If Green Energy is the Future, Bring a Fire Extinguisher

By Steve Goreham

A version of this article was recently published in The Wall Street Journal.

Alternative energy is exploding─literally. Lithium battery fires are breaking out on highways and in factories, home garages, and storage rooms. The rise in battery fires is amplified by government efforts to force adoption of electric vehicles and grid-scale batteries for electric power.

Lithium batteries have high energy density, making them valuable for phones and portable appliances. But when they catch fire, these batteries burn with high heat and can even explode. That’s why airlines prohibit lithium batteries in checked baggage.

On June 24, a battery factory in South Korea caught fire, triggering explosions and killing 22 workers. The fire broke out in Hwaseong at the Aricell plant, a maker of small lithium batteries for sensors and communications devices. Experts estimate that most workers were killed by toxic gases emitted by the burning batteries.

Scotland has suffered two major fires in battery recycling centers this year. On April 8, a large fire broke out at Fenix Battery Recycling in Kilwinning, North Ayrshire. More than 40 firefighters and personnel from six different agencies responded to the blaze, which burned for several days. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service urged nearby residents to remain indoors with windows closed as long as two days after the fire started.

On June 23, a large fire broke out at the battery recycling treatment facility of WEEE Solutions in Glasgow. Eyewitnesses reported explosions, noises like gunshots, “steel flying everywhere,” and a huge plume of black smoke. Ten fire trucks were needed, and the blaze lasted four days.

E-bike battery fires are now the leading cause of fires in New York City, with 216 fires last year. E-bike fires have become a serious problem in Australia, Canada, and other nations as well. Low-quality bike batteries self-ignite in first-floor storerooms, destroying the buildings above. Even high-quality batteries are prone to self-ignition after damage or when connected to a faulty charging system.

Lithium batteries have been used for the last 30 years in phones and small appliances. But the introduction of electric cars (EVs) after the year 2000 provided a massive increase in battery size. Lithium batteries for cars and trucks are 10,000 times as large as phone batteries.

On August 19, a Tesla semi-truck crashed into trees along Interstate-80 in California. The crash ignited the truck’s large lithium battery. Firefighters tried to extinguish the fire with thousands of gallons of water but were forced to let the fire burn itself out. The interstate was shut down for 15 hours. The California Advanced Clean Fleets Regulation passed last year requires all new heavy trucks to be zero emissions vehicles, which practically means electric trucks with batteries prone to fire.

Automakers have been wrestling with lithium battery fires for more than a decade. Alfa Romeo, BMW, Ford, General Motors, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, Porche, Tesla, and other manufacturers have recalled millions of EVs because of battery fire problems. Batteries can self-ignite while the vehicle is in motion, when connected to a charger, or even when sitting idly in a parking lot. EVs prone to self-ignition have been prohibited from parking at West Coast parking lots.

In August, a Mercedes-Benz EQE that had been manufactured in China burst into flames in a parking garage in Inchon, Korea. The EV had been parked in the garage for several days and was not charging at the time. The resulting inferno destroyed or damaged 140 vehicles.

On August 24, a fire broke out in the outside parking lot of electric truck manufacturer Rivian in Normal, Illinois. More than 50 trucks were destroyed. The same plant also reportedly suffered three other battery fires in the last year and three more fires in 2021-2022.

How are governments responding to the rash of lithium battery fires? They are doubling down, promoting the use of even larger, grid-scale lithium batteries as part of efforts to transition from coal, oil, and natural gas to wind and solar energy.

Grid-scale batteries are viewed as the solution to wind and solar intermittency, meant to store excess electricity when wind and solar output is high, and then release electricity when wind and solar output is low. But the number of grid battery fires is growing, and grid batteries are hundreds of times larger than EV batteries.

On July 26, a grid battery carried on a truck ignited after a crash on Interstate 15 near Baker, California. The battery was 20 feet long and weighed 75,000 pounds. I-15 was shut down for 44 hours as firefighters worked to put out the blaze. Hundreds of motorists were stranded in the desert in 100-degree heat. Ambulances, medical teams, and fuel and water were dispatched to the site to help stranded motorists.

On May 15, the Gateway Energy Storage facility using lithium-ion batteries caught fire near San Diego, California. Firefighters managed to get the blaze under control in 24 hours, but it then re-ignited twice more and burned for a total of 11 days. Evacuation orders to residents were issued and cancelled periodically, depending on the fire status. The Gateway facility was the largest of its kind when constructed in 2020.

Vice President Kamala Harris recently announced $1 billion in grants for electric school buses. If a diesel bus engine catches fire, the driver can usually put it out with a fire extinguisher. But this is not possible with electric buses, which explode when they catch fire. Let’s hope we’re not headed for fire explosions in electric buses full of children.

The world faces an epidemic of lithium battery fires. If government leaders continue to push lithium batteries and the green energy transition, battery fires will soon be coming to a location near you.

Steve Goreham is a speaker on energy, the environment, and public policy and author of the bestselling book Green Breakdown: The Coming Renewable Energy Failure.

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Denis
October 25, 2024 2:05 pm

Biden/Harris are pushing electric school busses. How long (days, months, a few years?) will it be before one of these busses loaded with kids catches fire and kills some. God forbid, but sadly it seems he/she does not forbid us from doing stupid things.

Scissor
Reply to  Denis
October 25, 2024 2:39 pm

I wonder why we don’t have hydrogen/EV hybrids.

Mr.
Reply to  Scissor
October 25, 2024 5:32 pm

because we have perfectly functional ice engines and safely handleable fuels to run them on?

Bryan A
Reply to  Mr.
October 25, 2024 6:45 pm

I think Scissor was being sarcastic

Mr.
Reply to  Bryan A
October 25, 2024 8:08 pm

I got that. But still . . .

Reply to  Scissor
October 25, 2024 10:25 pm

I wonder how many China EV have pager function.

Bryan A
Reply to  Big Al
October 25, 2024 10:36 pm

Probably all of them since they’re about that size

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Denis
October 25, 2024 11:15 pm

“How long (days, months, a few years?) will it be before one of these busses loaded with kids catches fire and kills some. God forbid, but sadly it seems he/she does not forbid us from doing stupid things.”

Sadly I suspect that more kids will be killed in mass shootings in the US than will die from
exploding school buses. And if thoughts and prayers are sufficient to deal with gun deaths they should be more than capable of dealing with the odd elecric battery catching fire.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 1:25 am

You are right, and you are introducing a very important test for the reasonableness of child protection legislation and regulation. I have thought this for some time but never put it quite as as clearly as you have.

The test is simple. You add up the number of child deaths from shooting in the US, and then reject or repeal any current or proposed regulation which will save fewer lives.

For example, child proof caps on drugs and cleaning products. We need to ask how many lives they save, and if its less than the gun deaths, repeal them all.

Its amazing, when you use the Gun Deaths Test, how much protective legislation should just go. Adults too of course. We need to count the total number of gun deaths for adults, and any proposals which will save fewer lives annually than that total, away with them!

I guess there will be a few deniers who ask why we should make the public health disaster of gun deaths the test. I mean, they may say, why set such a low threshold? Think about automobile deaths, why not take that as the standard? We could get rid of a lot more health and safety regulation if we just said no regulation considered unless it saves more deaths than the annual total from traffic deaths. Maybe the UK NHS could adopt it as a standard? No treatment unless they will save more person years than are lost by traffic accidents. The waiting lists will vanish overnight.

Thank you for your illuminating insight in any event, we can clear up these details later, and look forward to more such insights from where this one came.

Dave Yaussy
Reply to  michel
October 26, 2024 4:42 am

Great response

Robert Cutler
Reply to  michel
October 26, 2024 8:28 am

Michel, For the purpose of your test, how would you define a child?

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Robert Cutler
October 28, 2024 5:40 am

How do you define a woman?

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  michel
October 26, 2024 8:47 am

Crazy anti-gun ideas have nothing to do with weather/climate/science.

Reply to  michel
October 28, 2024 4:33 am

I agree. We need to evaluate a relevant alternative.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

Reply to  bigoilbob
October 28, 2024 11:52 pm

Does that study exclude ICE vehicles destroyed by arson?

Reply to  Graemethecat
October 29, 2024 4:16 am

Here’s the AI results.

“According to the National Fire Incident Reporting System (NFIRS), about 10% of vehicle fires are intentionally set.”

Assume they are all ICE fires. That would reduce the non arson ICE/electric fire rate from ~60, to ~60*(100-10)%/100%, or ~54.

Got me there….

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 3:35 am

Child gun deaths is a terrible thing- but raising that issue as some kind of defense of potential exploding/burning school busses is crazy.

Derg
Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 3:55 am

Exactly, democrats are dangerous.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 4:41 am

Izzy has just drawn an analogy between electric buses and school shooters.

Well done dopey !!

Take both feet out of your gob now, Izzy. !

Bryan A
Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 8:17 am

About 515 people have been killed in School Shootings, 382 under 18, since Columbine. (20 years ago)

Roughly 121 million unintended pregnancies occurred each year between 2015 and 2019.

Of these unintended pregnancies, 61% ended in abortion. This translates to 73 million abortions per year.

In the US alone there are 1,026,700 abortions in 2023 that’s 2,800 daily.

While tragic, School Shootings have claimed 515 lives over 20 years; however, abortion takes over 2,800 potential lives daily just in the US.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 8:27 am

It’s funny how “gun” deaths were so rare when kids were taught to respect guns and use them properly, and even brought them to school to go out shooting after class.
Let’s face it, they are not gun deaths. They are a symptom of progressive policies. Let’s call them what they are—the desperation of people engineered to be empty and angry.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Mark Whitney
October 26, 2024 8:48 am

And when we didn’t diagnose every school boy as ADHD and drug him up.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 3:55 pm

Comparing levels of tragic events that require an abundance of caution to control is a fools errand.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  doonman
October 28, 2024 5:42 am

Or a socialist.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  Denis
October 26, 2024 9:42 pm

Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) powered buses were widely used in California a number of years ago, as a means of reducing both really noxious emissions (from diesel), and peripherally as a first step in “fighting global warming.” The buses had rooftop sausage tanks made of carbon fiber-reinforced plastic overwrapped metal liners, and were designed to hold CNG at up to 6,000 psi. Well, one day somewhere around 2013 or 2014, I was invited to participate in a government/industry working group to investigate a distressing phenomenon. It seems that CNG tanks on bus roofs occasionally exploded, for no apparent reason. Now a CNG tank large enough to power a bus is a real bomb, and it instantly obliterates the vehicle, even if there is no subsequent fire. The explosions had apparently all occurred in parked vehicles, and I don’t recall if casualties were even discussed in that initial invitational meeting. The one and only thing the tanks had in common were that they were manufactured in China. I was taken aback, because I knew (and had dealt with) several American companies that manufactured such tanks. Apparently, China was able to penetrate the CNG bus market based on price. The working group limped along for a while, meeting via teleconference, and finally petered out due to lack of interest. I have never heard of any catastrophes plus loss of life associated with CNG buses in the United States. Has anyone heard of them anywhere?

Edward Katz
October 25, 2024 2:09 pm

If this trend continues, it will reach a point where the majority of lithium batteries beyond a certain size will be prohibited entirely. The question is how long are these to be permitted and how much preventive action will governments take to protect the public.

Mr.
Reply to  Edward Katz
October 25, 2024 5:36 pm

Our condo won’t allow I-ion batteries over laptop size anywhere on the property.
We’re not unnecessary risk takers with residents’ lives and assets.

Reply to  Edward Katz
October 25, 2024 5:53 pm

It is not only the size of individual batteries that matter. It is the risk of one battery melt-down setting off other battery metl-downs in a cascading series.

Every EV charging bay should be fire/explosion isolated from others like the common practice of individual transformer bays:
comment image

Transformers are designed to vent upward to reduce the risk of an exploding tank sending the vessel skyward. EV battery melt-down inevitably vent downward and sideways so they are well designed to spread fires.

Bob
October 25, 2024 2:35 pm

Very important information.

mleskovarsocalrrcom
October 25, 2024 2:39 pm

There are other battery chemical combinations that aren’t as volatile as LiOn but they don’t have the same energy density. Will we be seeing a movement towards them? With battery range being a hot button I doubt it.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  mleskovarsocalrrcom
October 25, 2024 3:09 pm

I have owned a hybrid SUV since 2007. The NiMH is still fine (a bit of leakage current in the engine start compartment if sits for days easily overcome by the foreseen Ford ‘start’ button override). The reason is the NiMH battery floats between about 45-55% charge, so is never stressed. No range issue ever, cause you can always refill the gas tank. No need for highest energy density.

Plug in EV, and EV, are a problem. They use LiIon for energy density to max range. But bring inherent fire safety problems explained in my new post below.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
October 26, 2024 1:27 am

I have a mild hybrid – with a lithium battery. Never heard of a battery fire in one of these models. But… the battery is located under the driver’s seat!

Its a small battery, but still. Makes one think.

Erik Magnuson
Reply to  mleskovarsocalrrcom
October 25, 2024 9:08 pm

Some clarification, the best thing about Li-ion is specific energy, i.e. w-hrs/lb. Density is w-hrs/volume, which can be an important consideration.

I don’t think specific energy is all that important for a fixed energy storage facility. What is important is cost per w-hr, and the expected lifetime (cycle count). With all the attention to Li-ion production, the cost per w-hr is better than many other battery chemistries.

Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 2:47 pm

Gasoline, LPG etc are pretty flammable too. And even coal. People compain of the persistence of lithium battery fires, but a while ago we had a coal mine fire which couldn’t even begin to be controlled for four weeks, and blanketed the nearby town with smoke and gases over that time.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 3:03 pm

Gasoline, LPG, and even coal do not spontaneously ignite under normal use cases.

Bryan A
Reply to  PariahDog
October 25, 2024 6:05 pm

Coal mines either, but the associated CH4 gas found at depth can light and ignite the coal seam

Reply to  PariahDog
October 28, 2024 6:05 am

“Normal use”. Define. Truth be told, ICE’s light up at a much higher frequency then EVs.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/ *

My bought new ’95, K2500, XCSB, mostly served me well for 23 years. Great puller, great rider. But I was plagued with over a dozen oil leaks for well over half that time. Spent 4 $ figures to whackamole them, and endured some finger wagging relatives with drive way stains. All it would have taken was one stray fire source to poof the oil stained under carriage and burn down the whole rig.

  • One of many backup docs.
Reply to  bigoilbob
October 28, 2024 7:11 am

All it would have taken was one stray fire source to poof the oil stained under carriage and burn down the whole rig.

One, have you ever tried to set motor oil on fire? How about diesel fuel? The “stray source” you mention would have to be an open flame and you would have to park over that flame.

Two, a confounding variable that was not mentioned in the article is the age of the vehicles. I suspect many of the ICE fires involved older vehicles where lack of maintenance is a large factor. We’ll see how many battery fires occur in 15 or 25 years after many charges and miles driven.

Three, a more relevant comparison would be miles driven rather than number of vehicles. Miles driven is a better measure of exposure to fires than just the number of vehicles. Your own experience with your K2500 is illustrative.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
October 28, 2024 7:50 am

I referenced only one of many fire starters that have resulted in the rate of ICE fires being nearly 140 times as common as EV fires. Just off the top of my head:

  • EFI leaks,
  • Loss of coolant
  • Low oil
  • Loss of oil pressure.
  • Cat converter fires.
  • Alternator melt downs
  • Hot brakes (versus minimal braking required on regenerative EV’s)
  • Smoking while fueling.

Yes, incomplete, and Darwin gets involved. But hopefully you won’t go hysterically blind reading thru the list.

Reply to  bigoilbob
October 28, 2024 8:53 am

Careless reading. ICE fires are only 60+ times as common as electric vehicle fires. Not 140- times as common. That changes everything…

Reply to  bigoilbob
October 28, 2024 11:59 pm

Again, how many ICE fires were insurance fraud or arson?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
October 29, 2024 9:03 pm

“Three, a more relevant comparison would be miles driven rather than number of vehicles.”

Uh, ok. Since EV’s are driven more in town, the hours driven/year might be even better. But I’ll bite.

“On average, an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle in the United States is driven 14,100 to 17,500 miles per year.”

“According to recent studies, the average US electric vehicle is driven around 7,000 to 10,000 miles per year”

Let’s go with the lowest EV estimate and the highest ICE estimate.

Since the base estimate for annual ICE/EV fires is ~60, ~60*7000/17500. We’re down to 24 times as dangerous! Keep at it!

Reply to  bigoilbob
October 30, 2024 8:43 am

You just can’t admit this kind of averaging tells you nothing.

The appropriate figure is “total fires/total miles driven”.

ICE vehicles don’t generally spontaneously combust. They must be driven to generate the conditions for combustion, i.e., motor heat and fuel/oil leaks.

EV’s are no different. Driving results in charging/discharging which creates the most conditions for combustion.

Total miles driven is by far the better denominator.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 3:15 pm

NS, true—but not relevant to this post. Gas/diesel vehicles do not spontaneously combust. EVs do—see the recent destruction of a brand new big Fuerhalle in Germany for a fun example. Charging EV ambulance brought the thing down.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
October 25, 2024 6:15 pm

Gas/diesel vehicles do not spontaneously combust. EVs do—

This is inaccurate. BEV batteries melt-down. They are chemical bombs. Combustion is a different process that relies on a source of oxygen usually preferentially extracted from air.

The building regulations in Australia do not allow lithium storage batteries to be placed in a location with fire connection to the occupied zone. But the regulations do not apply to BEVs – YET. We await a predictable catastrophic loss of life either in single or multiple events before the risk of melt-down is properly recognised.

Who would know if China has installed an internet enabled battery short circuit in every BEV. The BEVs from China are subsidised by China – why? Some of the BEV battery melt-downs may be due to faulty software causing trigger faults. Or are the Israelis more dastardly than China.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  RickWill
October 26, 2024 9:04 am

Why is it called melt-down if there are visible flames coming from the battery?

Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
October 26, 2024 10:59 pm

If oxygen is present then any combustible materials become involved as the battery rapidly melts down. But the battery will continue to release energy without any oxygen. Any fire is secondary to the melt-down. The chemical energy is immediately available for rapid release – sometimes explosively.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 3:38 pm

Yet more Whataboutism from our resident Whataboutist

Mr.
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
October 25, 2024 6:09 pm

which is why our Nick’s comments have been dubbed ‘Nick-Picking’.

Reply to  Mr.
October 26, 2024 4:04 pm

But at least, he’s sleeping longer now.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 3:44 pm

OMG, trying to equate a natural bushfire igniting a coal seam…

… to self-combusting EV batteries destroying whole buildings.

DISINGENUOUS as always.

Are you going to blame humans for this too ?

Burning Mountain Nature Reserve | NSW National Parks

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 5:45 pm

Nick, we all know you defer to “authority” on just about everything.

So check the declarations about L-ion batteries use and storage by the last International Conference of Fire Chiefs demanding that legislators limit the uses and storage of L-ion batteries until proven safety measures can be implemented.

Also note that the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) authority in the USA has banned its ~3,000 employees from bringing e-bikes and e-scooters on to the work premises.
This was required because of a number of spontaneous combustion incidents at their premises.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 6:02 pm

we had a coal mine fire which couldn’t even begin to be controlled for four weeks,

The coal fired was fire rather than a chemical melt-down. And it was in the open air not in the basement carpark of your local hospital.

Take a wander through the basement carpark of your local hospital and imagine every BEV being a chemical bomb awaiting melt-down.

Given the poor understanding around battery melt-down, I expect we will soon see a catastrophic building failure due to multiple battery melt-downs in the basement carpark causing heavy loss of life.

Reply to  RickWill
October 26, 2024 4:09 pm

Why is it that an “abundance of caution” is used as the reasoning behind banning items and behaviors that MIGHT cause death and injury in every other category of life except environmentalism.

I miss playing lawn darts.

Bryan A
Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 6:03 pm

For a IC Gas vehicle to burst into flame takes either…
An accident rupturing the fuel tank and subsequent spark to ignite the fumes.
OR
A short in the electrical (battery) system leading to an engine fire that progresses into a fuel line fire followed by a rare catastrophic event.

Similar for Diesel but diesel ignites with heated fuel…cold diesel can extinguish fires.

Both can be extinguished easily within minutes.

For an EV to burst into flame takes…
Minor damage to the undercarriage and causing unseen damage to a battery cell…running over road debris.
Plugged in recharging.
Sitting in your garage Not charging.
Driving down the road incident free.
Sitting in a field parked.
Being transported on Cargo Ships.
Being transported on Semi Trailers.
Being transported by Rail.
Probably even looking at that cross eyed.

And they take hours to days to extinguish with tens of thousands of gallons of water and can subsequently reignite days later.

Simon
Reply to  Bryan A
October 25, 2024 6:36 pm

But ICE cars are many more times likely to catch fire than an EV. And EV’s tend to be slower to ignite, giving the occupants time to get out. So if safety is the issue I’m afraid the ICE car loses.
But don’t believe me…..This is what top gear (hardly a green site) and others have to say…

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/mythbusting-evs/mythbusting-world-evs-are-electric-cars-susceptible-catching-fire

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/350392741/busting-ev-myths-do-they-really-catch-fire-often

https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires/

Bottom line….Combustion-Powered Vehicles Are 29 Times More Likely To Catch Fire than EV’s

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 6:56 pm

ICV cars are far more prevalent than EVs on the road too. You are far more likely to have an accident in an ICV simply because more than 87% of the cars on the road are ICV. However ICVs DON’T unpredictably spontaneously burst into flame like EVs do.
While ICVs can ignite and leave occupants little time to escape, generally when the accident causing ignition in the ICV would be catastrophic enough to cause serious injury to and prevent the occupants from quickly exiting the vehicle.
EVs on the other hand can experience electrical failure during self immolation leaving uninjured occupants unable unlock and exit locked doors AND/OR unable to lower windows to use that avenue of escape. They burn locked into their stupidity.

Simon
Reply to  Bryan A
October 25, 2024 8:50 pm

ICV cars are far more prevalent than EVs on the road too. “
Ummm…. if you read the articles you would see they allowed for that simple concept. It is just a simple fact that ICE cars burn (allowing for the numbers) way more than EV’s.

“EVs on the other hand can experience electrical failure during self immolation leaving uninjured occupants unable unlock and exit locked doors AND/OR unable to lower windows to use that avenue of escape. They burn locked into their stupidity.”

This is just plain nonsense. Of course people can be trapped inside a vehicle (EV or ICE), but EV’s can have a manual door release, mine certainly does.

And as for the last sentence. What a nasty vile comment. You must be fun to be around.

Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 10:21 pm

And as for the last sentence…. blah blah..

Do you want some whine with that whinge !!

A factual comment it was.. your stupidity is locked into your whole existence.

Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 10:28 pm

Poor little simpleton.

I thought you would be used to being ROASTED by now. !

https://youtu.be/NWvI1daNils

https://youtu.be/9052r5fx_HQ

https://youtu.be/XWq-Mq1Uqpw

Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 7:04 pm

I wonder if the people who have been trapped and horribly burned to death in EV fires give a lick about your analysis.

Bryan A
Reply to  Phil R
October 25, 2024 7:09 pm

Now don’t pick on the analysis, they were obviously written using state of the art modeling run on Climate SuperDuperComputers

Simon
Reply to  Phil R
October 25, 2024 8:53 pm

If you burn you burn whether in an ICE car or an EV…. but given your chances of burning are way lower in an EV…. when it comes to safety, I’ll take the EV thanks.

Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 10:19 pm

Ignorant of the different combustion rates of EV and ICE, and the ability to put them out.

You are a prime candidate for a Darwin award.

Bryan A
Reply to  bnice2000
October 25, 2024 10:47 pm

Candidate?? How about WIKI article Poster Child
The standard by which all subsequent Darwin Award winners are gauged.

Simon
Reply to  bnice2000
October 25, 2024 11:23 pm

The data is the data and it says you are wrong. But you like to argue with reality so I will leave you to it.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 9:20 am

Show us some real data then.

Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
October 28, 2024 7:41 am

bnice provided 3 utube anecdotes. FYI, “real data” is not the plural of anecdote.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 10:40 pm

You can Keep It too
I’ll take the car than can drive me from Sonoma County 610 miles to Las Vegas in 10 hours with a single 5 minute refueling stop/bathroom break/leg stretch. Let me know when EVs can travel 600 miles with 1 recharging stop of 5 minutes

Simon
Reply to  Bryan A
October 25, 2024 11:25 pm

Let me know when EVs can travel 600 miles with 1 recharging stop of 5 minutes”
They area around the corner… but only an idiot or a selfish driver puts others at risk by driving those distances without a significant stop. Which one are you?

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 3:47 am

definition: significant stop- a couple of hours recharging?

Simon
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 6:05 pm

My car recharges in 30 mins. Not sure what planet you live on?

Reply to  Simon
October 27, 2024 3:31 am

My car and pickup gas up in 5 minutes. Also, you’ll need to find a charger that isn’t being used when everyone has one. That will add time.

Reply to  Simon
October 28, 2024 7:36 am

My Bolt EUV takes many hours. But still good for 95% of our miles. You have a diesel as well, right? Use it for your few long trip and/or tow miles.

Here in Yanquiland, almost 60% of households are multi car. For almost all, that best second car choice is EV, hands down,

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 4:34 am

Simpleton can’t even drive 600 miles in a day.

What a PATHETIC little person.

I suppose when you are used to living in a 15 minute city and drive the equivalent of a golf-cart, that is to be expected.

And no, they are not “around the corner”…. you have been a gullible twit, yet again.

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 8:33 am

Yeah well Cold Fusion is also “Just around the corner” but I won’t hold my breath on that either…the biosphere could use the CO2 anyway

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 9:22 am

That is a completely stupid statement. I know plenty of people who drive 500 to 600 miles in a day just stopping 1 time for gas and a quick restroom break. I guess you must live in a small country with no roads.

Simon
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
October 26, 2024 6:06 pm

That is a completely stupid statement. I know plenty of people who drive 500 to 600 miles in a day just stopping 1 time for gas and a quick restroom break. “
You know plenty of foolish selfish people then.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 6:24 pm

plenty of foolish selfish people then.”

A real FOOL is someone that parks their EV in their garage.

Just because you are pathetic and incapable of a shortish drive, doesn’t mean other people are.

Most people I know don’t stop overnight going from Sydney or Newcastle to Melbourne via the Hume Highway unless they want to visit someone part way.

.

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 10:33 pm

Truckers drive as far as they can before their (government mandated) legally required break (down time) even they refuel in 25-30 minutes. Still takes a fair amount of time to pump 100-200 gallons of diesel. Would take far longer to recharge a 3000KWh battery to power an electric Semi (Tractor/Trailer) the same distance and dramatic lower the amount of cargo they can transport and maintain GVW…about 10,000-14,000 pounds less.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Simon
October 28, 2024 7:41 am

I think people who stop 3 times for 30 minutes to charge a battery at a government subsidized charging station are selfish for using my tax dollars and foolish because they waste so much time.

Reply to  Simon
October 29, 2024 12:05 am

Delivery drivers are foolish stupid people according to resident cretin Simon.

Reply to  Bryan A
October 26, 2024 3:46 am

especially in a cold climate

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 9:23 am

It took a friend 2 recharges to get from Chicago to Detroit in 25 F weather.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 3:45 am

do you own and EV? If not, why not?

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 6:24 am

He does, gets it charged for min cost from kiwi hydro, and has his virtue signaling down pat.

Reply to  karlomonte
October 26, 2024 8:30 am

around here in central Wokeachusetts- maybe all across the state- many libraries now have charging stations which don’t charge at all for that “free” green energy

of course the rest of us are paying- and most of the energy isn’t green!

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 10:00 am

Same here.

Simon
Reply to  karlomonte
October 26, 2024 6:08 pm

Thank you KM. that’s the nicest thing you have ever said to me.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 9:23 am

He’s not old enough to drive and his job cutting lawns doesn’t pay well.

Simon
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 6:07 pm

Sure do. Looove eeet…… But I own a diesel too. Hopefully that will be gone soon.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 6:25 pm

Then you will be stuck at home too scared to drive more than a couple of hundred km.

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 10:38 pm

Hopefully that will be gone soon.

That Diesel can “be gone” whenever you decide to stop being a hypocrite. Simply drop it up off at the Junk Yard and walk away.

If that Diesel is a work vehicle that doesn’t belong to you it’s probably time to quit being a hypocrite, quit that job and find another that won’t require driving a diesel.

Reply to  Simon
October 28, 2024 7:31 am

Samo samo on both. But keep the diesel. Use it for long trips, towing.

Derg
Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 8:17 pm

Did you find the pee pee tape yet or are you ready to admit collusion was all made up?

Simon
Reply to  Derg
October 25, 2024 8:55 pm

What a fast learner you are. Never said there was a pee tape. But I see Trump did send Putin covid tests and contact him after his failed presidency which is a violation of the Logan Act. Russian collusion in action. He just doesn’t learn or care.

Mr.
Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 10:24 pm

Simon, I think Trump has learned a few hard lessons from his business adventures and misadventures.

I don’t know if you’ve ever been in charge of a business in highly contested marketplaces Simon, as I and many others here have, and one thing that is essential if you want a competitive edge is –
know your competitors inside-out and all their strengths and foibles.

I reckon Trump observes and practices that old Sun Tzu Art Of War adage –
“keep your friends close. but keep your enemies closer”.

Trump would conceivably try to engage Putin on a personal basis to maybe work out what his personal fears might be.

What say you?

Simon
Reply to  Mr.
October 25, 2024 11:31 pm

I say what you say is fantasy. You only have to look at the Helsinki tape where Trump told the world he believed Putin over his own secret service. That was perhaps the most foolish and embarrassingly inept statement by a US president in modern history.

“I reckon Trump observes and practices that old Sun Tzu Art Of War adage –
“keep your friends close. but keep your enemies closer”.”

So how do you explain that around 40 of the people he hired in his first stink as president (and yes there may well be a second and God help us if there is) now have said they will never work with him again. Including two of his generals who have publicly said he is a danger to the the US and the world. Only this week General Kelly described him as a Fascist.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 3:50 am

Not trusting the secret service is smart.

Simon
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 11:53 am

Sure it is. Especially when you trust the word of a tyrant killer over them……

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 11:57 am

You don’t know what the relationship was/is between Trump and Putler. You think you do because you’re hooked on the MSM cult- and believe everything they say.

Bryan A
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 2:43 pm

Drank the KoolAid
Swallowed the Party Line
Drives the Gilded Golf cart
Suffers TDS
Constantly views the world through a small muscular opening adjacent to the perineum

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Bryan A
October 28, 2024 7:45 am

He’s got optic dungitis.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 4:20 pm

That’s the only way anyone can say anything about any worldwide leaders that they’ve never met or dealt with. You have to believe what the MSM tells you.

Of course, when they also tell you “its worse than we thought” it is admitting that they didn’t know what they were talking about to begin with, or that could not be true.

Simon
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 6:10 pm

I know Trump says they are “best fwends” and I know Putin is a murderous dictator. That’s enough.
https://www.rferl.org/a/enemies-kremlin-deaths-prigozhin-list/32562583.html

Derg
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 4:00 am

Your TDs slip is showing

Simon
Reply to  Derg
October 26, 2024 11:53 am

Good I am proud to be on the right side of this one. Let it show…..

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 4:29 am

You do know Trump was referring to the heads of the secret service.

Who have since been shown to be totally inept. !

Yes he made some mistaken hires, of people who turned out to be useless and clueless leftist scum, like you.

So he fired them.

Like any leftist scum, they are now petty fools loaded with sour grapes.

Simon
Reply to  bnice2000
October 26, 2024 11:55 am

Nope none of them were leftists. All republicans. And anyway if he did hire the wrong people then that’s on him. His mistake… but he never owns his mistakes, we all know that.

Reply to  Simon
October 27, 2024 6:12 am

People who have been removed from work by Elon Musk say the same thing about him – a dictator. It’s funny how people like Trump, Musk, and other folks that have built major businesses all have the same problem with people they have fired.

Some day, if you have the smarts and gumption to start your own business, you will have the same experiences where you need to fire people because they do not meet your expectations of results. I’ll bet those folks don’t describe you as the best employer they ever worked for!

Your criticism of people for whom you have never worked is simply based on rumor and not facts. Kind of like the Greenhouse Effect.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 3:48 am

sent him a Covid test- OMG, a traitor! /s

seems to me more of a Christian thing to do- even for a dictator

Derg
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 3:59 am

Until you find the pee pee tape you are a liar…it’s the basis of the fraud of colluuuusion. You are a known liar. Find that pee pee tape moron.

Simon
Reply to  Derg
October 26, 2024 11:56 am

Never said the pee tape was real so I say you are a silly old fool barking up a tree that doesn’t exist. Move on it’s boring.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 4:35 pm

Hey! I remember the Move On argument after Clinton got caught with Lewinski’s blue dress and cigar in the White House. After he claimed to not have sex with her.

You got no pee pee tape which caused the FISC warrant to issue and now you want to “Move On” too?.

What a clown. Won’t stand by your own arguments.

Simon
Reply to  doonman
October 26, 2024 6:13 pm

I never said there was a pee tape and Clinton did have sex with Monica. I am of the opinion that if someone is guilty they should be held to account irrespective of their politics. Surely you agree with that?

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 4:38 am

What a gullibly moronic load of far-left fakery.

And the typical hatred of anyone they don’t agree with.

Not understanding that Trump is a brilliant diplomat who avoided and stop several wars.

What the simpleton worships, is the vacuous idiotic cackling of the Kamal !

Simon
Reply to  bnice2000
October 26, 2024 11:59 am

Not understanding that Trump is a brilliant diplomat who avoided and stop several wars.”
Time to get on the stage. If you think Trump is some sort of diplomatic genius then you have just explained all of your silly CC ideas. What did Tillerson his secretary of state call him. That’s right a f**king moron. I say that’s a bit kind.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 4:38 pm

You’ve met Donald Trump and Rex Tillerson I assume? Or at least bought and read their books?

Simon
Reply to  doonman
October 26, 2024 6:14 pm

I’ve heard enough of both to know which one I think is telling the truth.

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 27, 2024 7:19 am

So, dependent upon the Liberal Legacy Media to tell you how to think and what to believe? Sad Sad Sad

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 6:31 pm

Tillerson was a leftist flake… and full of sour grapes.

Trump had every reason to FIRE him for his traitorous ineptitude

Trump is totally correct on the CC agenda.. It is totally FAKE.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Simon
October 28, 2024 7:44 am

What negotiations did Trump participate in as a private citizen on behalf of the US? You’re just an idiot.

Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 8:18 pm

You could do us all a favour.. buy an EV and park it in your garage.

Except I’m sure not even you are SIMPLY DUMB enough to do that… Or are you !!??

Simon
Reply to  bnice2000
October 25, 2024 8:57 pm

What a child you are. I have an EV in my garage. Had it for three years. Love eeeet.

Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 10:16 pm

So you admit you are DUMB ENOUGH to park an EV in your garage.

Why am I not surprised. 😉

You have shown your STUPIDITY knows no bounds.

Mr.
Reply to  Simon
October 25, 2024 10:34 pm

You’re so privileged to live in a place with a garage where you can charge your EV for hours and hours overnight.

~ 30% of Australian households and ~ 40% of Canadian households live in strata condos etc that can’t have charging facilities for EVs.

I believe the % is even higher in the UK.

Leftists really do live the privileged “I’m alright Jack” ideology, hey?

Simon
Reply to  Mr.
October 25, 2024 11:34 pm

If it doesn’t work don’t buy one. It works for me…. and trust me, I have no guilt, just a nice warm feeling in my heart for saving the planet… oh and a vehicle that is so much fun to drive. 0-60 in under 4 seconds. Love that.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 4:22 am

“for saving the planet”

ROFLMAO.

Showing yet again just how much of simpleton you really are.

EVs are far more environmentally destructive than ICE at every stage of their existence.

All that extra mining, all those extra real toxins, the inability of recycling.

Waste sector fears ‘catastrophic’ electric vehicle battery fires, as first wave of EV batteries reach end-of-life – ABC News

Sorry, you poor gullible little simpleton, but your EV is DESTROYING the planet.

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 8:37 am

Simon
October 25, 2024 11:34

If it doesn’t work, don’t buy one.

Difficult to do when government mandates give you no other option

Simon
Reply to  Bryan A
October 26, 2024 12:00 pm

I don’t know of any government that says you have to buy an EV. Please state which you speak of that in 2024 says you can only buy an EV?

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 2:46 pm

Numerous states as well as the Biden Admin…
No new ICV sales after 2035!

Simon
Reply to  Bryan A
October 26, 2024 5:56 pm

So you agree with me that in 2024 there are no restrictions. Thank you.

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 10:45 pm

The electric vehicle mandate in California, part of the Advanced Clean Cars II regulations, takes effect in 2026 and will be fully implemented by 2035
Starting 2026: 35% of new cars sold must be electric
By 2035: 100% of new passenger cars, trucks, and SUVs sold must be zero-emission

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 4:46 pm

Hey Simon, I have solar power on my roof, my house is insulated, I have all energy saving appliances and I drive a lead acid battery powered golf cart on the greens.

I never really thought I was “saving the planet” but now I see your point.

That makes us climate savings buddies now, doesn’t it?

But I’m still not voting for Harris

Simon
Reply to  doonman
October 26, 2024 5:58 pm

Well I will take a climate saving buddy from here, voting for Harris or not. Shall we go out for a vegetarian meal?

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 6:35 pm

The fact that you actually think driving your pretend EV and eating vegan will have any effect whatsoever on the climate…

… just shows how mind-numbingly STUPID and GULLIBLE you really are.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 7:02 pm

I’ll eat the ham sandwich. I have no religious dietary restrictions.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 3:51 am

Nice that you can afford one- most people can’t afford one.

Simon
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 26, 2024 12:01 pm

Yep I can.I’m a successful capitalist. But soon you wont need to be. That’s what happens with new tech. It gets cheaper.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 6:45 pm

Delusional.. !! In every aspect.

Reply to  Simon
October 29, 2024 12:13 am

Perhaps you should reconsider:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMeC6etqAfg

Why has South Korea just banned all EV’s from underground carparks?

Reply to  Graemethecat
October 29, 2024 4:24 am

It took 5 seconds to get these AI results.

“South Korea has not completely banned all EVs from underground carparks, but some regions like Seoul have implemented restrictions, primarily due to growing concerns about potential fires caused by electric vehicle batteries in enclosed spaces, particularly when the battery is highly charged, following recent incidents of EV fires in underground parking lots; this has led to anxieties among residents and prompted authorities to take precautionary measures like limiting the charge level of EVs parked underground or even banning them entirely in certain situations. 
Key points about the situation:
Recent fire incidents:
A significant EV fire in an underground parking lot in Seoul sparked public fear and prompted the restrictions. 
Charge level restrictions:
Some areas like Seoul are currently advising EV owners not to park their vehicles in underground parking if the battery is charged above a certain percentage (around 90%). 
Not a complete ban:
While some apartment complexes might choose to completely ban EVs from their underground parking due to resident concerns, this is not a nationwide policy.”

So:

  • Your initial claim is false.
  • The limited bans now in place are not data based.
Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 9:18 am

Simon, neither you nor the fools who wrote those articles have a clue what you are talking about. Most ICEV vehicle fires occur on older vehicles and the fire has nothing to do with the fact that the vehicle runs on gasoline. They are electrical and friction fires from poor maintenance as documented by the National Fire Protection Association. The average vehicle in the US fleet is older than all but the oldest EVs on the road, so yes, there are more ICEV fires, but they have nothing to do with the fact that the vehicles have an ICE. What do you think will happen when there are 50 millions 12 year old EVs on the road?

Simon
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
October 26, 2024 12:03 pm

What do you think will happen when there are 50 millions 12 year old EVs on the road?”
My guess is there will be fewer and fires cleaner air. What’s yours?

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 6:36 pm

They will be sitting at side of the road.. many as piles of ash.

Also, totally un-recyclable. and worth absolutely NOTHING.

Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 6:51 pm

Glad you are prepared to throw your money away.

On a product that can’t be thrown away or recycled.

Stupidity runs deep with you, doesn’t it.

EV-depreciation
Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
October 26, 2024 10:48 pm

There will be 50,000,000 worthless vehicles being junked containing 359,000,000,000 (billion) 18650 Li-Ion cells because no-one will want to buy them on the secondary market

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Simon
October 28, 2024 7:49 am

I’m through with you. Arguing with an idiot is senseless. Go back into your hole and leave us alone.

Reply to  Simon
October 27, 2024 6:02 am

More figures lie and liars figure. You want to do a good comparison? What is the rate of fires from accident damage in ICE versus EV’s? And, I mean ALL accidents, from unreported collisions due to minor/no external damage up to and including massive collisions. Insurance companies are raising rates on EV’s because even minor bumps with no external damage can cause sufficient battery damage to later kick off a melt-down.

Most ICE non-collision fires occur in older vehicles that experience fuel system faults from leaky lines that carry fuel. Let’s see how many EV fires begin to occur in vehicles that are 15 – 30 years old that have had no maintenance, and assuming they will last that long!

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Jim Gorman
October 28, 2024 7:51 am

Most ICE fires have nothing to do with the fuel system.

John Hultquist
Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 8:04 pm

Why do you bother with non-relevant schist?
Underground fires have burned for years, so what?
Centralia mine fire – Wikipedia

An underground fire near Boulder has burned for more than a century. Here’s the plan to finally extinguish it | KUNC

This Mysterious Fire in Australia Has Been Burning For at Least 6,000 Years : ScienceAlert

I’ve driven ‘ICE’ cars and trucks for 66 years without having one catch fire.

Reply to  John Hultquist
October 25, 2024 8:23 pm

I once thought a car I was driving was on fire…

Commodore V8 suddenly had huge plumes of smoke coming out the back while driving on a freeway. Scared the crap out of me..

Turned out a transmission fluid hose broke, spewing auto-transmission fluid all over the exhaust pipe.

I’ve never seen a burnt out ICE car that wasn’t obviously intentional.

Seen one EV on fire…. scary how much high-pressure flame there was.

leefor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 25, 2024 9:29 pm

Wow, a coal mine fire lasted 4 weeks? How much fuel was that? Was it explosive?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 26, 2024 1:41 am

Yes, there are fires, and bad ones, of all kinds. This is not the issue. The issue is, when all cars are EVs, and fires continue at present rates, and are as hard to put out as now, what will the social and human costs be?

The green fantasy is, we just replace all our cars with EVs, which we charge from wind and solar, and we carry on as before. Well, its becoming clear we don’t. One thing that will have to go is current parking practices. Also storage practices in garages attached to houses or blocks of flats.

Its also becoming clear that installing huge quantities of grid scale lithium batteries isn’t going to work. Because there will be few fires, but when they happen the consequences will be catastrophic.

The fallacy is to say that fires are more frequent among ICE cars. They may be, but its not the important parameter. The important parameter is total cost, that is, frequency times consequences. Its looking like, by this parameter, getting to the utopia of all electric cars is going to be unaffordable. Electric bikes and scooters are clearly a no-no, unless you have an exterior shed where you can charge and store them. I would not store a cordless mower indoors, either.

Costs in lives by the way, not just narrow financial. There will be a bus fire or a ferry or tunnel fire one of these days. It will provoke a reaction. Most of our health and safety regulation aims at reducing or eliminating infrequent catastrophic accidents. These are exactly that, waiting to happen.

don k
Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 26, 2024 3:22 am

Indeed. The coal seam fire at Centrailia, PA has been burning for 62 years and has proved to be inextinguishable. The town — population around 2000 in 1962 — has been pretty much abandoned. Population in 2000 was 5.

Reply to  don k
October 26, 2024 6:42 am

There are underground coal fires all over the western US.

Reply to  karlomonte
October 26, 2024 7:48 pm

In west central Colorado we have a few coal seams that cannot be extinguished and are ignited by lightning.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
October 26, 2024 9:01 am

With all your practical knowledge and abilities I would like to se you light a closed can of gasoline on fire. It’s not as easy as you think.

Rud Istvan
October 25, 2024 3:01 pm

Some fun factoids for WUWTers.
I was the global head of the Motorola Strategy Offices during the mid 1990’s when Motorola converted cell phones and public safety radios from nickel metal hydride to LiIon. The advantage was obvious—higher energy density meant more talk time. The disadvantage was also obvious—safety. (For those not battery knowledgable, NiMH uses metallic anodes and cathodes, plus aqueous potassium hydroxide as electrolyte—inherently fire safe. LiIon uses a graphite anode plus an organic solvent electrolyte—both flammable and inherently fire unsafe.)
We spent years engineering safety into our relatively very small LiIon batteries even compared to laptops. Three examples.

  1. Redundant charging/discharging IC battery control, so no possibility of overcharging or runaway discharge in a bad device even if one control circuit went bad.
  2. Device layout re-engineered so that if a battery problem did occur, minimized user potential harm. You can replace a cell phone, but not a cell phone customer.
  3. Strict imposition of Motorola ‘Six Sigma’ quality processes on all battery cell suppliers (we made the batteries plus the IC control ourselves), mainly Panasonic. With regular strict on site quality control inspections. Minimized chances of cell level manufacturing defects.

At the battery scale of E-bikes and EVs all that is mostly not possible, especially with many such batteries (and E-bikes) coming from China. Tesla uses Panasonic cells (the Tesla battery gigafactories are actually ‘joint ventures’ with a Panasonic cell factory within a Tesla battery factory, all under one roof), and Motorola taught Panasonic 6sigma quality control three decades ago. Yet Tesla still has battery fire problems simply due to scale—lots more and bigger cells in a Tesla than in a police radio. A simple probability problem, as 6sigma ‘quarantees’ not more than ~3 defects per million cells produced.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
October 25, 2024 4:12 pm

You know more about batteries than I do.
But isn’t one of the advantages of nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries over NiCad batteries that they didn’t or were less prone to develop a “memory”?
(That is, if you run a 2 hour NiCad battery consistently for only 15 minutes then recharge it, it’s time to be able to supply full power will be reduced to just 15 minutes.)
NiMH batteries don’t tend to develop a memory, as long as they are run down periodically before recharging? (I think the Prius used NiMH batteries?)

Ever see a diamond shaped placard with a symbol and maybe a number on the side a truck?
Those are to give first responders a clue to what they’re dealing with in an accident and how to respond and protect the locals.
In my 2020 Emergency Response Guidebook, Lithium metal and/or Lithium ion batteries have their own placard.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Gunga Din
October 25, 2024 6:19 pm

NiMH had two advantages over original NiCad. No memory was one. The other was slightly better energy density. Mot switched as soon as commercially viable.

Reply to  Gunga Din
October 26, 2024 11:00 am

I’ll add a side note about lithium AA batteries.
15 or so years ago I bought one those “atomic” clocks. (They pick up a signal from an atomic clock and resets itself.)
One of the times I needed to replace the battery I used a lithium AA battery. (They’re supposed to last longer.)
The clock stopped syncing.
I took it into work and had one our instrument techs look at it.
Turns out the lithium AA was putting out 1.8 volts instead of the usual 1.5 volts of a normal AA.
The extra 0.3 volts was interfering with the radio receiver so the clock never got the signal.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Gunga Din
October 26, 2024 2:13 pm

The inherent lithium electrochemical potential voltage is about 3.5 (depends on cathode materials). So in all lithium primaries, there is a simple IC Buck downverter to 1.5 (a simple resistor would waste lifetime as heat). In the early days, Buck downverters weren’t precise. These days, they are. I use primary lithium AA in all my smoke detectors and my thermostat because they last about 4 years rather than 1.5 years with alkalines. Never have had a problem—but then don’t own anything syncing directly to an atomic clock.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
October 27, 2024 1:29 pm

Thanks. I use lithium AA in a few things.
Only ever had a problem with the clock.
I live in Central Ohio and it syncs via radio with an atomic in (I think) Colorado.
I’d guess it must be shortwave.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
October 27, 2024 6:22 am

There is a site on the web “isixsigma.com” that everyone doing climate research should read and learn from. Quality control is sadly lacking in the data collection and analysis in climate science.

October 25, 2024 4:50 pm

Battery electric buses should be built so that all windows can be pushed out in an emergency. That simple and inexpensive solution could save a lot of lives if one of these buses does ignite. However, I suspect that sensible rules like this won’t be implemented until there has been a disastrous bus fire

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Smart Rock
October 25, 2024 6:20 pm

If EV batteries go, they go explosively. Push out windows won’t matter much.

Gregg Eshelman
October 25, 2024 4:54 pm

If green energy is the future, your carbon dioxide fire extinguisher will be banned.

October 25, 2024 5:09 pm

Earlier this month.

https://www.nprillinois.org/illinois/2024-10-08/state-farm-removing-ev-charging-stations-from-parking-decks

“Following an Enterprise Risk Assessment and evaluations conducted by local fire departments and workplace protection in each hub and corporate headquarters, fire risks were identified in the parking garages that cannot be mitigated at this time.”

There. The insurance people are taking note.

Reply to  David Dibbell
October 25, 2024 6:27 pm

Any reasonably responsible risk assessor considering BEV parking and charging in underground carparks would have such onerous recommendations that they exclude the possibility of having safe parking at an acceptable cost.

Each charging bay should be fire/explosion isolated from other vehicles and with safe explosion vents for atmospheric release of pressure and reaction products. A 75kWh battery is a 270MJ chemical bomb awaiting detonation. Will not be controlled by water suppression or foam flooding.

Reply to  RickWill
October 26, 2024 3:18 am

Good points. I spent a fair amount of time in my 40+ years in industry addressing various requirements determined by insurance-driven risk assessments. The measures you mention work well against flammable and combustible materials, but the speed, intensity, and chemical nature of the lithium battery fires introduces huge new risks.

technically right
October 25, 2024 5:45 pm

Was a firefighter for 10 years back in the mid-70′ early 80’s. Rolled on maybe 25-30 vehicle fires. Depending on the apparatus, we carried between 750 and 1,000 gallons. Was always able to put the fire out without additional water.

October 25, 2024 5:45 pm

Lithium battery fires are breaking out

This terminally is not accurate. Lithium battery catastrophic failure is a melt-down. It is the uncontrolled release of chemical energy. A fire, by definition, requires fuel and oxygen, which is usually sourced from the atmosphere.

If Green Energy is the Future, Bring a Fire Extinguisher

There is no point in bringing a fire extinguisher to a battery melt-down because they work on the principle of excluding the air from the burning material so the fire loses intensity. Battery melt-down is not controlled by excluding air. Batteries are controlled chemical reactions, which can become explosive during a melt-down – a chemical bomb. The only safe course of action is to clear the area and allow the reaction to proceed; hopefully without explosive consequences.

So a catastrophic battery faiulure is a melt-down.

Placing a large number of such chemical “bombs” in an enclosed space is risky business as has been observed with ships being sunk and car parks falling down as a result of the uncontrolled melt-down of batteries..

Using correct terminally helps everyone better understand the risk.

I once accidentally bridged the terminals of a single 100Ah cell with an aluminium link that was 25mm wide and 3mm thick, the aluminium was instantly vaporised at the point of contact and just disappeared as a metal spatter to break the circuit. The chemical reaction inside lithium cells can precede at a very fast rate without passivating the electrodes.

October 25, 2024 5:52 pm

“If Green Energy is the Future, Bring a Fire Extinguisher”
Ummmm sorry.. but a fire extinguisher is not much use in an EV fire.

observa
October 25, 2024 9:45 pm

What would insurance underwriters know that climate changer elites don’t eh?
US Auto Insurer BANS EV charging in its OWN car parks | MGUY Australia

Izaak Walton
October 25, 2024 11:24 pm

This is simple fear mongering that confuses bad engineering designs with fundamental physics issues. All forms of energy storage can suffer from a catastropic release. Nobody
would want to be downstream of a burst dam for example. But the fact that badly built dams are unsafe and deadly doesn’t mean that all dams are unsafe and shouldn’t be allowed. All it means is that they needs to be properly engineered with failsafes. The same is true with electric batteries. If you buy a cheap knock-off from China don’t be surprised if it catches fire unexpectedly. If you spend more and buy some from a decent supplier then it is as safe as any other power source.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 1:11 am

Would you regard Mercedes a ‘decent supplier’?

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 4:15 am

Another moron that would buy an EV and park in their attached garage.

Izzy-dumborwhat…… meet Darwin. !

BTW.. there have been many EV fires from self-styled “high-end” brands.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 4:18 am
Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 26, 2024 6:45 am

This is simple fear mongering that confuses bad engineering designs with fundamental physics issues.

No, try again.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
October 29, 2024 12:26 am

Care to explain why EV charging is banned in an insurance company’s own carpark?

Reply to  Graemethecat
October 29, 2024 4:20 am

They subscribed to the Telegraph and were too lazy to walk down the hall to the actuarial department.

October 26, 2024 12:19 am

Each lithium battery fire contributes to a deadly air pollution : just compare it to a gas power plant which emits only beneficial gases as CO2 and WV.

If the EPA was truely concerned by air pollution, they would have banned almost any lithium battery beyond some capacity and with respect to soil pollution, any solar panel (silicium) or wind farm (epoxy, fiber glass by turbine blades erosion).

October 26, 2024 6:42 am

That is a good question…

‘Why did our parked electric car burst into flames?’

A mother said her family was “lucky to have got out safely” after their parked electric car exploded and engulfed their house in flames.

Georgina Bayliss from Spratton, Northamptonshire, said their Mercedes EQA had been parked outside their house for several hours before the explosion.

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