With Tree Rings On Their Fingers

CDN

There’s a lot of apparently confident talk about how current temperatures compare with those in the past, including claims of 2023 being the “hottest year ever” or at least in the last 125,000. But how do we actually know, and how much do we actually know, about historic and prehistoric temperatures? In this Climate Discussion Nexus “Backgrounder” video John Robson examines the uses, and abuses, of various temperature proxies.

Transcript below [apologies for any misspellings of proper nouns~cr]



You’ve probably heard the claim that the Earth today is the warmest it’s been in a thousand years, or 10,000, or even 125,000 years. But how do they know, when the earliest modern thermometers were invented by German physicist Daniel Fahrenheit in 1709, and we have very few systematic weather records anywhere before the mid-1800s, and few or none in most of the world until the mid-20th century? So how can anyone claim to know temperatures anywhere, let alone around the world, in, say, 1708, or even further back? How do we know what’s warmer today in Scotland than it was in 1314, the year Robert the Bruce defeated the English army at Bannockburn, or that Rome is warmer today than in 306, when Constantine became emperor, or 410 AD, when Alaric the Visigoth invaded and sacked it, or that Israel is warmer today than in 587 BC, when King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and led the Jews into captivity? He didn’t confiscate their thermometers—there weren’t any. So how can we say anything definitive, or even plausible, about a single location, never mind the whole world, 70% of which is open ocean, where nobody was keeping even anecdotal records?

Obviously, we don’t have satellite data to make up for the lack of thermometers. Instead, scientists use indirect measures called proxies. These are evidence from the geological record of what the landscape was like in the past that we believe correlate fairly well with temperature—things like tree ring widths, different isotopes of carbon in ice core layers, and the kind and quantity of shells, pollen, and other remains of living creatures found in sediments at the bottom of the ocean. If a proxy record goes back thousands of years and we think we know fairly precisely when a given part of it was created, then according to the theory, it can be used to estimate what the local temperature probably was back then compared to today. Now, we’re not criticizing proxies in principle; on the contrary, they represent an ingenious way to get important data that we can’t measure directly—or at least they can represent an important way.

But when you look closely, as we’re about to do, you find that the estimates can be rough, very uncertain, and often no better than sheer guesswork. In fact, sometimes they’re much worse than guesswork. What you have is researchers who know what they want to find and deliberately select only the kind of proxy, or only the specific proxy data series, that says what they want to hear. And far too many scientists who work with these proxies have actually gone to great lengths not to disclose the uncertainties but to hide them, to make sure the public never hears about how imprecise, or sometimes even dubious, their reconstructions are—which is where we come in.

For the Climate Discussion Nexus, I’m John Robson, and this is a CDN backgrounder on proxy reconstructions of the Earth’s temperature history. But before we plunge into the past, let’s look at how temperatures are measured, or not measured, more recently. Because if you’re going to compare modern records with older ones, it matters how both are generated. Systematic weather records from around the world since the mid-1800s are archived at the Global Historical Climatology Network and elsewhere. So, if, for instance, we pick a fairly recent year, like 1965, we can see that records were available on land from most countries around the world, although many places only had partial records from a handful of stations, and the annual average had to be based on estimating the missing numbers. And of course, there’s always the question of how good the measurements were, where the instruments were situated, how well they were maintained, and how carefully they were read. And if 1965 is shaky, take a look 40 years further back, in 1925—there was hardly any data from Africa, South America, and vast regions of Asia. Yet we’re now confidently told that, say, the Central African Republic was hotter in 2023 than in 1923. And if we go back another 40 years to 1885, we see that basically there was no data at all, other than the US, Europe, and a few places in India and Australia.

Now, here’s a surprise: from 1885 to 1965, the record gets more complete, but after 1965, it thins out again. As of 2006, the sample looked much the way it had early in the 20th century. And if we chart the number of locations supplying data to the global climate archive over the years from 1900 to 2008, it rather unexpectedly looks like this. So, as you can see, the sample size has been constantly changing, which ought always to make us uneasy about precise findings, or more exactly, claims of precise findings. And when scientists construct those famous charts of global average temperature back to the mid-1800s, they quietly admit among themselves that over half the data is missing and has to be imputed, which is a fancy way of saying ‘made up.’ But they don’t draw this issue to the attention of the public, and journalists don’t ask about it—or at least, they don’t ask the scientists who would insist on bringing it up. The coverage is fragmentary, however, which is a major statistical challenge over the entire period. Over half—53%—of data entries are missing, most of them at the poles and over Africa. The coverage generally worsens back in time, with notable gaps during the two World Wars. That survey just covers the modern data, which is supposedly the best part of the record and is at least in part based on thermometers. Prior to about 1850, we have to resort to proxies to get temperature estimates. And while there are many potential proxy records, most attention is paid to tree rings, ice core layers, and marine sediments. So, obviously, it’s important to ask how reliable they are. In 2006, the US National Academy of Sciences did just that, conducting a review of all these methods in light of the controversies that had arisen concerning the IPCC hockey stick graph, which was mostly based on tree rings.

In general, that review said the proxies sometimes contain useful information, but scientists have to be careful about how they use them, and they need to be honest about the uncertainties they specifically cautioned that uncertainties of the published reconstructions have been underestimated. So how are proxy-based reconstructions done? Let’s start with tree rings. As trees grow, they add a ring of new wood around their trunks every year. Scientists measure the width and density of these rings by taking small, pencil-like cores out of the trunk, and the general principle is that trees grow faster and further in good years than bad, so thick rings mean favorable conditions, which certainly would include warmth. So variations in these rings might, in some cases, correlate with variations in temperature. The first problem, which is obvious to anyone who’s ever seen a tree stump, is that the ring width patterns can be completely different depending on which side of the tree you take the core from. And the National Academy’s panel noted that many other things than temperature affect tree ring growth, such as precipitation, disease, fire, and competition from other trees. Scientists need to try to find locations where they are sure temperature is the main controlling factor, but even if they are diligent, it’s not always possible to know if that’s the case.

They also emphasize that it’s not enough to look at a single tree. If a pattern found in a tree core is truly a climate signal, it should be seen in cores taken from at least 10 to 20 trees in an area, because a single tree can suffer storm damage or be attacked by pests. So whenever you see a tree-ring-based reconstruction, the first question you need to ask is how many trees were sampled. But good luck finding out. One of the problems we run into when we look at these studies is the number of times scientists rely on insufficiently large samples, or worse, take a large sample and then throw out the ones that don’t tell them what they want to see, or simply refuse to say how many trees they examined. Canadian researcher Steven McIntyre spent about 15 years blogging at the site ClimateAudit.org, detailing his efforts to get tree ring researchers to report these things, often without success. If they’re not deliberately hiding something, they’re sure doing a good imitation. Another problem with tree rings is that as a tree gets older and its trunk widens, if the volume of growth is constant, the width of each year’s ring will decrease, meaning that ring widths will get narrower, even if temperatures stay the same. Scientists need to use statistical models to remove this trend from the data, but every time you start manipulating data, even for valid reasons and carefully, it creates further uncertainties. So it’s far from straightforward. For instance, the National Academy’s panel focused attention on two issues that arose during the debates about the Michael Mann hockey stick graph.

First, they pointed out that the underlying theory assumes the correlation between temperature and tree ring widths must be constant over time. If wide rings in the 20th century mean temperatures were high, the narrower rings hundreds of years ago mean it was cooler.

But what if this sub-theory doesn’t hold? What if something else changes the growth pattern from time to time? It might sound like a weird thing to worry about, but when you start checking tree rings against actual recent thermometer data, you find significant evidence that it does happen. For instance, after 1960, tree rings in many locations around the world started getting narrower even while thermometers said local temperatures were rising. Scientists gave this a fancy label—the Divergence Problem—waved it away by saying it was probably a one-off occurrence, and then started deleting the post-1960 data so that people wouldn’t notice it. And we discussed a particularly glaring example of this approach in our video on Hiding the Decline. Unfortunately, as Rudyard Kipling once said, giving something a long name doesn’t make it better. On the contrary, the Divergence Problem undermines the whole field, or forest, because if trees aren’t picking up the warming happening now, how do we know they didn’t also fail to pick it up then? If narrow tree rings are happening during a warm interval today, how can scientists insist that narrow tree rings prove it was cold in the past? And worse, instead of being honest about the question, scientists simply resorted to hiding the decline, hoping no one would notice. It didn’t work.

Another issue the National Academy pointed to, still on the tree ring proxy, was that some kinds of tree are definitely not good for recording temperatures and should be avoided. They particularly singled out bristlecone pines. These are small conifers that grow to a great age, which of course makes them superficially appealing. Unfortunately, over their long lives, they form twisted, bunched-up trunks with ring width patterns that have nothing to do with temperature. And one of the discoveries made by Steven McIntyre in his analysis of the Mann hockey stick was that its shape depended entirely on a set of 20 bristlecone pine records from Colorado that have a 20th-century trend of bigger rings despite, awkwardly, coming from a region where thermometers say no warming took place. This figure shows in the top panel the result of applying Mann’s statistical method to a collection of over 200 tree ring proxies, including the 20 bristlecone series, using a flawed method that puts most of the emphasis on those bristlecones. It has a compelling hockey stick shape. The bottom panel shows the same calculation after removing just the 20 bristlecone pine records. It’s clear that the hockey stick shape is entirely due to tree rings that experts have long known are not valid for showing temperature. What’s worse, as McIntyre has pointed out, Mann himself computed the bottom graph, but he hid the results instead of showing them to his readers.

This pattern is far too common. When we look hard at paleoclimate reconstructions, they fall apart on close inspection, but the scientists who do them almost never tell you about their weaknesses upfront. In fact, it’s happened so often that you’re justified in assuming it’s the rule, not the exception.

Another series that used to be popular in climate reconstructions was a collection of Russian tree rings from the Polar Urals region, introduced in a 1995 journal article by the late British climatologist Keith Briffa and his co-authors. They argue that their tree ring reconstruction showed the 20th century was quite warm compared to the previous 1,100 years, and they specifically identified the years around AD 1000 as among the coldest of the millennium. Here’s that chart.

This Briffa Polar Urals data series naturally became very popular in other tree ring reconstructions. But the problem was that the early part of the data was only based on three trees, which is not enough for confident conclusions. In 1998, some other scientists obtained more tree ring samples from the same areas, and suddenly the picture looked completely different. Instead of AD 1000 being super cold, it was right in the middle of the hottest period of all—the supposedly non-existent Medieval Warm Period—and the 20th century was no longer the least bit unusual.

So what did Briffa and his colleagues do? Did they publish a correction or let people know that they’d actually found evidence of a Medieval Warm Period? No, of course not. They just quietly stopped using Polar Urals data and switched to a new collection of tree rings from the nearby Yamal Peninsula that had the right shape. Now that switcheroo was bad enough, but the story gets worse. The dogged Steve McIntyre asked Briffa to release his Yamal data, but Briffa steadfastly refused. Eventually, after nearly a decade, the journal where he published his research ordered Briffa to release it, and McIntyre promptly made two remarkable discoveries. First, the number of trees in the 20th-century segment dropped off to only five near the end, which clearly fails the data quality standard. Second, McIntyre found that another scientist, Fritz Schweingruber, who happened to be a co-author of Briffa, had already archived lots of tree ring data from the same area, and while it looked similar to Briffa’s up to the year 1900, instead of going up in the 20th century, it went down. Briffa, surprise, surprise, hadn’t used it. So it’s not just incomplete data that happens to have a bias; it’s data that’s been deliberately chosen to introduce one.

This graph from McIntyre’s ClimateAudit website shows a close-up of the 20th-century portion. The red line is the data Briffa used, the black line is the Schweingruber data, and the green line is the result from combining all the data together. Clearly, when you include the more complete data, the blade of the hockey stick disappears, and the 20th century shows a slight cooling, not warming, which is kind of important to the story. Another source of bias in tree ring reconstructions comes from the practice of something called pre-screening. Recall that the National Academy of Science panel said that researchers should sample a lot of trees at a location, and if there is a climate signal, it should be common to all of them. If modern temperatures line up with some of the tree cores but not others, it might be a spurious correlation. This would mean the early portion of the record is not reliable for temperature reconstructions. In a 2006 study, Australian statistician David Stockwell illustrated the problem by using a computer to generate a thousand sets of random numbers, each one 2,000 numbers long. He selected the ones where the last 100 numbers happened to correlate with the orthodox 20th-century global average temperature series and threw out the rest, then combined the data together the way paleoclimatologists do. The result was an impressive hockey stick, which according to common practice would lead to the conclusion that today’s climate is the warmest in the past millennium. The problem is the graph has absolutely no information about the past climate in it, true or false.

Instead, it was constructed using random numbers that were then pre-screened to fit modern temperatures and then spliced to the modern temperature record to create the illusion of providing information about the past, which is exactly what far too many tree ring researchers are doing now. One way to guard against generating spurious results like this one is to use all the data from a sampling location, but researchers on a mission don’t do so. Instead, they pre-screen and may even end up throwing out most of the data they’ve collected if it’s what it takes to get the result they wanted. In 1989, American climate scientist Gordon Jacoby and his co-author Rosanne D’Arrigo published a reconstruction of northern hemisphere temperatures that had the usual hockey stick shape, although it only went back to 1670. In the article, the authors said they sampled data from 36 sites but only kept data from 10 of them. So McIntyre emailed Jacoby and asked for the others, and Jacoby, unsurprisingly, refused to show them. What is surprising is the frankness of his explanation: “Sometimes, even with our best efforts in the field, there may not be a common low-frequency variation among the cores or trees at a site. This result would mean that the trees are influenced by other factors that interfere with the climate response. There can be fire, insect infestation, wind or ice storm, etc., that disturb the trees, or there can be ecological factors that influence growth. We try to avoid the problems but sometimes cannot.

If we get a good climatic story from an chronology, we write a paper using it. That is our funded mission. It does not make sense to expend efforts on marginal or poor data, and it is a waste of funding agency and taxpayer dollars.” The rejected data are set aside and not archived. And you can guess what makes a good climatic story. McIntyre eventually gave up trying to get the 26 datasets Jacoby threw away, but Jacoby died in 2014, and the same year, his university archived a lot of his data, and later in the fall of 2023, McIntyre noticed that buried in the archive was one of the series Jacoby had rejected, from Sukakpak Peak in Alaska. Even though it was close to the two sites that Jacoby and D’Arrigo had retained, and had at least as many individual tree cores in it as other sites, it was rejected as being poor data. And here’s what it looks like: the ring widths, if they’re a temperature proxy, show that the Medieval period was very warm, then there were a couple of very cold periods, and the 20th century was nothing unusual, which is not a good climate story, which is what poor data now means to these sorts. So they threw it out. You can see how the game works. When they get a hockey stick shape, they say it’s based on good data, and when we ask how they define good, the answer is, if it’s shaped like a hockey stick, QED.

Now let’s look at a very different type of temperature proxy, marine sediments. Here scientists look at organic compounds called alkanones, which are produced in the ocean by tiny creatures called phytoplankton and which settle in layers on the ocean floor. Since alkanones have chemical properties that correlate to temperature, by drilling cores out of the ocean floor and examining the changing density of alkanones in layers that they estimate to have been formed at various times, science can say something about the past climate. Once again, there’s a lot more uncertainty than we often hear about, because the layers form very slowly. Unlike tree rings, alkanone layers don’t pick up year-by-year changes, only average changes over multiple centuries. A single data point will represent the alkanone density in a thin layer of a core sample, but it might, at best, indicate not a single year but average climate conditions over several hundred years.

As a result, it means they can’t be used for comparing modern short-term warming and cooling trends to the past. The appropriate comparison would be a single data point for temperature from 1823 to 2023. On the plus side, because thin layers cover long periods, a single sediment core can provide information a long way into the past, even 10,000 years or more. And thus it was that in March 2013, headlines around the world announced that the Earth was now warmer than any time in the past 11,000 years, based on a new proxy reconstruction published in Science magazine by a young scientist named Shaun Marcott, based mostly on a global sample of alkanone cores collected by other scientists in previous years. The graph showed that the climate had warmed after the end of the last glaciation, 11,000 years ago, stayed warm for millennia, then cooled gradually until the start of the 20th century, after which it warmed at an exceptional rate, doing 8,000 years of cooling in only one century. Gotcha, right? Except a reader at Climate Audit soon noticed something odd. Marcott had just finished his PhD at Oregon State University, and the paper in Science was based on one of his thesis chapters, which was posted online, and, drum roll, please, in that version, there was no uptick at the end, no 20th-century warming, no hockey stick. So where did the blade of the stick come from in the version published in Science? While climate scientists were busy proclaiming the Marcott result as more proof of the climate crisis, it fell to outsiders, like once again Steve McIntyre and his readers at Climate Audit, to dig into the details. In this case, McIntyre was able to obtain the Marcott data promptly, and to show that the big jump at the end was based on just one single data point.

As a mining consultant, McIntyre also knew something important about drill cores. The topmost layer, which represents the most recent data, can be contaminated during the drilling process. He wanted to know how the various scientists who collected the alkanone samples dealt with that issue, so he looked up the original studies, and to his surprise, he found that they didn’t consider the core tops to be reliable measures of recent temperatures. Most of them only reported temperature proxies starting centuries in the past, even a thousand years or more. Marcott and his co-authors had redated the cores to the present, but if they used the dates assigned by the original authors, there would be no uptick at the end. After being confronted with this data, Marcott and his co-authors put out a posting on the web in which they made a startling admission: “The 20th-century portion of our paleo temperature stack is not statistically robust, cannot be considered representative of global temperature changes, and therefore is not the basis of any of our conclusions.” But of course, the damage had been done. How many news stories that pounced on the original even mentioned this critical correction, let alone made a big fuss over it?

Now let’s look at another popular type of proxy, the one that comes from drilling out cores in large ancient ice caps like the ones over Greenland and Antarctica. These cylinders are believed to provide evidence of temperatures back hundreds of thousands of years, because every year, a layer of snow becomes ice, and the chemical composition of the ice contains clues about temperature. One of the most famous of these reconstructions is the Vostok ice core from Antarctica.

It shows that most of the past half-million years have been spent in Ice Age conditions, interrupted only by short interglacial periods. The last 10,000 years, our current interglacial, has been longer than the previous three, but colder than the previous four. The ice core record also shows that changes in and out of ice ages are extremely rapid. When we start diving into the next glaciation, we may not have much time to prepare, assuming, of course, that ice cores are reliable. It’s no good for us to point to methodological uncertainties when proxies confirm the orthodox and then tout their precision when they challenge it. And one important point about ice cores is that, as with sediment layers, the bubbles don’t take definitive shape in just one year or a couple of years, so there’s a certain degree of blurring.

That means that they can miss significant spikes or dips in temperature if they’re sudden and brief. “Brief” here being a word that can even extend to a century. Which isn’t to say that proxies are inherently useless, or even disreputable. On the contrary, as we said at the outset, we applaud the ingenuity of researchers who look for indirect ways of measuring things that matter when the direct ones aren’t available. But we insist that they be honest in how they collect and sort the data, and how they present it, including how much certainty they claim that it carries. Oh, there’s one more key point that we need to make about the whole business of using proxy data to reconstruct past temperatures. During the overlap period when we have both thermometer and proxy data, the challenge is to construct a statistical model connecting them.

And the problem is that, mathematically speaking, it’s well known that many different models can be constructed with no particular reason to favor one over the others. In a 2011 study in the Annals of Applied Statistics, two statisticians, Blakely McShane and Abraham Wyner, demonstrated this by constructing multiple different models using the Mann hockey stick data and showed that while they implied completely different conclusions about how today’s climate compares to the past, they all fit the data about the same. While climatologists tend to produce results like the red line, it would be just as easy and just as valid to produce the green line from the same data. So the uncertainties in these kinds of reconstructions go way beyond the little error bars climatologists like to draw around their reconstructions, because in truth, they can’t be certain of the shape of the reconstruction to begin with.

So yes, by all means apply proper scientific methods to reconstructing the past climate, but proper ones, handling data honestly and recognizing the often very large amount of uncertainty. For the Climate Discussion Nexus, I’m John Robson, and that’s our backgrounder on temperature reconstruction from the pre-metered era.

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Bryan A
April 22, 2024 10:20 am

We know one thing for certain, increasing CO2 in the Earth’s biosphere can’t tip the Climate into a permanent hot house state (ala Venus) if it could, then we’d already be there since CO2 levels were already significantly higher in the past and we’re in an interglacial now

Someone
Reply to  Bryan A
April 22, 2024 12:10 pm

On top of this, the hot temperature of Venus has nothing to do with CO2 GHE. Venus is hot because 1) it is closer to the Sun, and 2) the atmosphere density is much larger.

Reply to  Someone
April 22, 2024 12:50 pm

Just guessing but I think Venus is about half the distance to the sun as the Earth. And it’s atmosphere is much larger- mostly CO2. Not sure if that proves anything one way or the other.

don k
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
April 22, 2024 3:00 pm

Joseph

Not half I think. Closer to 3/4. In miles 67.5/93,5 = 0,72. But radiation falls off with the square(? I’d have thought cube not square) of distance. So 67.5**2/93.5**2= 0,52. Venus gets roughly twice as much radiation per square meter at Top Of Atmosphere as Earth.

If that’s wrong, someone please correct it. I’ve never been good at either math or physics. (Given my math/physics skills, perhaps I’m qualified to be a Climate Scientist)

MarkW
Reply to  don k
April 22, 2024 4:53 pm

It’s the surface area, not volume that matters, so square of distance.

JamesB_684
Reply to  don k
April 23, 2024 7:21 am

The Sun is far too big to be considered a point source, which would have used the cube formula. AS MarkW points out, use the surface area of the Sun disk and the square of distance formula.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  JamesB_684
April 23, 2024 8:34 am

The sun is far enough away to be considered a point source.
EM wave fronts are spherical shells.
R^2 is valid.
A=4πr^2

Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
April 23, 2024 10:45 am

Like you say, the EM wave front is a spherical shell. The only radiation that really matters is the normal vector of the wave front between the Earth and the Sun. At our distance from the sun it really doesn’t even matter if the Sun is a point source or not. It is the EM wave front impacting the earth that matters. We subtend such a small angle that you can consider the EM wave as a flat plane hitting the Earth so it is all a normal vector.

Reply to  Someone
April 22, 2024 1:59 pm

Compared to Mars further away and much less dense atmosphere.
CO2 in Mars 95%, Venus 96.5%

Bryan A
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
April 22, 2024 3:07 pm

But relative to Earth at 1, Mars’ atmospheric density is .01 and Venus is 93

Reply to  Bryan A
April 23, 2024 7:14 am

All we need to do is ship 95% of Venus’s atmosphere to Mars, and both planets will become quite comfortable! 🙂

Reply to  Someone
April 22, 2024 7:34 pm

Venus has no water vapor in its atmosphere. It also has no water oceans on its surface. Assuming Venus and Earth had about the same amount of water in the past–its closeness to the Sun removed the water. The Earth has a dry stratosphere–Venus did not. Water is a great moderator of the climate.

Reply to  Jim Masterson
April 23, 2024 5:37 am

Water, in all its forms, I.e., gas, liquid, ice crystals, water droplets, clouds, ice, dew, rime, is the control knob of the weather.

CO2 is a 2 to 3% actor,

In the atmosphere, CO2 was 280 ppm before fossil fuels, about 140 ppm was added by human and natural sources, during the past 125 years.

Someone
Reply to  wilpost
April 24, 2024 7:25 am

Water in all of its phases is the most important climate player, participating in both positive and negative feedbacks, but hardly can be called a control knob.

Water is too abundant on global scale to be control knob. A control knob is something that can can be used to tweak the get a different result.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Jim Masterson
April 23, 2024 8:36 am

Venus is geo physically much more active than earth with something like 1000 x the number of active volcanos.

Someone
Reply to  Jim Masterson
April 24, 2024 7:32 am

The most important difference between Earth and Venus is the absence of magnetic field on Venus. In fact, Mars, much further way from the Sun than both Venus and Earth, also lost most of its water due to lack of magnetic field.

Reply to  Jim Masterson
April 24, 2024 9:32 am

Venus has water vapor in its atmosphere, about 200 ppm, it also has clouds, mostly composed of sulphuric acid (150 ppm).

KevinM
April 22, 2024 10:42 am

A year or reading McIntyre compressed into one article.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Charles Rotter
April 22, 2024 10:53 am

Excellent, CR.

Scarecrow Repair
Reply to  Charles Rotter
April 22, 2024 11:29 am

I appreciate that. I can read so much faster than I can listen. I’ve bookmarked this for friends.

Reply to  Scarecrow Repair
April 23, 2024 5:49 am

Hearing aid?

Reply to  wilpost
April 23, 2024 8:42 pm

No, reading is a hearing aide.

Reply to  Charles Rotter
April 23, 2024 5:48 am

You did not mention the IPPC declared the LIA had not existed (it did not fit their narrative, based on their “private-property science”), but reports came in from around the world, that it had existed, and so IPPC had to retract its claim.

Oh, during the 1930s, temperatures were as high as at present, with CO2 ppm being much lower.

Look up the graph, and please add a CO2 graph to it. A true eye opener.

Richard Greene
Reply to  KevinM
April 22, 2024 12:12 pm

The Tree Ring Circus explained well

Better than McIntyre because this was well written and much easier to read. I can’t think of a better, easier to follow proxy article in decades. Partially spoiled by a photo of ugly Michael “hockey stink” Mann inserted in the middle.

Rud Istvan
April 22, 2024 10:43 am

Marcott’s academic misconduct in his 2013 Science hockey stick paper was proven beyond question in essay ‘A High Stick Foul’ in ebook Blowing Smoke. There is even a smoking gun chart comparison between the thesis and Science, both produced by Marcott.

Prior to the books publication, I sent that essay to Marsha McNutt, then editor of Science, requesting retraction and explaining publication would be in three months. Her assistant acknowledged receipt in writing, then nothing.

Based on his fraudulent Science paper, Marcott got a tenure track assistant professorship position at U Wisconsin Madison. Thus is the climate proxy game played.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Rud Istvan
April 22, 2024 2:42 pm

Everybody should get a copy of Rud’s e-book “Blowing Smoke.”

Duane
April 22, 2024 10:44 am

Good review of the data sources, but of course the media writers and talkers, most of whom never took a single course in natural science or statistics after high school, would never care about. It’s all about the narrative, not the substance.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Duane
April 22, 2024 10:52 am

Because there is very little substance to the narrative. Fake the proxies, boge the thermometer temperature record via bad siting and poor maintenance, ignore that climate models produce hot artifacts (tropical troposphere hotspot) that don’t exist, make alarming model based predictions that don’t come true, then demand an impossible Net Zero.

Reply to  Duane
April 22, 2024 1:28 pm

As admitted to in emails, it’s about “supporting the cause”. Whenever people band together to “support the cause”, it’s a political association, not a scientific one.

Denis
April 22, 2024 11:00 am

You say the Earth enters and leaves the depths of glacial ages quickly. From the ice core chart, it seems that entry is slow and erratic with downs and ups occurring over many thousands of years where the downs are ultimately more successful than the ups. Exits seem to occur “rapidly” in geologic terms, over a period of as little as a few hundred years with rather steady “ups” with few or no interrupting downs. Milankovitch cycles are thought to cause glacial ages, but do they operate in this manner,i.e., slow erratic entries and fast steady exits?

Scarecrow Repair
Reply to  Denis
April 22, 2024 11:34 am

We must be looking at different charts. Those temperatures drop pretty darned fast to -6° rise to -2, back to -6, down to -8. What more do you want?

Denis
Reply to  Scarecrow Repair
April 22, 2024 12:26 pm

You half to look at the Y axis. Its “fast” at first declining about half way down over a period of about 10,000 to 30,000 years. That’s as much as 1,000 generations of people. The decline is so slow that it seems unlikely that any single person will notice during their lifetime. But thereafter it becomes erratic and declines still more. Overall, the “pretty darn fast” decline occurs over roughly 70,000 years. Temps rise very much faster as you can plainly see perhaps noticeable over two or three generations. What do I want? I want to know why.

Reply to  Denis
April 22, 2024 12:53 pm

No doubt those charts like all climate data is only roughly approximate at best.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
April 23, 2024 8:48 pm

And as usual, there are no error bars on the temperatures. One has to assume that the uncertainty is negligible for the vertical scale chosen, which I find unlikely.

Reply to  Denis
April 22, 2024 3:48 pm

Not to beat a dead horse, but those aren’t temperatures, although climate science would like you to think they are. A judgement of how warm or cold absolute temperatures are can’t be judged from trending anomalies when you don’t have a baseline that is accurate.

Some of the declines could be from cold temperatures and some of the rises from warm temperatures or even vice versa. There is no way to know.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 22, 2024 7:42 pm

As Professor Thermos says in “Taken By Storm” written by Essex and McKitrick: “This is a global temperature statistic, but it is not a ‘temperature.'”

Reply to  Jim Masterson
April 24, 2024 4:54 am

Statistical descriptors are *NOT* data, they are what they are called. Descriptors of the actual data.

Reply to  Scarecrow Repair
April 23, 2024 5:57 am

It is much easier for the Earth to cool down than warm up, because it is surrounded by cold space.
The temp anomaly is large downwards, but small upwards
If the average temp is about 15 C, so 10 down, and you have ice all over the place.
WARM = GOOD

Someone
Reply to  Denis
April 22, 2024 12:37 pm

The entry into glaciation and return to interglacial depend of factors other than Milankovitch cycles only.

The initial entry into a glaciation is driven by a strong positive feedback of increasing albedo. As the Earth becomes colder, it reflects more and more. As it accumulates more ice, getting out of glaciation becomes more and more problematic, with a real danger of a complete frozen ball Earth.

The climate is unsuccessfully trying to get out of glaciation every 26k years, revealed by spikes on the descending trail. This is what makes it look like an erratic descent.

One mechanism proposed to explain the emergence out of glaciation are planetary scale dust storms that reduce ice albedo and facilitate melting. The dust storms are the result of the Earth desertification. The desertification is the result of plant life dying off, which is in turn the result of reduced CO2, dissolved and sequestered in cold oceans during glaciation.

So, the necessary degree of desertification is only reached about once in ~100k years. Once it is reached, the exit from glaciation is as fast as it can be.

In the end, it is possible that CO2 content does affect climate, not by GHE, but by a totally different mechanism.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Someone
April 23, 2024 8:43 am

One of these days I will get around to doing skin depth calculations (EM wave math) for ice versus water versus various forms of land.

Ice melts in bright sunlight even with temperatures below freezing.
Sublimation (dry air blowing over the ice) also reduces ice.

I remain undecided if the bond albedo hypothesis is the sole factor, primarily because the earth is not permanently an ice ball.

Someone
Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
April 24, 2024 9:07 am

Calculations always help.

Ice melting below freezing is probably dirty city ice.

If I recall correctly, the Earth has been an ice ball couple of times, and somehow got out of this. No law prevents this from happening again.

Since the output of the aging Sun is gradually increasing, any ice ball condition is bound to melt before the oceans eventually boil out.

Reply to  Denis
April 23, 2024 4:40 am

What’s with all the down votes? Denis articulates an accurate observation of the plot of Vostok data and asks an obvious question.

Warming appears to happen rapidly (relative to the cooling phase) over thousands (not hundreds) of years compared to the cooling which happens in a series of decreasing oscillations over tens of thousands of years before reversing to a warming phase. And he asks whether Milankovitch cycles—the favored explanation for the cooling and warming cycles—behave like that. “Everyone” provides a plausible explanation for other phenomena like albedo and dust that may be responsible for the uneven cooling that are influenced by the orbital changes of Milankovitch cycles.

Another question is why, in the proxy data going back millions of years, we don’t see the cyclical cooling and warming before about a million years ago? Is the data more coarse, temporally, so we can’t see changes over thousand-year periods? Or is something else happening that prevents the oscillation between glacial and interglacial periods like large-scale changes to ocean circulation? What are the theories?

April 22, 2024 11:07 am

What I find amazing is the lack of experimentation showing that increases in CO2 concentration will increase downwelling long-wave radiation. How hard can it be to conduct such an experiment? I’m sure we all remember the Bill Nie and Al Gore experiment, which AW debunked. If John Clauser can design and implement an experiment to prove quantum entanglement, surely a good physicist can design an experiment to prove higher CO2 concentrations change the DWLR at the surface. How about taking a football stadium and putting CO2 generators to work such that on the field CO2 levels rise to 800 ppm. Does anyone think the temperature on the field would change? I don’t.

antigtiff
Reply to  Nelson
April 22, 2024 1:54 pm

A football stadium cannot model what goes on in the atmosphere miles high….what goes on at the equator and at the poles….that’s why warmists like the CO2 story so much….you can’t build a physical model of the atmosphere and the ocean currents….just too large and complex.

Reply to  antigtiff
April 22, 2024 3:51 pm

Yet you can tell what happens at the surface. Start at 400 and run it as high as you can. There should be some change due to CO2. I suspect no one wants to obtain a grant that might show everything is whackadooodle.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 23, 2024 8:51 am

As the altitude increases air density decreases (one of the major factors in temperature versus altitude). 100 feet at ground level is equivalent to 10000 feet at 100 miles. It’s not quite linear due to gravity and other factors. Ideal gas law as updated is needed, too..

Reply to  Nelson
April 23, 2024 7:45 am

The first problem with your theoretical experiment is that there is no measurable downwelling longwave radiant power at the surface to begin with, so adding more CO2 isn’t likely to create some 🙂

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  stevekj
April 23, 2024 8:54 am

Not exactly true. IR affects valence electrons in CO2. When quantum probabilities determine a quantum (aka photon) of IR is emitted by the individual molecule, the probabilities of the exit vector are equal across the entire, roughly spherical electron cloud.

This scattering is why certain spectral bands are opaque for one gas or another.

Some of the outgoing IR will be returned. But the Cp is the primary reason the air warms due to increased CO2 (H2O being constant).

Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
April 24, 2024 5:45 am

Individual photons can travel in any direction, yes. But at a classical rather than a quantum scale, you cannot measure work being done from the colder atmosphere to the warmer surface. No one ever has.

Reply to  stevekj
April 24, 2024 10:47 am

In a classical sense, what happens when you have a block and on one side someone is pushing with a force of 10 and on an opposite side someone is pushing with a force of 5.

Is the person pushing at 5 doing work?

What is the net work?

How do you think the two body Stefan-Boltzmann equation works?

Remember, emission and absorption are TWO different processes.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 25, 2024 10:10 am

There is no such thing as “net” work, Jim, because work is defined in terms of energy, and that would require you to be able to distinguish between “gross” energy and “net” energy. I have never seen any such distinction in any definition that I was taught. What definitions do you have? If your cup of tea contains, say, 100 J of energy, how can you tell whether those are “net” joules or “gross” joules? Do you have any meter that can tell the difference?

Remember, energy is defined as the potential to do work. But just because you have energy, doesn’t mean you’re going to get work being done. The energy has to overcome resistance in order for work to happen. If the resistance exceeds the available energy, work will not be done, and the measurable state of the system (or universe) will not change.

Human muscles in your example are a little complicated, because you can exert a force with your muscle, and although you may not cause any change in the system or structure you are pressing against, your muscles are internally still using up energy to produce the force, and dissipating it as heat (I think… I’m not a biologist)

But in a mechanically simpler system with two springs pressing in opposite directions against your block, the spring with the greater spring potential would do work against the weaker one. That would result in energy being transferred from the stronger spring to the weaker, until equilibrium is achieved. Depending on what the block is sitting on, it will probably also result in some friction converting some of the spring potential to heat. The entropy of the system increases while this is happening, until it reaches a local maximum. (This is just plain “work”, not “net work” or “gross work”) The rate of energy being transferred from one spring to the other in the process of doing measurable work is what we call “power”.

The two-body S-B equation lets you calculate the rate of work being done from the higher energy potential to the lower one. (Never the other way around.) This rate depends on both potentials, of course. The lower potential forms the resistance that I mentioned earlier. If both potentials are the same, no work will be done, regardless of the amount of energy present. This constitutes the equilibrium scenario.

There are some caveats here in that radiant energy transfer as described by the S-B equation is not classified as “thermodynamic work”, but rather “Joule heating”, which is a separate thermodynamic “process”. But it follows all the same entropic rules as any other kind of thermodynamic work, because that’s just statistics doing its thing.

Reply to  stevekj
April 25, 2024 10:43 am

heat is energy. If you insert heat into the bottom of a coffee pot while it is losing heat to the surroundings through the sides and top then you have “gross” energy in, “gross” energy out, and a “net” energy.

The heat being inserted is doing work in heating the water in the coffee pot and the heat lost by the coffee pot is doing work on the surrounding atmosphere.

The bottom of the coffee pot also loses energy even while it is being heated. It’s not obvious but it does happen. If it didn’t you would have a perfect heat transfer which isn’t physically possible.

It’s something almost no one in climate science recognizes but the Earth loses more heat to space during the day than it does at night, merely by radiating at a higher rate as the daytime temps go up. So the Earth loses heat while it is being heated!

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 25, 2024 1:25 pm

Boltzmann Law says:

U/A = σT^4

To find the total radiation one needs to integrate this over time. I will guarantee the total radiated from the surface while being warmed by the sun is vastly more than radiated by the surface after the sun sets.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 27, 2024 1:23 pm

Technically no, Tim, heat is not the same as energy. Heat is defined as a flow, and energy is not.

Reply to  stevekj
April 27, 2024 1:46 pm

You are really confused. Heat can be a flow but it is not necessary. An object can have a temperature due to the energy within.

Bodies radiate due to heat, and that is a flow of energy, but not necessarily a “heat” flow. Gas can rise adiabatically so they don’t gain/lose energy but the gas can “lose heat”.

Energy and heat are two distinct things. Don’t directly conflate one with the other.

Reply to  stevekj
April 27, 2024 3:32 pm

Heat is thermal energy. If it wasn’t energy there would be nothing to transfer. Heat is certainly not mass, although mass plays a role in thermal energy (heat) transfer.

You are confusing the transfer of heat with what heat *is*.

Reply to  stevekj
April 25, 2024 12:43 pm

There is no such thing as “net” work, Jim, because work is defined in terms of energy, and that would require you to be able to distinguish between “gross” energy and “net” energy.

Work is defined as Force • Distance. Work and energy have the same units – N•m and 1 Joule = 1 N•m.

Work is a vector quantity meaning direction is important. Forces in exactly opposite directions do cancel.

Net work = J₁ – J₂, :when J ₁ > J₂, and when the vectors are in opposite directions.

Have you never studied physics and had to deal with friction? That is a force vector that subtracts (its direction or vector is opposite to the movement force)

If your cup of tea contains, say, 100 J of energy, how can you tell whether those are “net” joules or “gross” joules?

Stop with the strawman arrguments. The energy you are discussing here is potential energy, not work.

The two-body S-B equation lets you calculate the rate of work being done from the higher energy potential to the lower one.

You are equating heat radiation energy to work. That not an exact analogy because work has distance involved.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 27, 2024 1:29 pm

Force vectors do subtract, but work doesn’t. Work is not the same as force. The object with more energy (potential to do work) does work upon another object with less energy (less potential to do work) (if conditions allow, i.e. if nothing is blocking the work). This is just as true for opposing springs as it is for hotter and colder objects exchanging energy via Joule heating.

Two passive objects cannot both perform work on each other at the same time. That is nonsense. There is no “net”, because there is no “gross”.

The way this is taught in physics class is to think of energy and work as analogous to water in a pond, flowing down out of the pond along a sloping river channel. There is no “net” flow of water, there is no water flowing “uphill” that needs to be subtracted from the downhill flow.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 27, 2024 2:24 pm

“Work is not the same as force. The object with more energy (potential to do work) does work upon another object with less energy”

Work requires force to be exerted. It also requires distance to be involved. I can expend a ton of energy attempting to move something but never accomplish work if I can’t overcome friction which is pushing back.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 29, 2024 5:35 am

“Work requires force to be exerted.”

That is true, and I never said it didn’t. I only said that for a given entropy gradient, work is only going to be done in one direction at a time. Not two directions. There is no “net”.

Reply to  stevekj
April 29, 2024 8:08 am

https://ibb.co/0tntHmj

Do a Google on net force. Hundreds of references. Work is based on net force, not expenditure of energy.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 30, 2024 9:13 am

I have no problem with the concept of net force. I do have a problem with your claim of “net” work (and hence net power).

You said “Work is based on net force” – true

“, not expenditure of energy.”

Hmmm… but wait! You also said

“Energy, E, is transferred, or work is done, when a force, F, acts on an object”

So which is it? Is work based on energy expended (transferred), or not? You can’t have it both ways. And if you are going to claim that work is not based on expenditure of energy, then what exactly is it?

Reply to  stevekj
April 30, 2024 10:17 am

Hmmm… but wait! You also said

“Energy, E, is transferred, or work is done, when a force, F, acts on an object”

You made this up in your head. I did a search (find on this page) for:

  • work is done,
  • when a force,
  • acts on an object,

and could not find it anywhere.

Go back to school and take a calculus based physics course that teaches vectors as they relate to force.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
May 1, 2024 8:07 am

No, Jim, I didn’t make that up. You wrote it here: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/04/18/when-satellites-refute-the-climate-crisis-narratives-trust-the-science/#comment-3899720

It was a quote that you copied from metricssystem.net, so it’s not your own original wording, but that doesn’t change the fact that you posted it, presumably because you agree with it. (As you should, since it is correct.) I can’t help it if you can’t remember what you wrote from one thread to the next, barely a week later.

Since I’m not the one who is making self-contradictory statements, maybe you are the one who needs to go back to school?

Remember, I never said that forces aren’t vectors and can’t be added. That’s not the issue. The issue is that you wrote “What is the net work?” above (in this thread), and there is no such thing.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
May 3, 2024 5:37 am

What’s the matter, Jim? Did you run out of irrelevant, self-contradictory, and nonsensical “rebuttals” to my physics lesson? Have you figured out what “work” is yet, and why the concept of “net work” is meaningless?

I don’t even need to teach this to you – you taught it to yourself. And then you studiously ignored your own lesson. I therefore grade you a good teacher, but a poor student. Well, really you are only a good teacher by accident, so perhaps that doesn’t count…

Reply to  stevekj
May 3, 2024 9:33 am

Good ad hominem. Worthy of an outstanding troll.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
May 3, 2024 5:36 pm

No, Jim, I’m trying to teach you physics. What are you doing here? Besides insulting my intelligence? Have you resolved your self-contradiction yet?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
May 4, 2024 9:11 am

So having failed to defend your point, beclowned yourself with irrelevancies, gotten stuck in a contradiction, and then lied about it, the best you’ve got is… crickets? You’re going to run away like some sort of coward? Is that really all you are, Jim Gorman?

Reply to  stevekj
May 4, 2024 10:38 am

Keep it up clown! You do realize anyone reading your ad hominem attacks recognize who has the failing argument, right?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
May 5, 2024 9:08 am

What failing argument, Jim? Have you explained to your readers yet what “work” means? Does it require the expenditure of energy, or not? (you have so far answered both “yes” and “no” to this question, which is kind of odd, to put it mildly)

Reply to  Jim Gorman
May 5, 2024 4:59 pm

Since I think the reply window for this comment thread will be closed tomorrow, I’ll summarize the discussion so far for posterity.

1) Jim made some inane comment about “net work”
2) Steve pointed out that there is no such thing
3) Jim irrelevantly stated that forces are vectors and can be summed
4) Steve agreed, and then pointed out that this is not the issue under discussion, since force and work are not the same concept
5) Jim claimed that work is a consequence of a net force, and not of the expenditure of energy
6) Steve pointed out that this was a bizarre claim on its face, since Jim himself had just finished explaining the opposite in another comment a few days prior
7) Jim lied that he hadn’t said any such thing
8) Steve riposted that Jim had in fact said exactly that, and showed where
9) Jim then got very very quiet, and had nothing more of substance to add, merely resorting to calling Steve names and impugning Steve’s intelligence

So no, I am not even a little bit worried about being mistakenly judged the clown in this discussion, Jim. Certainly not by anyone of any intelligence whatsoever.

Nor am I acting even remotely trollish. Remember, trolls make deliberately false claims in order to wind people up. But the only one making false statements here is you. At least five of them, so far, by my count.

Someone
Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
April 24, 2024 9:26 am

Dear Sparta, please realize that electron clouds in molecules are not spherical, and that absorption/emission probabilities for specific transitions in specific molecules are not isotropic. Emission from an ensemble of randomly oriented molecules can be isotropic, but this is an entirely different reason.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Nelson
April 23, 2024 8:47 am

In your thought experiment, the temperature on the field would change, minutely, due to the specific heat (Cp) of CO2 is a bit different than air.

Extend your experiment to test H2O. You fill find as Tyndall and Foote found that 1% H20 has the same effective as 100% CO2 in altering the temperature.

April 22, 2024 11:09 am

Let’s assume for the sake of argument, that the dashed zero degree Temp Anomaly line on the Vostok ice core figure represents the optimal temperature for humans.

Now do simple calculus and determine the area under the curve for the positive anomalies in red/pink.

Next, do the same procedure to determine the area under the curve for the negative anomalies below the dashed line shown in white.

For the current distribution of molecules in the atmosphere, and the current distribution of continents across the globe, it appears that the climate has at least 40x more area under the curve as BEING TOO COLD IN RELATION TO THE OPTIMAL TEMPERATURE.

Further, the extreme temperature deviations from the zero degree line are much greater to the cold side!

The “climate risk” to humanity is much greater to the cold side than to the warm side.

Note – I personally believe the “0” anomaly is still colder than optimal for humans.

Reply to  pillageidiot
April 22, 2024 12:59 pm

I’ve seen one day since last October, here in Wokeachusetts, where it got over 70 F- and it only got to 71. Driving me and most others here crazy- all desperate for some warm days. Meanwhile, my state’s ruling junta claims we’re having a climate emergency and we better hurry up to net zero before the planet burns up. Of course net zero in Wokeachusetts will make the difference and save the planet. They think that! And few people here dare challenge that.

April 22, 2024 11:18 am

I read the Journals Science and Nature. This problem seems rampant throughout academic science

Scarecrow Repair
Reply to  MIke McHenry
April 22, 2024 11:39 am

I remember my astonishment when every year or so, they’d have another article about adding humidity or clouds to their models. It reminded me of nothing so much as those slobbering car reviews of BMWs and Corvettes which couldn’t be too enthusiastic about all the problems fixed from the previous models, all of which were never reported in any of the previous model reviews.

April 22, 2024 11:45 am

This focussed on tree rings,which are dead dodgy and almost always cherry oicked, as we scientists say. The general unreliability and misuse of different tree ring data is then smeared across the d18O, which is a proxy dominantly determined by what is being measured, not the general growing conditions that year, for that species, etc. FFS.

This is almost glossed over in the subsequent collective dismissal of other more sophistcated chemical proxies, because of tree ring wangling by deceitful charlatans like Mann and Marcott.

The reality is somewhat different, as a read of the literature on this proxy shows. It is also available from multiple cores, ocean sediments, peat bogs, etc. And can be alot mre preise. There is a paper here to read. I recommend it, also the many different papers that have measured d18O in ocean specimens, cave stalactites/mites, etc., as well as ice cores. Dozens, and dozens, and dozens….

I would recommed the triple core Kobashi paper from Greenland, Rosenthal et al from Makassa Straits. THere are many, many more that do not depend on the now inferior legacy proxy of tree rings,particular when the likes of Man and Marcott have clearly created a tree ring circus from them.

I may be wrong, if so please explain the facts and physics that prove this.

Improved oxygen isotope temperature calibrations for cosmopolitan benthic foraminifera
T.M. Marchitto a,b,, W.B. Curry c,1, J. Lynch-Stieglitz d, S.P. Bryan a,b, K.M. Cobb d, D.C. Lund
Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 130 (2014) 1–11 

Jeff Alberts
April 22, 2024 12:20 pm

Somewhat OT, but does anyone have a working link to searchable CRU emails? Nothing I’ve found works any more. None of the links at Climate Audit work, and the one on the WUWT Climategate page doesn’t either.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
April 22, 2024 12:24 pm

Also, if anyone has both archives, I’d like to host them on my server.

Jeff Alberts
April 22, 2024 12:23 pm

As usual, if you’re presented with a single line purporting to represent “global temperature”, just throw it away. It’s useless.

April 22, 2024 12:39 pm

As always, the most absurd aspect of the Mann hockey stick is the “error bars”: ±0.5 C in the Middle Ages! Totally unsupportable nonsense.

Reply to  karlomonte
April 22, 2024 1:05 pm

It claims that? Doesn’t such a claim have to be documented with statistics? You can’t just make it up. I’m no scientist but I thought to claim error bars you need a great deal of data and sophisticated analysis.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
April 22, 2024 1:43 pm

Just take a look at the first graph here, the light gray vertical bars. Then they somehow get better after the seventeenth century. And statistics can’t tell you the magnitude of all the errors (actually sources of uncertainty) in the tree ring-to-temperature conversion.

April 22, 2024 12:46 pm

 “What if something else changes the growth pattern [of tree] from time to time?”

You know, like atmospheric CO2 level…. which they say were much lower during most of the Holocene.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  bnice2000
April 23, 2024 8:58 am

Water vapor, N2 fertilizer, forest canopy (shading), sunlight (not temperature).
Funny how trees need things to grow beyond temperature.
Funny how trees grow north of the Arctic circle.

Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
April 23, 2024 9:01 pm

Additionally, water that provides nutrients impacts growth rates. Over long time periods, as soils develop, the trees may experience declines in nitrogen and phosphorus availability, perhaps mimicking climate change.

Reply to  Clyde Spencer
April 24, 2024 1:02 pm

I have watched hedgerows around here for 500 years. It is interesting to watch their evolution. When first planted they grow quickly. The weak trees are weeded out by shade and nutrient competition. Then as the hedgerows mature their new growth slows way down and the hedgerows become stagnant. That’s when insects begin to take their toll. Once again the weaker trees disappear and new, younger competitors show up, not always the species you want, junipers are start to appear. Each of these phases have an impact on the tree rings and growth – and stand apart from weather and climate.

How do you account for this when you have not data on which to base anything?

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 24, 2024 2:53 pm

I don’t think you are that much older than me! LOL

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 24, 2024 3:08 pm

Oopps! added an extra zero!

Bob
April 22, 2024 12:58 pm

Very nice.

April 22, 2024 1:08 pm

I sent a link to this video to many people here in Wokeachusetts- enviro groups, state enviro/climate officials, forestry people, etc. Of course nobody has responded. They can’t- I’m quite sure none have the slightest clue about any of the discussion in the video, one way or the other.

Someone
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
April 24, 2024 9:15 am

Do not bother, their paycheck depends on not having a clue, and not responding if they do.

Mr.
April 22, 2024 1:29 pm

The probity and the provenance of both proxy temperature ‘data’ and also the instrument-era readings are woefully inadequate for the purposes they’re being misused.

That GAT construct is utter nonsense.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Mr.
April 23, 2024 8:58 am

Funny how the Mann hockey stick perfectly connected to the satellite data.
What are the odds of that?

Someone
Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
April 24, 2024 9:17 am

Not arguing for hockey stick, but it is 100%. What is the chance of a discontinuity? It must connect within uncertainty.

April 22, 2024 2:58 pm

Great post. This essay on misuse broadly understandable by the layperson and is revealing of climate gods having feet of clay. The Jacoby-D’Arrigo author quote on the rationale behind weeding out of unsuitable samples of tree rings (they don’t show a hockeystick) should be saved in a collection for future study of the artless intellect of consensus climate stars. This would be second to Phil Jones’s reason for refusing to supply a data request, ‘because you only want to find something wrong with it!

Reply to  Gary Pearse
April 23, 2024 9:07 pm

Physicists, astronomers, and astrophysicists are still trying “to find something wrong with” Einstein’s work. The longer they keep trying to ‘break,’ it the stronger it becomes. It sounds like Jones doesn’t have much faith in his own work.

April 22, 2024 3:44 pm

My problem with these is the fact that no one knows what the baseline temperature was 1,000 or 10,000 years ago. Tree rings may give a good indication of ±2.5 based on the difference in widths, but I sincerely doubt they can have anything approaching a confident depiction of actual temperature. Showing a ∆T of ±2.5 65 degrees is a lot different than ±2.5 60 degrees. They don’t overlap.

That is one reason that the article pointed the lack of precision from using tree rings. Too many other things can cause changes.

I guess it is just my pet peeve that people equate ∆T to an actual temperature. It isn’t. It is one reason climate science gets away with saying there was no Medieval Warm Period. The growth rate may be small but the absolute temperature could be much warmer.

April 22, 2024 4:35 pm

Outside of the tropics, almost everybody has to live in heated houses, drive heated cars, and work in heated buildings.

Reply to  scvblwxq
April 23, 2024 1:03 am

80% of humanity live between the Equator and 40 deg North for a reason. Some of the rest live in Canada and N. Europe. Their climate will become seriouslt inhispitable in 2or3 thousand years more of this neo glacial period. At least Americans can go South. We N. Euopeans will have to re colonise the Mediteranean, as France The Riviera is about as far North as is habitable during glacial phases of the 100Ka cycle, as the cave painting in the Region and the last Neanderthals in Spain also suggest. You needed quality shelter in te South of France 23Ka BP when the ice on Manchester and Boston was a mile thick and that ice sheet lasted 25,000 years at the end of the last interglacial……… growing then shrinking. Check the gif files on this for a visual record.

Reply to  scvblwxq
April 23, 2024 4:27 am

That is why every time a Global Average Temperature Anomaly is quoted, the baseline temperature should be quoted also. Without knowing the baseline temperature, one can’t judge what is actually being felt.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 23, 2024 9:12 pm

And because ice has a defined melting point, the baseline temperature is important. That is, if Antarctica experiences a temperature increase of 50 deg C, nothing much will change if the starting temperature was -100 deg C.

April 22, 2024 4:50 pm

Wasn’t there some coding with comments in the Climate Gate files about a “Fudge Factor” in the coding?
If I recall correctly, random numbers (not admitted) would produce a “hockey stick”.

MarkW
April 22, 2024 4:52 pm

Trees have an optimum temperature for growth, whether the temperature increases or decreases from this optimum point, growth will decrease. Before you can determine whether an increase in growth means that temperatures are increasing, you first need to prove that temperatures are below this optimum temperature.
The same applies to water, when there is too little water, more water means more growth. However above a certain point, more water means less growth, and perhaps even death for trees.

Declaring more or less of anything, is always good or always bad, is bad science.

Reply to  MarkW
April 22, 2024 7:22 pm

What is the optimum temperature for a Birch tree from Sweden which grows faster, sets viable seed (which freely germinates on it’s own) and lives just as long in my backyard which is probably 10C and above higher average temp compared to Sweden?
The most important thing for trees (and their ability to make larger growth rings) is WATER. Trees grow equally well in a wide range of temps as long as it is warmer rather than colder than their native habitat.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Mike
April 23, 2024 9:01 am

Grist for the mill. Temperature affects water content. Warmer air can hold more water. Rain feeds the roots.

It is not down to a single parameter as the IPCC crowd likes to crow.

Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
April 23, 2024 9:17 pm

I think that what is needed is well-controlled experiments, with all the known variables, to develop multiple-regression models with a goal of minimizing the r^2 value for the equation. However, we still might not know the temperature well if there aren’t constraints on the other variables.

Mr Ed
April 22, 2024 6:55 pm

Very good video. Back 10yrs ago when I started to investigate the subject of climate
change I found online some interesting dendrochronology material from the some
sequoia tree samples that were removed and taken to the University of Arizona.
I think they were looking more at drought and rainfall in the rings and IIRC
there was a 300ish yr drought back 1K yrs ago. And again IIRC they were
able to cross check this with sediment samples and other dendro from
other sources. The lack of integrity revealed in this video in the
academic world by Mann and others is alarming, at least to me.

Sparta Nova 4
April 23, 2024 8:37 am

I wonder if the judge would have allowed this in the defamation case?

Sparta Nova 4
April 23, 2024 9:07 am

Back when Al Gore first promulgated his political Inconvenient Truth, I got curious.
I looked up the Milankovitch cycles. The first thing I noticed in the graphs is that the current interglacial has MORE ice than any of the past several cycles. Right now, all other things being equal, the planet has too much ice. This is obvious in the last chart in the article, if one equates temperature with ice.

April 23, 2024 10:05 am

In case anyone is interested, there is a newer proxy reconstruction than Marcott’s that covers the Holocene. Kaufman, 2020, expanded the proxy database and utilizes many more proxies than the marine dominated alkanones. The database contains 1319 records, including 157 from the Southern Hemisphere. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-020-0445-3