By Andy May
The featured image is figure 2 from May & Crok.
This post is mostly a list of errors and misinformation in the AJES (The American Journal of Economics and Sociology) board’s response by Ted Gwartney and Alexandra Lough to May & Crok. But first I applaud the board’s decision to formally publish the paper they invited May & Crok to write for their special climate change edition. The paper they asked us to write (already published online) was intended to explain the science behind the “climate denial” point of view, and it accomplished that.
The paper has received a lot of criticism, see the links at the end of this post for our response to each critique. The critiques all fall into two categories:
- May & Crok are correct that there is no sign of any unusual global danger from man-made climate change today, but just wait! The climate models say there will be dangers in the future.
- I don’t see any errors or flaws in May & Crok or in the references, but you must be wrong because the “consensus” of climate scientists say you are wrong.
The AJES board’s criticism, by Gwartney & Lough falls in the second category. May & Crok is a straightforward and honest look at the state of climate today, and the paper simply points out, and the AR6 WGI report agrees, that there are no signs of any dangers from man-made climate change now or in the immediate future.
As the internal AJES dispute over our paper continues we are getting more information on how biased the peer-review system is. May & Crok’s invited paper passed peer review and the reviewers were very prestigious academics that have both published extensively on climate science and closely related fields. Between the two of them they have amassed more than 15,000 citations of their published work according to Researchgate. Further, the AJES special edition editor approved the paper for publication.
Now we find out that Wiley (the publishing and printing company that AJES contracts with) objected to the paper and “forced” the AJES board to intervene after May & Crok was already published online. Who appointed Wiley to be the judge of “truth” in science? Aren’t scientific hypotheses, such as the consensus hypothesis that man-made climate change is dangerous, supposed to be debated among scientists until all objections and contradictions are explained and all agree? Fortunately, the board, quite properly, rejected Wiley’s request to pull the paper from the issue. Science is based on free speech and debate and if only one side of an issue gets published, there can be no debate and science dies.
However, while formally publishing May & Crok is a good thing, it does not grant Gwartney & Lough license to unfairly malign the authors of the paper or their motives. So, I put together the following list of misinformation in Gwartney & Lough. As the list of critiques and responses below the conclusions of this post shows, no errors or misinformation have been identified in May & Crok to date.
Errors and misinformation in Gwartney & Lough
Quotes from the AJES response are shown in italics and indented, my discussion of each quote is in normal type.
May and Crok “was written more in a spirit of defiance or rebellion”
We challenged the consensus climate change hypothesis, how is this defiance or rebellion? Challenging the consensus is exactly what scientists are supposed to do.
“… two authors who lack any experience publishing in scientific journals …”
A list of Andy May’s publications in many scientific journals is publicly available on google scholar. Some are also listed in other places such as Orcid (0009-0002-3452-9976) and Researchgate. He has 203 citations in google and Researchgate reports 102 citations.
A list of Marcel Crok’s publications is also available on google scholar, he has 126 citations. Marcel’s profile on Researchgate shows 76 citations of his work.
Both Marcel and Andy have a lot of experience publishing in scientific journals, this statement is clearly false.
“…normative commitment to economic growth rather than to scientific understanding.”
May & Crok addresses possible dangers due to global warming, possible additional extreme weather, and problems comparing current instrumental temperatures to past warming events. We also address the Little Ice Age, the greening Earth, and the possible effect of climate change on GDP. Economic growth is important, but it is not the only topic discussed in the paper. Again, clearly false.
“…starts with a desired outcome and works backward…”
May & Crok’s premise is that the weather today is arguably better than the weather in the Little Ice Age (aka the “pre-industrial”) and that extreme weather today has not exceeded natural variability. These two premises are backed up with numerous references including the latest IPCC report, AR6 WGI (page 1856), also see here. Where is the evidence that the conclusions, data, and references in May & Crok are incorrect? It seems the board of AJES is beginning with the premise that the consensus hypothesis is correct and working backward, the opposite of the scientific method we all learned in school. Seems like they are projecting their problem unfairly onto May & Crok.
“Normally, the governing board of AJES stays out of the content published by editors, but this case has forced us to intervene. Wiley, the publisher, rightly balked at publishing the article, given its deficiencies, and we are grateful to Wiley for forcing us to become involved.”
Who is in charge of AJES? Are you saying the board of AJES reports to Wiley? How has Wiley “forced” the board to become involved? Who appointed Wiley custodian of scientific truth? This seems upside down.
May & Crok were invited to explain the scientific reasoning behind climate denialism, the idea that global warming is not dangerous, and that humans may have very little impact on climate change. We did that. What in our article is false or in error? We disagree with the consensus view that humans cause dangerous climate change, why is there a problem with this? There is no evidence that we are aware of that climate change, whether man-made or not, is dangerous, this is also stated in AR6 WGI on page 1856 (see footnote 37 in our paper). How is Wiley “forcing” you to get involved in this issue not censorship of the worst possible kind?
“…abuse of research methods in this article.”
What abuse? What research methods? All the data used in May & Crok are publicly available and all the references are sound. This was an invited literature review/opinion article, there are no “research methods” per se, only the bibliography which I’ve never seen criticized. This is clearly a false and irrelevant comment.
“… an article that would normally be rejected…”
It went through peer review and was accepted. The two peer reviewers who accepted it are very accomplished scientists who have written extensively about climate science. Why would you say this? This is false, it clearly was not rejected, and proper peer review procedures were followed. There is no valid reason to reject it.
“At no point do they offer an alternative hypothesis to explain the unprecedented rate of global temperature increase in the past 50 years. Not only do they fail to overturn the climate consensus; they never truly question it.”
The article was written to show that the consensus hypothesis has problems. We show the hypothesis is based on faulty models and little or no evidence. This is the way science is supposed to work. Gwartney & Lough seem to think the climate consensus should be accepted blindly and not questioned, a very anti-scientific view. Gwartney and Lough write that:
“… most educated adults are only partially familiar with the hundreds of scholarly components of the climate consensus, including geology, biology, climatology, oceanography, and history. No single human could master all of those components, so understanding the future of the planet requires multiple overlapping teams of scientists to pull together disparate data and to resolve anomalies.“
This is an argument more suited to the Middle Ages than today. The idea of forbidden knowledge is a trope of horror movies and has no place in modern science. To say that the “climate consensus” is beyond normal human understanding and we should not even try to understand it is an admission the authors are out of their depth. It reminds one of Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein where she writes that some knowledge is forbidden and to pursue it is death! Climate change does not fall into this category, and the modern public is not that gullible. To justify eliminating fossil fuels on the basis of science beyond our understanding is mystical nonsense and a sure sign we are being had. If climate change were truly dangerous, the reasoning could be explained clearly and succinctly.
As critics of the consensus hypothesis, we are under no obligation to offer an alternative hypothesis. May & Crok show that the warming in the past 50 years is neither unusual nor unprecedented (see May & Crok‘s figure 4). We make no attempt to “overturn the climate consensus,” but we clearly question it. This is what we were asked to do and our duty as scientists, Gwartney & Lough do not seem to understand how science is supposed to work or our mandate from the special edition editor.
“Since the ultimate focus of denialists is economic growth …”
This is the main strawman fallacy in the AJES response. No denialists that I am aware of focus on economic growth, except for economists like William Nordhaus, Richard Tol, and Bjorn Lomborg. Economics is only briefly mentioned in May & Crok.
May & Crok do recognize that economic growth is important as an indicator of human welfare and it is needed to normalize damages from extreme weather. Affluent societies are healthier, live in cleaner environments, and live longer. When they emerged in the 19th century, fossil fuels were welcomed because they improved the environment and saved the whales. May & Crok emphasize potentially dangerous extreme weather, how climate change might affect mortality, the scientific evidence for dangerous man-made climate change, and the evidence, or lack thereof, that humans influence climate change. May & Crok also critically examine the idea that current warming is unusual.
“Even if spending on mitigation (prevention of climate damage) were a waste of money, the costs of adaptation would still be enormous—trillions of dollars merely to adapt to sea- level rise by dispersing inland the population of the largest cities in the world. … Since the costs of mitigation are trivial by comparison with adaptation costs, the denialists should be ahead of the curve, focusing on developing the most efficient methods of adaptation rather than wasting their time criticizing the IPCC and its results.”
As noted in May & Crok, the current rate of sea level rise is a very modest two mm/year (also see here and here for a fuller discussion), there is no danger to coastal cities and no need to evacuate anyone. I know of no estimate of adaptation and mitigation costs that concludes mitigation is cheaper and none is cited in Gwartney and Lough. The most reliable study is William Nordhaus’ Nobel Prize winning work that shows adaptation is cheaper, at least until global average temperature warms four degrees, which is a very long way into the future, if four degrees of warming ever occurs at all. See Nordhaus’s Nobel Prize lecture here. The assumptions in this quote are clearly false and/or unsupported.
Conclusions
Science is organized debate, Wiley, Gwartney, and Lough are free to disagree with May & Crok, but they should not criticize our work without proper references or data that show we are wrong and support their assertions. Simply assuming a popular hypothesis is correct and all opposing views are wrong is egregiously unscientific and political. Further the IPCC has promoted their hypothesis that humans are the cause of dangerous global warming and climate change for over 30 years and have yet to convince the public that there is a problem. Thirty years is a long time to push a failing agenda.
Also, their use of the “economic growth” strawman is inappropriate. Economic considerations were clearly not the focus of our paper which instead focused on potential dangers to humanity from climate change. In any case, I’m happy the paper will be formally published and I’m grateful to the board for that decision.
I was a member of the publications committee for the Petrophysics Journal for a number of years in the 1990s and reviewed dozens of submitted papers. I checked the references, the math, the writing, the reasoning, and the data; and often rejected papers or ask for them to be modified for these reasons. But I never rejected a paper because I disagreed with it or it went against the “consensus.” There are serious problems with peer-review and editorial review in journals today, it is affecting the public’s perception of scientific integrity and creates a problem for all scientists. As I’ve written elsewhere:
“The peer-review process can, and often does, suppress truly innovative work. Papers are sometimes rejected simply because they are novel and opposed to the “consensus” opinion.” Andy May, see here.
Finally a personal word. Due to the overwhelming success of May & Crok (it remains in the 99.7%ile of all 27.5 million research papers in Wiley’s database), I get a large number of requests to write more papers for various journals. It isn’t likely to happen. I reach a larger audience through my website and WUWT and have a larger impact in those forums. I’m very disappointed in today’s peer-review process and, unless it reforms itself, I doubt I will participate in it again. It seems likely that peer-reviewed journals, at least in their current form, will follow the mainstream news media and the dodo bird into oblivion.
The full submitted version of May & Crok can be downloaded here or on Researchgate.
Responses to other criticisms of May & Crok
The responses contain links to the original critiques:
- “Bonus” Gets it wrong. A discussion of sea level, climate proxies, and “are today’s temperatures unusual?” Are deaths due to climate change declining rapidly? Does more CO2 cause Earth to green? Are crop yields increasing? Are Marcel Crok and myself paid shills for the fossil fuel industry? Has Martin Durkin’s movie on climate been debunked? What is the trend in extreme weather?
- All Things Equal: Is CO2 the climate “control knob?”
- Tinus Pulles critique of May & Crok. This is Pulles’ first attempt to critique our paper, the second will be published sometime in the future according to Gwartney & Lough. Pulles admits that there are no adverse effects from climate change today, but tells us it will be bad in the future because the climate models say so. He is concerned that the Little Ice Age did not occur everywhere in the world at the same time. He notes that log (CO2) correlates well with global average temperature and that there is a lot of extreme weather in Europe this year.
- Pubpeer comment on May & Crok. The anonymous reviewer calls himself or herself “Phoma destructiva.” The reviewer is upset that May & Crok underestimated anthropogenic global warming even though we offered no estimate. The reviewer also critiques future projections by the authors of two of our sources, Javier Vinós and Judith Curry, although we do not use their projections in our paper. Then the reviewer disputes the well-established existence of ocean oscillations, like the AMO and PDO. Generally, this review is an example of setting up strawmen to knock down while ignoring what May & Crok actually say.
- Phoma destructiva’s 2nd comment on May & Crok. This is an attempt to rebut our refutation of Phoma’s first critique by using empty rhetoric, strawman, and red herring fallacies. Not much new here.
- Comment on Cobb, 2024. The first AJES article criticizing May & Crok was by Clifford William Cobb. The paper provides a reasonable definition of “Climate Denialism” that thankfully avoids comparing us to Holocaust deniers. The paper does not address any of the scientific points made in May & Crok and simply asserts that we must be wrong because the “consensus” says so. He does attempt to blame Exxon for climate denialism, which is absurd, Exxon participated in all the IPCC reports, and has many scientists working for them that are part of the “consensus.” Cobb thinks that the May & Crok advice to only end fossil fuel use when a danger from them is identified is “start[ing] from a conclusion and working backward,” when in reality it is just common sense. He does not address the central question: “Is there any danger in man-made global warming?” Cobb bases his fact-free argument on ideology and opinion and ignores abundant evidence that addition CO2 and global warming have been beneficial to humans to date.
- Both Cobb and I agree that the news media are awful at reporting science. I believe that academics would best help the world by changing their writing style so their articles can be read and understood by the general public. Leave the technical details and jargon in the supplementary materials. We want the public to get their science news from primary sources, not Fox or CNN, who just screw it up.
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Another nice response, Andy. Well done yet again.
The harder the other side tries ‘supression’, the closer our side is to truth. Been true at least since Climategate.
There are growing cracks in the climate alarm foundations. Your paper exposes 1.
Unlike most other fields of scientific studies, “climate science” was started and has continued pursuing a naked ideological / political agenda.
And it’s been on show now for several decades for anyone who cares to objectively observe.
Cui bono should be the starting and finishing points for all consumers of climate push-marketing.
Exactly, Rud.
A few examples from Gwartney & Lough:
Even if May and Crok lack experience, does the lack of experience make them wrong?
There’s no need to offer an alternative hypothesis to show the original is wrong.
Again, there’s no need to master all the components if the original premise is wrong.
Gwartney & Lough seem to have things the wrong way around.
Well put.
Gwartney (BA Real Estate) and Lough (BA Political Science and History, PhD American History) certainly didn’t let lack of relevant qualifications or experience bother them.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
You get a better “peer review” at places like WUWT than you do in most journals. Even the “prestigious” ones.
And that comment is based on?
Independent critical thought. Some people should try more of it.
“Independent critical thought.”
Simpleton doesn’t know what that is. !
Has never done it, and doesn’t know how to.
Yes, I understand that most here think they are independent, critical thinkers…. but the very fact you have provided no evidence at all that WUWT can foot it with the peer review process, kinda would indicate the opposite of what you say.
The fact you are incapable of providing even the most basic evidence to support your brain-hosed cultism, shows just how gullible and non-thing you are.
The fact that you have zero clue what the purpose of journal peer-review is, shows just how simple-minded and ignorant your understanding is.
Simon
December 29, 2024 3:21 pm
And that comment is based on?
The fact that you (and people like you) are free to comment on WUWT.
The are many “scientific” and mainstream journals that forbid publication of any climate sceptic articles.
One side understands how the scientific method works!
“The fact that you (and people like you) are free to comment on WUWT.”
That is true and very much appreciated, but that is not peer review. That is commenting on a public forum, which is fun, but hardly the mark of quality. The definition of peer review is the review of work by those who are qualified (experts) in the field.
“The are many “scientific” and mainstream journals that forbid publication of any climate sceptic articles.”
I think you will find they don’t get past the first stage because they don’t meet the required level of quality.
Peer review in climate science has been compromised for more than two decades.
In March 2003, Mann and his colleagues were plotting via email how to boycott a journal that published a study by Soon and Baliunas, even before they had read the paper.
http://www.assassinationscience.com/climategate/1/FOIA/mail/1047388489.txt
and there it is.
Thanks for the link. Soon & Baliunas is an outstanding and solid paper. The “consensus” was terrified of it because it was bulletproof. We tried to do the same.
Walter,
Thanks for bringing up Soon & Baliunas, 2003. It is a very good critical paper and has a similar story to May & Crok. It is bulletproof and was relentlessly attacked. Here is a link to the paper, it is still relevant and accurate:
https://www.int-res.com/abstracts/cr/v23/n2/p89-110
Not paywalled.
And yet you cannot produce one single peer-reviewed paper showing empirical evidence of warming by atmosphere CO2, shows your belief is just brain-hosed rancid gullibility.
Yawn….
“Yawn….”
And yet you STILL cannot produce one single peer-reviewed paper showing empirical evidence of warming by atmosphere CO2, shows your belief is just brain-hosed rancid gullibility.
Another complete failure from the simpleton.
You’re hopeless even as a bad faith troll, let alone as a serious commenter.
Thank you. Happy new year to you too.
My pleasure. Lots more home truths for you where that one came from.
You still haven’t posted evidence for warming by CO2, and you never will.
“And yet you cannot produce one single peer-reviewed paper showing empirical evidence of warming by atmosphere CO2″
I don’t have to coz you just produced one saying it’s real. Thank you.
FAILURE .. again and again. !!
Basic comprehension totally beyond the simpleton.
“and includes no additional warming as CO2 rises from 350 ppm to 400 ppm.””
That means no CO2 warming since at least 1990
Well done. !! 🙂
Here is what leading “climate scientists” have done to your “level of quality”: “I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow – even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !” – Climategate email #1089318616
Oh that’s terrible. Couple of CS’s sharing strong opinions. Wow. How dare they. Are you saying they are human?
I bet if you stole a whole bunch of climate denier emails there would be a few things they wouldn’t want read.
A recent peer-reviewed paper came to the conclusion
Great to have you finally joining the realist side, simpleton.
“tripling atmospheric CO2 from 100 ppm to 400 ppm produces a “negligibly small” 0.3°C warming effect.
So now you are saying (after all those mindless posts) that increasing CO2 does cause warming. Wow.
Comprehension is really an issue for you, Isn’t it, you poor simple-minded twit
and includes no additional warming as CO2 rises from 350 ppm to 400 ppm.”
“….produces a “negligibly small” 0.3°C warming effect.”
Owch. Come on admit it. You walked into that one.
and includes no additional warming as CO2 rises from 350 ppm to 400 ppm.”
You walked in that one and feel flat on your face in your own BS.
You have just agreed that there has been no CO2 warming since at least 1990,
..and as most of that 0.3C warming would be in the lower part of the 100-350 range,
…. that means, since CO2 has always been above about 250ppm in the last 200+ years..
that means no CO2 warming in the last 200+ years.
That is what YOU have just agreed to.
Well Done.. you finally got there. 🙂
“You have just agreed that there has been no CO2 warming since at least 1990,”
Nope… for the record I think CO2 is a greenhouse gas and the more we put into the atmosphere them more we will warm.
Actually…. just released today. The 10 warmest years on record are the last 10 years. I do suspect CO2 is having some part in that. Don’t you? Or is that just a coincidence? Do you think your clown car idea “it’s all El Nino what done it” cuts the mustard here?
Irrelevant what you think or suspect…
You are a scientific and personal non-entity, totally incapable of supporting anything you say with anything remotely related to science.
You also seem to be an El Nino denier.
1… Please provide empirical scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2.
2… Please show the evidence of CO2 warming in the UAH atmospheric data.
3… Please show warming in the UAH data that is NOT related to El Nino events.
Stop slithering, little worm. !!
—
And no, nearly all the last 10,000 years was significantly warmer than now…
We are only a highly beneficial degree or so above the coldest period in those 10,000 year
Woe. You can feel a 0.3°C warming effect? lol
Not only that, but 0.3C that happened when the CO2 level was somewhere above 100ppm and well below 350ppm.
I doubt the simpleton was even born then…
… he seems very much an immature and uneducated child.
Doesn’t matter what I feel. In fact that is about as silly a comment as you could post. Keep it up. You got one more day to break the internet.
“Doesn’t matter what I feel.”
Doesn’t matter what you say, either .
You have proven you are a scientific illiterate minor troll.
Nothing more, and probably a lot less.
And still the total ignorance of the purpose for journal peer-review.
No accounting for the ignorance of simpletons.
Beat me to it, though I hesitate to place Simon as a true peer of Andy.
We are still waiting for the pee per tape…or was Russia Colluuuusion made up 😉
You really are a boring ignorant man aren’t you. Go on, make it a news years resolution to have an original clever thought.
So you keep saying crap that you can’t support.. Ok , we knew that !!
If you can be duped by Russia Colluuuusion you can be duped by others. I bet you don’t believe Biden has dementia 😉
you are a moron indeed.
I agree, Mark. And for Simon’s benefit, I have been through the peer review process at WUWT (which I call “spear review”) on several occasions. I remember on one occasion E. Schaffer catching me out on my misinterpretation of a number in AR3 WG1. This kind of review is very valuable.
The scrutiny on WUWT is vastly more searching and rigorous than that of any peer-reviewed journal.
“The scrutiny on WUWT is vastly more searching and rigorous than that of any peer-reviewed journal.”
You don’t really believe that a bunch of amateurs sitting round yelling nonsense at each other has more credibility than peer review? Do you?
Don’t get me wrong WUWT has it’s place (fun, place to vent), but it is not to change the scientific thinking on the topic of climate change. If you think I’m wrong, give me one original idea/story published here that has been globally accepted and in the end changed the thinking on the issue? I can give you some that tried but failed when examined closely.
Simon:
This comes up on here occasionally.
They really are deluded enough to think that this echo-chamber of climate science denial (unless they think it supports them) is a fair/neutral and informed (as in expert) forum, and as such would be better to peer-review science papers pertaining to climate.
If you think about it – it is a self-fulfilling prophecy that it would be as the definition of a Dunning-Kruger syndrome afflicted person is…..
Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general. According to the researchers for whom it is named, psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the effect is explained by the fact that the metacognitive ability to recognize deficiencies in one’s own knowledge or competence requires that one possess at least a minimum level of the same kind of knowledge or competence, which those who exhibit the effect have not attained.
Bingo.
Review here is very useful.
It shows up mini-trolls like Banton and the simpleton as the scientifically illiterate fools that they are.
Banton is the absolute definition of a Dunning Kruger monkey. Thinks he is intelligent, but is provably just a regurgitating parrot with zero comprehension what he is regurgitating
And the simpleton is just an low-IQ zero-science dolt.
“And the simpleton is just an low-IQ zero-science dolt.”
Really? At least I know El Nino is not the cause of the warming.
And it is “a” low IQ zero-science dolt.
There is no question Dunning-Kruger is very much alive and well here, celebrated even.
“celebrated even.”
Yes, we noticed you kissing Banton’s feet. !
Simon thinks Russia Colluuuusion was real…how smart can he be?
Boring. You must be fun at a party.
lol…you think Russia Colluuuusion and Biden doesn’t have dementia…easily duped indeed
Ah, the credentialism of the Leftist troll…
Even as a troll you’re an amateur.
Funny how you think I am a troll because you disagree with what I say. You must meet a lot of trolls.
Poor simpleton, you really are a very ignorant and brain-washed little troll…
…totally incapable of supporting anything you say with anything remotely approaching “science”.
You are just too dumb to realise how empty and meaningless your posts are.
“You are just too dumb to realise how empty and meaningless your posts are.”
Really? At least I know El Nino is not the cause of the warming.
Show us some warming in the UAH data that DOES NOT come from warming.
El Nino denial is left to those with a severely low-IQ
I know, try writing a paper on your brilliant theory and get it peer reviewed. I’m sure they would all enjoy the laugh.
You may think your response is a brilliant riposte, but it is far from it. It is a sad commentary on the state of publishing today. If an article doesn’t toe the line with the consensus, laugh it off and through it away. That path is pseudoscience, not real science. In essence, censorship.
I just read an article about a Chinese scientist being unable to find ANY journal to publish a paper about his gene analysis of early hominids showing that humans may have originating in east Asia. The consensus is that early humans originated from Africa and anything that challenges that is automatically rejected. Pseudoscience at work!
You should be proud of your willingness to reject REAL science. It tells us a lot about your character.
Your response is the classic one from a group frustrated by their inability to make the grade. The reason “genuine” skeptic attempts to rewrite the science fail, is because they can’t convince those who require the highest level of quality, that they have a strong argument. And there is a reason for that…. they don’t have one. Until they do they are going to be relegated to blog sites and chat rooms. And that is how it should be. You don’t get to challenge good science with half truths and opinion pieces.
Sorry to tell you dude, it is not up to you to make the decisions about “genuine science”. Nor is it up to you to decide what are half truths and opinions.
You can believe masks prevent COVID because – the science! You can believe inoculations will prevent COVID because – the science! You believe what you want. Just don’t tell others they need – to believe – the same as you.
All your ad hominems will be worth that of dandelion seeds blowing in the wind when time decides who has the correct definitions.
What ad homs? I thought we were having pleasant conversation.
And it doesn’t matter I jot what you or I believe on this topic, it matters what those who do the peer review think. And at this point in time they are rightly unconvinced by most skeptic arguments and they will be till…..
Nah! You never cast aspersions or make ad hominems. Don’t try to argue that you are just responding in kind. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Is it an ad hominem if the statement is true?
Ad hominem…“instead of addressing someone’s argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.”
I stand by all of those you quoted. I think they are all true.
Dunning-Kruger is very much alive and well here, That’s true in my opinion. Many here know a little, but that leads them to thinking they know a lot.
enjoy the laugh. I think if benice20000 wrote a paper saying the recent warming is the result of El Nino he would be laughed at by those assessing the paper. That is just a fact.
half truths and opinion pieces. There are loads of half truths said here. That is a simple fact.
Now if you really want to see ad hominem attacks read benice2000’s work.
From: https://www.scribbr.co.uk/fallacy/ad-hominem/
Reread what you just wrote. Dunning-Kruger is an attempt to personally discredit a person rather than a fact or assertions made in an argument.
Look at your definition of ad hominem. You do not include a citation for what you put in quotation. That is a novice mistake in high school debate besides being a classic error of plagiarism.
From: https://guides.libraries.uc.edu/integrity
One could make an assumption that the breadth of your education is sorely lacking by seeing these problems in your argument.
Let’s assume you are right for a moment (and I think you are twisting things to the limit to gain any sense of reason) look at the numerous ad hominem attacks I get. Not a peep from you on those. Do you hold Derg to the same standard, or Karomonte or bnice2000? Their attacks are specifically personal. Look at Dergs last one “Says the guy looking for the Pee Pee tape. You are a moron.“
In my world it is pretty simple. Attacking the person = ad hom, attack the idea, = not ad hom. Easy.
Grow up and grow a pair.sticjs and stones. Two wrongs do not make a right.
You are well known at this site for attacking a person rather than ideas. Live with it or cease doing it.
Learn how to cite research that supports your assertions.
” Grow up and grow a pair.sticjs and stones. Two wrongs do not make a right.”
So you are fine with ad hominem attacks as long as they go only one way. Sad but I am not surprised. I think you need to look up the word “hypocrite.” Have a happy new year.
Says the guy looking for the Pee Pee tape. You are a moron
Boring
lol….you are such a moron. Now find that pee pee tape.
Yawn!!!!
You are a moron. Find that tape or admit it was made up.
Boring.
Go Andy, go! Knock’m dead.
Nice response.
You do not need to propose a new hypothesis. Using this as an argument is a red herring and fruitless. I believe it was Einstein who was to have said it only takes one to show that a conclusion of a hypothesis is incorrect. Showing is the key that detractors somehow miss in criticizing your work.
“You do not need to propose a new hypothesis.” Exactly. This is important. One should not “take the bait” when the opponent demands, “Well, if not the greenhouse effect, how do YOU explain the warming?” There are indeed multiple plausible explanations, but I am not obligated to commit myself to any of them if I first have shown the unsoundness of the central claim.
Indeed. And also: why should the alarmists be allowed to use attribution studies as scientific proof while ‘deniers’ need exact numerical calculations backed by data which they then reject by using the consensus argument?
There are plenty of alternatives in regards to the consensus.
And to add: the alarmists seem to like the idea of presenting simplified models and assuming their calculations are more or less right while rejecting others who question it. They keep on falling back to the consensus if they cant win a scientific argument. Because they HAVE to.It’s the ultimate answer when challenged and you cannot supply the evidence of the contrary.
They would have to admit that most of the alarmism is attribution. It’s in the models themselves..
I’d sure like to see an article titled “I love more CO2 and global warming”
I read the May and Crok paper a while ago and found nothing that could be refuted. I just read it again with the same result. This paper is written in a way to avoid criticism, pass peer review and get published. It was a success if that was the goal.
Carbon-Dioxide-and-a-Warming-Climate-are-not-problems_Final_Submission_no_logo.pdf
There are no surprises in the paper, claims of unique climate science knowledge, or 100 year climate predictions.
But we learned a lot about the current sad state of climate science by reading the criticisms of the paper. They are pitiful attempts to refute the obvious fact that global warming caused no harm in the past 49 years … despite 49 years of gloomy predictions. And character attack the authors and their motives.
It is true that Carbon Dioxide and a Warming Climate are not problems. But it is also somewhat deceptive to say that. The past 49 years of CO2 emissions and warming have both been 100% good news. Not a problem is a weak description.
We should be celebrating more CO2 in the atmosphere. Better plant growth — at least +10% more growth from the last +100 ppm added CO2. Longer growing seasons. More areas that will support food crops.
And then we have warmer winters caused by an increasing greenhouse effect. More good news.
From the home page of my blog with over one million lifetime page views:
“CO2 emissions cause warmer winters in colder nations and states, mainly at night, and greening of our planet. More food plants support more life. Atmospheric CO2 is not too high, it is too low. More CO2 should be celebrated. That’s why Net Zero is a waste of money.”
Honest Climate Science and Energy
It is a pity there is no evidence that atmospheric CO2 doesn’t cause warming,
(as you have shown many times)
Warmer winters in surface data are caused by the urban heating effect.
The current warm surge comes from…
… increased levels of solar energy being absorbed in the tropics
… a wide-spread El Nino event, taking its time to subside,
… and probably some effect from the HT volcano and increased WV in the stratosphere.
There is no evidence of human causation.
The 2023/24 spike has been NGW…. not AGW
You are correct about everything else, so get a thumbs up. ! 🙂
A thumbs up from BeNasty is not something to hope for. I was expecting the usual Three Stooges style verbal “face slap, eye poke and head bop”
https://youtu.be/lk6_7DTVN8Q
You didn’t say too much that was arrant unsupportable nonsense..
Very unusual !!
From the late John Daly’s website “Still Waiting for Greenhouse”, is a graphic of the plots of the temperatures in Death Valley from 1922 to 2001 (See below). In 1922 the concentration of CO2 in dry air was 303 ppmv (0.595 g of CO2/cu. m. of air), and by 2001, it had increased to 371 ppmv (0.729 g of CO2/cu. m. of air), but there was no corresponding increase in the temperature of the air at this arid desert site. The reason there was no increase temperature is quite simple:
There is too little CO2 in the air.
The empirical temperature from this remote arid desert falsifies the claim by the IPCC that CO2 (i.e., “the control knob”) causes “global warming”. The purpose of this lie is to provide the UN the justification to distribute funds, via the UNFCCC and the UN COP, from donor rich countries to the poor countries to help them cope with “global warming” and “climate change”. At the recent COP29 conference the poor countries came clamoring for not for billions, but now trillions of funds. They left the conference with no commitments from the rich countries.
NB: John Daly’s website is available at: http://www.John-Daly.com. From the home page, scroll down to the end and click on the bar “Station Temperature Data”. This brings up the World Map. Click on a region to access temperature data from the weather stations there. The sources of the temperature data for the graphics are the GISS and the CRU databases.
Parts of Australia show no increase in night temps at all for at least 100 years.
Does the BoM have a chart or graph for these data? I have learned from articles posted here that the politicians have put Qz on road to
energy ruin and poverty.
Go to John Daly’s website and check out the graphics for Brisbane,
Alice Springs, and Adelaide which showed a cooling trend.
If everybody learned of John Daly’s website, all this global warming
and climate change nonsense would vanish over night.
That was indeed the goal, we wrote it to be as straightforward and non-controversial as possible, no projections. Look what has happened? There is no stronger proof of serious bias in climate science peer review.
Yes, very good paper.
Realistically, with respect to how climate change is addressed, I envision that waste of resources and redistribution of wealth, mainly from the middle class to the wealthy, will continue, as will the growth of the atmospheric concentration of CO2.
If we are lucky, populist movements will curtail the waste of resources and wealth redistribution.
“that waste of resources and redistribution of wealth,”
You mean the $41 billion of unaccounted for money from the climate trough ??
That sounds like a bargain.
On Jan. 21 or shortly thereafter, Pres. Donald Trump will terminate “donations” to the UNFCCC, the UN COP and the IPCC.
That’s the World Bank and whilst the figures are disputed I’m sure if you went further back in to their disbursements to other “projects” over the years you would find similar discrepancies and many grateful people all around the world.
Richard, it’s always a relief to know that you are still not dead. And in this post, even your unsupported claims of cause and effect fall well within the wide spectrum of skeptic positions.
Harold the Organic Chemist Says:
At the MLO in Hawaii, the concentration of CO2 in dry air is 422 ppmv. One cubic meter
of this air has a mere 0.829 g of CO2 and a mass of 1.29 kg. This small amount of CO2 can heat up such a large mass air by a very small amount if at all.
In air at 70 deg. F and with 70% RH, the concentration of H20 is 14,780 ppmv. One cubic meter of this air has 11.9 g of H2O, 0.78 g of CO2, and a mass of 1.20 kg. To the first approximation and all thinks being equal, the proportion of the greenhouse effect (GHE) due H2O is given by:
GHE for H2O = 14,780 ppmv / 14,780 ppmv + 422 ppmv = 0.97 or 97%
This simple calculation assumes that a molecule of H2O and a molecule of CO2 absorb about the same amount of IR energy. Actually, H2O absorbs much more IR energy than CO2 and is the 800 pound Guerrilla Greenhouse Gas. 71% of the earth’s surface is covered by H20.
How do inform the folks in California, that CO2 does not cause global warming before
Gov Gavin N. ends up wrecking the economy?
I find this graphic useful but it omits water vapor.
H2O was left out because the amount is quite variable. In the desert, humidity can be near zero in a dry desert such as the Atacama or a low few percent in an arid desert such as the Sonoran. In a hot jungle with an air temperature of 90 deg. F, one cubic meter of air can contain ca. 40 g of H2O for 100% RH.
We should make a copy of the graphic and send it to Gov Gavin N, and inform him we do not phase out cars and trucks with ICE’s.
To add: anything warming the air will be offset by something that cools it as the system is dynamic. It is largely self regulating. Co2 is in itself stable but small and it is in a system containing lots of H20 which is the main energy mover. It seems the IPCC holds on to the idea that Co2 moves/ forces the H20 which is absurd. It is an assumption that runs counter to our knowledge about the climate system..
Is that right!? Please show how and where that was measured or at least observed,. ….or continue to make a fool of yourself…Whatever.
It is based on attribution and assumption that is simply stated, then they use their calculations in models to determine reality.And if that doesnt work they force it with more attribution. It is how it operates.RG seems to like it also..
Richard, My cap I wear all the time says, “Celebrate CO2”. I think there should be more research on the benefits of CO2 and the economic value.
It’s a long (and winding) road you are treading. It’s ridiculous that you are forced to go through all of these hoops just to point out that nothing disastrous is actually happening, when even the IPCC agree.
More power to you for having the patience and fortitude to defend the position of sanity in a field of seemingly deluded useful idiots and over-zealous political activists.
Thanks! Oddly writing a bulletproof article that simply points out that the “consensus hypothesis” has no foundation was remarkably easy. No wonder Wiley is shaking in their boots.
I agree with Point Seven. Most scientific papers can be rephrased to avoid jargon, even if it makes it longer. And the effort of writing for someone who is not in your field of study should result in avoiding obvious errors in logic.
True, but that would expose climate alarmists for what they are.
Plus, two other aphorisms also apply.
My goal is to eliminate the middleman, get the mainstream media out of the science distorting business.
The AJES is behind a paywall, so I’ll have to go by your version:
“Who appointed Wiley to be the judge of “truth” in science?”
You did. You submitted your paper to a Wiley journal. They get to choose what they are prepared to publish.
“He has 203 citations in google”
Yes, for articles in petrophysics. The top climate article has 6 citations. And, drilling down, 5 of those are from A. May. The other was a takedown by Cobb.
“The two peer reviewers who accepted it are very accomplished scientists who have written extensively about climate science.”
Don’t be coy. Who were they? And who was the editor who invited it?
We’re talking about the end of the world and you can’t be bothered to pay for an article because it’s behind a paywall.
Pathetic.
We’re talking about some Wiley editors criticising a paper, not the end of the world.
The ONLY reason seems to be that they didn’t like having to face the truth !
How about we flip the script Nick.
Instead of arguing about Wiley’s role, or who the reviewers are, how about you explain what it is in May and Crok that warrants rejection?
Nick doesn’t do “science”..
He does niggling nit-picking.
I’m having a conversation with Nick. Not you. Butt out.
Its an open forum, hoff. Bad luck. Don’t cry. !
Do you still think a glass jar represents evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2??
That was hilarious. !
For the FIFTH (SIXTH) effing time I specifically said in my original comment that it is NOT representative of the atmosphere. Your dedication to sliming me with untrue insulting statements marks you for what you are. An angry little troll yelling at the world through anonymous little internet connection.
All that’s missing is the rocking chair, a waving cane, and shouts of “get off my lawn”.
Down thread is an actual answer to my question that has substance and value. Its what an actual discussion sounds like. STFU and read, you might learn something.
If it is not representative of the atmosphere why did you even mention it !
So funny watching you rant !!
“Substance and value”.. (lol) whatever you say !!
Now where’s that empirical scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2.
ps. certainly not wasting my time going back to look for comments from someone that fills his comments with stuff he knows is irrelevant.
The fact that it took 5 or 6 repeats of the exact same facts before you admitted I never said it was representative of the atmosphere it speaks to your reading comprehension. That you don’t even bother to apologize to me for the false accusations says much about your ethics.
That you also don’t understand the reason I mentioned it speaks to your complete and total inability to understand the physics and science involved.
You presented it in an argument about warming by atmospheric CO2 even though you knew it was totally irrelevant.
That really is disingenuous and unethical.
I understand exactly why you presented it.. that is why I am laughing. ! 🙂
Noted…. you are still incapable of presenting ANYTHING in the way of empirical scientific evidence for warming by atmospheric CO2..!!
“you might learn something.”
Not from you, I won’t !
You have nothing to offer.
Oh you won’t learn anything from me, I am certain of that. Has to do mostly with you, not with me.
As for your assertion that it was totally irrelevant, I refer you back to my previous comment on the matter. You don’t understand the science, so you deem it irrelevant.
Poor hoff, yes I do understand the science.
That is why I laugh at your pathetic attempts.
—-
“so you deem it irrelevant.”
Haven’t you been scwarking that it was unrepresentative??
(hence irrelevant)
Are you now saying the glass jar is relevant to atmospheric CO2….???
…. after all your manic protestation that it isn’t.
That’s funny ! 🙂
—
Now where’s that empirical scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2.
Still waiting…. and waiting…..
You know, angry little troll, that Caterpillar, the heavy equipment company, has spectroscopy labs in all of their dealerships all over the world. Why you might ask?
Because by taking oil samples from working equipment, incinerating them in the lab, measuring the intensity of the various wavelengths emitted, exactly how much copper, iron, and another dozen or so molecules are in the oil. By tracking these, Caterpillar can accurately pinpoint unusual wear that presages failure of a specific part. They can then change the part before an actual failure, which would do more damage not to mention happen out in the field where it has to be then towed to the shop. The program has been in place for decades, and it works.
Why am I telling you this? Because the exact same spectroscopy equipment and methodology that Caterpillar uses is how we know what CO2 does with wavelengths emitted from earth. We know which ones it absorbs, and that after absorption the additional energy the molecule has is either re-emitted in a random direction or given up to another molecule by collision. Its in text books, its in university labs all over the world where students studying physics, chemistry, engineering and spectroscopy replicate those experiments and get results consistent with the text books.
So you want us to believe that spectroscopy gets it right across a long list of molecules, is verified daily by private and public labs and text books all over the world and they get everything right… Except for CO2.
Get over it. The direct effects of CO2 are well known and well measured. If you wish to argue that sensitivity is low, or that feedbacks are negative, or that natural variation is so large it doesn’t matter, by all means do so. Provided that you are polite and remain civil. But screaming that CO2 does nothing thread after thread is both tedious and outright wrong.
Your 8 engineers that you are so fond of quoting built a model based on the exact same spectroscopic principals. They ran their model forward and reported the results arrived at 5 years in the future. That is simply bad science.
The atmosphere and the upper layers of earth surface, land and water alike, have a huge thermal mass. Transient Climate Sensitivity is about 70 years, Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity is measured in centuries. Its like your engineers put a large pot of water on an oven burner set to low for 5 seconds and then declared they couldn’t measure any change in the water temperature so the stove burner must be off. Well it is on, and had they left the pot long enough, they would have measured a temperature change.
I sense a refutation laced with anger and invective coming, go ahead and make as big a fool of yourself as you wish.
More mindless and irrelevant kamal-speak.
“is verified daily by private and public labs”
Goes back to the unrepresentative and irrelevant glass jar. So
funny !! 🙂
Yes, CO2 is a radiatively active gas…. so what !!
Zero evidence submitted to do with warming the actual atmosphere.
Just yap, yap, yap
Thinks radiative actions are the only action in the atmosphere.. Now that’s just silly !
Now where’s that empirical scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2.
Still waiting…. and waiting…..
Only person making a fool of themselves is YOU. !
But do keep going, its fun to watch 🙂
Take it to email then.
bnasty hurles his invective from the safety of anonymity. He’s not going to share his email address.
Poor little hoff. !
Need a nappy change ??
Did you not remember what you wrote?
OK David,
Firstly, the Journal should have declined it. It is a fringe economics journal espousing the tax ideas of Henry George, so the paper is way out of their field. That is why I think it is important to know who invited the May paper, and who were the distinguished climate scientists who reviewed it.
Secondly, as a scientific paper, it should be rejected if only for the weakness of its sources. It cites pages from the blogs of Homewood and Curry. It relies rather heavily on Javier Vinos’ self-published book. And even for better published material, it relies rather exclusively on sources like McKitrick and Pielke. A proper paper should look more broadly at the science.
Thirdly, it is just a long unfocussed ramble.. It goes from how we didn’t like the LIA to damage caused by extreme weather to cutting back on fossil fuel The result is basically an assertion that May and Grok do not think there is a problem.
Firstly there is absolutely NOTHING in the paper that would have lead to it being rejected.
It tells the facts from start to finish.
You have not countered a single one of those facts.
Your empty hole comment should be rejected because it is trite, dishonest, meaningless and disingenuous.
“The result is basically an assertion that May and Grok do not think there is a problem.”
WELL DONE.. You figured it out !!
Nick,
The main source for the paper is AR6 WGI, cited 44 times. Homewood is cited once in combination with Parker and Behringer – do you want to challenge them? McKitrick is cited several times, he is the leading expert on the model hot spot after all and cited in AR5 and AR6 several times. Pielke Jr is the leading expert on normalization of extreme weather events, he is also cited numerous times in AR5 and AR6. I am in good company citing them.
I’m sorry you see the paper as a “long unfocused ramble,” thankfully you are alone in that opinion as far as I know.
And, yes, the point of the paper is that Marcel and I do not think there is a problem, at least you got that from it, which was the intent. The reason we were invited to write the paper was to explain that point, we did our job. There is no reason to reject the paper as the AJES board explained to Wiley. It was what they asked for, it has no problems, and it is uncontroversial. Wiley’s problem is that it comes to the wrong conclusion in their biased view. That is Wiley’s problem not ours.
“The reason we were invited to write the paper”
But you still haven’t said who invited you. Or who were those:
“two peer reviewers who accepted it are very accomplished scientists who have written extensively about climate science”
“are very accomplished scientists”
Well, Nick certainly wouldn’t be one of them !
Bet he can’t show a thing wrong with Andy’s paper.
Gwartney & Lough couldn’t…..
… They just didn’t like the facts and the reality.
Sorry to jump in here, but I can’t restrain myself –
WHY THE FVCK DOES IT MATTER WHO SAID ANYTHING IN SCIENTIFIC DISCOURSE?
ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT THEY SAID!!
It clearly matters deeply to Stokes and Simon, but not at all to anyone serious.
Andy May thinks it’s important – it is he who keeps repeating how distinguished and qualified were the scientists who provided the peer review and invited submission. In fact this is a key pillar of his defense of the paper.
Why are you so passionately averse to learning who the reviewers were?
The question is WHY DO YOU NEED TO KNOW?
Knowing the reviewers and ridiculing both them and the paper does not change the facts that are presented in in the paper.
We all know you wish to generate a “cancel culture” attack on the reviewers so don’t be obtuse. The reviewers have the option of choosing to remain anonymous, learn to live with it.
If you want to criticize the paper, do so with facts. That is the scientific method.
I don’t need to know, and haven’t asked. Andy claims the reviewers are highly distinguished climate experts, so it isn’t clear why you assume they’d be subject to ridicule. My point is simply that Andy seems to think it is of vital importance to reassure us that the reviewers are qualified, he repeated it several times.
There is a factual critical analysis of the paper being published alongside it by Tinnus Pulles.
Pulles uses AGW-mantra propaganda all the way through, most it just bogus.
Cites the erroneous conjecture of CO2 warming by Arrhenius several time.. Not a good look !
Stick to that unproven conjecture for all he is worth
Bases his argument on “Expectations” from unvalidated climate models… Even worse.
May & Crok are totally correct to not bother with such nonsense.
The paper has not been published yet, how do you know its contents?
I have the Pulles.pdf in front of me.
Why continue to show you are an incompetent fool ??
…
That is not the referenced paper, which has not yet been published, that is a summary of comments on the manuscript. You can see that this is the case from a cursory glance at the pdf.
Wow , you clearly are a complete moron.
It is a copy of the comments made by Pulles.
These comments sit next to the May&Crok paper in the pdf. I have in front of me.
Continues on with the BS mantra shown below.
Agrees there are no apparent present effects of “climate change”
Then goes on about “Expectations”, which are obviously derived from unvalidate climate computer games, based on the fake CO2 warming conjecture and erroneous physics. Pure fantasy.. not science.
Nobody cares if he is happy to be sucking from the climate trough… another stupid anti-science comment that gives his rabid activism full exposure.
The “policies” have done absolutely NOTHING to slow down the highly beneficial increase in atmospheric CO2.
Then brings in the mythical 1.5C and 2C memes… Hilarious. 🙂
It is totally unimportant and irrelevant how UNFCCC “classifies” computer game outputs.
May and Crok were total justified in not bothering with this anti-science nonsense.
Comments like “CO2 absorbs outgoing radiation and immediately re-emits it in all directions”..
… shows he has little understanding of what actually happens,
ie the thermalisation to the remaining 99.96% of the atmosphere at a somewhere near a 50,000: 1 ratio
Even makes the ludicrous claim that “models have been shown to work quite well”
Uses all the well-worn fake claims of the bog-standard climate alarmist.
Just like you, the bloke has little to no credibility left..
You asked this.
And you expect people to assume that YOU DON’T WANT TO KNOW?
ROTFLMAO!
After all your past ad hominem statements. Why do you think anyone would expect anything different.
Tell you what, make some effusive praises of Dr. Soon, Dr. Happer, or Willis E. concerning their work on climate. Refute some of your past ad hominem attacks on their work. Then, maybe folks might begin to expect something better from you.
You have stated this so everyone can know your position. It has nothing to do with the facts presented in the either Andy’s paper or the refutation. To be honest, the authors have little to do with the conclusions made in their papers. They could be anonymous and nothing will change what the papers contain. Move on from your obsession with the authors and the reviewers and address the CONTENT of the papers.
Thanks for confirming you have only ad hominem slurs rather than substantive criticism.
It is instructive.
No actually reinforcing of the obvious.
That this place is full of hypocrisy as well as denial of climate science.
So the likes of bnice2000 does not have “only ad hominem slurs”?
When even a long time poster here (davidmhoffer) has to call about his nastiness (why I call him the Oxymoron – Oxy for short).
Actually that is some staggering hypocrisy Graemethecat.
Poor Banton.
Yet another incoherent, pointless and totally evidence-free and science-free post.
Pathetic. Your credibility is in the very bottom of the sewer.
Try again, muppet.. or fail for the 1356th time
1… Please provide empirical scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2.
2… Please show the evidence of CO2 warming in the UAH atmospheric data.
Thanks Nick.
But I’ve been following this debate for a very long time and, as per Andy May’s response, those sources are impeccable. In fact, again per Andy May, the primary evidence is predicated in IPCC AR6 sources. Forbes recently published an article on climate change and noted the absence of any significant trend in what they called the four horseman of the apocalypse. Hurricanes, Droughts, Floods and Wildfires show no sign of change. I would add to that (World of Data) that crop production is accelerating faster than population while using about the same amount of land.
The whole point of the debate is to understand endangerment. An economics journal should, in fact, be one of the most important forums to build a solid grasp of climate impacts. In fact, do the AR reports not have an entire chapter each dedicated to economic impacts? Yes they do. Both economic journals and business journals (such as Forbes, not to mention The Economist also running articles on climate change) should in fact be inviting articles on the impact of climate change. In fact, it would be irresponsible not to invite discussion in their forums. What if an agriculture focused invited a paper, would you argue that the agricultural industry should be excluded from studying climate change impacts?
It seems to me that your argument boils down to a belief that climate discussions should only occur in your approved list of journals, and only citing your approved list of sources. You’ve not presented a single aspect of the paper that was factually wrong so instead you cast aspersions on venue and sources.
I might add, simply casting aspersions is the favoured tactic of the Bnasty little angry troll. His grasp of the science is so weak as to suggest he’s just a false flag operation sent to muddy threads to the point they are useless and paint skeptics as idiots. The difference between his posts and yours is that you write much longer more articulate answers. OK, he relies on crass insults and false accusations as well so that comparison is not completely fair, but you get my point.
You Nick understand the science, you Nick have no such excuse. I expect more of you.
Poor hoff, we are all still waiting for your for your empirical scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2.
And please, no glass jars this time !!
So far you are devoid of any science, and seem to be incapable of producing any.
You seem to have reached a self-imposed Dunning-Kruger stage
I have no doubt that you would have been Dunning-Kruger’s star pupil, repeatedly asked to come to the front of the class to explain simple concepts to those with high enough marks to pass.
Well that was pathetic. !!
You would be lucky indeed to get high enough marks to pass junior science.
“You Nick understand the science”
No, Nick understands the mantra. !
—
“I expect more of you.”
Then you don’t understand Nick at all, do you !
David,
You asked me why the paper should have been rejected, and I told you. Citing sources such as blog pages is an absolute no-no, and would certainly lead to rejection. Normally, of course, the reviewers require a modification, and that is OK. But these “very accomplished scientists who have written extensively about climate science” let it through. That is one reason why I am curious as to who they are.
“In fact, do the AR reports not have an entire chapter each dedicated to economic impacts? Yes they do”
Well, the AR6 does, but that was a departure. Normally that is left to WG2.
But Andy’spaper isn’t just about economic impacts. Here are the sections:
The physical science case for dangerous anthropogenic climate change
What is the evidence of current damage due to CO2 or global warming?
Additional CO2 and global warming benefits and costs
Comparing past temperatures to modern temperatures
The Little Ice Age
CO2 and global warming benefits
Conclusions
As I said, it is a complete mishmash. A proper scientific paper would not try to cover all that, even if it had a point. The reason is that it would be obliged to present the full scientific background. Many scientists have worked on each of these fragments. Instead May offers “McKitrick says…”, Pielke says…”, Vinos says…”. Such heavy reliance on single figures would not be allowed. But they are fringe scientists. That isn’t an aspersion – they just are. Andy says that McKitrick is an expert on the tropical hot spot. He isn’t. He is an economist. A true expert would at least deal with evidence presented by Sherwood et al and others that there is indeed an observed tropical hotspot.
As to trying to show things that are wrong, well, where to start in such a mishmash. It’s always at least off the beam, and often due to its narrow sourcing. Take the featured diagram here. It shows that the AMO and HADCRUT 4 are closely correlated. But so what? The “AMO” presented is just the North Atlantic SST anomaly average. That is a substantial constituent of HADCRUT.. Showing that the North Atlantic tracks the global average does not prove anything.
WRONG in every sense. and your comment is a complete mish-mash.
You have absolutely NOTHING to counter anything in the actual paper.
You know that..
… and everyone else knows you know that.
“an expert on the tropical hot spot. He isn’t.”
Yep , hard to be an expert on something that doesn’t exist !
And McKitrick knows far more about data analysis than Nick ever did or ever will.
Everyone knows that Sherwood’s “evidence” was a maniacal load of contrived nonsense, basically a complete fantasy.
Sorry, citing blog posts is very common and accepted these days, I see it all the time. See the University of Cambridge Research Integrity page:
https://www.research-integrity.admin.cam.ac.uk/research-integrity-guidance/citing-blogs-reference-sources
In any case, our citation of Homewood was part of a list of references that all made the same point, they included Wolfgang Behringer and Geoffery Parker, you can’t argue with them or Paul Homewood for that matter.
I don’t go into it in the paper because it was tangential to my point, but the fact that the AMO and the HadCRUT4 global average temperature track one another is important evidence that CO2 has little impact on global average temperature. Think about it, you should be able to figure out why.
Remember this was never intended to be a research paper, it was invited as a literature review and that is what we did.
“ See the University of Cambridge Research Integrity page:”
I did. Here is an excerpt:
“it was invited as a literature review and that is what we did”
It covers only a small and eccentric part of the literature. But in your article you say that it “was intended to explain the science behind the “climate denial” point of view, and it accomplished that”
“the AMO and the HadCRUT4 global average temperature track one another is important evidence that CO2 has little impact on global average temperature. Think about it, you should be able to figure out why.”
No, and this is some of the poor scientific reasoning that was criticised. What you have plotted is North Atlantic SST vs global temperature. It is really not surprising that they are related. But you want to say that because the former has a name (AMO) it must be a cause, and one which is driving global temperature (and so not CO2). It is not. It is just another observation.
Nick,
You continue to disappoint me. Attached is the part of the Cambridge page on blog sources you left out.
So, now AR6 and AR5 only cover a “small and eccentric part of the literature.” They were my main sources. Your emphasis on Homewood’s excellent blog post is absurd, particularly since it was accompanied with Parker and Behringer.
In fact, I tried to look up the Homewood cite, pasting your url, and got:
404: Page Not Found
We are terribly sorry, but the URL you typed no longer exists. It might have been moved or deleted, or perhaps you mistyped it.
Just like Cambridge warned about!
I get the same message, not sure what happened. It was just a few months ago that I was reading that page. I don’t have Paul Homewood’s email so I can’t ask him. Anyway, Parker’s and Behringer’s books are available. They are sufficient and quite good.
Nick,
I contacted Paul Homewood about this problem and he restored the post, it is the same URL:
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2022/05/08/extreme-weather-during-the-maunder-minimum/
OK, but it shows one of the reasons why Cambridge says not to cite blogs. Another is authorship and authority. Paul Homewood is no medieval history scholar, and does not claim to be. His entire post is a quote from a Wiki (also a no-no for citation).
As for the AMO and global temperatures, we will find out soon enough when the AMO goes negative, which it should do in the next ten years. No need to argue the point now when we will find out so soon.
It was in fact Michael Mann who gave the AMO its name. And there is certainly about 2 cycles of an apparent periodicity. But, in 2021:
“Today, in a research article published in the same journal Science, my colleagues and I have provided what we consider to be the most definitive evidence yet that the AMO doesn’t actually exist.”
Michael Mann claims to have named it in an email, but the first published use of the name is in 2000 by Richard Kerr and Kerr doesn’t mention Michael Mann in his article in Science.
https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.288.5473.1984
Gray (2004) established that it has existed since 1567AD.
Mann admits that observations of the AMO are statistically significant, he just says that climate models do not produce a statistically significant AMO, thus he falls into the trap of believing models over data.
In Mann, 2020 he admits a natural oscillation. In Mann 2021 he tries to say there isn’t, but the study is only climate model masturbation, based on models and standard model input. He provides no evidence for a 50-70-year volcanic cycle, and I doubt one exists.
He is correct that model output of an “AMO-like” oscillation is not statistically significant, but it is well known that observations and proxies produce a statistically significant oscillation. That evidence goes all the way back to Gray, 2004.
“Kerr doesn’t mention Michael Mann in his article in Science.”
Absolutely untrue. Kerr is a science journalist who is interviewing Michael Mann. From his article:
One more point on the AMO and global temperature. Look at this graph. What is driving global temperature? Black is 30N to 60N.
All that shows is that the NH has a strong pattern, the others mostly level, and so as a matter of simple averaging arithmetic, the global temperature picks up a fraction of the NH pattern.
True, that is my point.
On millennial scales it is the Earth’s orbital characteristics.
And that effect necessarily shows up only in the NH.
Why?
Because it is where the vast majority of landmass is – and hence where it’s ice-sheets are in glacials.
The mechanism is that the TSI at 65 deg N has strongest effect as 65 N is the latitude encircling the most landmass/ice sheet.
Melt/formation over millennia.
The SH Ii vastly ocean and hence no ice-sheet turnover ( Antarctica is a permanent.
The milankovitch cycles are fedback by CO2 to deepen the response to cooling or warming.
You assert that CO2 reinforces Milankovitch Cycles. How do you know this?
Your hypothesis cannot be falsified, nor does it provide any testable predictions.
Why does warming beginning when CO2 is at a minimum and cooling when it is at a maximum?
Your whole argument is that people should not step out of their area of expertise and you judge their expertise not by what they may have learned but what their education background is.
Your analysis would shut out many scientists who declare what CO2 does by claiming knowledge of radiation physics. Why don’t you show us the education in radiation physics of some of the leading CAGW scientists like Schmidt, Hanson, Mann, etc.
Your assertion would make people like Happer, Wijngaarden, Soon, and Baliunas more appropriate scientists who have studied radiation physics.
One more thing, what are your credentials that allow you to judge the knowledge that others possess?
Hi Nick,
You are picking nits again. So fine, AR5 WG2 rather than just AR5 has an entire section on economic impacts. In fact, I wrote an article for WUWT showing that the economic impacts based on the IPCC AR5 WG2 report showed no cause for alarm. The SPM on the other hand was quite alarming and the lead author (Richard Tol) resigned from the SPM in protest. He showed up in comments and even agreed with specific criticisms I made.
I haven’t read AR6 yet, but I doubt much has changed. Per Forbes, per May & Crok the IPCC shows no discernable trends in hurricanes, droughts, floods, wildfires. In fact, the only discernable trend that I am aware of is food production. We have more food per capita then at any other time in history. The only famines we have today are reserved those unfortunate enough to be in a war zone or citizens of regimes like North Korea.
As for showing that the North Atlantic tracks the global average does not prove anything, agreed. But knowing that the North Atlantic tracks the global average is useful. It helps put historical references in context. Vikings farming Greenland for example, or the dozens of vineyards in Britain that disappeared during the Little Ice Age and which are just starting to make a comeback now that it has warmed enough to support them.
As for defining certain scientists as fringe, that’s just a Bnasty strategy. Define any facts that don’t fit your narrative as non facts.
McKitrick is an economist. So what? The existence of the hot spot is determined by statistical analysis, is there a better statistician out there than McKitrick?
This reminds me of Roy Spencer’s paper which was withdrawn from Remote Sensing. It passed peer review, was published, and post publication was withdrawn by the Editor (Wolfgang Schwartz). He resigned over “allowing” the paper to be published, but stated for the record that there was nothing technically wrong with the paper. Then why withdraw it then? No comment. A group of internet sleuths from WUWT (I played a small part) investigated. Wolfgang Schwartz research grants were threatened by someone “in the US” and he admitted that also, but would not say who. I figured out what his research area was and that most of his research grants were coming from WEGEX which in turn was chaired by Kevin Trenberth. We were never able to prove that it was Trenberth who made the threats, but who the specific person was is immaterial. The paper passed peer review and was withdrawn despite nothing technically being wrong with it. Something stinks as they say…
So we’re left with a similar foul smell here also. An economic focused journal asked specific people to comment on specific issues and they provided specific references to back up their conclusions. Had someone more in line with your thinking asked for the opportunity to provide a rebuttal, that would have made some sense. Simply withdrawing it because the ownership group, obviously pressured by someone, sought to have it removed is censorship, plain and simple. Those who push the alarmist narrative are terrified by the fact that they are easily debunked using nothing more than what their precious IPCC reports say.
There is no cause for alarm Nick, and that is why this paper is being censored. Censored is the correct word here. Can’t have a bunch of economists being pointed to AR6 and discovering that they’ve been worrying about nothing, can we?
“Had someone more in line with your thinking asked for the opportunity to provide a rebuttal, that would have made some sense. Simply withdrawing it because the ownership group, obviously pressured by someone, sought to have it removed is censorship, plain and simple.”
David, you are not keeping up. They did not withdraw it. They did provide a rebuttal (Cobb); in fact I think Cobb was the editor of AJES at the time. Also Pulles. The paper is not censored. It encountered disagreement. That is the complaint.
The things I would like to see resolved, which Andy won’t, are
Who invited the paper, and what did they actually ask for
Who were these reviewers, of whom Andy can tell us that they have amassed over 15000 citations, but can’t tellus who they were.
Too bad that you can’t have the people involved so you can disparage them.
The identities you want to know have nothing to do with the facts and conclusions in the paper. There can be only one reason to know them, and that is to “cancel” them.
Make your arguments about the content of the paper and not the author nor the reviewers. Do you honestly believe that any of the content would change if the author or reviewers were anonymous? If not, then who they are really doesn’t matter does it?
Thanks David, well done.
Thanks Andy.
I was hoping to have a discussion among adults and I think we got that.
Aaaaaaha ha ha ha ha. Since when does any paper on climate change look at the science?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
The science says… It has been a bit warmer lately and we really don’t know why. That is ALL the science says. God spare me!
Stokes trying desperately to rescue the reputation of a corrupt journal.
Ah! So Nick firmly believes that what is published by Wiley is the “truth” in science!
Good to know how you think.
No. Wiley believes that what they publish is true. Most people do. We expect that.
And if they have doubts, they say so. We expect that too.
LIAR.. They know the paper is correct as written.
The Gwartney & Lough comments show that
They don’t want to publish because it actually delivers a message based on REALITY, not climate fiction.
You don’t know what they know nasty little troll. Unless you can read minds from a distance?
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
~Hanlon’s razor
Political pressure, ignorance, willful blindness, malice, you have no idea what they “know”.
They were totally unable to produce anything that countered the paper.
That means they do know the paper was correct.
As per your directions… I attribute your comments to stupidity.
They didn’t counter the paper, they just pressured the editorial board to reject it. Even if they did, it doesn’t tell you what they know, it only tells you what they said.
Reading comprehension problem combined with a total logic fail.
No wonder you are anonymous.
Poor Hoff.
“doesn’t tell you what they know, it only tells you what they said.”
What a moronically stupid and illogical comment !!
Yap off like a good little puppy !
For someone who spends a great deal of time telling people on the internet that they are wrong, don’t know what they are talking about, or just plain calling them liars, I find it amusing that you think what they said tells you what they know.
Shout your rage, stomp your feet, clench your fists, let steam come out of your ears. I had a exchange of information with the adults in the room who remained civil even in disagreement. They post under their own names, they’re not afraid to take responsibility for own words, nor to hear criticism. They embrace it.
You’ve learned nothing, you’ve taught nothing. Sometimes you irritate me, but mostly I just pity you.
Does Wiley not know that the vast majority of published papers are outright wrong? Are they immune to this phenomena?
No. Could you cite a published paper supporting that?
Ioannidis 2005.
And, wouldn’t you know it, it now comes with a correction. But why do you believe this published paper?
There is a link to the final submitted version in the post, you don’t have to pay for that.
I was referring to the AJES statement. Cobb seems paywalled too.
Gwartney & Lough is “Full Access.” The whole editorial is online. See here:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ajes.12609
You will have to pay to see Cobb. I suspect that you will have to pay for Pulles also when it is finally out.
But I doubt any of them will find anything wrong with May & Crok, we were very careful. That is probably why they are so upset.
What is “wrong” with your paper is that it delivers a REALISTIC message..
…. not one based on alarmist fakery.
Your link here still demands payment.
Nick, the whole paper is there. They might want payment for the pdf, but you don’t need it. Also, there is another pdf button at the bottom that might work without payment.
You do need the PDF, and there is no free option available. But no matter, it’s only $10, a small price for the sake of curiosity. The AJES letter is not a rebuttal of May and Crok, it is simply a brief note explaining the publisher’s decision to move forward with the paper’s publication, and their reasoning for inviting a critical assessment of the paper (Pulles) to be published alongside it:
You should celebrate that they are publishing Pulles alongside your paper, it is after all forwarding the cause of critical discourse.
Incompetent fool !!
Pulles showed he is nothing but a brainwashed and very ignorant AGW- parrot.
Some of his comments are so totally ludicrous as to be those of a complete climate clown.
Alan,
I have no problem with them publishing the Pulles paper alongside mine, although if it contains errors, I will point them out in posts. I’ve seen two versions of his critique and both contained serious errors. He needs to fix the errors. His thesis is that I am correct and there are no signs of dangerous climate change (man-made or natural) right now, but models say there will be in future. If he sticks with that, I have no problems. But (like Gwartney & Lough) he tends to go off the reservation and tell falsehoods.
As I say in this post I am glad that they are formally publishing May & Crok, but they made many errors in their editorial about Marcel and I and our paper, I needed to correct those.
I haven’t read the paper either and probably wouldn’t understand all of it. Nevertheless, simple language and some basic understanding can reveal a lot. I don’t have the numbers but it seems evident that we have had a centralization of journals, specimen collections, libraries, research grants, etc. The few I experienced lately have been done without due process (peer review of consequences) which makes them suspect. Decades ago justifying a job I had to someone who had the right to know I thought that more public exposure would be better. Hmmm, certainly not the top down structural systems we have now as the Wiley example showed. In my field plenty gets exposed, but it still seems inadequate and too often biased. I could dig up more but this is telling. Been awhile since I read it, but I thought that they were trying to be nice. I suspect that more than one in four papers gets ignored and publication requires payment which used to be just for unusual costs like color. Formerly independent journals have been taken over by major publishers.
Todd, P. A., et al. 2010. One in four citations in marine biology journals is inappropriate. Marine Ecology Progress Series. 408:299-303. https://doi.org/10.3354/meps08597
The argument... “… two authors who lack any experience publishing in scientific journals …”
Living up to ”Nit Pick” I see.. Absolutely pathetic.
Yes it is, and so typical. Does he really think people are stupid and can’t see right through this act?
I don’t think its an “act”…. I think it is actually “who he is”.
Nick,
Surely the editors of AJEs were “appointed” to judge, not the Wiley company.
AJES did their job.
In fact this article is Andy’s objection to the AJES editors doing their job.
The editors PASSED the paper.. what don’t you understand, thick-Nick !
They had zero reason to reject it.
There is some AGW-cultist activist at Wiley that doesn’t want it published because it tells the truth, and is putting pressure on the editors..
The textbooks which guided me through my 1967 engineering degree were largely published by Wiley.
This article rings a very strident gong to warn of some hijacking of Wiley’s Board by barbarians who have given up advancing science in favor of making more money by mindlessly following ‘consensus politics’ whose mob rule decrees, without evidence nor backup, that global warming is not only manmade but is an emergency worthy of political diktats to abolish our fossil fuels, without any demonstration of better energy sources.
Barbarians is the perfect word for them.
“…starts with a desired outcome and works backward…”
This criticism is a bit rich, considering that that august body the IPCC, the font of all knowledge about climates, makes no secret of the fact that it is constructed as a POLITICAL organisation, whose base charter is to report on the possible effects of climate change caused exclusively by emissions from manmade activities.
Their process for production of the Summary For Policymakers even requires that the findings of the scientific panels be edited to support the determinations agreed by the political congress in formulating the SFP.
Talk about an ass-backwards approach!
Yes, it is a glaring indication of intend which alarmists then use as an argument against anybody who questions the consensus narrative.
It is indeed rather rich that side A is using a strategy that side B is then accused of.
It doesnt…compute but hey, it seems pretty standard as far as i can see..
May & Crok in AJES
:
“The Little Ice Age, a phrase rarely used in AR6, extends from about 1300 to 1850. It was a very cold and miserable time for humanity… Arguably today’s climate is better than then, not worse.”
Really?
Why do May & Crok shun the phrase ” The Age Of Exploration ” entirely?
Probably for the same reason that they also failed to mention The Infield Fly Rule?
Perhaps for easier understanding by wider mainstream audiences, rather than academic group-thinkers?
WTF?
The Age of Discovery/Exploration may have been prompted by the Little Ice Age.
Crop failures, famines, and economic hardship in Europe led explorers to seek new trade routes and resources. Trade routes were disrupted by the Little Ice Age, forcing European powers to the sea as a means of accessing new markets and resources.
Love these kind of articles. No wonder the warmunists get big mad and arm wave about it, fools that they are.
All of the aforementioned accept the hypothesis of anthropogenic CO2 being a source of global warming.
They have their own differing opinions as to the costs and benefits, and the appropriate measures to be taken.
Lomborg and, to a lesser extent, Tol are in the naughty corner, but I don’t think Nordhaus is in there with them.
I view Nordhaus, Tol, and Lomborg (as well as many others) as realists. They acknowledge that humans could have caused some of recent warming, but they don’t know how much and neither do I. They also acknowledge that the warming might cause some problems down the road, but they don’t really know what problems or how bad they might be. They also say we have time and can wait until we know more. I agree with them on that. There is no urgency, no need to jump off the cliff.
Unfortunately, the unthinking “true believers” throw all of us into the same camp and would like to gas us all. There is a lot of diversity among the deniers, much less in the “true believers.”
Possibly pragmatic rather than realists.
They take inputs from other fields, and use these in their own area of expertise.
Interestingly, Nordhaus appears more concerned about global warming in his talks I have seen posted on youtube than his DICE analysis suggests.
I am ok with the ‘hypothesis’ idea. Not so much with the theory. It assumes…a lot.
Very nice Andy. I think this is a bigger deal than most probably do. This shows in their own words what many of us have been saying for years. The other side has no proper science to support their claims. All they have is models that are so far out of whack it is embarrassing, pictures of weather and a lying press, academia and government. None of that is science or responsible investigation. We need to show the average guy that this sorry response is the best they have which is nothing.
You realize that when dinner on the table is at risk, the ‘agencies’ are all alike.
The consensus is speculation since scientists never registered and voted on it. The idea is not science since science is not a democracy. The theories of science are not validated via a democratic process or by some other popularity contest. The laws of science are not some form of legislation. In general the critisims are mostly political in nature and have no scientific value.
I wonder if Wiley, Gwartney, and Lough go to the barber shop and get bled when they get sick.
That was the “consensus” cure for most illnesses for centuries.
I always thought that economics and especially projections should stay out of any discussion about the climate. It is its weakest link as it is build on assumptions with a high degree of uncertainty.
But i do understand why somebody from the alarmist side would bring it up as quite a few alarmists are motivated by anti capitalistic tendencies in which modern society is bad and a socialist, green one should replace it, one without growth and with ‘stability’. The push against hydrocarbons (and nuclear) clearly is political for a number of alarmists who use the alarm as a lever. Why a science pub would use it against a paper that actually does not really discuss it is a red flag.
It’s better to leave that aspect out altogether..
A routine Bing/Windows search of “ownership of Wiley Publishing” provides:
Shareholders: Vanguard 15%; BlackRock 14%; SSgA Funds Management 7% …
Number of Journals: 1,600 + in 2023
Articles published in Journals: 500,000 + in 2023
Revenue, 2023: 1.89 billion $US:
Market Capitalisation: 3.6 billion $US
Core Values:
Integrity. Upholding the highest standards in publishing and author relations.
Collaboration: Working together with authors, educators and institutions to foster a knowledge-sharing environment.
Innovation: Continually adapting to the evolving needs of learners and researchers through technological advancements.
Diversity: Embracing a culture that values diverse perspectives and backgrounds.
Commitment to Sustainability: (includes)
Reducing Carbon Footprint; Ethical Sourcing; Community Engagement.
……………………
This is a very large corporation. It is interesting that Wiley intervened. “Now we find out that Wiley (the publishing and printing company that AJES contracts with) objected to the paper and “forced” the AJES board to intervene after May & Crok was already published online.”
The Wiley intervention needs to be examined in terms of the Wiley principles of Core Values and Commitment summarised here.
How is quality control of peer review managed for 1,600 Journals and 500,000 papers a year? Geoff S
John Wiley & Sons, Inc. (WLY): history, ownership, mission, how it works & makes money – dcf-fm
Probably just some AGW-activist clerk read it and didn’t like it. !
sherro01,
Check out the temperature graphic for Adelaide from John Daly’s website. Note the trend is cooling from 1857 to 1999. In 1900 the concentration of CO2 was ca. 300 ppmv and by 1999, it was ca. 390 ppmv, but there was no corresponding increase air temperature. This is another example of empirical temperature data that falsifies the claim by IPCC that CO2 (the “control knob”) causes global warming.
We know from John Daly’s many temperature graphics that there was no global warming up to ca 2002.
Could you go to the BoM, get temperature data for 2000 to 2023 and post the results in the next Open Thread? My idea is to try to use up-to-date empirical temperature to show CO2 does not cause global warming. We need a simple graphic of the temperature data to convince the politicians that CO2 does not cause global warming.
Here is another project for you to undertake: analysis of temperature data from
lighthouses. Temperature data from these might yield data on ocean temperature oscillations and cycles and any global warming.
“Note the trend is cooling from 1857 to 1999.”
Actually warming from 1957 to ~ 2017 (60 years)
(graph bottom left)
And note: all of the graphs show warming:
So how come….
“We know from John Daly’s many temperature graphics that there was no global warming up to ca 2002.”
It wouldn’t be that John Daly was wrong would it?
You, presumably being a sceptic, would have gone to the source of his data.
Or did you just trust it because it fits what you want to believe?
And Banton shows BoM maladjusted temperatures, without having a clue he is doing so.. SO IGNORANT.
Daly was correct, he used actual measured temperatures, not BoM fabrications..
Original data from Adelaide shown below
Melbourne regional office is probably one of the very worst urban sites in the world,
Measuring temperature at any ever-expanding airport is nothing to do with “climate”
Thank you o nice person:
All those squiggly lines show warming since the late 50’s.
Banton yet again shows he is a complete idiot.
At least he is admitting that the 1920-1940 was significantly warmer than now.
Airports warm when rapid expansion and increased air traffic happens… ie since about the 1950s
Well who knew !!
Still no evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2
“At least he is admitting that the 1920-1940 was significantly warmer than now.”
Err, no.
roflmao
so disingenuous and LYING
switches to maladjusted BoM data.
Makes himself look like a total moron… again !!.
BoM loves to mal-adjust even their totally unfit for purpose surface data, and then ignore the pre-1910 data.
Australia is a lot cooler at the hot end than it was in the 1880s.
A downward trend all the way
I thank you for your support.
However it is misplaced.
Sydney Airport, Adelaide Airport, Perth Airport…
No possible connection between the warming trend and the increase in air traffic?
Correct there isn’t.
Now you are just being a moron.. still !!
How do you know?
Harold the Organic Chemist Says:
John Daly obtained temperature data for his many graphics from the GISS and CRU databases and used MS Works for preparing them.
At the MLO in Hawaii, the concentration of CO2 in dry air is 422 ppmv.
One cubic meter of this air contains a mere 0.829 g of CO2 and has amass of 1.29 kg at STP. There is too little CO2 to heat up such a large mass of air by only a very small amount if at all.
In air with a temperature of 70 deg. F and and with 70% RH, the concentration of H2O is 14,780 ppmv. One cubic meter of this air has
11.9 g of H2O and 0.78 g of CO2, and has a mass of 1.20 kg.
To the first approximation and all things being equal, the proportion of the
greenhouse (GHE) due to H2O is given by:
GHE = moles H2O/moles H20+moles CO2=0.66/0.66+0.018=0.97 or 97%
The above empirical data and calculations falsifies the claim by the IPCC that CO2 (the control knob) causes global warming. The claim by the IPCC that CO2 cause global warming is a lie. The purpose of this lie is to provide the UN the justification of the distribution of the donner funds from the rich countries, via the UNFCCC and the UN COP, to the poor countries to help them cope with global warming and climate change. At the recent COP29 conference, the poor countries came clamoring not for billions but trillions of funds. They left the conference with no pledges of funds from the rich countries.
When Donald Trump becomes president, he will put an end to green deal fraud, and terminate “donations” to these UN organizations.
BTW: John Daly used temperature data from weather station sites that were not subjected to the heat island effects or other improper sites such airports or marine ports.
I live in Burnaby, BC where the carbon tax is $80 per tonne of CO2 equivalent, and I am on a crusade to put end to all this CO2 global warming nonsense.
Further up you said ….
Note the trend is cooling from 1857 to 1999.”
Actually it’s not.
If you rule the data from 1960 through to the end then there is slight warming trend discernible. (And it only goes to 2000 not 2017 as my posted graphs do)
Even a blind monkey can see the cooling trend in the total data.
Anything else is just petty disingenuous cherry-picking(ie LYING) ignorance.
But that is exactly what we expect from you.
No, it is you to get a pair of glasses.
Or at least stop looking through an ideologically bent pair.
From 1960 (OK I’ll give you 1965) on, there is an obvious slight warming trend of a least squares regression through the data.
It just is – print it out and place a clear plexiglass ruler through the points.
Of course you won’t.
And that is the graph posted by Harold Pierce.
It is seen better on my posted graph.
Next you will say, nay swear blind, that the colour of snow is purple.
You reliance on linear regression to inform your predictions is misplaced.
From: https://stats.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Introductory_Statistics/Introductory_Statistics_(Lane)/14%3A_Regression/14.01%3A_Introduction_to_Linear_Regression
Another term for “criterion” is “response variable”.
A linear regression is used to “predict” a Y value from an X value. Time is not a predictor for the value of temperature. One can fool themselves by using large averages of the response variable and predictor variable into believing that time vs temperature is being predicted. But it isn’t.
As you drill down into the averages, one finds CO2 and temperature are not related sufficiently to allow accurate predictions.
What one begins to realize is that time versus temperature is a time series and requires time series analysis rather than trying to prove that one can predict a temperature from a CO2 concentration.
Time is often used as a proxy for some underlying phenomenon where it can take some while to determine the value of the underlying phenomenon. Examples might be GDP, the various money supplies, or population.
There are a number of caveats, but the potted summary is that it only applies during the period in which the relationship holds. There is also the Zeroth Law – thou shalt not extrapolate.
ln(CO2) vs time has a point of inflection around 1960.
1850 – 1949 has a slope of 0.00098
1950 – 2020 has a slope of 0.0043.
Apologies for splitting at 1950, but that was data from another analysis.
Effectively, there are 2 ln(CO2) slopes: 1850 – 1964 and 1965 – 2020 (or 2024 with updated data)
The temperature vs ln(CO2) fit is quite good post-1950. Pre-1950, not so much.
Splitting into time series for the 2 different ln(CO2) relationships is valid, but treating 1850 – 2020 as a single proxy for ln(CO2) violates the rules of time series.
Time is not a proxy for a predictor variable. A larger or smaller time period may be used to adequately assess the value of a predictor variable, but time is not the predictor.
That is why pauses in warming and even cooling are so important. Those are contraindications of a linear relationship between CO2 and temperature.
Oh, yes, it is!
I’m not sure what you mean here.
That’s why it’s used as a proxy for the predictor where you have good reason to believe that the rate of change of the predictor has a strong time correlation.
It’s also the reason for the “do not extrapolate” rule. A major assumption of time series analysis is that there is no major change to the underlying predictor variable(s).
Another ruler monkey.
The Adelaide site has been all over the shop – from the Parklands to Kent Town, it is now back at the Parklands (ACORN-SAT Station Catalogue). As the site has moved and changed there is no reason to believe data are homogeneous.
Harold P,
I have done the types of time series analyses on a vast array of official Australian temperature and CO2 data, starting 30 years ago. Sadly, I was not to meet John Daly. Several of my colleagues have done more study than i have, like Dr Bill Johnston on his bomwatch blog and Chris Gillham on his waclimate link and Ken Stewart on Kenskingdom and Dr Jennifer Marohasy on her blog – and many more.
It is easy to show graphs that invite correlations of temperature change with atmospheric CO2 change. It is another matter to get “the other side” to read these, let alone understand them or assist in their formal publication. My colleagues do not have favoured access to peer reviewers, or to most university and CSIRO research houses. So long as these continue to favour the global warming/climate change story, we can make little progress to sway policy makers, teachers or the general public. Geoff S
Every time I see a graph with time as the predictor and CO2 as the response, I cringe. I have done enough analyses of my own to recognize that linear regressions using different scales for temperature and CO2 are nothing more than curve fitting and will never show anything reliable as to cause and effect. People will go to their graves touting the correlation without ever proving one way or the other what is the cause and what is the effect.
At some point, climate science will be forced to move on from dooming based on correlation and start to fit all the pieces of the climate puzzle into a cohesive picture. The first picture should paint what the best “global temperature” should be for humans and other flora and fauna. I keep reading papers and blogs and have yet to find anything scientific that shows what that temperature should be. Everything has a simple assumption that the best temperature was during the Little Ice Age, i.e., before industrialization. I sincerely hope that is not the case. Growing populations, increasing food production, more academics and expanding research due to energy production would tend to say that we may be closer to an optimum temperature.
As long as models are written to make CO2 the fundamental process of heat in the atmosphere, we will not be able to use them to guide us to the optimum temperature. If you examine their output, they become linear projections of ever increasing temperature until the earth burns up. Has anyone seen a model that indicates a leveling off of temperature sometime in the future? I sure haven’t. That is a dead giveaway, something isn’t correct.
That’s where the thermoneutral (or thermal neutral if you prefer) zone comes into play. “Thermoneutral zone is the range of ambient temperatures where the body can maintain its core temperature solely through regulating dry heat loss by skin blood flow; 28-32 °C for a nude human and 14.8 °C – 24.5 °C for lightly clothed.”
“Global temperature” is a bit of a challenge because of latitudinal, seasonal and diurnal variations, not to mention direct sun / shade, moisture content and wind chill factors.
Very good points. It is a giant company that publishes 1,600 journals! Yet they singled out one paper, in a low-impact journal, and had a board meeting to discuss our paper. Then they forced the AJES board to meet. Seems like overkill when no one has found anything wrong with the paper or the references. Clearly an overt act of attempted censorship. Fortunately, they failed. All they are doing is hurting themselves and their reputation.
The last two bullet points Geoff posted explain it all.
Andy,
My uninformed guess is that there was opposition from a board member of Wiley who was middle aged and female and an economist. If that is correct, it adds to a global pattern. Geoff S
You forgot the purple hair and face piercings.
Dear Andy,
As a label, climate denial is different to climate contested or climate unproved. Mont importantly it is based on belief and mind-manipulation, not data. For denial vs reality one is invited into one camp or the other based almost exclusively on rhetoric, emotion and repetitive messaging about The Science, which is where with AR1 the whole thing started from.
This morning (Au-time) on Fox News US, I watched Kamala Harris wooing the faithful (https://www.foxnews.com/media/democratic-lawmaker-hits-kamala-harris-dems-using-weird-unfamiliar-language-after-election-loss).
Her cleverly constructed script totally ignored that she and her joyous cohort had been comprehensively rejected in favour of Trump. Harris did not overtly lie but she did not tell the truth, or admit to the hollowness of her billion-dollar, star studded, failed campaign. While she stroked their feathers, she had no verifiable message for her apparently hard-working, star-struck admirers. Like The Science she was, and is, all message, no substance.
After several decades of watching and participating in the climate space, I have found no fellow denialists who have attacked the question: is warming detectable in surface temperature datasets, given everything else. While many experts from vastly different fields contribute to ongoing discussions, none come to mind who have gotten down in the dirt of analysing and verifying the veracity of specific weather station temperature datasets.
Doubts are in the data and for all to see and this is where surface temperature datasets that contribute to global averages are most acutely vulnerable. It is the point in the climate debate where under the guise of homogenisation they (in my case Australia’s Bureau of Meteorology (BoM)) change the trajectory of historic data to agree with The Science.
With so much data available in the public domain, I cannot understand why the “The Science” verses observed data debate has gone-on for so-long. While I have outlined protocols and reported on subsets for specific sites at http://www.bomwatch.com.au, I found no evidence that maximum temperatures across Australia are influenced by carbon dioxide or any other factor.
Furthermore, it is clear from multiple studies that data are deliberately manipulated by scientists at the BoM to create a warming trend that doses not exist.
Yours sincerely,
Dr Bill Johnston
http://www.bomwatch.com.au
Exactly.
The probity and provenance of temperatures measurements and records are criminally, fraudulently compromised.
Forensic auditors would have a field day investigating “Global Average Temperature” constructs.
Small correction. Consistent with the First Law of Thermodynamics, maximum temperature depends on rainfall such that the drier it is the warmer it gets.
This simple relationship provides a physical basis for verifying the soundness of a Tmax dataset, and also for ‘removing’ the rainfall effect so that underlying changes to data can be explored objectively using statistical tools. Suspected changes that are not due to rainfall can also be verified using, for example, available metadata, archived material including historical aerial photographs, maps and plans etc. and for recent changes, Google earth Pro.
For a weather station that is ‘any good’ I expect as a minimum, more than 50% of variation in average annual Tmax is explained by annual rainfall. If R^2(adjusted) is less than 50%, or the relationship with rainfall is not significant (at p=0.05), something is wrong. (Remember it is possible to have a significant relationship that explains hardly any variation in the dependent variable.)
For an overall Tmax ~ rainfall relationship, R^2(adjusted) which may be less than 50%, should improve if site changes are correctly identified and incorporated as factors in the analysis. The factorised relationship then becomes: Tmax ~ Site(factor) + rainfall. However, such an analysis is not easily accomplished using Excel – I use R and I apply the same protocol for analysing all datasets. I have posted numerous examples of this approach (see for instance https://www.bomwatch.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Are-AWS-any-good_Part1_FINAL-22August_prt.pdf, and https://www.bomwatch.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Parafield-back-story-with-line-Nos.pdf).
One dataset that I could not resolve is Cape Leeuwin. Although considered to be one of the more important long-term weather stations in WA, the Stevenson screen is located above a west-facing cliff in an updraft zone. The site experiences more than 200 wet days/year – more or less constant light, foggy rain and sea-spray directly off the ocean below. Instruments are not maintained in a dry, salt-free condition so basically the automatic weather station is unable to sense the temperature of the air without interference. On the day I visited several years ago, I found the tipping bucket raingauge was vibrating from the near gale-force wind rising up the cliff above the heaving Southern Ocean. There is also no backup manual gauge. See: https://www.bomwatch.com.au/data-quality/cape-leeuwin-western-australia/).
Metadata provided by the BoM is rarely accurate and there is evidence that faulty metadata is used in a way that conflates changes in data caused by site changes, as though they are due to the climate.
Tricks include spraying-out the local vegetation (verified using Google earth Pro), stripping topsoil from the vicinity of where observations are made (ditto), failing to note when 230-litre Stevenson screens have been replaced by more sensitive 60-litre ones, allowing screens to degrade, replacing wooden screens with 60-litre plastic ones, installing wind-profiler arrays in close proximity and not allowing for their effect on observations, and making data up.
All of these deliberately dishonest practices can be checked and verified using appropriate statistical tests, including post-hoc tests and graphics.
To any reasonable scientist, the extent to which the BoM has deliberately taken steps to ‘create’ extremes and record-hot years is simply astounding. The fact that for the last three decades they have gotten away with it, is even worse.
Cheers,
Dr Bill Johnston
http://www.bomwatch.com.au
Thanks Dr. Johnston,
I don’t understand this either. When confronted with an idea that sounds odd (“CO2 controls climate,” as an example) my first instinct is to look at the data. But I guess there are many like that unfortunately.
The premise of our article was: the consensus is telling us the opposite of what the data says. You obviously see the same thing. Good on you.
Wiley ( Coyote ) OWNS AJES. That looks a lot like :
More projection !
They are sadly, totally correct. This would “normally” have been rejected. This has been true since the gatekeeping which was revealed Climate emails has been in play.
It would not have been rejected on scientific grounds but on the basis of the same pseudo-scientific, political activism the Wiley ( Coyote ) publishing and the two board members are displaying here .
Gwartney & Lough just described every hockey stick paper since MBH98.
I listened to a portion of Dr. Nordhaus presentation and question his statement that CO2 is bad for causations. It’s my understanding that studies making that chicken actually used hydrochloric acid to make the test water acidic. Most studies I’ve read when using carbonic acid, the effects were very positive.
“will follow the mainstream news media and the dodo bird into oblivian”
sp. oblivion