW. But 1 GW continuous power.
“Renewable energy sources are simply too economical not to keep pursuing…”
You’re living on another planet.
If other countries convert to wind and solar, while the U.S. uses fossil fuels and nuclear, the rear view mirror will belong to the US as it looks back at the deluded fading into poverty and misery.
Since wind is only available about 20% of the time, you would need to build at least 5 GW of wind, plus have room for all the batteries needed to store the excess until it is needed.
I have to thank you for coming on here and making us all have a good laugh at your butthurt. Where are your mates: Simon, Nail and Nick, apologies for any nitwit I might’ve missed ??
“… they just aren’t pillaging the world and destroying the environment …” And you don’t even see the irony.
Nope. No clue.
It will be interesting to see how many wind turbines and solar panels get replaced at end of life, which is not far away for many of them. If not replaced, it’s over.
Where I live (North Cornwall, UK), there are dozens of wind turbines. Every year, some of them stop turning. They simply stop. No one ever repairs them or replaces them, presumably because it costs too much, and they simply stand there ruining the landscape. This is evidence that Wind is on the way out, despite what AnalJ says.
Is that ‘Wind on the way out’ coming from AlanJ?
They’ll not be removed, either – just rot in place.
Is there any semblance of a brain cell left in there somewhere?
Probably not! The more virulent forms of the Marxist mind virus continue devouring brain cells until the host dies from forgetting to breathe!
Sadly, millions of their family, friends, and neighbors are often similarly infected; and die along with them. Some continue to survive in a zombie-like vegetative state; wandering the Earth; spreading their affliction to children and other weak-minded individuals. So sad!
They were sold off to pay the rent.
“Wind and solar now provide more than a tenth of the world’s energy”.
The actual figure is 2.8%.
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2025/06/26/bp-energy-review-2024/
Accusing me of conflating capacity and output while quoting figures for primary energy – the irony is palpable.
You can’t expect Alan to use real numbers in one of his fake rants.
You have to remember that all leftists have different definitions for common words. His definition of energy is “electricity that is produced on a sunny, windy day in an area with a large number of wind turbines and solar panels”.
“Wind and solar now provide more than a tenth of the world’s energy”
Capacity, or output? You really do need to learn the difference.
I presume that is exactly what he has done. He has confused capacity with output.
Output. Wind and solar made up over 12% of global electricity generation in 2023, according to Ember’s Global Electricity Review. I know the difference, do you?
Ember
“We’re a global energy think tank that aims to accelerate the clean energy transition with data and policy”
Another advocacy/activist group. No science or engineering expertise on the roster.
I know the difference. Do you?
Now show what the capacity is. If it’s any less than 4 times that I’d be surprised. Because ‘renewables’ output are around 25% of capacity just about anywhere on the planet. All that overbuild is a complete waste of valuable resources and money. And it ALL needs to be maintained, which costs MORE money. (a clue: solar output is 50% of capacity right out of the box due to an inconvenient phenomenon called ‘night’. Then factor in the fact that peak output only lasts a couple of hours either side of noon.. if it’s not cloudy. Wind seldom performs at peak more than around 25% of the time. Some examples: https://renewables-map.robinhawkes.com/ )
So the game is to pretend like capacity factor is a shocking revelation? Everyone designing power systems already accounts for that, it’s not a ‘gotcha,’ it’s baked into cost models, planning, and investment decisions. The fact that wind and solar still beat new fossil generation despite lower capacity factors dismantles your position, so this probably isn’t an argument you should double down on.
It’s baked in and they waste money and resources regardless.
“The fact that wind and solar still beat new fossil generation despite lower capacity factors”.
This is incorrect. From the link above, in 2024, in absolute terms, wind and solar increased by 2.36 Ej, while fossil fuels went up by 7.60 Ej.
But you still haven’t figured out that electricity isn’t the only form of energy used.
And further more, output that is actually needed?
Like most of his fellow dissemblers, he finds the highest 5 minutes, and declares that number as if it were available 100% of the time.
Sure.
Interesting graph. Just by eye, it seems to me that the proportion of electrical energy generated by Wind in China has reached a plateau or even declined slightly since 2013.
The only people pillaging the environment are those who are building wind and solar power stations.
Funny how wind and solar, as well as electric cars, always disappear when the subsidies and mandates are removed.
they just aren’t pillaging the world and destroying the environment “in the bargain.”
Bullshit.
Ever look at the cobalt mines in Africa and the Nickel mines in Indonesia?
Ever look at the hundreds of square miles of pristine environment now blanketed with solar farms. Ever count the birds, bats, whales, and other lifeforms killed by these obscenities. Ever look at how WTGs affect local environment and those concrete mounts never go away. Ever look at how off shore wind farms affect currents, wind patterns, local weather, not to mention distressing aquatic life.
Tell me again, oh Profit of Doom, that the renewables do not destroy the environment and pillage the world.
“Wind and solar now provide more than a tenth of the world’s energy …” Occasionally.
Wind and solar may, on rare occasions, produce 10% of the electricity being produced. However electricity is less than 1/3rd of all energy being produced.
Nowhere close, unless you include hydro dams….and use nameplate ratings instead of actual production….
AlanJ: “I’m sure a lot of old fat dudes are getting rich off of wind and solar, too, they just aren’t pillaging the world and destroying the environment in the bargain.”
Producing windmills and solar are worse for the environment than any other form of energy.
Question: Where do windmills and solar come from. Answer: They come from some of the most environmentally destructive mining activities possible.
AlanJ: “nothing more than a setback.”
Keep telling yourself that.
AlanJ: “Renewable energy sources are simply too economical not to keep pursuing,”
You don’t have a clue, do you. If windmills and solar are so economical, why do they need taxpayer subsidies to operate? Windmill and solar companies will go out of business without taxpayer subsidies.
Trump says windmills are terrible. He says if someone shoots and kills a Bald Eagle, they can go to jail for five years, but windmills kill hundreds of Bald Eagles and nothing is done about it. Why is that?, Trump says.
Maybe Trump will put out an Executive Order about this.
Trump also said: “No more windmills!”
Time to invest in a wind turbine/solar panel recycling and disposal enterprise?
The rich fat dudes in Australia are all living off the climate subsidies. I would really like to see that taxpayer trough disappear.
Like most socialists, he only hates people who use capitalism to get rich. People who get rich from government graft are OK, since that’s the lifestyle that they aspire to.
Biden has dementia….no need to kick him while he is down
Biden is still out there lying about conservatives. He did so yesterday. He whined that Trump was undoing all the “good” things Biden did. Biden doesn’t understand that is why Trump was elected: To undo the damage Biden has done to the nation.
Biden didn’t say anything about being named a co-conspirator in the criminal Russia/Trump Collusion Hoax, where the Obama administration, Hillary Clinton, the Democrat Party, and George Soros, tried to undermine the Democratic process.
And they are still trying, all these years later. And they are nailed dead to rights for their criminality/treason, just with the information we have available today. This is the biggest threat to our freedoms in the history of the nation. It strikes at the heart of our system. The radical Democrats and Leftwing Billionaires are trying to steal our nation out from under us.
We can’t let them do that.
You are the perfect example of a leftist democrat who live by the lie and in ball curling fear, no wonder you people are chronically miserable.
You are an old, rich, fat dude.
Many people in this world have a mere fraction of what you have, and could never aspire to anything greater if the climate scam continued.
AlanJ,
Your mother must be so proud.
Oh wait, I think she’s calling you to come up from the basement to take out the trash.
“Very sorry to hear that your children have to look at the world you’ve helped create for them and see a future so bleak that they are afraid to bring children into it.”
They only see a bleak future because of nonsense alarmism spouted by your ilk. Alarmism supported by nothing rational.
I helped create?
Wow. You need real psychological help.
You factually are not sorry about anything. Part of the Climate Syndicate’s plan is to accomplish exactly this.
The “world you’ve helped create for them” actually applies to the Climate Alarmist community. The world they’ve “created” with their numerous failed predictions / forecasts / projections, trumpeted by the captured media, NGOs and politicians, is a far cry from the real world. Lies have consequences.
I know ad homs are generally frowned upon here and this may get me deleted, but your post just proves you’re a sore loser and an all-around dick.
Spare us the crocodile tears you vile little hypocrite.
“the world you’ve helped create”
Says the idiot who is dripping in oil, on a computer, on the internet, wearing clothes made with oil and machinery constructed with oil, using electricity that comes from nat gas or coal (servers for the internet), eating food grown and distributed using oil.
And you blame it on me? Hence with that accusation, you excuse your complicity into your self-proclaimed crisis.
You are the ultimate denier.
The reason they see a bleak future is because they’ve been taught to view it as so.
Needed to be said! I also face such a possibility, seeing how lefty educators have twisted my kids’ heads around so completely that they may be past their child-bearing years before they come to their senses.
Sadly, the prognoses is, if ever.
You mean a future of prosperity and energy availability.
WELL DONE ANTHONY… and all that have assisted in this. 🙂
“What historians will definitely wonder about in future centuries is how deeply flawed logic, obscured by shrewd and unrelenting propaganda, actually enabled a coalition of powerful special interests to convince nearly everyone in the world that CO2 from human industry was a dangerous, planet-destroying toxin. It will be remembered as the greatest mass delusion in the history of the world – that CO2, the life of plants, was considered for a time to be a deadly poison.”
Richard Lindzen, Emeritus Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
A glorious future it will be. A healthy world filled with happy and healthy people.
The complete opposite of the world you want. One in which there are only a few people, most of them living in misery, while those who run the government live in luxury.
….. and the peasants still vote for them. Human genetics is a weird thing.
Hey Alan, I hope some of those whom you and your kind made their lifes misearably enough so they decided not to have children swing by your home and let you “enjoy” your contempt towards others. sarc
With pitchforks and torches?
They will, it is to be hoped, and not the hell you would leave them.
Now the true colors come out.
I hope for nothing but the best for your children and grandchildren, should you ever successfully mate.
Well met.
Exactly…warmer, wealthier, safer, healthier, abundant, greener. The future looks promising!
whiner!
Thank you to Watts for having the courage to express the truth despite hysterical assaults from the brain dead left. Congratulations – the world owes you a big debt of gratitude.
Commie, Pinko, Rat – all apply to the likes of you.
😄😆😅🤣😂
You described Alan J and his ilk well in the article. All flatulence with no substance, I would say.
“Scientists” who are on the warmunist gravy train aren’t likely to change their spots, but I might point out that a LOT of REAL scientists have been noting the illegitimate nature of the “Climate Change” scam for a very long time.
Yeah but we booted the fringe idiots out and elected Trump.
Everyone should understand that humanity is in dire straits because “you say so.” If you are not skeptical you have no business being in science.
Alan, the first problem is that you’re mistaken, there is no climate crisis and no disaster coming from global warming caused by CO2 emissions.
But the more serious problem in this context is that, even were there such a crisis, the endangerment finding has no bearing on it. All that the climate alarmists have been able to come up with, with it in place, is a program which in few words is: convert all US electricity generation to wind and solar, and at the same time convert US transport to EVs and heating to heat pumps.
In the USA! Because no-one else except for a few maniacs in the UK has any intention of following.
The program is impossible, you can’t run a country off wind and solar, because intermittency. And even if you could, you cannot do it while doubling demand due to heat pumps and EVs. And even if you could do this, you couldn’t afford the cost. And even if you could afford the cost, you’d only have hit about half US emissions, while the rest of the world continues to grow its own emissions, which are 80-90% of global emissions and rising, as fast as flat out economic growth requires.
With or without the endangerment finding global emissions are going to continue to rise. The endangerment finding is not going to affect that one way or the other.
To reverse the endangerment finding is the correct decision. But the idea that this is going to have any effect on the global climate in 50-100 years by somehow protecting the planet from global warming is frankly hysterical. There is no mechanism by which it could do that.
The only thing the endangerment finding could do and has done is arm an army of lawyers and activists with a weapon with which to try to de-industrialize and impoverish America and enrich themselves while doing nothing at all which can have any effect on the global climate. That’s now over. Time to move on to the next thing.
Something comparable happened in the UK on gender, with the Cass Report and its focus on evidence and the facts, and the recent Supreme Court ruling on sex and gender in the Equalities Act. The English speaking world is waking up from the Great Awokening.
As the poet Yeats said, suddenly it was 1900. No-one went mad, converted to Catholicism or drank absinthe any more…. Yes, this is is what it feels like to see the world waking from an uneasy sleep in which it had been stumbling towards a cliff. Just in time.
Of course, there is a crisis, and CO2 emissions are to blame.
There is a crisis, and the endangerment finding has tremendous bearing on it, because it is the legal basis of much emissions regulation in the US, which is one of the largest CO2 emitters.
The report being used as justification for repealing the endangerment finding was also penned by a bunch of hacks (whose names will be quite familiar to readers of this blog…), without input from actual subject matter experts.
“Of course, there is a crisis, and CO2 emissions are to blame.”
Sprouting anti-science bovex mantra does not help your case. 🙂
How much warming from CO2 has there been in the last 45?
Show us that warming in the UAH data without using El Nino events.
You have been brain-washed by a load of anti-science crap…
… you need to wake up to reality.
That is probably the most unscientific post you have made.
Any real crisis is BECAUSE OF this fake endangerment nonsense.
It has caused a LOT of damage to prosperity around the world. !
Take a deep breath, face facts, and admit to yourself that you are wasting your life on a blatant lie.
Your ship is sinking, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
You finally really annoyed me into a short reply to ‘Without input from subject matter experts’.
Lets see how truly expert your alarmist paid ‘subject matter experts’ have been in the real world:
Here is a challenge, AlanJ. Cite just one of your ‘climate experts’ who has been historically factually right about anything climate related. Just one.
I have covered this field since 2011, and know of NONE on any topic, however esoteric. Yet have covered micro topics like US corn crop yields, wildlife extinctions, satellite altimetry SLR, cloud feedbacks, the future climate impact on Arabica coffee..
Hansen was right in 1988, for starters. Scientists have been right about global temperature, melting ice, rising sea levels, changes in precipitation patterns, increasing severity and intensity of heat waves, ocean acidifcation, the list goes on and on and on and on. For someone who’s “covered” this field since 2011 (pretty short career for the sciences), you don’t seem to have kept up with it very well. Maybe you shouldn’t have left your cave for that short reply.
Sea ice is not melting.. hasn’t been for the last nearly 20 years.
The Arctic has, thankfully, recovered a bit from the extreme highs of the LIA and 1979, and sea life is finally starting to return.
There has been no change in the rate of sea level rise at tide gauges
There is no evidence of ocean acidification.
There has been no change in severity of weather (according to IPCC)
The only increase in temperatures in the last 45 years has come at totally natural El Nino events
The list of things that are NOT FAKE.. is empty.
I don’t perceive any benefit to humanity from Arctic sea ice.
If sea level rise is accelerating, why is this not visible from tide gauge data?
Tide gauge data do show that the rate of sea level rise is is accelerating.
RUBBISH
That’s an oscillation, not acceleration.
Yet again you prove your ignorance.
I am not certain you know what acceleration is.
Are you using one of those fakeries that splices satellite measurements onto tide data.
Here’s one based on tide gauges.
a similar reconstruction from the same author is included in the graph above.
It is certain that you don’t know what reality is.
Wow. Accelerating? Cycles, yes, but curiously the chart STOPS at 2014.
Yes, accelerating. The current rate is the highest on record for all reconstruction. The chart stops at 2014 because that is the publication date of the most recent reconstruction shown. Here is a reconstruction from Wang et al. published in 2020:
Which doesn’t resemble any tide gauge anywhere.
Alarmist are good at that sort of fakery.
And of course you could ignore all the evidence that shows sea levels were 1-2m higher than now only a couple of thousand years ago
Your climate derangement is hilarious.
Reality is more like this
An average of which tide gauge records? How were they chosen? How was isostatic SLR addressed in the records? Was it addressed? Cite the exact source of the graph please and thanks.
A more recent version of the same graph (prepared using whatever dubious methodology) shows unmistakable acceleration in sea level rise:
Oops.
Not even the IPCC agrees with you.
Sea levels are not a constant. They are different at each end of the Panama Canal (To name but one) and subject to rotational and gravitational effects of the earth and planets.
Wadham’s prediction was announced in The Guardian, to great fanfare across the world. But you’re correct, there appears to be no peer reviewed foundation to it, so it was bullshit.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/sep/17/arctic-collapse-sea-ice
Furthermore, peer review is, and has been, in crisis for many years. Richard Horton, editor of the Lancet, announced:
“The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.” (www.thelancet.com Vol 385 April 11, 2015). (My emphasis).
Mann’s hockey stick was recognised as so inconclusive it was removed from the IPCC website.
Just one of Hansen’s ridiculous predictions was:
“The West Side Highway [which runs along the Hudson River] will be under water. And there will be tape across the windows across the street because of high winds. And the same birds won’t be there. The trees in the median strip will change.” (By 2008 – 17 years ago)
Perhaps you should more critically analyse your sources.
You lot really must learn the difference between eustatic and isostatic sea level. But thanks for confirming that Wadham’s prediction was not based on any empirical research and was just one man’s personal opinion, that’s what I suspected. Completely irrelevant.
Which journal was this study of Hansen’s published in? Full citation please and thanks. Or are you referring to an anecdote from a third party recalling a casual statement Hansen made to him offhandedly in a half remembered conversation the two purportedly had many years prior?
I believe this quote from Hanson came from his testimony to Congress in 1988. So it wasn’t just cocktail party conversation.
Did it? You’ll be good enough to cite that specific passage from his testimony.
Would you have dismissed Wadhams’ prediction had Arctic ice really disappeared in 2014? Of course not, you would be praising him to the skies by now.
Your graph of tide gauge data does not show what you think it does.
As the acknowledged foremost expert on the Arctic, Wadham’s pronouncement in The Guardian reverberated around the climate obsessed community like an empirical testimony.
Until, of course, a few years later when climate realists ridiculed him (again) for his wild and incorrect prediction.
When confronted with the facts, however, you retreat back under your bridge screeching “Not peer reviewed”.
Eustatic and isostatic sea level influences are many and varied, not least the distance of sea levels from the centre of the earth which can barely be measured to tens, if not hundreds or metres, far less, millimetres.
They include, but are not exclusive to:
Glacial isostatic adjustment
Tectonic activity
Sedimentation
Volcanic activity
Melting and growth of ice sheets and glaciers
Thermal expansion of seawaterChanges in ocean circulation patterns
Changes in the Earth’s gravitational field
Flooding and erosion
Saltwater intrusionLoss of coastal wetlands and habitats
Which are all wide and varied across the planet at any given moment in time. But you deem it possible to provide an accurate assessment on SLR.
Like many other things in science, you need to understand what an informed guesstimate is.
Hanson is another revered character in the climate faithful cult who, when making his wild, unsubstantiated claims, which the rest of us said were wild and unsubstantiated, was believed unquestioningly and was splashed across the pages of any MSM publication and scientific publication daft enough to believe him.
Once again, when confronted by the facts, the cult retreated back under its bridge screeching “Not peer reviewed so he didn’t mean it”.
Meanwhile, your unconvincing response was careful to avoid any questions surrounding the peer review process itself and that Mann’s hockey stick was quietly removed from the IPPC’s website following considerable criticism from respected Physicist’s, geologist’s and Palaeontologist’s.
I’ll add that Climategate exposed the rot and deception at the heart of climate science which your cult refused to acknowledge, thereby undermining science itself and fatally damaged any claim your cult had to authenticity.
You people were stupid enough to believe that if you ignored the criticism’s and blundered along abusing science you would get away with it.
Which only goes to prove that the man in the street has a far better grasp of climate science than any scientist stupid enough to join your cult.
I actually quite plainly stated that it was wrong, yet Arctic sea ice continues its decline, exactly in line with peer reviewed projections. If you think my position is, “no scientist ever said something that turned out to be incorrect,” you are sorely mistaken.
You are conflating the deconvolution of the causes of GMSLR with observations of GMSLR.
I never said Hansen “didn’t mean it.” I said he made a n offhanded, speculative remark in response to a reporter asking him what New York might look like if CO2 doubled in the next 40 years (a date which, incidentally, has not yet arrived). This is not a testable scientific prediction that can be used to evaluate the veracity of scientific projections of future climate change. It’s just a stupid talking point for simple minded people. You can keep hammering it if you think you really got something.
This did not happen. Mann’s reconstruction did face some criticisms (a lot of it invalid), but the IPCC did not abandon the reconstruction, they continued to present newer and improved reconstructions based on the approach in later reports. Mann’s finding have been independently verified enumerable times in peer reviewed studies. But it’s irrelevant to our discussion because, as I have tried to explain, a reconstruction is not a prediction of the future, but a window into things that have already passed.
Hang on, your comment up thread made out you didn’t know where Hansen’s NY underwater prediction came from.
Then a few comments later you (correctly) ascribe it to an interview with a journalist ( if I remember, The Atlantic).
Pretending you don’t know about something when you actually do is a characteristic of a “pretender”.
So that fits.
AlanJ,
Please stop using unscientific terms and concepts. They show that you lack formal science qualifications.
Hard scientists working with climate research avoid extremism like “Arctic sea ice continues its decline, exactly in line with peer-reviewed projections.”
The word “exactly” is seldom used in proper science, partly because it is so rare that it can be shown.
Then you use wrong spelling, with “enumerable” instead of “innumerable”.
Your lack of standing to comment riddles your comments and classes you as an inaccurate amateur, not a proper scientist. Geoff S
Geoff, I take your inability to respond to the substance of my comment as a concession.
The so called hockey stick is refuted by actual data from the real world.
1) Unlike you, I don’t define data as anything that I agree with.
2) I don’t need to. All I need to do is disprove your claims. Which I have done over and over again.
3) It has, but you would have to understand math and science to understand how. What’s germane desperate attempts to latch onto any unscientific reed in order to avoid realizing how fast your religion is sinking.
Here are four scattered station records across the U.S. from NOAA.
Tell us which has the most growth in the last 20years, summer temps or winter temps.
Here is another just in case you want to say the U.S. is not representative.
You need to read the IPCC summary report.
AlanJ,
Hard scientists using math know of the importance of correct units.
Velocity is the rate of change over time of distance, with units such as metres per second.
Acceleration is the rate of change over time of velocity with units such as metres per second per second.
You claim that “the rate of sea level rise is accelerating.” That would require units of metres per second per second per second, a part of mathematics seldom studied.
There is a name for the rate of change of acceleration. It is “JERK.”
Search the term, educate yourself to a higher level before you make ignorant comments about topics where you lack learning.
Geoff S
Ah, a brand new troll-or whatever one calls blithering idiots this week. Kinda makes ya miss the old ones; new stupidities are still stupidities, only the names change.
Naaaah, this troll’s been here before spouting his shiite.
I don’t believe for a minute that the guy believes his carp. Some other agenda, but who cares?
He hopes that if he gets famous enough, somebody will start paying him more for these efforts.
A crisis that nobody can see, and all the data shows isn’t there.
But you want to believe in it, so you cling desperately to the lies you’ve been fed.
No wonder you have grown so bitter.
Translation…. la la la la la la la.
Translation…… There is because some teenage girl said so on the news.
Even Saint Greta Thunberg is quietly jumping ship as she now shills for the terrorists of Hamas.
There is a crisis, and the endangerment finding has tremendous bearing on it, because it is the legal basis of much emissions regulation in the US, which is one of the largest CO2 emitters.
The US did about 4.7 billion tons in 2024, and falling, out of a global total of about 38 billion, and rising.
You are right that the endangerment finding is the legal basis of much emissions regulation in the US. And right to say that the US is one of the largest emitters, though its contribution is rather limited compared with China. The US emits about 12% of the global total, as compared to China, which does about 13 billion tons or 34%.
But you are wrong to say this means the endangerment finding has much or any effect on global emissions. No-one is paying any attention to it, no-one regards the US as an example to be followed. The actual US reductions the finding has made have been very small. Much of the action it has justified has been either futile – for instance, the attempt to move generation to wind and solar. Or it has not reduced emissions – as with the attempt to move transport to EVs and heating to heat pumps. While failing to move the electricity they use to wind and solar.
Whatever the US does global emissions are going to continue to rise because no-one outside the English speaking world believes in the global warming narrative, and no-one else is making any serious efforts to reduce emissions. They attend COPs for two reasons, one its a vacation, two to prevent COP from agreeing anything inconvenient, like an obligatory reduction or even pause in emissions.
If you really think the endangerment finding is going to have some effect on global emissions, start with some numbers. Don’t talk about ‘tremendous’ effects. Quantify. Say what impact, and on who, and with what result on global emissions.
Starter for you. By 2035 total global emissions will be 45 billion tons a year, and the US will be doing about 5 billion. Keeping the endangerment finding and associated policies might reduce the US total by 1 billion tons.
Do you really think this is a ‘tremendous’ impact? Even reducing the US contribution by 2 billion tons a year would be trivial, according to the theory.
The US and the US economy are not the center of the world, what the US does with its emissions doesn’t matter to anyone else. We have passed peak climate. In the real world, its over.
12% of global emissions for a country that is 4% of the global population is quite an outsized impact.
Certainly not after the current admin is done with us.
USA is very much a positive example to the rest of the world.
Get rid of all the CO2 climate bovex, and welcome prosperity unfettered by what has been in the previous decades of manic climate psychosis.
The world should be paying us for all those emissions. CO2 is good for the planet, and more would be better.
The recent CO2 levels are the lowest that have ever been seen on this planet. For most of the history of life on this planet, CO2 levels have been above 5000ppm.
We are a mere 270ppm atmospheric CO2 away from a Global extinction event.
I’ll take my chances with a dramatic increase to 5,000ppm. It could not possibly be any worse than the entire planet dying.
Fifteen years ago or so, the EPA put auto CO2 emissions limits in place. In the rule making and the supporting analyses, they calculated that meeting the emissions limits nationwide would lower future temperatures by something like 0.000002 degrees.
Tell me again how much of an impact reducing CO2 is expected to have on reducing future temperatures.
I’ll look forward to your citation for that figure, please and thanks.
This is a very revealing comment.
We start out with the view that there is a crisis caused by CO2 emissions and that the endangerment finding is important because its the legal basis for a reduction in US emissions which will have an effect on climate.
But, as with most other climate activist ideas, it turns out this cannot be true, the endangerment finding and US emissions have no effective bearing on the global total of emissions.
Which is what, according to the theory, is driving the supposed crisis.
When this is pointed out with simple irrefutable numbers, the activist then switches abruptly away from the alleged physics of the issue, onto an argument from moral resentment. The US is emitting more per capita than the average. That is not fair. This is what the remark is based on.
No, 12% in relation to 4% of population is not an outsized impact. Impact, remember, is supposed to be solely about the tonnage emitted going forwards. Not historical, not per capita, China’s 14 billion tons (34%) is an outsized impact according to the theory.
The remark is revealing because its an example of this common switch of position on the part of activists. The upshot of what they want is for the US to reduce emissions while the rest of the world carries on growing theirs. They will deny this, of course, but that is the visible result of the policies they advocate and the demands they make.
If they really believed what they claim they’d not be agonizing about the endangerment finding, they’d be picketing the Chinese embassy. But are they? No, they immediately try to find ways of legitimizing what they ought to regard as planet destroying emission levels and increases from China, India, etc.
What the remark reveals is that this is not really about climate, and its not about the planet. Its finding bad reasons for what the activists believe on instinct, that America and the West are bad in some way. Point out that one alleged way is not true, and they will turn to another equally absurd claim. As here.
The only thing you are supposed to believe affects the climate is tonnage. Not per capita tons, not historical tons, not whether its for export, not how much wind and solar someone has installed. Just the tonnage.
It should be irrelevant to you whether a country does 12% of emissions with 4% of the global population, or if it does 12% with 20% of the global population. The only thing that matters is the total tonnage. But of course, that is not the only thing that matters to the activists. In fact, it doesn’t seem to matter at all.
Climate action isn’t binary, it is cumulative. Every gigaton avoided matters. Pretending US emissions don’t “count” is like arguing your vote doesn’t matter in a democracy because others are voting too. This just isn’t serious analysis.
We can work on reducing our own emissions while working with China to reduce theirs simultaneously. Shocking concept, I know.
That 4 percent of wold population (the U.S.) produces about 25 percent of world economic activity, so it should be no surprise to AlanJ that the U.S. uses more resources than the average bear.
An ‘Anyone but Trumper’ as well as a climate cult member.
michael post:
“If you really think the endangerment finding is going to have some effect on global emissions, start with some numbers. Don’t talk about ‘tremendous’ effects. Quantify. Say what impact, and on who, and with what result on global emissions.”
AlanJ post:
“12% of global emissions for a country that is 4% of the global population is quite an outsized impact.”
You failed to answer the question.
Deflection and diversion.
Since more CO2 is almost entirely a good thing, what’s the problem with that?
Regardless, something like 30% of the planet already enjoys the lifestyle you want for the rest of us. The only energy they use comes from cooking fires.
But China is not emitting 13Gt of CO2.
The (true) CO2 Emissions of China
The truth will set you free.
A search yields this:
A parable for our time!
Sadly, A.D. 1914 followed — sleepwalking into war-catastrophe. Presently, we are ~ 10 days from the next phase of the Russo-E.U. War, with all the powers-that-be itching for a bigger fight. Lest anyone presume that this is off-topic, let us assert plainly:
All major Wars still run on Oil-Coal-Gas…Uranium & Tritium & Plutonium, i.e. on Diesel-Kerosene-JetFuel. Even the drones don’t fly & kill on the wind & solar-PV!
The wise still advise: Pray for Peace; Prepare for a Broader War.
You should stop listening to Medvedev.
He tends to hyperbole. He likes to threaten nuclear war about every week or so. I guess Putin thinks that useful. It might scare some people into submission.
Thanks for the tip. I try not to listen to Putin-Medvedev, rather to review A. Dugin, for the long view. More concerned about those in the Greater West — and they are Legion — who still talk as tho an easy victory will result once the USA joins a Total War on Russia. When has that ever worked out well? [ Think of France under the Bonapartes / Germany under Wilhelm / … or under the NSDAP ? ]
“More concerned about those in the Greater West — and they are Legion — who still talk as tho an easy victory will result once the USA joins a Total War on Russia.”
I would be concerned about that attitude, too, but I really don’t see very many people espousing such a view. I have heard nobody in the United States call for total war against Russia.
As far as I can see, the only person wanting a war is Putin.
Yes, it was from the introduction to his edition of The Oxford Book of Modern Verse. Its a great summary of how social manias can unite lots of unrelated things, like absinthe and Catholicism, and also how they suddenly vanish without much trace as quickly as they came.
‘Or if they did, I have forgotten’…. That’s how someone will write about the climate and energy mania, and the other woke manias, in about 2050.
Thanks for this response & confirmation. De re —
Can the enthusiasm (pro-war mania) of 1914 not be traced to the euphoric fin-de-siecle mood?
“All civilized men had believed in progress, in a warless future, in always-increasing wealth . . . ”
Also this, re your 10-day-old post on the quarter-millennium devolution of Puritan elites in the USA, now it seems there are references to Woke-ism as neo-Puritanism popping up everywhere, but none as clear as yours.
I think he was the finest poet in English of the 20C. Auden started with promise and then descended into mediocrity. Hardy has a dozen poems that will keep him read forever, but the range is limited. No-one will read Pound or Eliot 100 years from now, just as they don’t read Robert Bridges or Browning. The Yeats that came from the Celktic twilight to write A Prayer for My Daughter, Speech After Long Silence, Sailing to Byzantium, yes, that is a legacy.
Or even this, which is just an aside from him, late in life:
But boys and girls and girls pale from the imagined love
Of solitary beds, knew what they were
And pressed at midnight in some public place
Live lips upon a plummet measured face.
From memory. The last two lines, what an imagination, and what a mastery of concision.
The Crazy Jane poems are a pity, his period of mastery was limited, but at his best he was, like Marvell, a master of the double vision which is unique to English poetry.
CO2 causes very, very few problems and those few are easily manageable.
On the other hand, CO2 has many, many benefits.
Such as?
Climate change.
CO2 does not cause climate change.
Climate and climate change are mathematical constructions.
CO2 does not do statistics.
Was there a ‘sarc’ I missed.?
Places like Death Valley and the Sahara, don’t need to be any hotter. But since few people live in those places, and AC is cheap, not a big problem.
A few tenths of a degree warmer means a tiny bit more ice melts. The extra millimeter or two of sea level rise can easily be managed.
AC isn’t that cheap in remote areas of California. I doubt it is even possible in the Sahara.
In a confined space it can displace oxygen.
There was a lake (in Africa?) that suddenly released a bunch of CO2 that the local terrain held in place long enough to kill a bunch of people.
(But none of those people died from heat exhaustion.)
The real scientists have generally been there all along, fake scientists not so much.
Change real to legitimate.
poor AJ…. diddums.. 🙂 🙂
You have never been able to show any damage or even warming from CO2.
Everything you have ever said has been baseless anti-science mantra rhetoric.
You are empty..
Alan loves the scientific approach, hates personal innuendos. 🙂
Reality has never been your friend, has it?
The truth is just a stupid idea to you.
Anyone who dares to disagree with you is just a stupid idiot.
The left hatred for humanity just flows from your pores.
How about you just slink back to the smug idiocy of SkepticalScience and crack one off for the one true gas.
So I take it you really don’t like a democracy and that your view is the only one that matters.
As you said the people voted for it and they are getting exactly what they voted for for … that is generally a good thing for democracies.
The functioning of a democracy is good for democracy. The things people vote in favor of are not always good for the country or the world – people vote for bad policy all the time. If your contention is that “the policy must be good because a bunch of people want it” I have a bridge I’d love to talk to you about.
I love how democrats love democracy so much that they uninstalled Biden and replaced him with that dummy Kamala
….. and tried to get the leading opposition candidate in jail, while claiming that the leading opposition candidate was a threat to democracy.
Don’t laugh. Some people believed it.
To the socialists, democracy is defined as them winning.
That’s Trump winning is proclaimed to be the end of democracy.
I think that is exactly right. That is the way the Democrats/socialists see the world.
They claim Trump is the end of Democracy, when he is just the end of Democrat Party Rule.
“The things people vote in favor of are not always good for the country or the world”
But in this case they absolutely are good for the USA, and if enough countries follow the reality that Trump shows to the people, the whole world will benefit enormously.
UK and Australia could do with a hefty dose of Trump REALITY and stop their moronic any-country net zero idiocy.
In other words, as long as the people vote for things the socialists support, they are allowed to vote.
Anytime they vote for something the socialists don’t support, that vote will be over ridden.
“Good policy” is in the eye of the beholder, what you call good policy someone else has the right to think is garbage.
The problem is you are a sanctimonious pratt who thinks you alone have the right to judge what is good. News flash your view has no more or less weight than anyone elses so get over yourself.
Except that AJ is totally incapable of backing his fantasies up with anything except bovex climate psychotic mantra.
Science ?? .. not in his purview
WUWT commenters: “gutting US emissions regulations is the BEST thing to ever happen!!! Anyone who disagrees with a complete moron!!!””
Also WUWT commenters: “how DARE you deem to have an opinion on public policy you arrogant clod. You think you’re smarter than everybody?”
I would laugh if I thought any of it was said with a hint of self-awareness.
The article, in your case, NAILED IT!
Rescinding the Endangerment Finding is NOT gutting emissions regulations. It will, ultimately result in removing CO2 from the list of pollutants. All the other emissions regulations will remain in place. The Clean Air Act is not in danger, the Clean Water Act is not in danger.
Without exaggeration, disinformation and misrepresentation (and a little ad hom thrown in) he gots nothing.
How dare those evil WUWT’ers have opinions based on fact and science.
He’s a genius, he knows that because his teachers have assured him. Beyond that, he has the participation trophies to prove it.
Translation: Democracy is wonderful as long as it gives the outcomes the Great Sage AnalJ desires.
Your contempt for ordinary voters (most of whom are smarter than you) is clear.
‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’
Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
Not one US citizen, outside of a small cadre in the EPA, actually voted for the endangerment finding.
It used an escape clause in the law passed by Congress. The law passed by Congress did not include anything about CO2.
So a small bureaucratic ensemble established law for the entire country without Congress and without the tax payers voting on it. Yes, I am aware of the Supreme Court’s involvement, but again that is not tax payers voting.
The US is a representative democracy. Citizens don’t vote directly on administrative findings. Congress, which is elected by the people, enacted the Clean Air Act, which explicitly empowers the EPA to regulate pollutants that endanger public health. This is normal administrative procedure. No citizen votes on FDA drug approvals, OSHA workplace safety standards, or FAA flight regulations either, but all derive from statutes passed by elected legislators.
Further the CAA doesn’t specifically list any pollutants, because that would be prescriptive. It sets out a framework for identifying and regulating “air pollutants” that may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health or welfare. You’re right to mention Massachusetts. In Massachusetts, the U.S. Supreme Court held that CO2 and other greenhouse gases clearly fall within the definition of ‘air pollutants’ under the CAA. I am not confident this attempt to rescind the endangerment finding by the current EPA can actually overcome this hurdle, we will see it play out in court.
“The US is a representative democracy.” And Donald Trump stated what he was going to do if elected. The people elected him, and elected a very small majority of Republicans to the House of Representatives. Unlike most politicians, President Trump is acting on his promises. Quelle surprise!
It does. You need to do a deeper dive. There are 6 listed and CO2 is not.
Why? Breathing CO2 is not a health hazard.
If you think it is, stop breathing. You exhale 20,000 ppm of CO2 with each breath.
I used to work for a company that helped clients obtain air permits, and the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990 did specifically name six “criteria pollutants”:
Sulfur Oxides (SO2 and SO3)
Nitrous Oxides (NO and NO2)
Carbon MONoxide (CO)
Particulate Matter (under 10 microns, called PM-10)
Lead and lead compounds (Pb)
Mercury (Hg)
The EPA later added another category of particulate matter (under 2.5 microns) called PM-2.5, since smaller particles can slip between the cilia in bronchial tubes that filter out larger particles.
The Clean Air Act also specifically listed over 100 “Hazardous Air Pollutants” (mostly organic chemicals), with specific emissions limitations for each of them, depending on their relative toxicity.
Carbon dioxide was not on either list, for “criteria pollutants” nor “Hazardous Air Pollutants”.
By the way, the most potent greenhouse gas in the atmosphere (by far) is water vapor. Does Alan J support a finding that water vapor is dangerous and needs to be banned? Since over 70% of the earth’s surface is covered by water, how does he propose preventing it from evaporating and getting into the atmosphere?
Beware of dihydrogen monoxide! /sarc
Fair enough. It was also amended to include carbon dioxide. I guess we can add pollutants as we learn the need for regulation.
Hilariously, this is a supporting argument the EPA is trying to advance in defense of rescinding the endangerment finding, and it comes from a place of such abject and utter ignorance that anyone at the EPA who endorses it should be fired for gross incompetence.
Water vapor in the atmosphere is a short-lived gas and its concentration is controlled by temperature – as a GHG it is a feedback, not a forcing mechanism. We cannot meaningfully implement any emissions standards to control human contribution to water vapor in the atmosphere except by implementing emissions standards for gases that do act as forcing agents – namely CO2 and methane.
Actually, the CAA was not amended to include CO2.
Water vapor in the atmosphere is a short-lived gas and its concentration is controlled by temperature – as a GHG it is a feedback, not a forcing mechanism.
Wrong as usual. The radiative properties of water vapour vastly exceed those of CO2, as does its concentration even in the driest atmosphere.
Why are you always wrong about everything?
That is completely irrelevant to the point I made, and does not contradict or diminish it in the slightest.
“That is completely irrelevant to the point I made,”
You didn’t make any point.. your comment was pointless. !!
In that case, why did you make that obviously false assertion?
In a complex system such as the atmospheric heat engine, there is no difference between a “feedback” and a “forcing”. That’s just a small part of your delusion.
Realistically, the only time CO2 is a pollutant is when a train carriage full of garlic eaters breathe out heavily in animated conversations.
So I guess this must happen constantly in Massachusetts?
That’s not actually CO2, which has zero odour..
…. it is generally just a load of aromatic hydrocarbons.
Is that the bridge you live under?
Alan still clueless after all this time, the planet doesn’t agree with you at all, from NASA:
Carbon Dioxide Fertilization Greening Earth, Study Finds
Excerpt:
From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study published in the journal Nature Climate Change on April 25.
An international team of 32 authors from 24 institutions in eight countries led the effort, which involved using satellite data from NASA’s Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectrometer and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Advanced Very High Resolution Radiometer instruments to help determine the leaf area index, or amount of leaf cover, over the planet’s vegetated regions. The greening represents an increase in leaves on plants and trees equivalent in area to two times the continental United States.
LINK
When are you ever going to learn!
He knows. The guy has some other agenda. Waste of his life, but probably needs the paycheck.
I can’t imagine that anyone would pay someone so stupidly inept !!
Mann still gets a paycheck, and a pretty big one. AlanJ hopes to become famous enough to get a bigger paycheck.
Well, reconsider that point in context of all the activist NGOs.
Perhaps Charles Rotter should have a look at this and get back to us after defending Mosher’s imbecilic post.
Mr. cat: Perhaps Mr. Mosher himself will look and get back to us to defend his imbecilic post (yeah, I know he won’t). Mr. J sure does!
“This isn’t a win, just stupid getting what stupid voted for.”
Ehm do you on occasion look in the mirror or grab your own nose? Carry on stupid lol
……
Chuckle! Alan J. Fringe racks up an impressive score.
There was never any scientific merit to the belief that greenhouse gases meet the criteria to be considered pollutants.
The Endangerment Finding is a classic example of left-wing science. It was science by decree, not a determination based on an exhaustive examination of the evidence. The Endangerment Finding was also a classic example of left-wing authoritarianism. The EPA should have sought authorization from Congress to regulate greenhouse gases rather than granting itself new powers.
Alana,
The first thing climate warmists will need to prove is a holistic scientific proof of what the OPTIMUM temperature for the globe. The best they currently have is that the Little Ice Age was the best temperature. ΔT’s are not proof of anything.
That isn’t a burden of proof that anyone carries, because we don’t care what the optimum temperature is. We care that the current rate and scale of ongoing climate change, caused directly by our actions, will have significant negative impacts on human societies and life on earth. That is enough to warrant action.
That’s not an answer dude, that’s an article of faith in a religion.
Remember, I said “for the globe. Your lack of caring about an optimum temperature means you believe it is not important. What a joke.
If I am about to drive off a cliff, I don’t need to determine the optimum altitude for myself and my car, I just need to decide if plummeting off a cliff is in my best interest.
For you to stop from driving off a cliff (a known likely outcome) requires only what it costs to apply your brakes. To stop the alleged climate crisis (something that is very much UNKNOWN) requires killing economies, reducing prosperity, increasing misery and killing people. Things with so large a cost it is incalculable. All for an imagined UNKNOWN future. So yeah, I think it’s reasonable to ask the question “What are we supposed to be working toward?”
None of that is required or proposed. You are being hysterical.
There is nobody out there who wants to replace cheap and reliable fossil fuel power with expensive and unreliable wind and solar?
You are a joke! You NEVER answer a direct question.
Driving off a cliff has nothing to do with what is an optimum temperature.
If you can’t answer that question then you have NOTHING to say at all about a rising ∆T that means anything meaningful.
Why don’t you simply say that you don’t know the answer to that question.
If you can’t grasp the parallel you need to think on it more deeply. I’ll wait.
Still no answer, eh? Just say that you have no idea what the globe’s optimum temperature should be.
“Driving off a cliff has nothing to do with what is an optimum temperature.”
Or atmospheric CO2 !
At least we know that with CO2 the optimum level for plant growth is some 1000ppm or more. (based on greenhouse growing levels.)
The problem is that you are driving down a road that is smooth and level for as far as the eye can see.
You are the only one who sees this imaginary cliff.
Jim,
What he can’t see is the possibility that we are headed for the optimum temperature.
He also fails to recognize that a snippet of a sine wave shows acceleration. When the hole waveform is shown, that acceleration is still there, but the future state matters. The flow in extrapolation is it cannot project a cyclical future.
Typo: whole waveform
“ caused directly by our actions,”
The only real warming caused by our direct actions is the warming of urban areas.
As you continue to show, there in no human caused warming in the whole 45 years of the UAH data
The Holocene Optimum was 3 to 5C warmer than today, and life flourished.
There is no evidence to support your belief that a warmer world is a worse world.
Which makes 20C a pretty good estimate and means we should be encouraging more warming.
Sounds like somebody need to change their facemask.
Tisk tisk tisk. Hey, I’m an atmospheric scientist and I fully realize the preposterousness of this entire ‘CO2 is a danger to us’ charade. Always has been, always will be.
we can all see where the unscientific “fringe” is and it aint the current govt nor wuwt
Spot on.
Whoot!!
You may all carry on with you lives now, the advocacy driven sky fall warning siren has ended. That includes your neighbors with the solar panels on their roof made with forced labor in western China compounds and powered with a vast array of coal power plants. Enjoy your walk on a summer day knowing the political clouds are parting and the sunshine of knowledge is streaming in. Your neighbors still won’t think about or admit to the solar panel supply chain in China, but you can enjoy the day and nice walk (except in CA, IL, NY, and MA).
RG, a semi-sad personal note. I will be leaving sane FL in just over 2 weeks for my other home in IL, and then most likely selling that also in a few months to move permanently to CA because that is where my new ‘her’ (my previous ‘her’ of 24 years died unexpectedly May 2024) wants to live. No more hurricanes, no more blizzards, just more earthquakes.
If Willis can navigate life in California, Rud, I’m sure you can too.
She will freak out when she see the high cost of gas at the pump and the high cost of electricity. As long Gavin is Gov., it can only get worse after the last two refineries shut down next year.
Where are you moving to Rud? I’ll be happy to welcome you and your “her”, with lunch or dinner at a fine establishment if it’s anywhere near the Bay Area.
Moraga, to be near her youngest son and two grandkids.
Is that in the Blue, Purple or Red part of the state?
Moraga is a town in Contra Costa County, California, United States. Located in the San Francisco Bay Area, the town is named in honor of Joaquín Moraga, member of the famed Californio … Wikipedia
Okay, but I think it best not to talk science, policy, CA governance, or politics in this new relationship.
Best wishes to you both.
What about your dairy farm?
I can understand about leaving Illinois, I plan on leaving my house but keep my woods.
True congratulations to all, with Anthony very high on the list, will have to wait until this comes to fruition.
But thanks still go to Anthony. Without your megaphone, this may have not have even made it this far.
My grandchildren thank you.
To paraphrase Winston Churchill (who has been quoted above), this is not the end, it is merely the beginning of the end. It will take a long time to purge the US of this affliction.
That’s put the fox in the Henhouse, YAHOO, I don’t think I have enough good sipping scorch on hand for watching the next 45 days of fun and entertainment that’s going to be coming from screaming Climate loonies as they loose all their feathers.
Thank you for being an island of sanity during the last two decades of political theater.
“Thank you for being an island of sanity during the last two decades of political theater.”
Yes!
Climate Alarmists make some wild claim. Then you go to WUWT for the Real Story, and you get it.
Taking a step back, it is remarkable what 47 and his team have accomplished in just 6 months.
But here in the UK, we have a load of cry babies, shouting outrage and disgust at a Presidential aid, flicking a golf ball behind him, where the Man (cheating) can hit it. Jeez, can’t a President have a little fun? 🙂
Long time since I’ve hacked my way around a golf course, but I aways thought that if you hit out of bound, you already incurred a 1 stroke penalty, so you could take the most advantageous lie when putting your ball back onto the fairway.
You didn’t own the golf course.
It’s good to be the King.
18. Removed DEI from government, schools, and universities.
Trump created the External Revenue Service which is taking in billions of dollars per month.
Trump says we should probably use those billions of dollars to pay down U.S. debt.
Trump is definitely a Game-Changer.
I’m not tired of winning. 🙂
And Trump is giving the next generation some good training. Success breeds success.
Item Number Zero: [bc so much else follows therefrom]
A former US president said “I come here today with a message: As President, I have a responsibility to act with urgency and resolve when our nation faces clear and present danger. And that’s what climate change is about. It is literally, not figuratively, a clear and present danger.”
He seems to have been wrong, but… he WAS the president I guess.
More or less he reversed the policies FDR advertised for the same party while founding TVA in 1933.
FDR a conservative?
Socialists don’t always agree with each other. Neither do conservatives.
The announcement by EPA of the recission of the Endangerment Finding has not yet been placed in the Federal Register.
Trump swore he was going to drain the swamp in his 1st term problem was Trump didn’t know how vicious the swamp is. Swamp won the first round. Trump spent the last 4 years going over what he did wrong and what he could do better. Six months into his second term I’m not ready to declare he’s drained the swamp but he’s certainly got the water draining out at a nice pace already.
Yes, as it appears to have turned out, whether or not they did steal the 2020 election, it might’ve been the worst decision the democrats ever made. They gave the guy 4 years to fine tune the grudge they also gave him, on top of his overwhelming desire to make America great again.
Remember Biden had more votes than Obama 😉
Yeah, I know what you’re saying, but when the entire fake news media were encouraging the anti-Trump vote, it’s possible it was for real. Unlikely, but possible.
Great that he got four years to plan his decimation of the phonies, and he’s only just begun.
I know this is viewed as a conspiracy theory, but the jury is still out on 2020 Election Fraud. Note that is different from voter fraud.
Investigations continue. We shall see when/if the smoke clears.
They say the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth is about six months. It may take a little longer for the 2020 election because of the complexity and lawfare, but election fraud is not a conspiracy theory, it’s the truth.
At least for me, the jury’s very much in on 2020, and we’ve paid a heavy price. It’s much more than the videos of poll workers in Democrat strongholds blocking off windows or retrieving hidden ballot boxes from under tables. Rather, it’s the systematic changing of state election laws in critical swing states in ways that not only clearly favored the Democrats, but also circumvented the Constitution’s requirement that such changes can only be made by state legislatures.
Potentially, SCOTUS could have remedied this fraud, as requested by Texas and several other states that brought suit, by mandating that each of the affected states void their electoral results in favor of allocating their Electoral votes according to the wishes of each states’ Congressional delegation. Unfortunately, as we all know, SCOTUS punted by denying Texas and the other litigants ‘standing’, and America fell under the control of a mentally impaired puppet and his handlers.
There have been other, smaller trade deals
Philippines
Indonesia
United Kingdom
China
as well as a long list of other countries that are still negotiating deals.
One can breathe a little more easily.
And in doing so, exhale 20,000 ppm CO2 with each breath. 🙂
40,000 ?
This was always nothing more than a government mandated religion.
These were supposed to have been ended with the arrival of The Enlightenment.
A bit drawn out this one, but at least the USA has seen the enLIGHTenment.
This was the means to implement The Population Bomb, and implement the Club of Rome One World Order.
This was about power and money, as confessed by UN officials on multiple occasions, not the environment.
Per a UN official in the mid-70s related to the coming ice age, (words to the effect) “We do not know if CO2 is the cause, but it is something we can quantify and tax.”
“One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore.”
Ottmar Edenhofer UN economist belling the cat.
“This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the industrial revolution. That will not happen overnight and it will not happen at a single conference on climate change, be it COP 15, 21, 40 – you choose the number. It just does not occur like that. It is a process, because of the depth of the transformation.”
Christiana Figueres
https://www.azquotes.com/author/32264-Christiana_Figueres
Does anyone really think that there will be a COP40?
The perks of such a BOGSAT will be too tempting.
I question “within a defined period of time” (It all sounds like garbage, but if someone claims the time period is defined… ok, then, what is it?)
Apparently, as long as it takes.
Cf. here:
Posted earlier today, with ~ 2,600 comments already.
Great start to what may become another Scopes Monkey Trial. Thanks to Anthony and CTM for creating such a great refuge for sharing scientific thought, maybe testify in some of the following legal scenarios?
Thank you Anthony, Charles, and WUWT!
Today’s announcement is a great reason to reflect and to celebrate. But of course the battle is not over. Now let’s re-discover from the physical fundamentals why there was never a sound basis for climate alarm at all!
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2025/04/06/open-thread-138/#comment-4058322
(From 1938, as Simpson and Brunt commented on Callendar’s attribution of reported warming to emissions of CO2.)
Dittos!
As a relative newcomer to this site, I salute all of you who have contributed to the question of CO2 and the CAGW. Without doubt, there have been some very technical discussions, a lot of which went over my head. But I’m grateful that you guys understood the issues, and maintained the stance.
My worry now is that despite the ‘awakening’ in the US, the UK gov’t and Milibland will continue on their suicidal mission. We seriously need this news to cross the pond and enlighten our people.
Don’t worry. The EPA recission of the Endangerment Finding is “the second shot herd around the World”.
As a relative newcomer to this site, I salute all of you who have contributed to the question of CO2 and the CAGW. Without doubt, there have been some very technical discussions, a lot of which went over my head. But I’m grateful that you guys understood the issues, and maintained the stance.
My worry now is that despite the ‘awakening’ in the US, the UK gov’t and Milibland will continue on their suicidal mission. We seriously need this news to cross the pond and enlighten our people.
Curious, how did this comment appear twice?
Momentary brownout due to the wind falling? 🙂
CO2. It can do anything!
It makes you wonder if all the dark lords and wormtongues will find positions at Berkeley, Penn State, Columbia, and a lot more underwater basket weaving degree programs out there.
I wonder if there was a “push” regarding M. Mann tossing the Nittany Lions logo for the Quaker. The folks at Penn State my do more intense reviews of new hires.
State Pen if the fairy godmother grants me my wishes.
With the enormous spending, a new Nürenberg process is long over due.
Funny how U Penn is central to Biden, classified documents, Hunter, China….
I didnt realise this was after the SC ruled
On April 2, 2007, in Massachusetts v. EPA, 549 U.S. 497 (2007), the Supreme Court found that greenhouse gases are air pollutants covered by the Clean Air Act.
Where is the actual ( good news) finding of the EPA
You misstate.
That is NOT what SCOTUS ruled in Mass v. EPA.
To oversimplify, what they ruled was that under the CAA, the EPA could rule CO2 an ‘air pollutant’ IF it so deemed. And the core problem SCOTUS dodged was that the CCA definition of a pollutant was circular—‘an air pollutant is that which pollutes. Easy for soot and SO2. Very hard for CO2.
So, legal bottom line, EPA said so then, and now doesn’t. Simples.
It just says yes, its covered under the Clean Air Act. Of course its not a pollutant when its essential for plant life,
Yes, CO2 is an integral part of “clean air”.
Plants love the stuff.
The real problem is how EPA ignored contrary data and using highly questionable metrics established the finding in the first place. This includes totally ignoring benefits.
The other problem is the expanded definitions of health, etc., that spawned from the endangerment finding.
A fair question that does deserve down votes.
Rud answered it fairly.
There is a God. Of course, He/She had some help. And to all Climate Caterwaulers everywhere, Nelson sends a hearty
As much as I’d like to spike the football along with everyone else here, I’m concerned about the Administration’s ability to make the EPA’s withdrawal of the 2009 Endangerment Finding permanent. Yes, Anthony, Charles and the many contributors here at WUWT and elsewhere have done yeoman’s work here to point out much of the crap science and hyperbolic claims foisted on the public by climate alarmists and their useful idiots in the media.
But the fact remains that the well-funded and highly motivated parties pushing climate alarmism will all have their days in court, and more important than all the ‘process arguments’ they are certain to bring, they’ll have one unassailable fact on their side. And that fact is that every climate scientist, from the most rabid alarmist to the most conservative skeptic, fully accepts the premise that radiant transfer models accurately describe how thermal energy absorbed by GHGs at the Earth’s surface is eventually conveyed to space. In other words, by accepting this premise, every skeptic effectively concedes the point that any increase in radiant ‘forcing’ must result in the warming of the Earth, the only issue, then, being ‘by how much?’.
Well the other salient fact that be evidenced by history is this:
A WARMER CLIMATE IS BETTER.
And the conclusion therefore must be that added warmth IS BENEFICIAL, not harmful.
Frank, go back and read Francis Menton’s contributions here on your concern. He is a practicing lawyer, and carefully constructed a multipart plan to resolve your concerns.
I just read FM’s latest dated July 29th. According to him, if SCOTUS upholds the recision before January 2029, it will be tough to reverse, but if it’s still in the hands of the DC courts at that time, there’s a much better chance that an incoming Democrat regime could reinstate it.
In any event, I just penned the following for your amusement:
“Inherit the Wind (Turbine)”
A one-act play by Frank from NoVA
The curtain rises, revealing a US district courtroom in Washington, DC. Present in the courtroom are:
– Judge Carla Marks, elevated from DC traffic court to the Federal bench by Barrack Obama
– The jury pool, 12 citizens of Washington, DC, all of whom derive the bulk of their income either directly or indirectly from the trillions of dollars that roll through DC annually, and none of whom have ever voted for, or intend to vote for, or know anyone who has ever voted for, a Republican.
– Ima Malthusian, Esq., attorney for National Sierra Defense Council, suing the Trump Administration for its decision to rescind the EPA’s 2009 Endangerment Finding.
– Dr. Mainstream Skeptic, expert witness, testifying on behalf of the Trump Administration in favor of rescinding the EPA’s 2009 Endangerment Finding.
————-
Malthusian: Dr. Skeptic, I note from your resume that you are the Svante Arrhenius Professor of Physics at Formerly Rational University and have received numerous awards for your work in radiative physics. Is this correct?
Skeptic: Yes, but I must point out that I am currently on emeritus status at…
Malthusian: Okay. I also see that you have recently written several papers, none of which have been published in a peer reviewed journal, that claim to show that doubling of CO2 will not impact the Earth’s climate to the extent claimed by the IPCC. Claims that we know are supported by the overwhelming consensus of climate scientists. Is that correct?
Skeptic: Well, what I and many other scientists skeptical of the IPCC’s findings have found is that by carefully applying radiant transfer codes based on Schwarzschild’s equation for energy transfer, we find much less…
Malthusian: And on what basis do you conclude that such codes, which are also used in climate modeling, are generally applicable to modeling atmospheric heat transfer?
Skeptic: Basically, because by the careful selection of parameters, we scientists are not only able to produce clear-sky outgoing spectra that are in excellent agreement with the TOA satellite measurements at many locations, but have also been able to match…
Malthusian: Good. So if radiant transfer models accurately portray how thermal radiation from the surface is radiated to space, i.e., the GHE, then isn’t it true that additional radiant forcing, say by doubling the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere through the use of fossil fuels, must inevitably result in an increase in global surface temperature?
Skeptic: Well, yes, but…
Malthusian: Thank you, Dr. Your honor, I have no further questions for this witness.
——-
The lights illuminating the courtroom slowly fade to black, as the curtain is lowered.
The End
Cross examination:
Dr. is it true that the only way energy leaves planet earth is by radiation?
Yes
CO2 is a radiative gas, yes?
Yes
So more CO2 will lead to more energy leaving our planet?
Yes
More energy leaving the planet would lead to cooling, not warming.
Other things being equal, yes.
I have no further questions for this witness Your Honor.
What a silly question! Of course not. Any fool can see that the surface cools at night, and has done so for four and a half billion years. As a matter of fact, at night, the surface cools faster and further when CO2, water vapour (and all the rest) are least.
I suggest you stick to your day job as a comedian, and leave science and the law to others.
‘So more CO2 will lead to more energy leaving our planet’
Sorry, phil, but Dr. Skeptic has never made such a claim. For sake of brevity I didn’t include the testimony of Dr. Alarmo in my little play, but he would have testified that more CO2 increases the amount of ‘back radiation’ received by the Earth’s surface and raises the so-called effective emitting layer to a cooler layer of the atmosphere, resulting in an increase in the Earth’s average surface temperature. And as I’ve pointed out, above, Dr. Skeptic is on board with Dr. Alarmo’s physics.
Yes, but Happer & Wijngaarden show that using the IPCC’s radiative warming theory causes almost no additional warming for a doubling of CO2 because of saturation whereby there is already sufficient CO2 in the atmosphere to cause almost all the warming possible as defined by the Stefan-Boltzmann curve and CO2’s IR absorption bands, a phenomenon recognised even by the UK’s Royal Society. Even the IPCC itself calculates only a warming of 1.2 degrees C for a doubling of CO2 (p95 of their WG1 (“The Science”) report as well as Table 12 in Chapter 12 shows there to be no signals for climate change for precipitation, droughts and storms and only for some mild warming which according to UAH satellite date for the lower troposphere is 0.14 degrees C per decade. Interestingly Shula & Ott have a compelling case that GHGs cause no radiative warming at all because of thermalisation (see Tom Nelson “The Missing Link”)
‘Interestingly Shula & Ott have a compelling case that GHGs cause no radiative warming at all because of thermalization (see Tom Nelson “The Missing Link”)’
Yes, I find it ‘compelling’, as well. Moreover, it’s completely consistent with all the actual geological data from the past 65my+ that CO2 has had no effect on the Earth’s temperature.
What’s not consistent with the data is that the mainstream skeptics you mention (along with many others) agree that radiant transfer models get the atmospheric energy physics right. As you may have noted by my comments elsewhere in this thread, this means that they are effectively on board with the idea that any increase in radiative forcing must increase Earth’s average surface temperature, which is a result that Shula & Ott disagree with.
One way to answer the “by how much?” question without a protracted tangle over the validity of radiative transfer modeling is to emphasize the massively overwhelming dynamics of the general circulation. This leaves no reason for expecting harm, danger, or even any perceptible influence on the climate system from incremental CO2, in any case.
https://www.regulations.gov/comment/EPA-HQ-OAR-2025-0124-0141
P.S. the valid answer to “how much” therefore must be “we don’t have any reliable way to distinguish the expected warming from zero.”
David, Thanks for the reminder. I’m glad you’re on our side!
The “radiative transfer model” ignores Maxwell. Electromagnetic Fields and Waves math were never applied.
Most of the heat energy from a warm or hot surface is removed by conduction and convection not the greenhouse effect.
Most is not all.
All (yes, all) energy lost by matter is radiated away. Conduction, convection etc., are just simplified attempts to describe what happens at the macro level.
Convection and advection refer to the movement of fluids, the end result of radiative processes. I’m only being pedantic because self-proclaimed “climate scientists” and their followers believe all sorts of nonsensical propositions – the indefinable and indefensible GHE being just one.
The scientific method is anathema to GHE believers.
I’m happy to be proven wrong, but I won’t hold my breath while I’m waiting.
Electromagnetic radiation and thermal energy are two distinct forms of energy as discovered in 1850 by Eunice Foote.
Agreed: “The scientific method is anathema to GHE believers.”
Thermal radiation is 1/r^3
EM radiation is 1/r^2
Electromagnetic radiation and thermal energy are two distinct forms of energy as discovered in 1850 by Eunice Foote.
I disagree. Here’s what Google AI says –
This is a widely used “definition”, but it’s misleading at best.. Quantum electrodynamic theory explains the reality of all physical processes apart from gravity and nuclear processes in terms of light interacting with matter,
All matter above zero emits infrared radiation, which some refer to as “heat”, or “thermal radiation”, or similar terms. All radiation can be considered to be light – all frequencies, all energies.
i’m not sure whether you’re disagreeing with my comment or not.
The AI is using the redefinitions put forward by the climate modelers, etc. They want everyone to think heat and IR are the same.
So molecules colliding do not exchange kinetic energy? Fascinating.
FYI, I was agreeing.
Thereby continuing to release more and more CO2. Oh, the horror!
Relax. Your premise is, of course, faulty. After playing by the Anthropo-Climate-Crisis advocates’ rules for decades, trying to make sense of the GAT, real scientists are beginning to understand that “climate” is an energy-relater phenomenon, not dependent solely on thermometer readings, and certainly not on “averages” of such readings. As such, certain other atmospheric phenomena become important. to wit:
1) While the thermal energy (temperature) of dry air varies directly (roughly) with increasing energy, (specific heat), the radiating energy is governed by T^4. A 1% (3K) increase in temp causes a 4% increase in outgoing energy, the first great stabilizing negative feedback.
2) Clouds, which cover as much as 1/3 of the earth’s surface, cooling the warm daytime surface and retaining heat over the cooler nights, are the second most effective negative feedback, and are not effectively described in the climate models.
3) The water cycle (evaporation, convection, condensation, and precipitation) relies on isothermal processes which, of course, cannot be usefully measured by thermometers.
4) One day’s precipitation represents enough energy absorbed from the surface, transported to higher altitudes, where it forms clouds and radiates energy to space, to raise the temperature of the whole atmosphere as much as the few additional cumulative CO2 molecules could in a decade.
Energy transport creates and describes climate. GAT is a worthless calculation.
‘After playing by the Anthropo-Climate-Crisis advocates’ rules for decades, trying to make sense of the GAT, real scientists are beginning to understand that “climate” is an energy-relater phenomenon, not dependent solely on thermometer readings, and certainly not on “averages” of such readings.’
Look, I’ve been telling everyone here until I’m blue in the face that there is absolutely no evidence in the geological record over the past 65my+ to support the idea that CO2 is the ‘control knob’ of the Earth’s climate. The problem is that, notwithstanding the actual data, your so-called ‘real scientists’ are fully on board with the idea that radiant transfer models accurately describe the physical mechanism by which thermal energy emitted by the Earth’s surface is transported to space. This means that a) the Left can safely ignore the actual data because ‘everyone’ implicitly agrees that any increase in radiant forcing, e.g., increasing CO2, must result in an increase in Earth’s surface temperature and b) the vaunted roll-back of the Endangerment Finding will only last until the Left obtains the political horse power to re-instate it.
Take heart! More and more posts here in WUWT are referring to the “energy” content of the atmosphere, and fewer to the GAT, or the even more ridiculous “anomaly”. Have patience!
‘Take heart! / Have patience!’
My frustration is that the physics that would ‘dethrone’ the consensus application of radiant transfer modeling (RTM) to Earth’s atmosphere likely already exists in the so-called ‘refereed’ literature, albeit not in organized form.
Until one or more of the ‘big time’ mainstream skeptics breaks ranks with the consensus thinking on RTMs, ‘the science’ will remain a strictly political exercise, for which I have neither the heart, nor the patience.
And the AIs are trained on the ‘refereed’ literature, no matter how much evidence there is that peer review has failed. Be afraid, be very afraid.
I take heart. I have been trying to explain how control theory and energy flows apply to the atmosphere, water, and land for a long, long time.
First thing that needs to be done is stop claiming positive feedback or negative feedback. The definitions behind how those expressions are used are social definition, not engineering.
There’s a big difference between “not being the control knob” and having no effect at all.
I agree with you completely on it “not being the control knob”
There is no such thing as permanence when it comes to findings of this sort. Given the right rule making language, and a supportive Supreme Court opinion, all of this can come back again. One would like to think that real hard science and common sense would prevail, but all of that has been in short supply in this country for years.
Agreed. If I were to model ‘constitutional case law’, I’d describe it as a random walk, biased in favor of the expansion of Federal power.
Deleted double post
Carbon dioxide is innocent.
The truth eventually seeped out.
Well done WUWT.
Unfortunately for us in the UK we are still doomed to the self impoverishment of Net Zero.
Good news and bad news from across the pond.
Good news: Net zero won’t happen because impossible.
Bad news: lots of real bad stuff (black outs, cold deaths) from grid failures trying to get to Net Zero before any good news.
Agreed. But with the pause in the march to Net Zero here in the US, we can observe what happens in the UK, Oz and Germany, using them as the crash-test dummies.
You can be a skeptic, or you can be a sucker. It really is that simple in the Man-made climate change wars…
Thanks to all those fighting for true scientific knowledge, may it prevail and overcome the hysteria of the climatistas.
Awesome news!
Good. Now how do we stop the next guy from putting it back?
Don’t elect Democrats.
Yep, we need to be super-diligent in making sure Vance or Gabbard (or both) get elected in 2028 and not give the phony-left frauds an inch.
And conservatives should not be too confident. Remember that about 75 million voters voted for the imbecile, Kamala Harris, so we have a lot of work to do to erode those numbers.
Propaganda works on easily influenced people, and fools millions of people into doing things against their real interests, such as voting for Democrats, and our modern-day Mass Media is made up almost entirely of leftwing propagandists who push the radical Democrat/Labour/Labor line 24 hours per day.
So don’t get too complacent, conservatives, because the radical Left has a powerful weapon in the Mass Media.
She received 75 million votes. How many people voted for her remains to be seen.
We have a lot of work remaining to clean up how voting is done in this country.
It is also very important to ensure continuing, and increasing Republican majorities in the House and, especially, the Senate.
‘Propaganda works on easily influenced people, and fools millions of people into doing things against their real interests, such as voting for Democrats…’
I look forward to the day when a Republican of national stature (Vance?) holds a rally in a deep-blue city like Baltimore in order to point out to voters there that are only two possible reasons why their kids fail miserably in school:
Either their kids (and likely the parents themselves) are dumber than a box of rocks, or, the political party that they have been habitually voting for over many decades is either incapable of, or unwilling to, provide the most basic of public services.