Ford Reports Devastating Losses Thanks to Electric Vehicle Gamble

Essay by Eric Worrall

h/t Dr. Willie Soon; Ford claims supply chain issues are preventing them from satisfying strong market demand for electric vehicles.

Ford Reports Devastating Losses Thanks to Electric Vehicle Gamble

by Star News Staff | May 3, 2022
by Thomas Catenacci

Major U.S. automaker Ford blamed its sizable investment in electric vehicle (EV) company Rivian for its dramatic revenue decline in the first quarter of 2022.

Ford reported revenue of $34.5 billion between January and March, a 5% decline relative to the same period in 2021, and a net loss of $3.1 billion, according to the company’s earnings report released Wednesday. The Detroit automaker said its large investment in Rivian accounted for $5.4 billion in losses during the first quarter.

Rivian has posted massive profit losses of its own and its share price has plummeted nearly 70% over the last six months. The value of Ford’s roughly 102 million Rivian shares has fallen from about $17.5 billion to $3.2 billion since November.

However, Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe recently suggested that the supply chain for EV batteries is still far behind where it needs to be to achieve many of the goals pushed by Western governments, the WSJ reported.

Read more: https://thestarnewsnetwork.com/2022/05/03/ford-reports-devastating-losses-thanks-to-electric-vehicle-gamble/

The official Ford Statement on their financial loss is available here.

Let us hope US Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg has fully completed his maternity leave, so he can fix those Rivian EV battery supply chain issues.

Of course, Buttigieg might need to magic up a whole lot more Lithium, but I’m sure Buttigieg and Biden have a plan for solving the Lithium shortage, right?

Correction (EW): Corrected the first paragraph, an older draft was accidentally published which incorrectly indicated the problem was low demand for EVs.

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Mr.
May 5, 2022 6:05 pm

Rational observers of this kind of business decision making used to call it –

“pissing in the soup”

Willem post
Reply to  Mr.
May 5, 2022 6:32 pm

The federal government provides subsidies each time you piss In your soup.
MAGA when?

Bryan A
Reply to  Willem post
May 5, 2022 10:34 pm

So the problem isn’t that no one wants the hyper expensive practically useless mostly 40 mile limited EVs or Hybrids…
The problem is supply chain China issues. China is about the only country mining the materials needed to make the batteries spontaneously combustible power packs

Spetzer86
Reply to  Bryan A
May 6, 2022 4:32 am

China and those kids in the Congo. Not to mention the environmental damage refining all these metals is causing.

Peter Muller
Reply to  Bryan A
May 6, 2022 6:52 am

Actually, Australia, is the world’s largest miner of lithium followed by Chile, then China (USGS Mineral Commodity Summaries, 2021). It’s just that China does most of the refining of lithium ores in usable material for battery manufacture

Richard Page
Reply to  Peter Muller
May 6, 2022 9:07 am

Iirc all of the lithium mined in Australia has to be sent to China to be refined, which does seem rather short-sighted (unless you’re Chinese!). I also seem to remember that some or all of the Australian lithium mines are at least part owned by Chinese firms. Aside from a geographical issue, that does rather just reinforce the idea of China having control of the international lithium trade.

Steve Browne
Reply to  Peter Muller
May 6, 2022 6:23 pm

Australia may be the largest miner and China the largest refiner of lithium. However the ‘Lithium Triangle’ or ABC countries of Argentina, Bolivia, and Chile have the largest lithium reserves in the world, dwarfing the total reserves of the rest of the world by far.

Mike
Reply to  Bryan A
May 6, 2022 2:07 pm

Most electrics have over 200 miles range, some over 400.

Steve Browne
Reply to  Mike
May 6, 2022 7:10 pm

But without batteries they have zero range.

Bryan A
Reply to  Mike
May 6, 2022 7:12 pm

Most EVs take Hours to recharge 12 hours per 120 miles of range at home current.
Most EVs cost 3 – 5 times their fossil counterparts.
Mustang $27k / Mustang Mach E $47k – $67k 16 hour recharge
Ford F150 $30k – $45k / Ford Lightning $45k – $75k 14 hour recharge
Tesla S $95k
Tesla E $45k (you can’t get the $35k model)
Tesla X $120k
Tesla Y $75k
Toyota Corolla $20k

Bryan A
Reply to  Mike
May 6, 2022 10:39 pm

Lucid Air Dream Edition (Range) — up to 520 miles. …$169,000
Tesla Model S — up to 405 miles. …$99,990
Mercedes EQS — 350 miles. …$102,310
Tesla Model 3 Long Range — 358 miles. …$55,990
Tesla Model X — 348 miles. …$114,990
Model Y Long Range — 330 miles. …$62,990
GMC Hummer EV1 — 329 miles. …$110,595
BMW iX xDrive 50 — 324 miles. …$83,200

Sure, there are MANY UNAFFORDABLE EVs out there with a fair range AND 24 hour recharge time at regular household current

Anyone got an extra.$100k lying around or can afford a 25 year car payment of $879 per month
Most Auto loans of this magnitude would be 10 year terms and so would have a payment of almost $1200 on a $100,000 loan

willem post
Reply to  Willem post
May 6, 2022 4:51 am

The climate-fighting federal government, i.e., you, is providing subsidies for electric school and transit buses, that have a tendency to catch fire and blow up and burn for days,

The climate fighting federal government, i.e., you, is providing subsidies for electric vehicles that are grossly less capable of performance than gasoline vehicles.

Have fun reading these articles, which describe the impacts of various follies.

https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/battery-system-capital-costs-losses-and-aging

https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/chevy-bolt-catches-fire-while-charging-on-driveway-in-vermont

https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/electric-bus-systems-likely-not-cost-effective-in-vermont-at

https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/battery-powered-transit-bus-explodes-while-parked-at-a-street

Reply to  willem post
May 9, 2022 11:13 am

And exctaly what does a burning bus battery add to the enviorment?

Carbon Bigfoot
Reply to  Mr.
May 6, 2022 4:16 am

My 1998 F-150 six banger stick,4X4, regular gas fueled was on of the best vehicles I ever owned. Over 20MPG and put 120,000 miles on it before I gave it to a nephew who put another 60K before he trade it. Ford owned the inexpensive contractor truck market in the USA but lost their way when they pussified the F-150 so that persons identified as women could drive them.
I now drive a Toyota Tacoma off-road,stick,six banger 4X4. You can’t call me a shiftless bastard.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Carbon Bigfoot
May 6, 2022 5:49 am

Where in Pete’s name did you find a standard transmission Toyota truck? None in our Toyota dealer’s lot! Did you have to special order it?

I agree with you about the Ford trucks. Oh for the days of uncarpeted floors, bench seats, and no lift kits that you could clean out with a hose and could get into without a stool or running boards!!

Carbon Bigfoot
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 6, 2022 7:03 am

Tim I bought my Toyota Tacoma in 2019 from a dealer near Allentown, PA. I don’t know where you live so I have no recommendation. Two of the Tacomas were available at the time with standard transmissions, i.e., the Off-Road Model and an upgrade version, 17″ wheels and high air intake for water crossings.
I paid $38K but since I traded by gas hog automatic 2016 Tundra with 30K mi. my out-of-pocket was only $8K. My Tacoma gets 17/21 but it is not broken in yet so I hope to do better. Good searching.

DavidC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 9, 2022 10:56 am

I had to special order mine. I ordered it in May 2021. It came in late October, but was upgraded to the 2022 model. No long bed option for the manual transmission/king cab/4×4 Off Road model. Oddly enough, the Toyota website isn’t listing the manual option for it anymore.

paul
Reply to  Carbon Bigfoot
May 6, 2022 7:06 pm

I learned to drive w/a 49 Ford stepside 3 sp stick in the late 50’s. Loved that truck
I owned 2 F150 pickups, both 3 on the tree. 70’s vintage, good trucks
I also had an 1991 F250 4×4. This one had a 5 speed trans that I hated with a passion.1st gear was a creeper gear that had to be shifted as soon as it was moving & if I tried to take off in 2nd gear I had to ride the clutch to get a smooth take off which really sucked in traffic, in addition to that there was a clutch slave cylinder inside the bellhousing. If the slave went bad there was no clutch & the trans needed to be pulled to replace the slave.Now driving down the road with no clutch ain’t much of a problem, just need the right revs to shift, but starting & stopping was a problem.
had to start it in gear & it was moving right now & stopping I had to kick it outa gear & coast to where I wanted to stop while hoping I guessed right. First time the slave went out me & a friend replaced it in his barn in the middle of winter, the second time it was going bad I traded it off. I swore off Fords after that. I now drive a stick shift Honda SUV.

Galen Clark
Reply to  Carbon Bigfoot
May 9, 2022 9:00 am

Fantastic!

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Mr.
May 6, 2022 9:28 am

An example is discussed in Robert C Townsends Up the Organization.

Stephen Philbrick
Reply to  jorgekafkazar
May 17, 2022 4:12 pm

Loved that book.

May 5, 2022 6:14 pm

“useless electric vehicles hardly anybody wants “

According to Ford, their problem was that they couldn’t meet the demand:

“The capability of this business is much stronger than what we were able to provide in the quarter,” Ford CFO John Lawler said Wednesday,
 

LdB
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 5, 2022 7:37 pm

Still it begs the question if the demand was really there because it does sound a bit like the “dog ate my homework” excuse. In this case we could have sold more and made a profit if only we could have built them and wave hands frantically.

Bryan A
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 5, 2022 10:38 pm

Musk had no problems selling EVs that hadn’t yet been manufactured let alone delivered to showrooms so what’s Ford’s problem?

Gerry, England
Reply to  Bryan A
May 6, 2022 1:43 am

There isn’t an endless supply of virtue-signalling idiots willing to pay for something that doesn’t exist.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Gerry, England
May 6, 2022 2:32 am

Ford doesn’t have the same cachet as Tesla for virtue signallers, in the UK Ford is/was the manufacturer of choice for the great unwashed.

Michael in Dublin
Reply to  Bryan A
May 6, 2022 4:11 am

But Musk himself recognizes that at present his EVs target the rich as they are not affordable by the average earner.

Richard Page
Reply to  Bryan A
May 6, 2022 9:10 am

There is the 1974 citicar (later 1979 commutacar) debacle to show us a clear message on the saleability (or not) of EV’s.

Meab
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 6, 2022 8:37 am

Demand for what? Ford just started to manufacture the F150 electric lightning truck a few weeks ago. While it looks promising as a urban shopping mall hauler, the long range version (300 miles) is stunningly expensive ($65,000+). The standard model (which is only available to order in $50,000 trim right now) has a pathetic range of 179 miles.

Their only other EV Ford sells is the Mustang Mach 1 SUV. While it’s selling well, it sells at a small fraction of the rate that Teslas do. Battery EVs still have less than 5% of the market for new vehicles..

Mike
Reply to  Meab
May 6, 2022 2:09 pm

I think they are selling every Mach 1 they can make.

meab
Reply to  Mike
May 6, 2022 3:00 pm

I made a mistake, it’s a Mach E. Ford is selling every one they make and plan to triple their production rate in 2023 by starting to add production of the Mach E in Mexico. If they do that, they’ll still be well less than half of Tesla’s model Y sales.

2021 Sales

Tesla Model Y 193,000
Tesla Model 3 107,000
Mach E 27,000
Chevy Bolt 24,000

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  LdB
May 6, 2022 1:19 am

Driving home from Tennessee on Monday, I saw a car carrier toting a Rivian truck – and had no idea that it was a Ford product, never having heard of the Rivian in the first place.

The Rivian R1T was Motor Trend’s Truck of the Year for 2021, and is quite impressive. Car and Driver tested one, and found that it delivered on its claim of 0 to 60 in 3.3 seconds (a real Tesla takeoff!), what with a blazing 835 HP all-wheel drive power train. Highway range was found to be 220 miles, and highway mileage 35 MPGe. The stats are here https://www.caranddriver.com/rivian/r1t.

I thought Ford was going to come out with an electric F-150, but apparently this is their offering. At a price (as tested) of $76,875 (a full size spare adds $800, and off-road capability $2,000), I think it’s a market loser against a 3.3 liter V-6 F-150 XLT, which goes for $46,359.

cerescokid
Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
May 6, 2022 2:07 am

For the time being the price disparity of all EVs against traditional vehicles is going to be a drawback.
I love it that Biden touts EV sales to save on higher gas prices… that he created. I save at the pump, but oh, wait, my monthly car payment just went through the roof. Would we expect any other kind of logic?

ResourceGuy
Reply to  cerescokid
May 6, 2022 2:46 pm

And the insurance payment?

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
May 6, 2022 5:36 am
  • Ford owns stock in Rivian (a lot). Rivian’s biggest problem is that when you try towing the range drops dramatically. From what I hear, towing a trailer in the mountains requires a stop every 10 miles or so to recharge.
Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
May 6, 2022 5:49 am

Ouch—how useless is this?

Bryan A
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
May 6, 2022 6:25 am

Just make sure to have a 50kW Gas or Diesel generator on the trailer

Thomas Gasloli
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
May 6, 2022 10:12 am

An electric pickup is only “useful” for people who use a pick like a sedan. Haul or tow and you will be lucky to make it out if the subdivision.

Simon
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
May 7, 2022 3:13 am

 From what I hear, towing a trailer in the mountains requires a stop every 10 miles or so to recharge.”
You hear wrong…..

Mark Stewart
Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
May 6, 2022 6:49 am

Very curious if that range includes running A/C and/or heat. And how long to charge on 110V 10A plug in (I only have 100 amps at my house and underground lines so upgrading current capacity is not really an option). Of course it’s all just mental masturbation since the electricity to charge them still has to be generated by fossil fuels creating more plant food (i.e. evil CO2).

Meab
Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
May 6, 2022 9:02 am

Rivian isn’t Ford and Ford has come out with their own F150 EV.

There’s a YouTube video of a Rivian towing a 6,000 lb trailer. It made 60 miles at 70 mph and then had to stop to charge for almost an hour. That’s about a minute of charging for every minute spent towing at freeway speeds – counting the time pulling off the freeway, disconnecting and reconnecting the trailer ( almost all chargers are not designed to pull a trailer through), and hooking up the charger it’s more than a minute.

I routinely towed my 5,000 lb trailer with my old Chevy Silverado pickup 500 miles per day. I got 200 miles between 6 or 7 minute fill-ups. This trip, which takes me 9 hours with my gasoline pickup, would take 15 or 16 hours with the Rivian. Non-starter.

ResourceGuy
Reply to  LdB
May 6, 2022 2:45 pm

Let’s not lose sight of the C-word that greens do everyday. Remember, GM lost money on every Volt produced.

TimTheToolMan
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 6, 2022 3:00 pm

“This was an old draft”

And showed a clear bias on your part.

BobM
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 5, 2022 6:31 pm

Is that why Rivian lost over half its value (“valued at $5.1 billion on March 31, down from $10.6 billion at the end of 2021”)? Because they couldn’t meet demand? What does Rivian make, anyway? And who cares? Basically nobody.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  BobM
May 5, 2022 6:50 pm

That’s what hit me in the face as well. How did Ford *lose* so much money on things they couldn’t even make? Did they pay for all their material to build the vehicles up front and then not receive the material from the suppliers? Did they sue the suppliers?

clipe
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 5, 2022 7:38 pm

I suspect green tax breaks.

John Thomas
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 6, 2022 5:24 am

I have not looked at Ford’s financial statements, but maybe Ford invested in Rivian instead of just having Rivian as a supplier. If it were an investment in a publicly-owned Rivian, a significant loss in Rivian stock value would be shown on Ford’s financials as an earnings statement loss.

OweninGA
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 6, 2022 6:13 am

I suspect the “losses” are all on paper. They bought into a stock position at a high price and because the company is still in early development, the realities of the supply chain didn’t match the pie-in-the-sky sales pitch. If all you are producing is limited run demonstration models, the investors are eventually going to get tired of unwarranted cheerleading and sell. Thus Ford’s balance sheet got hit with the unrealized losses on the Rivian investment.

Then there is the chip shortage caused by China’s stupid zero-COVID policy. All these high-end electrics and others need chips to control every aspect of the vehicle. All the car companies are complaining about that one. Some are going so far as selling cars with modules missing with a promise to add them when they get made.

Unless some battery miracle comes about, Ford will likely have to live with this Rivian loss as I doubt they will take off – though they may muddle along for quite a while, I don’t think they will make the original sales pitch..

Robert Hanson
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 6, 2022 12:51 pm

I guess you missed this in the post above:

The value of Ford’s roughly 102 million Rivian shares has fallen from about $17.5 billion to $3.2 billion since November.

Now who could have seen that coming?

michael hart
Reply to  BobM
May 5, 2022 7:51 pm

“What does Rivian make, anyway?”

Golf carts, apparently. I didn’t comment to that effect immediately, because I assumed from the photo that WUWT was having a little joke at their expense.

Bryan A
Reply to  michael hart
May 5, 2022 10:42 pm

Rivian on WIKI
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivian
And their website
https://www.rivian.com/
Apparently they make an SUV and a Pickup

Craig from Oz
Reply to  Bryan A
May 5, 2022 11:07 pm

Had a look.

  • That is one UGLY vehicle and looks like a student modelling project
  • so… electric vehicle designed for weekend offroad adventures? Hope you packed the long charging cord
  • ‘Preserving the natural world. Forever‘ Well… as slogans go the idea of freezing all growth and change in prefect status…? Maybe not what they actually meant.
  • Offroad adventures. Yes, cause driving offroad is eco friendly. Guess only e-drivers are allowed to go camping in the Rivian universe.
renbutler
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
May 6, 2022 11:11 am

You should apologize for using Google in the first place. There are other search engines not in China’s pocket.

Bryan A
Reply to  renbutler
May 6, 2022 2:10 pm

Perhaps Musk could Buy Out Google

tom hewitt
Reply to  Bryan A
May 7, 2022 5:19 am

Why would Rivian even make an SUV? The SUV category was initiated to avoid the CAFE fleet fuel economy standard mandate, replacing the station wagon class that was included in passenger car requirements. Electric station wagons wouldn’t be held to CAFE standards.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 5, 2022 7:01 pm

You have mixed up “demand” (i.e., what consumers want to buy) with factory orders of vehicle retailers.

Last year, U. S. consumer demand was over 96% for ICE vehicles.

I doubt Ford said that. They certainly do have a strong motive (keep Ford stock price from falling further) to greatly exaggerate about demand for a product they now desperately need to move, but, to say something so obviously wrong in their official disclosures would open themselves up to ridicule and charges of misfeasance-level ignorance.

Last edited 4 months ago by Janice Moore
Tim Gorman
Reply to  Janice Moore
May 5, 2022 7:31 pm

It would give shareholders very usable ammunition for suing Ford for abrogating their fiduciary responsibilities and causing a loss of shareholder value.

Chris Hanley
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 5, 2022 9:03 pm

The FMC share price has certainly tumbled in the past three months, whatever that means.
In any case if demand is high for EVs due to a free market well and good, that’s how it’s supposed to work, not by government diktat as for instance in the UK where the sale of ICE vehicles will be banned after a certain date ( I’m not sure what that is currently ).

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Chris Hanley
May 6, 2022 5:47 am

FMC is not Ford Motor Company (F). FMC is in agricultural sciences.

https://www.fmc.com/en/company/about-fmc

Brad-DXT
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 5, 2022 9:35 pm

That’s according to Ford. I think they are useless and don’t want one.

I would consider them useful for commuting if it wasn’t that pesky catching on fire that can’t be put out thingy.
I’m waiting on the Mr. Fusion powered vehicle before I switch from ICE.

Doonman
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 5, 2022 9:52 pm

According to Ford, their problem is that the value of Ford’s roughly 102 million Rivian shares has fallen from about $17.5 billion to $3.2 billion since November.

observa
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 5, 2022 11:46 pm

According to Ford, their problem was that they couldn’t meet the demand:

That would no doubt be quite true Nick as it’s the same deal for VAG globally-
You can forget about buying an electric VW, Audi or Porsche in 2022 (msn.com)

You can’t buy a Tesla Model 3 or Y in Australia this year either unless you already have one on order and even Toyota’s hybrid RAV4 has 12M wait list. Now while supply shortages and in particular chip shortages are affecting ICEs the same there’s no disguising lithium battery resource shortages to satiate what’s really the top 5% of the car market. Elon has picked that global niche market superbly and left the rest in his wake but for the vast majority they place deposits on hybrid Toyotas or grab whatever ICEs they can-
VFACTS April 2022: Market slowdown as stock shortages continue – Drive

Where’s your Rivian or Cybertruck etc they can order?
Toyota LandCruiser 70 Series sold out for two and a half years – Drive

George T
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 6, 2022 5:01 am

I have absolutely no interest (and I am not alone in saying) in an EV for a multitude of reasons: upfront cost to own too expensive, ROI is poor (considering the need to replace battery pack), their range is limited, they perform poorly in cold weather, you cannot jump an EV and these spontaneous combustion events and the thought of my house burning down is quite disquieting. Moreover, once I acknowledge I own an EV, my homeowners insurance will increase, unless of course I park it outside and away from the house.

This EV madness is wrongheaded and will result in disaster for these businesses that don’t understand their consumer.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  George T
May 6, 2022 1:01 pm

I’m assuming there is massive panic at Volvo, which plans to go totally EV by 2030. Which means their new ICE cars, which should be in advance planning by now, are getting zero development right now.

BobM
May 5, 2022 6:14 pm

Buttigig is on “maternity leave”???? O.M.G.

Willem post
Reply to  BobM
May 5, 2022 6:33 pm

Maturity leave!

RevJay4
Reply to  Willem post
May 6, 2022 5:49 am

Maturity? Like that’ll ever happen to any of the miscreants in the Brandon/0zero administration. They are all playing a part and quite poorly at that. Not difficult to see the strings of the puppeteers.

TEWS_Pilot
Reply to  BobM
May 5, 2022 6:46 pm

Have you not seen him “breastfeeding” the baby with the strap-on milk dispensers? He is the “wife/mother” in their perverted cohabitation.

mikewaite
Reply to  TEWS_Pilot
May 6, 2022 12:20 am

Can’t be true , that is a truly disgusting image.

mikewaite
Reply to  mikewaite
May 6, 2022 12:22 am

Oh and since we have wandered off topic for a few seconds . is it my aged eyes deceiving me or has the ENSO meter dropped a bit?

cerescokid
Reply to  mikewaite
May 6, 2022 2:21 am

Believe it. I’ve seen it plenty of times. America has become a free range insane asylum. Oregon just passed a law requiring menstrual products in public schools restrooms. Boys are competing in girls school sports. Teachers are teaching gender issues to kindergartners. This has more truth than you can believe.

blob:https://wattsupwiththat.com/070c59ea-8e20-4f23-87d6-ca9428aa9f8d

cerescokid
Reply to  cerescokid
May 6, 2022 2:24 am

Link doesn’t work. It was a picture of a pregnant woman asking her doctor if she was going to have a boy or girl. The physician said “Let’s let the kindergarten teacher decide.”

Scissor
Reply to  BobM
May 5, 2022 6:46 pm

I suppose he’s been birthing brown children who are his spitting image.

Old Man Winter
May 5, 2022 6:15 pm

Go woke, go broke!

niceguy
Reply to  Old Man Winter
May 5, 2022 7:21 pm

Is Toyota full hybrid technology “woke”?

Mr.
Reply to  niceguy
May 5, 2022 7:26 pm

No.
Pragmatic and useful for those whose needs are fitting.

Craig from Oz
Reply to  Mr.
May 5, 2022 11:16 pm

You can say that for anything.

I need a RANDOM RANDOM RANDOM. Ergo the product that fills that role is pragmatic and useful. This doesn’t make the product useful for you or justify it being forced into a market that many not support it.

A canoe is pragmatic and useful if you have a need to travel casually on water for large proportions of your day. If you don’t live near water it is a very awkward object to carry around.

Your statement is correct, but in no means a debate winner.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  niceguy
May 6, 2022 1:32 am

It’s a whole lot more “BeeEss wokery” than you think. The % gains it added to
efficiency pale in comparison to the gains going from 6-18mpg to 30+ to 50+
that occurred without it. There also was a lot less pollution involved which
Greens conveniently now ignore. HYPOCRITES!!! A lot of glitz for a lot of MY
$$$!!!

See my response to your “Tesla woke” question below:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/05/ford-reports-devastating-losses-thanks-to-electric-vehicle-gamble/#comment-3511701

Last edited 4 months ago by Old Man Winter
TEWS_Pilot
May 5, 2022 6:43 pm

The demand for EVs from the average car buyer has definitely plummeted with inflation going exponential and the infrastructure for charging EVs still in its infancy. People don’t have the money and are unwilling to invest $60-80,000 in a risky EV proposition that will have to replace their old reliable much less expensive to operate longer range workhorse ICE vehicle.

Janice Moore
Reply to  TEWS_Pilot
May 5, 2022 6:47 pm

Correct. Over 96% of vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2021 were NOT EV’s.

niceguy
Reply to  TEWS_Pilot
May 5, 2022 8:03 pm

I have never seen as many EV in Paris!
For “full size cars”, almost only Teslas.
But almost all are the famous Model 3, the one you can get for less than 40 k thanks to the bonus!!! (Thank you tax payers.)

OTOH many many cars are hybrids and often run on electric in Paris, at least part time: you can have a car pass by you clearly in electric and then send you a surprising gasoline odor because it just started the ICE motor.

Typically these cars will start in electric first, which means you don’t hear them before they move, unlike the usually very noisy ICE startup of old cars.
Also, Toyotas don’t even have a gear box and inherently can’t do reverse on ICE, they reverse on electric only; but parking is typically a dangerous time for people around. You have to change you hearing habits.

Chris Hanley
Reply to  niceguy
May 5, 2022 9:25 pm

In terms of CO2 emissions, if that’s your thing, EVs make sense in France that derives most of its electricity from nuclear, also Norway that is mostly on hydro.
Not in countries largely dependent on fossil fuels for electricity such as the US and indeed most of the world, and likely to remain that way indefinitely.

Last edited 4 months ago by Chris Hanley
Mac
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 6, 2022 5:39 am

I was staying in a hotel in Albuquerque New Mexico a while back. There was a guy who drove a Chevy Bolt from Topanga Canyon California (just up the coast from Santa Monica) to the hotel. I asked how long it took him. 4 days! He had to stop to charge with 110V. I used to live in Topanga and drove to Albuq to see my mother. Trip was ~ 750 miles. I drove it in ~ 13 hours.

RevJay4
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 6, 2022 6:17 am

Very possibly if you were driving an EV, you wouldn’t have made it at all. Everything on the EV being run off the batteries, including the heater, would’ve depleted the charge rather quickly. Keep in mind that batteries do not do well in extreme weather conditions.

Simon
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 7, 2022 2:19 pm

But Eric, that drive was a while ago and technology moves on…

Last edited 4 months ago by Simon
Ben Vorlich
Reply to  niceguy
May 6, 2022 4:48 am

Probably a result of the Crit’Air restrictions which have banned older vehicles, especially diesels from Paris and large city centres. Categories 0 to 5. Full EV fall into category 0, a modern small hatchback category 1

From the Web
Paris has a ZFE-m (zone à faibles émissions mobilité = low emission zone) in place.
Phase 4 from 1 June 2021: 
Crit’Air Sticker 3 for Paris including the ring road and Bois de Boulogne and Bois de Vincennes and all the communes in Greater Paris. From now on Paris and Greater Paris have the same standards.
Daily from 08:00 – 20:00:  Heavy duty vehicles 

  • Need to have at least Crit’Air sticker 3For diesel heavy duty vehicles this means at least Euro 5, registered from 1 October 2009
  • For petrol or gas heavy duty vehicles, Euro 3 can still enter

Monday to Friday from 08:00 – 20:00:   All other vehicles

  • Need to have at least Crit’Air sticker 3For diesel cars and light duty vans this means at least Euro 4, registered from 1 January 2006
  • For petrol or gas cars or light duty vans, Euro 2 can still enter
  • For motorcycles this means at least Euro 2, first registered from 1 July 2004

Phase 5 from 1 July 2022:
Crit’Air Sticker 2
Daily from 08:00 – 20:00:  Heavy duty vehicles 

  • Need to have at least Crit’Air sticker 2For diesel heavy duty vehicles this means at least Euro 6, registered from 1 January 2014
  • For petrol or gas heavy duty vehicles this means at least Euro 5, registered from 1 October 2009

Monday to Friday from 08:00 – 20:00:  All other vehicles

  • Need to have at least Crit’Air sticker 2For diesel cars and light duty vans this means at least Euro 5, registered from 1 January 2011
  • For petrol or gas cars or light duty vans this means at least Euro 4, registered from 1 January 2006
  • For motorcycles this means Euro 3, first registered from 1 January 2007

 
Phase 5 From 1 January 2024: 
Diesel ban for all vehicles: Crit’Air sticker 1
Daily from 08:00 – 20:00:  Heavy duty vehicles 

  • Need to have at least Crit’Air sticker 1
  • For petrol or gas heavy duty vehicles this means at least Euro 6, registered from 1 January 2014

Monday to Friday 08:00 – 20:00:  All other vehicles

  • All vehicles need at least Crit’Air sticker 1No diesel vehicles may enter
  • For petrol or gas cars or light duty vans this means at least Euro 5, registered from 1 January 2011
  • For motorcycles and mopeds this means Euro 4, first registered from 1 January 2007 for motorcycles, first registered from 1 January 2018 for mopeds

 
From 2030 onward
Daily from 08:00 – 20:00:  Heavy duty vehicles 

  • Need to have at least Crit’Air sticker green – no more petrol or diesel vehicles are allowed to circulate!

Monday to Friday 08:00 – 20:00:  All other vehicles

  • Need to have at least Crit’Air sticker green – no more petrol or diesel vehicles are allowed to circulate!

Only electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are allowed to circulate
Need to Register
There are stickers called “air quality certificates” (Certificats qualité de l’air) which are mandatory for French and foreign vehicles.
For vehicles registered in France, the French LEZ stickers can be bought here.
Stickers for foreign vehicles can be bought in English, French, German or Spanish. These stickers can be bought by those outside France. Please allow enough time for delivery.
Please note: Buying stickers from some websites can cost up to 5 times the price, so check carefully, and use official sales websites.
Go to ‘National legal framework’ on this page to find out which sticker your vehicle will receive

niceguy
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
May 6, 2022 8:51 pm

It must be noted that for decades France encouraged car makers to go to diesel technology for all power ranges, even the smallest.
The reason was to have specific French tech and to have a market for the overproduced diesel distillate fraction.

Of course once the market was full of diesel cars, the political power began to notice that not enough oil could turn into diesel and there was too few regular consumers in France so the regular gas fraction had to be exported.

Also, fine particulates the new green issue. Many people say that diesel cars kill 42000 French people each year with air pollution (attributed to PM10). Pure preposterous nonsense but it’s repeated ad nauseum.

Of course the PM10 thing is bunk as the real metro workers doing physical work on the railway in the most PM concentrated zones, don’t seem to die by the tens.

Even unions admit they die less than pop average, attributing that deaths deficit to the physical nature of the work. Let’s say it’s plausible… within limits.

For outside PM10 to kill 42000 per year (total not just some type of cars) you would have a toxicity so high that even the fittest workers ever wouldn’t reach retirement age in most cases!

(Fittest workers effect never prevented coal miners or asbestos workers from getting specific cancers.)

Mark D
Reply to  niceguy
May 6, 2022 6:46 am

I have taken to hitting the emergency flasher button when backing out of a parking spot and yet idiots (often staring at cellphones) INSIST on walking behind me be it my silent Chevy Volt, ICE Subaru, somewhat noisy pickup truck, or forty foot motor home.
No situational awareness whatsoever.
ARRRGGGGHHHH!

TonyG
Reply to  Mark D
May 6, 2022 9:00 am

No situational awareness whatsoever.

Remember that video of the guy running through a rail car with a gun in CA and not one person looked up from their phone?

Mark D
Reply to  TonyG
May 6, 2022 10:22 am

I missed that one LOL

2hotel9
May 5, 2022 6:46 pm

Go woke, go broke.

niceguy
Reply to  2hotel9
May 5, 2022 7:41 pm

How “woke” is Tesla?

TEWS_Pilot
Reply to  niceguy
May 5, 2022 8:27 pm

Elon Musk Twitter: Tesla CEO blasts woke culture in …Elon Musk blasts woke culture in controversial tweet. Elon Musk has continued his tirade against woke culture and political correctness, sharing a cheeky diagram that’s inflamed some followers.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/social/elon-musk-blasts-woke-culture-in-controversial-tweet/news-story/fb128efab02667448a39a267f258fe41

Janice Moore
Reply to  TEWS_Pilot
May 6, 2022 12:54 pm
Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
May 6, 2022 1:14 pm

comment image

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
May 6, 2022 1:16 pm

Here, er, rather, BELOW 😑 is the swipewright image Musk used. 🙂

Old Man Winter
Reply to  niceguy
May 5, 2022 11:41 pm

The man or the car?

Old Man Winter
Reply to  niceguy
May 6, 2022 1:01 am

There’s $Ts of criminal cash- aka subsidies- the whole “green industry”
pilfered from the public for a totally unnecessary industry, that without
it, wouldn’t even exist. In 1979, I took an alternate energy class with 20+
thechy types- using real equations & facts- that covered the whole gamut of
everything “green”. IIRC, the only viable sources were nuclear fission, hydro,
geothermal, with geo being the only less used tech. None of the rest of the
“green” crap could’ve made it on its own merits. PERIOD!!! The Western
capitalist/oligopolist culture had worked pretty well up until then with the
exception of not having used fuel injection. They eventually developed better
transmissions, plastics & design as well as using more aluminum to get much,
much better mpg.

Back in the day when 16k micro p’s were the rage & assembly languages had
4k (yes, all 4096 bytes) working memory, cars- like the Pinto with the exploding
gas tank feature- were already getting much, much better gas mileage than
several years earlier. Of the older US cars, those with 6s & small V-8s got the
best @ 18 mpg whereas the large block V-8s & pickups got 6-10 mpg. One area
conventional cars never adopted was storing NRG lost in braking & stopping.
With bigger chips & better control circuitry, they may have been able to use
mechanical & compressed air NRG storage as options to the much, much, much
smaller batteries than EVs use. When oil prices fell in ’85, the extra cost for
storage probably wasn’t worth it as car size grew & SUVs took over.

2hotel9
Reply to  niceguy
May 6, 2022 2:54 am

Not very, only rich white people are driving them.

Tom Halla
May 5, 2022 6:53 pm

Schadenfreude. Failure to push back on the greens makes it Ford’s fault.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Tom Halla
May 6, 2022 5:52 am

The Ford family in charge of the company is a bunch of greenies with zero business sense.

dk_
May 5, 2022 7:03 pm

have a plan for solving the Lithium shortage,

Of Course: elimination of privately owned vehicles, to be replaced by public transportation, pedal powered, supplied via a belt-and-road “loan.”

TEWS_Pilot
May 5, 2022 7:08 pm

Does Ford really think it is going to survive and even make huge profits selling an Electric version of the YUGO?

https://youtu.be/MqTKZgEW8pM

markl
May 5, 2022 7:25 pm

ESG ….. lose if you don’t comply and lose if you do comply. The only difference in success between the two choices is you control one.

michael hart
May 5, 2022 7:45 pm

 “I’m sure Buttigieg and Biden have a plan for solving the Lithium shortage, right?”
Nice alliteration. It conjures up Beavis and Butthead.

If they have their way, Lithium demand as a potent antipsychotic will also increase.

Gordon A. Dressler
May 5, 2022 7:49 pm

“Let us hope US Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg has fully completed his maternity leave, so he can fix those Rivian EV battery supply chain issues.”

Actually, let’s hope not. It is not the job of the US Government to go around “fixing” the problems the certain corporations find themselves in, largely as a result of their own business decisions.

Then again, Ford, Inc. may be playing the “I’m-too-big-to-let-fail” card that worked so well for financial institutions back in 2008 for shaking loose taxpayer monetary assistance.

Eric, was your above comment meant as a tongue-in-cheek one?

Editor
May 5, 2022 8:07 pm

“the supply chain for EV batteries is still far behind where it needs to be to achieve many of the goals pushed by Western governments”.

Note: Western governments, not customer demand.

TEWS_Pilot
May 5, 2022 8:31 pm

This disaster is just involving automobiles. Wait until the aircraft industry and ships get into the act.

Meanwhile,…..

comment image

observa
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 6, 2022 5:26 am

Whatever they’ll need plenty of Nick’s green steel to drive it all-
Wind turbine makers struggle to find pricing power (msn.com)

We cannot price and we cannot do things we don’t know of,


Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 6, 2022 6:53 am

Plus the fact that of every 100 gallons of hydrogen in an aircraft’s fuel tanks, only 25 will be burned to generate propulsion. The remaining 75 gallons dissipate uselessly. They are carried as dead weight.

Truthbknown
May 5, 2022 8:34 pm

Get woke… This economy is about to go into free fall!

dk_
May 5, 2022 8:40 pm

I note that today, Rivian’s stock plummetted (along with most others) even after securing $1.5 Billion subsidies from the state of Georgia. With the subject article, does this mean that Ford has the Musk EV / Steyer Wind Energy business formula pretty much nailed down? Do Georgia, Ford, and Rivian now have a green indulgence for past and future sins?

Dennis
May 5, 2022 10:34 pm

The golden rule of sales and marketing is let markets choose winners and losers on merit, most consumers will not pay premium price for an inferior product, in this example a vehicle with electric motor and batteries competing with a vehicle with an internal combustion engine and liquid fuel.

What is EV advantage for the average consumer apart from zero exhaust emissions but in most countries achieved with electricity mostly generated using fossil fuels, the internal combustion engine does that more efficiently.

Mr.
Reply to  Dennis
May 5, 2022 11:15 pm

The 5% of the market for EV sales could be ascribed to novelty / statement / indulgence purchases by those who have the means.

Second vehicles in many many cases.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Mr.
May 6, 2022 10:00 am

In other circumstances, 5% represents “the lunatic fringe.”

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Dennis
May 6, 2022 3:53 am

There are lots of places EV’s make sense. Golf carts, wheelchairs, forklifts, riding lawnmowers, etc.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Dennis
May 6, 2022 5:58 am

With pickup trucks, the utility of the vehicle is very important. Electric pickups have very little utility because of towing constraints. The Rivian truck with no load on flat land looks like a great truck. Put some weight in the back and hitch up a trailer and suddenly you have full-blown range anxiety.

I don’t know what Rivian sales are like now, but in the early days of production all vehicles went to employees. Not a very good way to make money.

bigoilbob
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
May 6, 2022 12:58 pm

Agree. If you need to use a pickup as a pickup for anything other than local deliveries, the practicality goes away. A better solution is to market to folks to buy based on more than second vehicle suburban driveway macho appeal. That leaves about half of the pickup market that could be diverted to sensible e and hybrid vehicles.

Mike
Reply to  Dennis
May 6, 2022 2:20 pm

EVs require almost zero maintenance – no oil changes, transmission fluid changes, spark plugs, water pumps, alternators, coolant, etc. Their brakes last over 200k miles due to regenerative braking. And you don’t pay for gas. Some EVs (Chevy Bolt, base Telsa Model 3) have a cheaper 5 year total cost of operation than similar gas vehicles. That includes the purchase price.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Mike
May 6, 2022 4:55 pm

I’m sorry ,but any mechanic will argue with you! Alternators fail all the time from bearing failures and shorted stators, so do electric motors. That’s how so many motor rewind shops stay in business. The electric motors driving the EV’s are no different! Lot’s of big trucks use exhaust braking which is similar to regen braking but their brakes still wear out! EV’s are also heavier than ICE vehicles meaning tires wear out more quickly.

Heating in an EV has to be electric heating. Need I remind you that electric heating in residences fail all the time?

You are spouting dogma, not reality. There truly aren’t enough EV’s on the road to adequately judge their maintenance costs over time!

Kit P
Reply to  Mike
May 6, 2022 5:12 pm

BS! The correct comparison for a EV is a zero emission pair of shoes or bicycle. When I could walk or ride a bike, I bought an old ’89 Ford Ranger because I did not need a nice car. But if I needed to and did on occasion, drive across country.

I sold it for what I paid for it with with 275k miles on the odometer.

There was a time when earning a living required a very reliable transportation. I retired my ’89 extended cab Toyota PU to just towing my boat at 300k miles. It was replaced with a 2-seat ’93 Honda that got 36 mpg.

I have recently changed the oil on my 40 year old boat, a ’98 motorhome with 200k on the diesel, ’95 Del Sol (190k miles), ’07 Tundra, 2010 Sienna, 2011 RAV4, and 2014 Sienna.

So you are comparing an EV that is not practical to put many miles on, to putting children in car seats then piling in the parents and grandparents.

It is like comparing a step stool to a 20 foot extension ladder.

Dennis
May 5, 2022 11:13 pm

Battery electric verses 4-stroke internal combustion petrol engine to power a concrete saw for heavy duty building site work.

* Cost of electric power saw plus batteries including reserves on charge much higher price.
* Recharging less convenient on a busy work site than adding petrol to the tank.

Editor
May 6, 2022 1:31 am

Eric writes, “Let us hope US Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg has fully completed his maternity leave, so he can fix those Rivian EV battery supply chain issues.”

Ha ha ha!!!

Buttigieg is as effective at curing transportation issues as Kamala Harris is at curing the immigration crisis.

Regards,
Bob

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Bob Tisdale
May 6, 2022 6:00 am

He’ll get to it as soon as he cleans up all the racist roads.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/7/when-highways-are-racist/

Matthew Sykes
May 6, 2022 2:05 am

Go woke, go broke.

William Haas
May 6, 2022 2:10 am

According to our transportation secretary, our supply problems are caused by a lack of child care. I doubt that the Biden Administration will be able to train enough baby sitters to solve the problem any time soon. It is the ignorance and incompetence of our President and his administration that has caused one disaster after another. While Biden is still in office, I do not expect things to change.

RevJay4
Reply to  William Haas
May 6, 2022 6:41 am

It is planned ignorance and incompetence. That’s my take on it all. The puppeteers behind the scenes are using the Brandon and his merry band of misfits to deflect from whatever else is going on behind the curtain. Case in point. Disinformation board has been around for a while, just now seeing it take center stage due to appointment of absolute nutjob(the administration is full of ’em) to directorship.
Shiny things detract from true agenda actions.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  RevJay4
May 6, 2022 11:47 am

Definitely. The Resident is the lightning rod intended to attract all the loathng, disgust, and anger of the “electorate.” He will be the sacrificial old goat to be disposed of when it suits “them,” probably just before the 2024 “election.”

Editor
May 6, 2022 4:26 am

Good post Eric,
Whether their problems are supply or demand, it doesn’t matter if they lost money, even with absurdly high government subsidies that make no sense. Calling EVs “emissionless” or “environmentally friendly” is absurd. the batteries require exotic metals, only last 10 years, and most electricity requires emissions. Even the cement used to mount windmills requires tons of CO2 emissions. The economics, even with subsidies, aren’t there. A $20,000 Toyota is worth $15,000 after 10 years, a $60,000 Tesla is worth nothing after ten years without $12,000 in new batteries.

To really screw up requires government mandates and regulations!

michel
Reply to  Andy May
May 6, 2022 5:21 am

This is quite true all of it. But that is not how you win the argument. You will win the argument by explaining the details of what a total US vehicle parc will look like once its done, and what it will cost to get there, and how long it will take.

As an example, a particular busy highway service station. What happens when refuel times rise from 5 minutes to an hour? When refuelling is necessary after a half or one third of the current number of miles?

The way to win these arguments is, get into the specifics of the proposals. Mostly you find the advocates have not thought about the specifics. But when you start explaining them, they do mostly stop and think.

Like Francis Menton’s posts about the amount of storage intermittency requires. That’s the way to attack this rush over the cliff that governments seem to be bent on.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  Andy May
May 6, 2022 6:59 am

Andy:

I think your figure for Tesla battery life is pessimistic. Keeping in mind that driving/charging patterns and operating environment will have a significant effect, actual data from Tesla owners suggests that a typical car will still have more than 90% of original battery capacity after 200,000 miles (admittedly not a lot of data points there). I’ve read nothing credible to support a claim that Tesla owners will need to replace their batteries after 10 years, although I believe that is the warrantee period.

Other makers may use batteries with different expected lifetimes and we have much less owner data for them.

What is quite probably true is that Tesla owners will need to hang onto their vehicles for at least 200,000 miles in order to realize enough fuel and maintenance savings to justify the higher purchase price.

A quick search on carmax for used Teslas shows a total of 29 available nationally; most under 30K miles and the max being 38K miles. A check with autotrader shows 321 available nationally and a quick scan shows some with mileage in the 40-60K range, although quite a few with less than 10K miles. I’m speculating here but this may mean that Tesla owners either like their vehicles and hang onto them, or become dissatisfied fairly quickly and dump them.

Editor
Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
May 6, 2022 1:35 pm

Alan,
Only time will tell. EVs are too new to have any good statistics. Both age and storage conditions affect battery life, and the extended tests you rely on are intensive tests in a laboratory. Real life testing suggests that that battery life will be much shorter than 200,000 miles on average. Further, the danger of dangerous fires increases with battery age. I’m not hopeful for Teslas or any other EV.

TimTheToolMan
Reply to  Andy May
May 6, 2022 3:16 pm

Tesla are aiming for million mile batteries. What real life testing suggests much shorter than 200k miles for them? And what do you define as too old to keep? 90% charge retention? Less?

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Andy May
May 6, 2022 3:34 pm

The *real* indicator will be insurance rates for EV’s. If the insurance rates are higher than for ICE vehicles it will indicate that there are really problems with EV’s.

Donald
May 6, 2022 4:34 am

lets get real, everyone and i do mean everyone i talk to ,is not, NEVER going to buy a electric car or truck. Too much government control.

Donald
May 6, 2022 4:36 am

what crap, why don’t you admit , nobody buying them. Actually, i hope you don’t sell anything.

michel
May 6, 2022 5:14 am

The problem is always the same, its a matter of logic.

The argument goes, Climate Catastrophe coming, have to reduce emissions, EVs or renewables will do it, so lets go.

There is then a furious debate about whether there really is a climate catastrophe coming. And whether EVs or renewables reduce emissions.

In fact however all that is completely irrelevant. There is no justification for proposing solutions to a problem unless they can be implemented.

Surely its now obvious that we cannot convert the grid to wind and solar, no matter how lovely a thing that would be to do, because we have an insoluble problem, no way to manage intermittency.

Similarly we have no way to replace all ICE cars and trucks with EVs. However lovely a thing it might be to do, could it be done, it cannot be done.

Similarly we cannot (as in the UK Net-Zero proposal) convert everyone to heat pumps running off this impossible wind and solar driven grid.

The thing to focus on in this argument is: stop proposing things that are impossible or unaffordable. That is an argument you can win. The other stuff degenerates into apocalyptic hysteria in no time.

I would say, similarly, we cannot convert the grid to fusion power, either. It would be lovely if we could, but we can’t, we don’t know how. So while you’re at it, explain to your local alarmist, also don’t tell us fusion is essential to do by 2030, because Climate Crisis. Because nice though it would be, we don’t know how to do that.

RevJay4
Reply to  michel
May 6, 2022 6:53 am

Thank you. Logic. What a beautiful thing. Prepare to be met with harsh words for using it. I find that when using it with the alarmists, the conversation ends abruptly, usually with shouting and accusations of being some sort of disbeliever. I luv it.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  RevJay4
May 6, 2022 1:25 pm

Logic is racist. It’s a white supremacist plot to dominate POC. Why would you even mention such a disgusting idea. /sarc

Mac
May 6, 2022 5:45 am

The CEO of General Motors has also stated they are going full electric. I think there my be some rethink on this in the future.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Mac
May 6, 2022 6:48 am

Especially as the shareholders watch their stock values plummet!

Duane
May 6, 2022 5:56 am

Nice trick there, ignoring the elephant in the room, or as they say in the news media, you “buried the lede”, which is:

1) Ford EVs, not this subsidiary, are massively popular, such that Ford has had to stop taking new orders for its Mustang Mach E, and such that Ford now plans to triple its production of that vehicle. Similarly, extreme demand for the F-150 Lightning EV is so high Ford has committed to doubling its production to 150 thousand units a year, with 200 thousand paid reservations in hand today.

2) ALL automakers are extremely strapped with COVID-induced supply chain restrictions.

3) All manufacturers of virtually everything are extremely strapped with COVID induced supply chain restrictions.

HELOOOO OUT THERE! Are you a robot and simply unaware of life in 2022?

SMH .. you guys just slay me with your stupid anti-EV propaganda. EVs are the vehicles of the future – within 20 years nobody will be making mass produced IC cars and light trucks .. better get used to it, and it has little to do with warmunism .. an EV is simply practical and clean and easy to maintain. And there are various versions of EVs that will be part of the market besides the plug-in EV … including FCVs and hybrids.

IanE
Reply to  Duane
May 6, 2022 6:29 am

HELOOOO OUT THERE! Are you a robot and simply unaware of life in 2022?

Reply to  Duane
May 6, 2022 6:47 am

Duane
That’s a nice conjuring trick – pretend that supply issues for e-vehicles are only covid related.
Nice try, nice lie, but we know the truth which is that lithium, nickel, palladium etc. are already running out with prices skyrocketing, and the great electrification is only just beginning. Supposedly.

https://fortune.com/2022/04/22/lithium-expert-says-supply-is-not-enough-to-keep-up-with-demand/amp/

What Khmer Vert governments such as the U.K. have mandated – an end to ICE vehicles within a decade or so – is a simple physical impossibility. This is NOT market choice but government-mandated fiat. An they know it to be impossible, it’s not a bug but a feature. Feudalism. Motorised transport only for the wealthy elite.

I guess you could always ask Russia nicely for some nickel and palladium. Or China for lithium or cobalt. You see, to its credit the American administration has had the foresight in the last few decades to cultivate good relations with countries that supply strategically important minerals, such as Russia and China. Why – things are now so friendly that Americans are going on hunting safari holidays in Ukraine.

Last edited 4 months ago by Phil Salmon
RevJay4
Reply to  Duane
May 6, 2022 6:57 am

Meds? Either a change of said Rx or ? Reality is that there is just so much of the basic components available to make EVs. Lithium for the batteries comes to mind. Doubtful your predictions will gain much traction in the real world. Ain’t gonna happen.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Duane
May 6, 2022 7:39 am

In a good year Ford will sell almost 1,000,000 pickups. That has fallen off due to the covid recession in the past couple of years.

So Ford is going to boost EV pickups to be about 15% of its total fleet? How long will it take for ICE pickups to be replaced by EV’s at that rate (hint: NEVER)!

observa
Reply to  Duane
May 6, 2022 8:12 am

Here duane let me help you with currently Australia’s cheapest EV vs ICE comparo-
How long before an electric car starts paying off? 2022 MG ZS EV vs ZS petrol running costs compared – Car News | CarsGuide
However, it will take a full 16 years for the price difference to be made up, so it will come down to how long you plan on keeping your car.

Now bear in mind nearly 9 out of 10 buyers have to pay at least 5% interest on a car loan at present and you work that cost out annually on the price difference. Yeah I know the Gummint will print the money for them so they can all drive EVs. How’s that working out at present when they printed money for everyone to sit on their ass through Covid? OTOH the nice Gummint could take a share in all their EVs so nobody misses out-
Labor announces ‘shared-equity’ scheme for homebuyers ahead of Federal Election – ABC News
We’re not children living off mummy and daddy here sonny.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Duane
May 6, 2022 11:57 am

EVs are the vehicles of the future . . . and always will be.

Doonman
Reply to  Duane
May 6, 2022 12:06 pm

There is not enough electricity available to run business, industry and households and charge all electric fleets as well.

No problem you say, just install solar and batteries and everything will be fine.

Until you stop and realize that you are charging batteries to charge batteries. Which is ridiculous. I want quick, reliable motion, not to become my own redundant power company.

michel
Reply to  Doonman
May 7, 2022 12:47 am

This is the fundamental problem. The policy consists of inconsistent elements.

One, moving the grid to wind and solar. But there is no solution to intermittency, and this means a huge project of wind farm building, so it will not be done in any reasonable time, so this means reducing demand.

As we have seen in the latest UK proposals to use smart meters to turn off EV charging and heat pump use when demand is too high.

Two is at the same time doubling demand by moving everyone to EVs and heat pumps. Where, again, there are not enough batteries for us all to move to EVs and there are not enough heat pumps or installers to put in the heat pumps, and even if there were, the houses in the UK are not sufficiently insulated to use them properly.

So what will happen if this craziness is really tried? I don’t know. But its clear what the choices are.

Either you commit to a reliable grid with about double present capacity, in which case you can move to heat pumps and EVs, with quite a lot of upheaval, but its at least possible, if hugely expensive and disruptive.

If you take this fork you have to abandon wind and solar, other than as ornamental add-ons to a basically conventional and nuclear grid.

Or you could go ahead with the power generation project, in which case you will have to allow ICE vehicles and gas and oil fired heating.

If you pursue both aims regardless, you will end up with a grid which cannot support the heat pumps and the EVs, and will have made other power sources, such as gas or oil, unlawful. The result of this will be a sharp reduction in the number of cars, and lots of homes without heat.

There is simply no way around this, but just because its idiotic does not mean it will not be tried. Anyone living in the UK should make sure they buy a new ICE car in 2028 or so, and drive it into the ground. It should last about 15 years, which is time for sanity to return.

They should also replace their oil fired boiler, if they live in the country, in 2023 or 2024. Yes, that’s about a year or two away! Do your best to find an installer who will supply one that is not condensing, and it should last 15 or more years, which again is time for sanity to return.

If you have a gas boiler, which most of the UK does, you are in better shape. It will probably be possible to replace it with like for like for another 15 years.

And finally, if you live in the country, start looking at generators. Because the era of reliable power, if the government really does go ahead with this, is over.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
May 6, 2022 7:13 am

Ford seems to be searching for a strategy in general, not just EVs.

In a Feb 24 statement:

Ford CEO Jim Farley said that while there is “a lot of waste” in the group’s legacy operations, he has no plans to spin-off the group’s growing electric vehicle business.

But in a March 2 article it was reported:

Ford Motor Company says it’s reorganizing its operations by splitting its gas-powered vehicles and its electric vehicles into two different divisions – a move intended to strengthen operations and take full advantage of the accelerating growth of the EV market.

That’s a rather quick turnaround from “no plans”.

I saw another article which I cannot now find to the effect that Ford was laying engineers off in the electric vehicle division. This seems inconsistent with the claim that supply shortages rather than customer demand are the problem.

ResourceGuy
May 6, 2022 7:19 am

Next up are bailouts from your wallet.

littlepeaks
May 6, 2022 7:22 am

I wonder what the auto union is saying about this. This can’t bode well for their members.

DaveinCalgary
May 6, 2022 8:05 am

Nobody mentioned the fact that an automaker can either have an increasing percentage of its fleet be emission free or pay a penalty or offset to a company like Tesla. Half of Tesla’s profit came from these credits. Between the two choices, it might make some sense to lose money building a niche product rather than lose money signing a cheque over to Tesla.
So there is an incentive to produce some electric vehicles depending on how draconian the rules are in various regions.

Outside of government mandates, there is a niche market as evidenced by Ford having a 200,000 paid backlog on its new electric F150. Regardless of whether its a good truck or bad, that’s not insignificant. I’ve needed trucks to work in -40 off the electrical grid towing large loads so electric is a non starter. Similar story for many Canadian working trucks but there are obviously hundreds of thousands of truck users that don’t need the independence and flexibility of ICE.

Gregory Woods
May 6, 2022 9:36 am

Real men don’t drive EV pickups…

May 6, 2022 10:54 am

Rivian has posted massive profit losses of its own…”

What is a profit loss? Particularly in the case of Rivian where it has never posted a profit. unless you consider mining investor cash as “profit” Bernie Madoff-style.

6CA7
May 6, 2022 2:11 pm

“However, Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe recently suggested that the supply chain for EV batteries is still far behind where it needs to be to achieve many of the goals pushed by Western governments, the WSJ reported.”

It’s govenment quota’s they are shooting for, not market demand in a free market. Rivian let the cat out of the bag right there.

Ford is in clutches of miseducated, woke, young, executives instead of real car guys like so many companies. Back in the 50’s they hired a group out of Harvard called the Wizz Kids. Ford started advertizing “safety” while GM kept advertizing speed and style. It took Lee Iacoca and the Mustang to rescue the company.

ResourceGuy
May 6, 2022 2:55 pm

Vote as directed in November and get a student debt waiver and a bonus if you buy a union-made EV on new credit. Need a new mortgage also? And can you claim climate change impact in your low-income neighborhood or incentivized minority business? Just vote responsibly and remember the rules of the game–potato heads.

Shoki Kaneda
May 6, 2022 3:30 pm

Get woke, go broke.

David Rice
May 6, 2022 3:44 pm

Yeah, one of those Rivian p/u trucks passed me yesterday on I-64: being hauled by a tilt-back wrecker!! Never heard of them before yesterday…

Greg
May 6, 2022 4:03 pm

The captains of industry.

Steve Browne
May 6, 2022 6:16 pm

Live by the battery, die by the battery.

observa
May 6, 2022 6:18 pm

Batteries are getting cheaper. So why aren’t electric vehicles? | Canada’s National Observer: News & Analysis

It’s quite true the price of lithium batteries came down per kW with technical development and production economies of scale (battery gigafactories) but now they’ve hit battery resource constraints and rising prices even as EVs try to satisfy the lux end of the market. Sure ICE prices are rising but EV prices even more so with their expensive batteries. There’s nowhere for EVs to go now to satisfy the wet dream of EVs for the masses and the notion that taxpayers can bankroll that is an infantile fallacy of composition mindset.

Just a tip for the EV wet dreamers. If EVs are too expensive for all the green devotees convinced about changing the weather then perhaps allow them to dispense with all the personal safety Regs and drive cheap third world EVs. You know… tradeoff their own personal safety for the sake of the grandkiddies.

Ewin Barnett
May 7, 2022 3:00 am

The rush to EVs is shaping up to be the typical expensive debacle that comes when ideology seeks to push society where it has not decided to go. All the major players in the EV push seem to be forgetting to consult those who actually buy cars with their own money. I for one want a lot more discussion about the cost and timeline for the 3x upsizing the entire electric grid will require so all these Unicorn EVs can be charged when the owner needs a charge as compared to when the utility wants to allow it. What is the total cost of trashing 200+ million cars and replacing them with EVs? Where will all the copper, cobalt, lithium and other minerals come from? I think too many EV advocates don’t want to have these discussions because they already know the bad news.

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