Elon Musk Delivers CPAP Machines to Hospitals, Rather than Ventilators

Guest “too fracking funny for words” by David Middleton

Remember this?

Elon Musk says he’ll have 1,200 ventilators ready to deliver this week
By Mike Wall – Space.com Senior Writer 15 days ago

Well, that was fast.

Last Wednesday (March 18), SpaceX and Tesla chief Elon Musk offered to start manufacturing ventilators for coronavirus patients if need be. Medical practitioners and politicians urged him to do so, stressing that many hospitals around the country will have a shortage of breathing machines as the pandemic progresses.

[…]

Live Science

Well…

The “Ventilators” in Tesla’s Big Coronavirus Donation Were Actually BPAP Machines
The machines shown in a photo appear to be devices for treating sleep apnea.

John Bromels
Apr 2, 2020 at 4:38PM

Tesla‘s (NASDAQ:TSLA) CEO Elon Musk stunned the country on March 23 when he announced he had — as if by magic — procured 1,255 ventilators from China, and was shipping them to medical centers in the U.S. 

But according to a story first reported by the Financial Times, it seems that the “ventilators” Musk promised aren’t the type of ventilators that are most needed…and in fact aren’t usually called “ventilators” at all! They’re actually BPAP machines, typically used to treat sleep apnea.

[…]

On Wednesday, a group called NYC Health + Hospitals tweeted a photo of their Tesla “ventilator” shipment, which clearly showed a BPAP machine, a type of non-invasive ventilator. Non-invasive ventilators like BPAP and CPAP machines push pressurized air into the lungs from outside the body. They aren’t life-support devices, and usually cost less than $1,000.

[…]

The Motley Fool
THIS CPAP MACHINE IS SIMILAR TO THE BPAP MACHINES PROCURED BY TESLA. IT FORCES AIR INTO THE LUNGS THROUGH AN EXTERNAL MASK AS OPPOSED TO AN INTERNAL TUBE, TECHNICALLY MAKING IT A TYPE OF “NON-INVASIVE” VENTILATOR. IMAGE SOURCE: GETTY IMAGES. The Motley Fool

I wear a CPAP. It works great on sleep apnea (snoring). I also have asthma. When my allergies are acting up and aggravating the asthma, I can’t wear the CPAP. A CPAP generally just covers your nose. A BiPAP or BPAP covers both the nose and mouth. A BPAP is probably better than nothing, but it appears that we no longer need just “better than nothing.”

Speaking of Tesla

Tesla to cut salaries, furlough workers as COVID-19 shutdowns expected to last until May 4
Kirsten Korosec 11:17 pm CDT • April 7, 2020

Tesla  will suspend production at its U.S. factories until at least May 4 due to the COVID-19 pandemic, prompting the company to cut pay for salaried employees between 10% and 30% and furlough workers, according to an internal email sent Tuesday night and viewed by TechCrunch.

Pay cuts for salaried employees — which ranges from 30% for vice presidents, 20% for director-level executives and 10% for the remaining workforce — is expected to be in place until the end of the second quarter, according to the email. The salary cuts and furloughs will begin April 13. Employees who cannot work from home and have not been assigned critical onsite positions will be furloughed until May 4, according to the email.

“While we are continuing to keep only minimum critical operations running, we expect to resume normal production at our U.S. facilities on May 4, barring any significant changes,” the email from Tesla’s human resources department head Valerie Workman. “Until that time, it is important we take action to ensure we remain on track to achieve our long-term plans.”

[…]

TechCrunch

$20-30/bbl oil might actually be worse for Tesla than it is for oil companies, particularly those that have solid hedge positions. And it’s probably worse for them than ChiCom-19… Oil and gasoline will still be cheap on May4.

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Joe
April 9, 2020 2:18 am

There are a very large number of these machines which can connect to oxygen regulators.
There are also a number of them which have oximeter inputs, and will change their breathing profile based on that input.
And that is definitely better than nothing at all if literally zero medical-grade ventilators are available.

TG McCoy
Reply to  Joe
April 9, 2020 9:14 am

New reports that seem to indicate that he Virus has a bit of DNA that is parasite related-this is from Dr. Didier Rauolt’s study-it attacks Hemoglobin so the red blood cells cannot carry oxygen as well. This explains why cloroquinine works-it attacks the Parasite component-and allows the
Hemoglobin to do its job. I will do a search for more info I have read this on a couple of different sites. More Oxygen is the key not just ventilation- Musk may be right..

Henry Pool
Reply to  TG McCoy
April 9, 2020 11:08 am

The COVID-19 virus does not have any DNA. It is an RNA based virus.

Robert of Texas
Reply to  Henry Pool
April 9, 2020 12:28 pm

To be clear, there are different types of RNA viruses and one of them – the retrovirus – does invoke the production of DNA based on it’s RNA. The SARS-CoV-2 virus is NOT a retrovirus and does not provoke the production of viral DNA.

SARS-CoV-2 is a positive sense, single stranded RNA virus (so a Group IV RNA type virus). Positive sense means it’s RNA is directly translated into proteins without having to be converted. Single strand means it is more likely to produce and contain mutations, most of which are harmful to the virus, so it has to produce a lot of copies and very quickly to be successful.

I have not heard that the SARS-CoV-2 virus is attacking red blood cells, only that the inflammation and fluids that it causes to be produced in the lungs slows down the transfer of gases (likely both Oxygen and Carbon dioxide). If it were attacking red blood patients would be detected as being anemic – a rather straightforward test.

Hydroxychloroquine likely works by causing more zinc to be taken in by human cells. It is known that zinc can interrupt the production of certain viral proteins that can prevent or at least slow down the viral replication. The zinc is usually present in the fluids surrounding cells, but its uptake is carefully regulated by the cell, so it is in short supply inside the cell where it is needed.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  Robert of Texas
April 10, 2020 5:37 am

That’s why I’have increased my oyster consumption quite a bit. Three ounces of the delightful little bivalve mollusks deliver about 7 times the minimum daily requirement of zinc. A dozen Bluepoints, Pemaquids, Malpeques, or even Kumamotos provides from 28 to about 250 times the minimum daily requirement, while being delicious. No other food comes close.

Andyd
April 9, 2020 2:19 am

I know the Musk-hate is strong around here, but do a little research…

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-elon-musk-cpap-ventilator-coronavirus/

marlene
Reply to  Andyd
April 9, 2020 2:35 am

I’ll research this globalists until the day I did and STILL HATE HIM! Don’t you see what he did?? The Gates cabal does NOT want to treat people. They want the fake pandemic to run until they get their vaccines mandated.

Stephen Lindsey
Reply to  marlene
April 9, 2020 2:49 am

Did you forget to take your tablets this morning?

Mark Negovan
Reply to  Stephen Lindsey
April 9, 2020 8:32 am

Scorch. marlenebq.

These machines are very much needed to treat specific classes of patients with ARDS ( Accute Respiratory Distress Syndrome ) induced by COVID-19 and pneumonia. They are part of the recommended protocols.

Paul
Reply to  Mark Negovan
April 9, 2020 12:15 pm

According to reports, ventilators are responsible for the high mortality rate (80% NYC), overstressing the already weakened victims. Doctors now rethinking whether ventilators should be used at all.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/80-percent-of-nyc-coronavirus-ventilator-patients-dying

Duker
Reply to  Mark Negovan
April 9, 2020 5:00 pm

Yes. That seems to be what various patients who recover describe happening. First came the nasal canulas to deliver oxygen directly and if the levels in the blood didnt rise then the positive pressure face mask would be used. Not everyone would get the ventilators as you would need sedation and intensive care. If I was elderly I might not want to be put on a ventilator as chance of recovery might be slim and I could stay bed ridden.
The pressure mask are similar to those ‘space helmets’ that patients in Italy are shown with

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  marlene
April 9, 2020 8:39 am

“I’ll research this globalists until the day I did”

Can anyone decipher this?

coaldust
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
April 9, 2020 12:02 pm

I think “…until the day I die…” was intended.

Javert Chip
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
April 9, 2020 4:23 pm

Marlene’s demonstrated communication skills are a little sketchy; I can’t figure who she hates

o Musk
o Gates
o others
o Any combination of the above

HotScot
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 3:23 am

David

I understand the Mercedes F1 team has been commissioned to manufacture 1,000 CPAP machines a day for the NHS and others.

No, they’re not ‘ventilators’ but not everyone in ICU requires invasive ventilation which comes with its own risks.

The CPAP machines alleviate the demand on full blown invasive ventilators by, if nothing else, buying the patient, and the health provider, time before sedation and ventilation.

In many cases, with the additional help to simply breathe, patients can recover without further intervention.

Bloke no longer down the pub
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 4:45 am

I have seen it suggested elsewhere, heaven knows the validity, that as intubation causes a number of problems for covid sufferers, BPAP machines are more useful in most instances.

icisil
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 5:39 am

BPAPs will probably result in fewer deaths. Ventilators using ARDSnet protocol is wrong, and probably fatal many times, for hypoxic patients with high lung compliance.

Kenji
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 8:10 am

Icisil-
Indeed. The killer part of this virus is compromising oxygen uptake of the RBC. Pushing air into lungs that are exchanging oxygen at a 50% efficiency isn’t solving the problem … only delaying the final moment of death. If the patient isn’t already healthy enough to survive until their own antibodies contain the disease … the ventilators wont save them. CPAP masks … even less so.

But I have no doubt that Tesla executives will nominate Elon for a Nobel Peace Prize … if Dr. Fauci doesn’t win it first … for … well, you know what.

Javert Chip
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 4:29 pm

David Middleton

Frankly, your opinion is irrelevant.

The only thing that really matters is what Musk and the medical authorities agreed Musk was to build.

Before all this happened, I wouldn’t know the difference between a ventilator and a CPAP.

Whatever Musk’s commitment was, he beat GM & Ford.

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 10, 2020 7:14 am

No, he did not. He bought something the “experts” were not calling for, and lied about manufacturing what the “experts” were calling for. You already know this, just keep defending Eloon, sure he appreciates it.

mcswell
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 6:11 pm

Middleton, you just don’t get it, do you? Not every patient needs a Ventilator with a capital V. Most people with the virus don’t need anything. Some need hospitalization but not ventilation; and yes, some are helped by BPAP. So BPAP is needed, and it is better than nothing for those patients that need it. Much better.

2hotel9
Reply to  mcswell
April 10, 2020 7:17 am

Clearly you don’t get it. Eloon Gantry told the world his plants would manufacture ventilators, he bought something else entirely. Don’t thank me, just toddle away.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 10:01 pm

“Middleton, you just don’t get it, do you?”

You’re apparently unable to comprehend English. A CPAP/APAP/BPAP/WHATEVERPAP is not a ventilator. That is Middleton’s point.

Javert Chip
Reply to  David Middleton
April 10, 2020 2:45 pm

Jeff Alberts

Nobody is disputing Musk originally said he was delivering “…ventilators…”; Individuals arguing that point are having a hard time taking “YES” for an answer.

The issue is did Musk get requests for different equipment (CPAP/BPAB) after he made his original statement.

Derg
Reply to  HotScot
April 9, 2020 3:49 am

“Tesla makes cars with sophisticated hvac [heating, ventilation and air conditioning] systems. SpaceX makes spacecraft with life support systems. Ventilators are not difficult, but cannot be produced instantly. Which hospitals have these shortages you speak of right now?” Musk replied.“

It is weird to say ventilators but deliver BPAP machines. I don’t Think David said anything about BPAP machines being useful or not.

Kenji
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 8:00 am

Tony Stark promised $30k Model 3’s … but only delivered $50k* Model 3’s

*starting at $41,190

donM
Reply to  Kenji
April 9, 2020 7:02 pm

and he had a submarine that could travel through submerged caves and rescue the kids from the pedo.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  donM
April 9, 2020 10:02 pm

And he thought it was a cool idea to sell flamethrowers to the public.

Simon
Reply to  Andyd
April 9, 2020 12:52 pm

Andyd
“I know the Musk-hate is strong around here….”
It sure is. I can’t understand why? I mean why would a guy who worked for the oil industry for years (David Middleton) want to mock a man who builds outrageously good electric car that don’t use oil? Oh wait….

2hotel9
Reply to  Simon
April 9, 2020 12:56 pm

“outrageously good electric car” Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats some funny crap right there. Nothing Eloon Gantry sells can operate up to the level of my Dodge Grand Caravan or Ford F 150.

Simon
Reply to  2hotel9
April 9, 2020 1:51 pm

2hotel9
Ever driven one? Thought not. Till you do, you are just blowing wind. And yes I have and holy shite…. they are something else.

DonM
Reply to  Simon
April 9, 2020 7:08 pm

Simon,

You get me the $30,000 version to test drive and I’ll drive it … O.K.?

2hotel9
Reply to  Simon
April 10, 2020 7:10 am

How much lumber did it carry? Tools and equipment? People? Oh, yea, its a toy. I am going to piss away that much money on a toy I’ll buy several nice sailboats.

Javert Chip
Reply to  Simon
April 10, 2020 3:02 pm

2hotel9 & Don M

Simon wasn’t talking about a $30k Tesla (Kenji was).

I do agree with 2hotel9 that if you want to carry lumber, cow manure, et al, a non-truck Tesla is not the answer. However, I can easily think of about a million other tasks for which an F150 is inappropriate.

Fortunately, it’s the market (not 2hotel or Don M) that determines if Tesla cars are worth what Tesla charges for them.

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 11, 2020 4:53 am

What are those current numbers? How long a wait? I can walk onto a dealers’ lots and drive away dozens of other, actually useful, brands and types of vehicles. But hey, keep pushing those toy cars, lots of people around with more money than brains. Well, at least there used to be, fewer and fewer every day now thanks to Chinese disease.

Bryan A
Reply to  2hotel9
April 9, 2020 2:12 pm

It barely beats a 100 year old Ford Model T in a cross country caper

Simon
Reply to  Bryan A
April 9, 2020 5:56 pm

Apples and oranges.

2hotel9
Reply to  Simon
April 10, 2020 7:11 am

You can carry apples and oranges in it? What, one of each?

yarpos
Reply to  Bryan A
April 9, 2020 11:18 pm

basic functionality comparison actually, but sure if it doesnt fit the EV spin, that will do

Javert Chip
Reply to  Bryan A
April 10, 2020 3:04 pm

Bryan A

Not if your comparison metric is MPG…or 0-60mph

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Simon
April 9, 2020 9:23 pm

“electric car that don’t use oil?”

Where does all the plastic and rubber come from?

Bill Toland
Reply to  Simon
April 10, 2020 5:17 am

Simon, it is true that electric cars don’t use oil as a means of propulsion, but where do you think the electricity comes from? The majority of electricity produced in the United States comes from coal and gas. I like to think of electric cars as steam powered which is so 19th century.

Javert Chip
Reply to  Bill Toland
April 10, 2020 3:10 pm

Bill Toland

So what if electricity comes from coal, or whatever? Who cares (except you, and I of course appreciate your well articulated opinion)?

Filling up your Tesla on coal/oil/gas-generated market-priced electricity is a hell of a lot less expensive than gasoline.

Bill Toland
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 10, 2020 5:30 pm

Javert Chip, I thought the whole point of owning an electric car was that it was “saving the planet” rather than being cheaper to run. So you are saying that electric cars are not saving the planet at all?

Javert Chip
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 10, 2020 10:13 pm

Bill

We’re on the same side; I’m a retired CFO & BMW 540i gear-head (I lease & it’s my 8th BMW); I’m a rock-solid “denialist”. With my physics background, I love arguing with warmists – I start off with some nasty questions about the CO2 absorption spectrums; that freaks out 98.6% of pseudo climate scientists.

Having said all that, I recognize 250 miles of EV electricity is less expensive than 250 miles of gasoline in a “real” car. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna buy an EV.

DonM
Reply to  Andyd
April 9, 2020 7:13 pm

Andy,

I don’t want to do any research …

can you tell me if the BPAP’s were in short supply? or was this just a publicity stunt?

Lusk said he could deliver more if needed … do they take him up on it?

Kneeman
Reply to  DonM
April 10, 2020 6:45 pm

The critical care physicians are rethinking the ventilator protocols. The nature of the Covid pneumonia stiffens the lungs and they feel the usual increase pressure to overcome decreased lung compliance may be doing more harm than good. Patients who are able to develop a negative pressure in an effort to breathe seem to be doing better with oxygen supplementation by nasal prong or face mask. If a patient needs to be and is intubated on a ventilator there is only about a 20% chance of survival. Musk may have been right to provide low pressure oxygen supplementation (as compared to a ventilator) in the form of a cpap.

Tony Anderson
April 9, 2020 2:23 am

Australia had a guy that used to run our country, who thought he was the smartest man in the room. Well it turned out that he wasn’t, and it looks as though Elon Musk fill the same role in the USA.
Yes it is “fracking” funny, what a mix up and useless as COVID-19 ventilators.

Tony Anderson
April 9, 2020 2:24 am

Australia had a guy that used to run our country, who thought he was the smartest man in the room. Well it turned out that he wasn’t, and it looks as though Elon Musk fills the same role in the USA.
Yes it is “fracking” funny, what a mix up and useless as COVID-19 ventilators.

Oldseadog
April 9, 2020 2:32 am

I think this is the type of machine that Boris Johnson is on. Our MSM are reporting that less severe cases use these since the recipient does not have to be anaethsetised while using it.

icisil
Reply to  Oldseadog
April 9, 2020 5:21 am

Anaesthesia can be a real long-term problem, as well as permanent lung damage and death from high PEEP (pressure).

Reply to  icisil
April 9, 2020 5:50 am

was on zoom last eve. (8th) with one of my former students, a research PhD at the CDC in Atlanta and was shocked to hear that only about 10% of Wuhan Corona patients survive ventilation. The endeavor is a last ditch attempt to save the critically ill.

markx
April 9, 2020 2:32 am

However …. he might have lucked it here:

With ventilators running out, doctors say the machines are overused for Covid-19
By SHARON BEGLEY @sxbegleAPRIL 8, 2020

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0xssyJuL9yWPUXnKc4TJaQqQOBQL3eWMAce76Lfun2zQ4AqqzyivfSBw4

“…The noninvasive devices “can provide some amount of support for breathing and oxygenation, without needing a ventilator,” said ICU physician and pulmonologist Lakshman Swamy of Boston Medical Center.

One problem, though, is that CPAP and other positive-pressure machines pose a risk to health care workers, he said. The devices push aerosolized virus particles into the air, where anyone entering the patient’s room can inhale them. The intubation required for mechanical ventilators can also aerosolize virus particles, but the machine is a contained system after that.
…”

ozspeaksup
Reply to  markx
April 9, 2020 5:37 am

Ive wondered about that
if your lungs are clagged up then lying flat with a tube down your throat..might get oxygen in but isnt going to remove crap out of lungs
but being upright and coughing UP the crap with one of these masks on might be a better option?
when people have MS and their lungs are filling they have them cough and lie forwards while someone whacks their back to remove the crud. better out than in etc
close to 30+yrs ago one of the daytime science shows ran a bit on a method to be able to flush lungs with an oxygen gel and then suction it out for burns/chem patients
what happened to that I wonder?
throw abotics into the gel flush rinse repeat;-/??

Reply to  ozspeaksup
April 9, 2020 6:30 am

I’m understanding that the positive pressure of the ventilator can do more harm and it pushes the mucus into the capillaries of the lungs degrading the oxygen exchange even further. The CPAC operates at a lower pressure and basically exchanges more air through a circulatory process. And since it is not a closed system the particulates do exchange with the immediate environment posing a danger to healthcare workers since all reports seems to place the transmission between droplet and airborne, ie: aerosol.

I’m surprise no one is suggesting ECMO (Extracorporeal Membrane Oxygenation) .
https://www.healthline.com/health/extra-corporeal-membrane-oxygenation
This device exchanges Oxygen with CO2 directly in the blood stream and bypasses the dependency of a functioning lung.

Joe D
Reply to  ozspeaksup
April 9, 2020 8:41 am

From what I have read, it is not so much that the lungs are being filled with fluid, but that the tissue itself, including alveoli, are inflamed.

Gums
Reply to  ozspeaksup
April 9, 2020 1:32 pm

Salute!

@ Edward, et al…

Being a born again breather with a significant loss of lung capacity (COPD), I have learned and seen how the oxygen exchanges here at sea level and at a summer place 8,000 feet MSL. You transfer the oxygen more when breathing out more than breathing in. Some law about partial pressure and all that.

The pressure coming in is not normally as important as the percent of oxygen you are inhaling or being forced down your lungs. The benefit of breathing under positive pressure comes when exhaling. I flew a few years with a positive presure system designed to be used with a full presure space suit. No need to inhale, jus relax and it pumped in! Heh heh. But breathing out took some effort, and that’s where we got plenty of oxygen. And it also purged our blood of nitrogen to reduce possibility of “bends” or other bad things.

I am fascinated by some articles postulating that the imfamous “ventilators’ do not help much and may even hurt treatment. Of course, the pols chanting “we need more ventilators” prolly had no clue about how they worked or how the lungs transfer oxygen and carbon dioxide in our bodies several times a minute. Guess I can just crank up my oxygen concentrator if I begin to have symptoms, huh?

Gums sends…

Greg
April 9, 2020 2:44 am

I wear a CPAP. It works great on sleep apnea (snoring).

sleep apnea means you stop breathing periodically when asleep. If you are not breathing you are not snoring !

snoring happens while breathing normally during sleep. Most people doing this do not suffer from apnea.

Rah
Reply to  Greg
April 9, 2020 3:27 am

Tell that to those doing physicals on truckers. Standard question they ask is “Do you snore?”. They associate snoring with sleep apnea.

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 5:28 am

I didn’t know I had sleep apnea until I got married. The snoring would wake my wife, and then the not breathing for half a minute or so would terrify her and she’d give me a jab to kick the motor over. I tested at something like 40-60 interruptions per hour. My first CPAP machine clocked over 33,000 hours. If I don’t use it, I can’t sleep. I recently had to be tested again to replace that device. Now they have this nifty gear you wear at home for the study, but of course you aren’t using the CPAP during the study. The worst night of “sleep” I’ve ever had in my life.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
April 9, 2020 8:51 am

I also snored loudly enough to wake my wife (and she to me), but neither of us ever stop breathing.

I have been using a mouthpiece for the last decade or so, which greatly reduces the snoring (I’ve gone through several over the years, they do wear out). Now I can’t sleep without it.

She won’t get one, of course.

Mike Dubrasich
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 6:31 pm

Elon Musk is an idiot etc etc

But I love my CPAP. I sleep so much better and longer, and wake refreshed and happy. They require a prescription and a sleep study so the quacks can steal your money, but if not for that I would recommend them to anybody who snores, apnea or not. Insomnia? Get a CPAP. I would sell them out of the back of my truck if I could. Black market CPAPs. I swear by mine. Probably added a dozen or more years to my life (the final count is not in yet).

donM
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
April 9, 2020 7:16 pm

I’ll be your first customer.

I should have gotten one years back. If I don’t soon get one I will indeed begin losing years.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
April 9, 2020 9:21 pm

If snoring is the only problem, I would go for a mouthpiece. MUCH cheaper, easier to clean (I use Polident), and nothing to plug in or cover your face. I have been using Puresleep for about a decade.

2hotel9
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
April 10, 2020 7:19 am

Now you can skip the prescription and sleep study and buy one from Eloon! Maybe that is how he plans to refinance Tesla.

Javert Chip
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
April 10, 2020 3:29 pm

2hotel9

Just an honest question:

Did you ever create, build and successfully sell gizmos to the market (we won’t even set your threshold of success at a million expensive “toys”)?

Or are you more comfortable sitting in the peanut gallery, yelling at people who do?

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 11, 2020 4:48 am

I build houses, design landscaping and decks, farm and otherwise live out here in the real world. I don’t scam people out of money, or suck up vast amounts of tax dollars, and I damned sure don’t say one thing to customers and then do something different and expect them to pay me. You can love a toy car all you want, does not change the fact it is a toy, or that the majority of people in America don’t want a toy car. When Eloon out sells F 150 come talk to me.

To be clear, you want me driving electric it will be powered by gasoline or LNG running a generator, not some plugin toy.

Rah
Reply to  Greg
April 9, 2020 4:04 am

BTW my standard truthful answer to that question is, “According to my wife, only when I have a Jack & coke or am very tired.”

Trucking physical required every 2 years unless the driver has certain conditions such as diabetes, hypertension, etc. Then the driver must have a physical annually at a minimum.

Chaswarnertoo
April 9, 2020 2:58 am

Ventilators may well be causing deaths. Less pressure and more O2 needed, so CPAP with O2 may well be correct.

H.R.
Reply to  Chaswarnertoo
April 9, 2020 3:48 am

That’s how I’m seeing it. I’d refuse the ventilator and demand a CPAP with added O2.

Why do they keep using a treatment where 50%+ die and a high percentage have permanent lung damage? Isn’t that an indicator they are ‘doing it wrong’ and should try something else?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  H.R.
April 9, 2020 4:29 am

Interesting question, H.R.

I heard mention of another method that is used to help people breath that doesn’t require shoving a tube down the patients throat, instead this machine (I don’t know its name) filters the blood and puts oxygen into the bloodstream that way instead of through the lungs. I think it is mainly used for organ transplant surgery.

Geo Rubik
Reply to  Tom Abbott
April 9, 2020 4:58 am

Extracorporeal Membrane Oxygenation (ECMO)
I think this is it.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Geo Rubik
April 9, 2020 5:41 am

yup and ECMO costs more and there are way less available, theyre using them on the kidney fail as well as lung fail patients when they have them I gather
they were using them for the worst Swineflu patients in Aus yrs ago
(mates a nurse and told me they needed more)

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Geo Rubik
April 9, 2020 11:23 am

Thanks for that info, Geo.

Does anyone know the procedure for hooking this machine up? Does it require major surgery, or is it more like putting a needle in your arm?

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  H.R.
April 9, 2020 10:05 am

CPAPs are not designed to have added O2. Maybe some can be retrofitted easier than others.

Allan Short
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 9, 2020 12:05 pm

Michael, remove hose from machine, insert adapter, reconnect hose, connect O2 hose to adapter, simple. Adapter is under $5.00.

otsar
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 9, 2020 6:51 pm

On a typical cpap, bi-pap, all that is neede is a chek valve to keep oxygen out of the unit and a port to add oxygen down stream of the check valve.

High Treason
April 9, 2020 3:16 am

CPAP-sounds similar to bullcrap. Describes the cAGW / “climate change” narrative.

Flight Level
April 9, 2020 3:27 am

First, I am not a qualified medical doctor and whatever follows is not a medical advice.

Back then I did medevac’s. Including intubated patients hooked on complex life sustaining gear.

The look in their eyes still has cold ants running on my back. They’re not treated as human but as restrained to the cot biological entities. It’s all about what to connect where then hush to destination with the packs in high-flow mode, never mind fuel savings.

A very uneasy feeling. Like if these poor deeply unhappy beings endured abuse to the point of just asking for mercy and hoping that this flight would somehow be it.

I’m not really sure if such an intensely distressing situation goes without non-repairable collateral damages for those enduring it…

MJB
Reply to  Flight Level
April 9, 2020 4:21 am

“cold ants running on my back”
+100, very evocative description

Dodgy Geezer
April 9, 2020 3:34 am

Watching the epidemic bite….

I am tracking the UK official Total Mortality rates, since these are the only meaningful indicator of what is happening in this country. In the absence of large-scale testing activity the ‘number of infections’ is not a reliable indicator, and deaths due to Covid-19 infection are both estimates, and confounded by the fact that these mainly occur amongst those who are susceptible to respiratory disease, and who already have co-morbidities.

Amongst such people there is invariably a rise in death rate during the winter months. The advantage of tracking Total Mortality is that it should show if this increase is excessive compared to other winters, and, if so, by how much.

The disadvantage of tracking this figure is that it is reported a week in arrears, and comprises deaths which, if caused by an infection, presumably started their track a week or so earlier. So the figure describes the situation about a fortnight ago. I still feel that is is a useful balance to the headline figures which are provided to the public with no comparisons.

PHE has just produced its Week 14 report. This shows increased mortality amongst the 65+ age group in England – though the increase is less than in the small flu epidemic we had at the end of 2019. They note no increase for any group in Wales, N Ireland or Scotland (though the Scottish figures look to be a bit delayed).

Specifically, PHE say:

“..In week 13 2020 in England, statistically significant excess mortality by week of death above the upper 2 z-score threshold was seen overall, by age group in the 65+ year olds and sub nationally (all ages) in the North West, East & West Midlands, London and South East regions…”

This sounds as if everybody is being affected. But their later table clearly shows no increase amongst any age group below 65 years. So I interpret their statement to mean that the increase in 65+ deaths pulls up the Total Deaths to a significant increase on its own, with no contribution from lower ages.

They also note the several geographic areas which show an increase. There are areas with large cities in them – I suspect that these are where the increase is occurring.

So, as of last week, Total Mortality figures show an increase in respiratory infection deaths amongst the elderly lower than, but broadly in line with the increase we had in Autumn last year. Let us see what next week’s figures will bring….

Javert Chip
Reply to  Dodgy Geezer
April 10, 2020 3:50 pm

Dodgy Geezer

This website (link: http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/) APPEARS to have daily data for UK; I use it for my own tracking in the US. Data provided by Johns Hopkins.

The link has 4 separate graphs:

o COVID-19 Cases by Country
o COVID-19 Cases by US States/Territories (this seems tuned to US states & may be useless for UK user)
o COVID-19 Cases by Country, normalized by country population
o COVID-19 Cases by US States/Territories, normalized by population (again. may not be of value in UK)

Each graph is easily customizable to log/linear, and graphing can be selected for the following data:

o Active cases
o Total confirmed cases
o New cases per day
o Total deaths
o New deaths per day
o Recoveries

I’m anticipating but can’t answer your obvious question: “Why/how does US Johns Hopkins (a major & highly respected US University) get UK data so much faster than you are able to get UK data?”.

1st thing I would do with this new source of data is reconcile a few days of your data to validate the US Johns Hopkins presentation.

AndrewWA
April 9, 2020 3:50 am

It’s not a case of Musk hate.

Tesla has received >US$4.5 Billion in subsidies from the USA government.

What does that make the cost of each of these CPAP machines.

Big on promises – short on delivery – just like SA’s great big battery.

Andyd
Reply to  AndrewWA
April 9, 2020 5:41 am

Musk Derangement Syndrome.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Andyd
April 9, 2020 8:59 am

Musk is definitely deranged.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  AndrewWA
April 9, 2020 5:48 am

and he bought them NOT made them.
our govts just done some deal of 35mil or so for respirators too
must have a massive price tag cos theyre not buying a million
couple thousand I think

Uzurbrain
Reply to  ozspeaksup
April 9, 2020 6:57 am

And probably got them at a deep discount price as they were an Obsolete model. He will now declare full MSRP as a tax write off. Both Good will and decreased tax earned.

Javert Chip
Reply to  AndrewWA
April 10, 2020 5:10 pm

AndrewWA

Your comment “…Tesla has received >US$4.5 Billion in subsidies from the USA government…”. (NOTE: I interpret you comment to actually include state & Federal tax payments made to Tesla, as well as benefits receive, but not paid directly to, Tesla). Tesla financials, as well as the governments involved, are anything but transparent on this issue.

I’ve tried to understand the “Tesla subsidies” comment for years. MY BEST GUESS (?) is total direct FEDERAL tax credit payments to Tesla have mot equaled $4.5B (I suspect most Federal Tax Credits goes directly to consumers). All ZEV/non-ZEV credict are state-funded, and paid directly to Tesla. The following is about the best I can do:

There are 3 separate sources of tax credits Tesla has received or benefited from:

1) Federal tax credit of up to $7,500 per electric car
a) If purchased, this credit GOES DIRECTLY TO INDIVIDUAL PURCHASING THE CAR, not Tesla (however, it does reduce the cost to the consumer, thus benefiting Tesla). Further, the credit offsets “up to $7,500” of individual tax in the year the car is purchased, If the purchaser owes less than $7,500, they get less tax credit (there is no tax credit carry-over)
b) If cars is leased, $7,500 tax credit goes to the leasing company (unclear what %age of cars are leased, and what %age of those are leased directly by Tesla).

2) ZEV tax credits: My understanding is these “per EV sale” credits are offered by certain states (ie: not Federal), and go directly to manufacturers (not consumers).

3) non-ZEV tax credits: My understand is these credits are offered by certain states (ie: not Federal), and go directly to manufacturers. These general incentives (ie: not “per EV sale”) encourage manufacture research/development for future EVs.

I’m really not sure I’ve moved the ball forward with this comment.

CoRev
April 9, 2020 4:03 am

A/B/CPAP machines are recognized alternatives to treat Covid-19 breathing in the early of infection and recovery stage W/breathing problems. They can be fitted with oxygen to augment breathing support. During these stages they can replace the use of full ventilators. THAT’S A GOOD THING!

Greg Freemyer
Reply to  CoRev
April 9, 2020 5:20 am

Except they push the virus into the air and make it unsafe for medical professionals as well as visitors entering the room.

I believe there use is officially discouraged.

icisil
Reply to  Greg Freemyer
April 9, 2020 5:53 am

That’s an example of how policy sometimes works to the detriment of the patient.

CoRev
Reply to  Greg Freemyer
April 9, 2020 6:55 am

Greg Freemyer, rubbish. An infected person’s breathing “push(es) the virus into the air and make it unsafe”. We are talking about treatment for those afflicted with minor breathing problems, and making ventilators available for those who actually need them instead of using them who do not.

https://regulis.com/medical-device/cpap-device-gains-rapid-mhra-approval-for-use-in-covid-19/
“CPAP devices push a steady flow of high pressure air-oxygen mix into the mouth and nose, provided the patient is able to breath on their own. The extra pressure helps to open up the collapsed alveoli and push oxygen across the inflamed lung membrane. Therefore, CPAP increases blood oxygen more than just giving oxygen using a conventional oxygen mask.

“They will help to save lives by ensuring that ventilators, a limited resource, are used only for the most severely ill.””

davidmhoffer
Reply to  CoRev
April 9, 2020 12:21 pm

Not rubbish, I looked into this because I have a very expensive CPAP machine sitting on the shelf that I was going to donate to a local hospital. Turns out the way they work they turn any infected droplets into aerosols that stay airborne WAY longer and hence much more infectious. So not suitable for anyone with Covid unless they are isolated and only in contact with people who are already immune.

Ventilators have better filtration systems. But even they have this problem because if the patient moves around too much, the hoses can get popped off their connections on some models, and the same happens, aeresolized virus into the room. Some BPAP machines can apparently be retrofitted with better filtration systems, but doesn’t sound like Elon took that step.

CoRev
Reply to  davidmhoffer
April 9, 2020 3:10 pm

davidmhoffer, exactly, ” Some BPAP machines can apparently be retrofitted with better filtration systems, but doesn’t sound like Elon took that step.” and ” So not suitable for anyone with Covid unless they are isolated and only in contact with people who are already immune.” are insufficient reasons to restrict access to ventilators when needed by someone more needy. Covid=19 patients are already isolated with PPE in use in hospitals

Modify them. Anyone who uses one knows how simple that actually is. Yes, I use one. I am in the cohort most likely seriously affected. I am also old enough to fall into the category denied the robust efforts to cure/heal after infected.

Javert Chip
Reply to  davidmhoffer
April 9, 2020 4:47 pm

David Middleton

Unless you are a medical doctor (you’ve not said you are), this entire thread is somewhere between somewhat to highly misleading. You have shed no light on what was actually ordered from Musk (this thread assumes ventilators).

If Ventilators were ordered and Musk delivered BPAP, then MUSK screwed up.

If BPAP were ordered and Musk delivered BPAP, then Musk did a good job.

A bunch of non-medical laymen (AKA this entire thread) bloviating about appropriate use of ventilator vs CPAP/BPAP is not even mildly meaningful.

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 10, 2020 7:25 am

Eloon said one thing and did something totally different, that is the thrust of DM’s post. Glad you are smart enough to figure that out!

Javert Chip
Reply to  davidmhoffer
April 10, 2020 11:20 am

2hotel9

Good to know only you know exactly what was ordered from Musk. your entire intellectually deficient act would be much more convincing if you’d simply provide a credible link to the question: WHAT WAS IT THAT MUSK WAS ORDERED/ASKED TO BUILD, AND IS THAT WHAT HE DELIVERED?

You apparently have no answer for that question.

So, we’re now treated to the ever-popular tactic of an anonymous, apparently non-medical doctor, thread-bomber, dropping ad hominems & snark on commenters asking legitimate questions.

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 11, 2020 4:59 am

You got prove he was given orders? No? Didn’t think so.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  CoRev
April 9, 2020 9:14 am

CoRev, has anyone documented a shortage of CPAP machines? They appear to be plentiful on the internet. If there is no shortage, than Musk is just a headline grabbing piece of crap who never delivers anything useful. Remember his submarine for the Thai kids in the cave? All publicity, no functionality.

Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
April 9, 2020 9:40 am

re: ” has anyone documented a shortage of CPAP machines? They appear to be plentiful on the internet.”

Onesy – twosey, or in quantities of 1000 at a time? There is a difference.

Prjindigo
April 9, 2020 4:13 am

The difference between an APAP/CPAP/BPAP machine and a ventilator is just in the code and the addition of a timed valve.

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  Prjindigo
April 9, 2020 5:34 am

No, it isn’t. When a ventilator is used, they shove a tube down your throat. Big difference.

icisil
Reply to  Prjindigo
April 9, 2020 5:46 am

The first 3 you mentioned are simply attached to the face. With ventilators a 10″ tube is shoved down your throat, your mouth and nose sealed and the patient is anesthetized due to the traumatic treatment.

Reply to  icisil
April 9, 2020 7:00 am

re: ” … and the patient is anesthetized due to the traumatic treatment.”

I can only imagine (imagine the feeling, were one to be awake and alert during this)!

2hotel9
April 9, 2020 4:17 am

This falls under the same reasoning as using a bandana if you don’t have a medical/industrial face mask, it is better than nothing. Again Eloon Gantry played fast and lose with the facts in a play to make himself look like the hero. Does not mean what he supplied won’t be useful for treating patients, these machines can free up invasive type ventilators for use on patients who do need them.

Javert Chip
Reply to  2hotel9
April 9, 2020 5:04 pm

2hotel9

WUWT commenters take great umbrage at ad hominem attacks; we consider them intellectually deficient. Since you have absolutely zero knowledge of what was actually ordered from Musk, you have no basis for your childish ad hominem attack.

If it’s found Musk actually did build the wrong thing, then, yea, hold him accountable.

People who sit in the peanut gallery hurling ad hominems are encouraged to buy a six-pac of STFU and chug a few cans.

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 10, 2020 7:23 am

Eloon Gantry said, publicly, he was going to manufacture ventilators. That is what he said, publicly, on the record. Instead he bought something that is NOT a ventilator. Get it yet? Say one thing, do another? Are you really this dense? Apparently so.

Javert Chip
Reply to  2hotel9
April 10, 2020 11:27 am

2hotel

Yup, I got that.

But it’s irrelevant if Musk had subsequent conversation with medical or other authorities that caused him to change what he was supposed to deliver.

You may have been so otherwise occupied with ad hominems that Musk decided not to tell you about the change. Or, like the majority of Americans, he may not have known the difference between a ventilator and CPAP/BPAP.

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 11, 2020 4:58 am

He siad one thing and did something totally different. THAT is the point. He never had any conversation, according to him, he just decided to do this to “help” people. No one has been talking about CPAP/BPAP equipment until Eloon did his little switcheroo. Slight of hand only works if the marks don’t catch you at it.

Reply to  2hotel9
April 11, 2020 5:37 am

re: “No one has been talking about CPAP/BPAP equipment until Eloon did his little switcheroo. ”

MAYBE he reads WUWT and saw the stories posted on how detrimental ventilators/intubation* was?

JUST throwing that out there. (Hey – if you do it, why can’t I?)

.
.
* Intubation is the process of inserting a tube, called an endotracheal tube (ET), through the mouth and then into the airway. This is done so that a patient can be placed on a ventilator to assist with breathing during anesthesia, sedation, or severe illness.

Prjindigo
April 9, 2020 4:29 am

On a side-note, David Middleton, if you have allergy problems that block you from using a CPAP then you need to get a small-room HEPA filter to run on low aimed into the back of your CPAP’s intake. The pressure machines do not come with HEPA rated filtration (even tho some claim). Take Loratadine daily about 3 hours before sleep and see about getting an **APAP** that will automatically ramp the pressure and program itself by back-pressure when you put it on each night. Put old bedsheet or pillow case cloth over the intake on the HEPA filter, it’ll make it last a long time.

The pressure assisted sleep is more important than ANY other concern you have about medications. BiPAP also actually refers to a dual-pressure system that deals with short term blood pressure increases in sleep that overcome the lower setting and the type has nothing to do with whether the mouth is covered. There are actual full-face (covers eyes too) headpieces for people with blown/damaged tear ducts that connect to the nasal passage or for people who have no nose due to injury – still called CPAP.

But seriously, see if you can get an APAP type CPAP. My asthma is so bad I have to wear a powered dual cartridge P100 PAPR when driving to ensure I’m not impared/disabled by some moron with a diesel pickup.

Sundstrom is a great brand, you literally cannot get the P100’s right now due to international demand but in the long run a SR551 with P100 on it should be in your emergency pouch. Best mask in the world.

Latitude
April 9, 2020 4:32 am

Now that gas is cheap…
…we can’t go anywhere

commieBob
April 9, 2020 4:51 am

There are a zillion recipes for diy ventilators on the internet. It sounds so easy. Not

If something less invasive than a ventilator can do the job, I’m all for it.

Mike O
April 9, 2020 5:13 am

A German study showed that intubation and ventilation yielded worse results than a full mask oxygen course. Maybe Musk is smarter than the rest of us.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/

icisil
Reply to  Mike O
April 9, 2020 5:50 am

IMO he was just being practical. CPAP can be manufactured quickly, ventilators take more time due to their complexity.

Daryl M
Reply to  Mike O
April 9, 2020 12:27 pm

I was going to reference the same article. It may be that the BPAP machines are more appropriate for Wuhan Coronavirus patients, anyway.

icisil
April 9, 2020 5:31 am

A hospital in Europe that treated ICU covid patients with something akin to CPAP had 0% mortality. A nearby hospital that used ventilators suffered a 60% mortality.

https://www.the-hospitalist.org/hospitalist/article/220301/coronavirus-updates/protocol-driven-covid-19-respiratory-therapy-doing

commieBob
Reply to  icisil
April 9, 2020 1:36 pm

As far as I can tell, ventilators are nasty business. link

Doug Huffman
April 9, 2020 5:31 am

I believe that my ResMed Auto Sense CPAP can be hacked to high function. Unfortunately the mask that I used does not support that function. I gave CPAP up more than a year ago as a mere crutch against my Central SA – Athletic Heart Syndrome.

Doug Huffman
April 9, 2020 5:32 am

Intubation outcome is why I have a DNR order.

ResourceGuy
April 9, 2020 5:33 am

I agree with others here. Do more research before slamming CPAP with O2 regulators.

You have not done your homework on this one.

Also, you might want to look up the damage done by ventilation measures even though it does become necessary for many to survive.

John Endicott
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 9, 2020 5:54 am

I think you entirely missed the point. He’s not “slamming CPAPs”. He’s not even saying whether or not they’ll be useful. He’s point out that Musk promised one thing and delivered something else entirely. The MSM fake news media and Governors (like Cuomo just to name the first one that springs to mind) go on and on about how they have a shortage of ventilators and have been requesting more ventilators. They haven’t been going on and on about a shortage of CPAP machines. In response, Musk talked specifically about “state-of-the-art ventilators” (his phrase). CPAPs are not ventilators. Perhaps it’s Musk who didn’t do his homework on this one if he doesn’t know the difference between a “state-of-the-art ventilator” and a CPAP machine.

Reply to  John Endicott
April 9, 2020 7:05 am

re: “The MSM fake news media and Governors (like Cuomo just to name the first one that springs to mind) go on and on about how they have a shortage of ventilators and have been requesting more ventilators. ”

UNLESS I can see a memo/e-mail from the chief surgeon from the hospital making such a request I’m going to assume NONE of the parties ‘talking’ know what it is that the hospital REALLY needs.

toorightmate
April 9, 2020 5:39 am

Elon is well qualified and experienced to produce CRAP machines.
His “world’s biggest battery” is doing wonders for South Australia’s electricity consumers – pig’s ar*e.

observa
Reply to  toorightmate
April 10, 2020 12:26 am

Actually it’s making a bundle providing FCAS services to the grid that was stuffed with unreliables causing the problem in the first place and that’s not Musk’s fault. He’s just riding the tail end of the gravy train or you might say providing some fill for the vast hole Gummint dug in the first place. You could argue the Gummint shouldn’t have dug the hole in the first place but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t need filling now.

As to whether Musk’s Big Battery or the 9 diesel generators consuming 80,000L/hr of diesel is the cheaper source of fill I don’t have the figures. However we should always choose the most economic fill for the purpose although perhaps it was line ball under the circumstances and Mr Musk couldn’t fulfill the complete order in time and given the urgency of summer and an election coming up.

yirgach
April 9, 2020 6:06 am

Elon Musk Delivers CRAP Machines to Hospitals
FIFY.

Robert Hooper
April 9, 2020 6:14 am

Related is this article which says ventilators may not be the way to go for many with low oxygen levels. Many cases can use more gentle ventilation.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/

Alan D. McIntire
April 9, 2020 6:16 am

Hospitals using Elon Musk’s CPAP machines instead of ventilators may be saving lives,

https://www.newswars.com/bombshell-plea-from-nyc-icu-doctor-covid-19-a-condition-of-oxygen-deprivation-not-pneumonia/

“A NYC physician named Cameron Kyle-Sidell has posted two videos on YouTube, pleading for health practitioners to recognize that COVID-19 is not a pneumonia-like disease at all. It’s an oxygen deprivation condition, and the use of ventilators may be doing more harm than good with some patients. The ventilators themselves, due to the high-pressure methods they are running, may be damaging the lungs and leading to widespread harm of patients.”

Steve Richards
April 9, 2020 6:24 am

“Why do they keep using a treatment where 50%+ die and a high percentage have permanent lung damage? Isn’t that an indicator they are ‘doing it wrong’ and should try something else?”

On the whole, medics do not like invasive therapy, it has consequences.

If you have serious trouble with breathing that your O2 levels are very low and falling, what do you do?

You can have a simple hard plastic mask close to your mouth and nose with a constant supply of O2 which will improve matters.

But what if you are to weak or your lungs are down to 50% capacity due to an infection or condition?

You can have a CPAP device which forces your nearly deflated lungs to open up a bit and it assists with getting more O2 into you.

What if a CPAP type device did not give you enough O2 and your levels keep falling, you become more confused, your major organs are under threat?

Medics will suggest ventilation, not because they fancy it, or they want to try out a shiny new device, it is the last step in saving your life.

They ventilate you, your O2 levels reach normal levels and now they wait for the virus to subside as your bodies immune system sorts it out. Or not.

Ventilation may not be nice, it does have a downside, but it is the option of last resort.

littlepeaks
April 9, 2020 6:26 am

One warning, from the FDA, about using CPAP devices in a COVID-19 or other communicable disease setting:

Ventilating patients with communicable diseases using devices that are single limb or noninvasive without a filtered seal from atmosphere may contaminate the room air and increase risk of transmission. This risk may be exacerbated by high-flow nasal cannula systems or CPAP machines.

Tom in Florida
April 9, 2020 6:27 am

So what happens when you don’t properly clean your CPAP on a daily basis? Perhaps Musk is more interested in selling cleaning machines.

Uzurbrain
April 9, 2020 6:45 am

Guaranteed Musk will take the full MSRP as a tax write off for these “Outdated” machines.

Uzurbrain
April 9, 2020 7:25 am

Comments here point out another problem with politicians and their use of computer models. Listening to Cuomo on his daily rant he NEEDS 16,000 Ventilators – the most expensive $50,000 ones. He NEEDS them because that is the Worst Case computer prediction, and to have less means he does not get reelected.
In actuality, even if there were the Worst Case number of people in the ICU, I seriously doubt if doctors would have more than half that number on the $50,000 model. And then they would only be on the device for half of their stay.

Henry Pool
April 9, 2020 9:06 am

Dr. Middleton, when your COVID-19 patient presents hypoxemia, does the APAP/CPAP/BPAP therapy help?

Henry Pool
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 10:34 am

Dr. Middleton, you should consult with your peers working in various ERs. They’ll give you advice on Musk’s devices.

Henry Pool
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 10:38 am

For example Dr. Middleton, talk to some of your peers working here: https://us.cnn.com/2020/04/09/us/detroit-hospital-workers-sinai-grace-coronavirus/index.html

Henry Pool
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 12:59 pm

Which of the following two men deserves our respect? Man “A” donates medical equipment to hospitals the help with the sick. Man “B” sits at home at his computer denigrating and disparaging man “B” because……..oil.

2hotel9
Reply to  Henry Pool
April 9, 2020 1:05 pm

Wow, the butthurt is strong in you. Call Eloon Gantry! I bet he’ll send you a check! For the record, Eloon Gantry said, publicly, his factories would produce ventilators, instead he bought cpap machines and sent them to LA. Now he will write the cost of those 1250 machines, and cost of shipping them, off his taxes. No wonder he is your hero.

2hotel9
Reply to  Henry Pool
April 9, 2020 1:06 pm

Oh, and yes, oil. It is superior to anything you or Eloon can come up with. So is coal.

Henry Pool
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 5:35 pm

Middleton, posting the same picture over and over, expecting different results?
..
2hotel9, how about U235 or thorium?

2hotel9
Reply to  Henry Pool
April 10, 2020 6:36 am

Now you are going to pretend you support nuclear electric generation plants? Thats precious. Eloon Gantry said one thing and then did something totally different and you are defending him, yet again. Thats precious, too.

John Endicott
Reply to  David Middleton
April 10, 2020 6:25 am

Henry you keep posting the same strawman arguments over again, so why wouldn’t you expect the same resulting replies? How about addressing the substance of what was posted rather than attacking arguments never made?

Javert Chip
Reply to  David Middleton
April 9, 2020 5:35 pm

David Middleton

Full discloser: I own no Musk stock (or Tesla), but I do appreciate his entrepreneural spirit. Generally, I tolerate errors of commission better than omission.

The first strawman in this post was your failure to even attempt to document what machines were ordered from Musk (probably requires a couple phone calls) before setting him up for having delivered the wrong product. This is CNN-quality reporting.

DonM
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 9, 2020 7:33 pm

Musk said ‘ventilators’ in the frame of the MSM media hype.

If Musk said BPAP’s he would not have gotten the notoriety he has grown to appreciate.

Hype is hype.

I donated 400,000 worth of my time and expertise to a local at risk kid’s center last year….

I donated $4,000 worth of my time and expertise to a local at risk kid’s center last year….

I donated 400,000 pennies worth of my time and expertise to a local at risk kid’s center last year….

The second statement is true; the third statement is true; this is the first time that I have mentioned any of it to anyone; the first statement is typical of what Musk would say and what he said about the ventilators is an example of such.

John Endicott
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 10, 2020 6:29 am

Javier, Musk was bragging in the media about how he was going to be providing “state-of-the-art ventilators” (that was his choice of phrase). CPAP machines, no matter how you try to spin it, are not “state-of-the-art ventilators”. Musk said one thing, he did another. period. that’s not a strawman, it’s the facts.

Javert Chip
Reply to  John Endicott
April 10, 2020 10:53 pm

John Endicott

I absolutely understand the difficulty of proving a negative.

I’m a retired CFO with significant M&A experience. I have years of experience “proving negatives” – it’s called effective due diligence. Obviously I wasn’t 100.000% accurate; but I was damn better than 95%.

Ok, so how do I think Middleton should have proceeded: Before using WUWT to publicly ridicule Musk, Middleton had a strong ethical obligation to attempt to contact him and ask why he said one thing and delivered another.

Middleton has simply taken an unethical cheap shot. I’m disappointed Andrew Watts allowed Middleton’s hack job to slip through what normally is a very well edited and highly valuable site.

Once more, I agree Musk said “…ventilators…” and delivered CPAB/BPAB. No argument. The question is, after his ventilator comment, did Musk get different directions from medical or government authorities?

John Endicott
Reply to  John Endicott
April 16, 2020 4:32 am

Andrew Watts? Who is that? You berate others for not doing their due diligence when you can’t even do the due diligence of getting the name of the forum owner right (Hint: It’s Anthony Watts.

The question is, after his ventilator comment, did Musk get different directions from medical or government authorities?

Why not do *your* due diligence and ask Musk? After all that’s what you claim others should have done. Don’t ask of others what you are unwilling to do yourself.

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 10, 2020 6:32 am

Eloon Gantry said his plants would MANUFACTURE ventilators, instead he “purchased” something else entirely. You really going to defend him, yet again? Words have meanings, except when Eloon says something apparently.

Javert Chip
Reply to  2hotel9
April 10, 2020 11:41 am

2hotel9 (whom I’m beginning to suspect is a sock-puppet…)

Everybody understands what Musk actually said (“…ventilators…”); the question is were there follow-on conversations with authorities that resulted in Musk changing what he was to deliver.

You are obviously a brilliant student of everything Musk does, simply give a credible link (you opinion doesn’t even begin to count) demonstrating he wasn’t asked to build something different.

Frankly, the stronger your resistance to answering that simple question, the less credible anything you say on tis topic becomes.

2hotel9
Reply to  Javert Chip
April 11, 2020 4:35 am

Wow, facts just do not penetrate the thicket of Eloon love you live in. Once again, as is Eloon’s habit, he said one thing and did something totally different and you still worship him. Really doesn’t make you look to good. Rather sad, actually. Buh’bye.

John Endicott
Reply to  2hotel9
April 10, 2020 6:42 pm

javert, you are asking someone to prove a negative. Sorry, but that’s not how it works. You made the assertion (“Musk was asked to build something different”) its up to *you* to prove that assertion. (and, BTW, Musk didn’t *build* something different, he *purchased* it – contrary to his public claims of building “state-of-the-art ventilators”).

Keep trying to spin it all you want, but unless you can prove otherwise, the facts remains the Musk said he was building one thing and instead purchases something completely different. period.

Reply to  John Endicott
April 10, 2020 6:59 pm

re: “the facts remains the Musk said he was building one thing and instead purchases something completely different. period.”

Inflexible grade-school level thinking; better to keep an open-mind for something like this where the ‘treatment’ (patient breathing assistance for Covid-19) is in flux (changing) based on observations in the field, and we have MORE than just one or two authoritative accounts on this.

ALL the facts (for the purposes of ‘getting to the bottom of this’ in discussion) are NOT known.

Javert Chip
Reply to  2hotel9
April 10, 2020 11:02 pm

John Endicott

My mistake, but my considered reply to you “prove a negative” posted under your previous comment, which is 4-5 comments above. I’d appreciate your reading it & responding.

John Endicott
Reply to  2hotel9
April 16, 2020 4:35 am

Read and responded. Sorry it wasn’t sooner, but for whatever reason, there were several days where the site only showed the threads that were started in the past 24 hours, this is the first chance I’ve been able to see and revisit older threads.

2hotel9
Reply to  John Endicott
April 16, 2020 6:02 am

Been having general connectivity issues around here, almost as if there is a heavier than usual load on the intratoobesthingy or something. 😉

David Blenkinsop
Reply to  Henry Pool
April 9, 2020 11:14 am

Just speaking as a total non-doctor myself, I’ve been hearing for weeks now about how a ‘ventilator’ is the essential equipment for intensive care patients at greatest risk of dying, with intubation direct into the lungs.

It certainly comes as a surprise that Musk would brag about providing ‘ventilators’ that turn out to be relatively simple breathing assistance masks.

ResourceGuy
April 9, 2020 9:29 am

Washington state and other states will soon be sending their now not-needed ventilators back to the national reserve.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 9, 2020 11:38 am

Yes, GM and Ford are going to have to go back to manufactuing cars because the ventilator market is going to be flooded. Probably a lot of the medical supply market is going to be flooded with product soon.

Michael Jankowski
April 9, 2020 10:10 am

“… A CPAP generally just covers your nose. A BiPAP or BPAP covers both the nose and mouth…”

The difference between the two is that the CPAP is a continuous pressure (aside from ramping functions) whereas a BiPAP has a pressure for when the user inhales and a lower pressure as the user exhales. Mask selection is the same for either.

Allan Short
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 9, 2020 1:55 pm

No true Michael, my mask is one that fits over the nose only, the device gives one pressure when you breathe in, and a lower pressure when you exhale. This has been common for some time now. Suggest that you read up on the devices so that you can make informed statements.

Reply to  Allan Short
April 11, 2020 9:14 am

No Allan, Michael is absolutely correct. CPAP versus BiPAP machines have nothing to do with masks, which can either be “nasal pillows” or “full face masks”. So a person with a CPAP machine can use either “nasal pillows” or a “full face mask”. And a person with a BiPAP machine can also use either nasal pillows or a full face mask.

The choice of whether one uses “nasal pillows” or a “full face mask” depends on whether one breathes through one’s mouth when using nasal pillows. If one breathes through one’s mouth with nasal pillows, it will defeat the purpose of the CPAP or BiPAP machine, and a “full face mask” that covers the mouth will be required. Again, this is completely independent of the type of machine (CPAP or BiPAP…or APAP…or ASV :-))…being used.

I suggest you read up so you can make informed statements.

Toto
April 9, 2020 10:22 am

Ventilators are the answer to a different problem. They do not solve this problem, they make it worse.
https://blogs.webmd.com/public-health/20200407/coronavirus-in-context-do-covid-19-vent-protocols-need-a-second-look

Toto
Reply to  Toto
April 9, 2020 1:13 pm

Also look at the link given above by Alan D. McIntire:
https://www.newswars.com/bombshell-plea-from-nyc-icu-doctor-covid-19-a-condition-of-oxygen-deprivation-not-pneumonia/
which contains links to Dr. Cameron Kyle-Sidell’s YouTube videos.

Gunga Din
April 9, 2020 1:48 pm

Sounds familiar.
Promise one thing. Deliver another.
Just like “sustainable” Green energy.

Jeffery P
April 9, 2020 2:10 pm

The media nevers show the wrong images (extreme sarc) so I would not put too much faith in claiming these are CPAP machines until somebody actually examines one.

I think Musk is a flake, but he’s also pretty smart. It’s possible he is building the wrong machines but I will believe when better evidence comes to light. At this point, I consider this fake news.

Gordon Dressler
April 9, 2020 2:29 pm

Let’s see if I have the timeline and facts straight from the above article:

— March 18 : Tesla chief Elon Musk offered to start MANUFACTURING ventilators, stating he’ll have 1,200 ventilators ready to deliver by the week of April 1.

— March 23: Elon Musk s announced he had PROCURED 1,255 ventilators from China, and was shipping them to medical centers in the U.S.

— April 8: it is revealed by independent reporters, not by Elon Musk, that the PROCURED “VENTILATORS” aren’t medical ventilators at all, but instead are BPAP devices which are not life-support devices.

— April 9: waiting for an Elon Musk tweet that will walk it back.

Robert Terrell
April 9, 2020 3:01 pm

I have sleep apnea, and I use a CPAP machine, that looks exactly like the one shown. It DOES cover both my mouth and my nose. I have asked before if these machines might not help in this pandemic. Someone said maybe the BPAP machines would. Mine doesn’t seem able to pump enough air, at my setting of 14. They can be set for higher pressures. A mask that only covers your nose will allow you slip into a mouth-breathing mode, once you are asleep. I have tried those mask’s, and mine does. Breathing through my mouth makes my mouth SUPER dry, so I use the full-face mask, as shown in the photo. A BPAP machine, with oxygen supplementation, MIGHT serve as a usable ‘ventilator’.

Jay Johnson
April 9, 2020 4:46 pm

Interesting how many still take this rent-seeking conman at his worthless word. His Teslaron and TheranosX will soon collapse, and, like with Enron and Theranos, his scams and machinations will come to light. The rent-seeking conman will either go to jail, buy his way out of jail, or go on the run. Three-card Monty, anyone?!

When I get weary, or just need a little boost in morale, I take a gander at photos of his shiny Buck Rogers looking prop in South Texas that he says is to carry mankind beyond low-Earth orbit for the first time. Hilarious. The rent-seeking conman should go in to stand-up comedy. He can start with a bit on how he invented the tunnel; his Hyperloop?!

Walter Sobchak
April 9, 2020 6:59 pm

“Some doctors moving away from ventilators for coronavirus patients” By Mike Stobbe Associated Press April 8, 2020

NEW YORK (AP) As health officials around the world push to get more ventilators to treat coronavirus patients, some doctors are moving away from using the breathing machines when they can.

The reason: Some hospitals have reported unusually high death rates for coronavirus patients on ventilators, and some doctors worry that the machines could be harming certain patients.

The evolving treatments highlight the fact that doctors are still learning the best way to manage a virus that emerged only months ago. They are relying on anecdotal, real-time data amid a crush of patients and shortages of basic supplies.

Mechanical ventilators push oxygen into patients whose lungs are failing. Using the machines involves sedating a patient and sticking a tube into the throat. Deaths in such sick patients are common, no matter the reason they need breathing help.

Generally speaking, 40% to 50% of patients with severe respiratory distress die while on ventilators, experts say. But 80% or more of coronavirus patients placed on the machines in New York City have died, state and city officials say.

* * *

Only a few weeks ago in New York City, coronavirus patients who came in quite sick were routinely placed on ventilators to keep them breathing, said Dr. Joseph Habboushe, an emergency medicine doctor who works in Manhattan hospitals.

But increasingly, physicians are trying other measures first. One is having patients lie in different positions — including on their stomachs — to allow different parts of the lung to aerate better. Another is giving patients more oxygen through nose tubes or other devices. Some doctors are experimenting with adding nitric oxide to the mix, to help improve blood flow and oxygen to the least damaged parts of the lungs.

* * *
“The ventilator is not therapeutic. It’s a supportive measure while we wait for the patient’s body to recover,” said Dr. Roger Alvarez, a lung specialist with the University of Miami Health System in Florida, who is a leader in the effort to use nitric oxide to keep patients off ventilators for as long as possible.
* * *

otsar
April 9, 2020 7:37 pm

Cpap and Bi-pap machines run pressures fron 4 cm H2O to 20 H20. Somewhere around 20 cm H2O air begins to be forced into the digestive system, creating the danger of regurgitation. With a an intubation the digestive system is removed from the loop and pressures greater than 20 cm of H2O may ne used. Ventilators are considerably more sophisticated than C-PAP or BI-PAP, and require greater knowledge to program. Ventilators are tuned to the respiratory capabilities of the patient. In the programming mode the ventilator will characterize the lung volume, elasticity, and other characteristics of the patients lungs. The pulmonologist will then set the mode appropriate to the patient: constant CPAP, BI-PAP, constant volume, force missed breaths, and many more. For example: If the peep (Positive Exhalation End Pressure) is set too high, a patient whose right heart is compromised will have a problem with pumping blood into the lungs. The bottom line is, is that the ventilator has to be programmed by a pulmonologist. I suspect that due to a lack of pulmonologists, the ARDS pre-programmed protocol is being used in a dangerous manner.
Not all ventilators are dual limb (have an exhaust hose that is filtered). Ventilators come as a base model with features added as needed. The other problem with ventilators is that the patient has to be sedated and the tubes have to cleared of secretions frequently.
A very important piece of equipment that is not mentioned is the Vital Sign Monitor. A full featured one will measure: Oxygen saturation, CO2 output, ECG/EKG 12 electrode so assessments of heart function may be made, non-invasive and invasive blood pressure, temperature, with programmable alarms, and networking capability such that many patients may be monitored and recorded by software, and alert staff to problems.
Without Vital Sign Monitors the staff is mostly guessing.

observa
April 10, 2020 12:37 am

Apart from having an accurate body thermometer to check for fever and an inexpensive fingertip pulse oximeter on hand to check for haemoglobin oxygen saturation, as an insurance policy for early stage hypoxemia with Covid19 you could have an oxygen concentrator on hand to use in conjunction with the oximeter. After all providing oxygen rich air via canula (even mask perhaps?) with normal respiration but early stage compromised lung function should help fight off the infection. Any medicos care to comment on that?

2hotel9
Reply to  observa
April 10, 2020 6:47 am

I have been wondering about the oxygen concentration machines seen advertised for people with COPD and such ailments. Asked my orthosurgeon during my last appointment and she said her understanding is the level of lung obstruction is the key issue. It would help people who are breathing on their own, even with substantial loss of lung function. Once past a certain degree of function loss mechanical ventilation is required. Basically it is the treating physician’s call, which in many instances during this event appear to be superseded by directives from certain governmental agencies. Yes, we spent more time discussing this than the healing fracture of my right humerus, its doing fine, got to fill the appointment time with something they hardly have any patients coming in as it is.

Brent
April 10, 2020 1:41 am

I understand a patient being ventilated needs one on one full time nursing care. That is five nurses for one patient a week! The patient has to be unconscious during the time they are being ventilated. Also various other intensive care specialists, anesthetists, pulmonary specialists etc have to ready to act at very short notice. A patient on a BiPAP machine doesn’t require any such intensive nursing care and they are conscious (or asleep). So it is all very well to want heaps more ventilators but if you haven’t the staff to provide the required care they are of no use. There is also an argument that ventilators are safer for the intensive care staff. That may be true but given that the room is going to be full of the aerosolised SARS-COV-2 virus anyway https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763852 so does that make any difference. The staff must be gowned in full PPE anyway. I am an actuary who has specialised in health for more than 40 years not a doctor.

Sheri
April 10, 2020 6:04 am

Turns out he may be a visionary. Several sources yesterday said ventilators are overused in Covid 19 treatment and result in a much higher death rate. Or maybe he is just a fool….

PaulinaUS
April 10, 2020 1:16 pm

Wait. I have a question. What if the President had ordered CPAPs?

Wait. One more thing. Do we not manufacture CPAPs and BPAPs in the United States, or even in Australia?

DonM
Reply to  PaulinaUS
April 10, 2020 6:54 pm

If Trump had delivered CPAP’s when he said ventilators:

1) Wall to wall news about how incompetent he is.
2) Followed by wall to wall news about how dangerous he is.
3) Followed by stories about how they don’t need the CPAP’s … they have enough already and the stuff he sent is actually a detriment.
4) Followed by stories about how his family made money from the delivery.
5) Followed by stories about how the whole thing disproportionately harmed minorities.
6) Followed by a call by Schiff for an investigation.

Reply to  DonM
April 13, 2020 6:07 pm

Dom, why did you stop there, you were just getting to the good stuff.

Seriously, what is going on here?

2hotel9
Reply to  PaulinaUS
April 11, 2020 4:38 am

The President did not buy them, Eloon Gantry did, after publicly stating his plants would manufacture ventilators. Eloon is running a scam, as usual.

April 18, 2020 2:42 pm

Well, we can put the ‘ribbon’ on this one and call it done – Musk appears to have delivered as requested by various hospitals needing respiration-assisting equipment.

“Here’s what’s going on, and why Musk’s ventilator efforts have become controversial.”
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-ventilator-controversy-explained-2020-4

Also per Tim Pool’s report today (18th of April):

“Elon Musk Delivers EPIC CNN Smackdown Over Lies, CNN REFUSES To Correct, Doubles Down With Fake News”

2hotel9
Reply to  _Jim
April 19, 2020 6:54 am

I saw nothing on cnn, I read articles from 3 separate news papers which quoted hospital staff as to receiving cpap/bpap equipment and not ventilators. Getting your “news” from cnn? You already lost.

Reply to  2hotel9
April 19, 2020 7:38 am

re: “I saw nothing on cnn”

#1, NOT my problem and #2 I could give a cr*p either way. #3 If you’re so inept as to be unable to verify this story, I don’t feel for you, I pity you …

https://www.google.com/search?q=musk+cnn+venilators&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

2hotel9
Reply to  _Jim
April 21, 2020 7:56 am

So, the sources, the actual facilities which received cpap/bpap instead of ventilators, ventilators Eloon Gantry said he would manufacture, are irrelevant, only the lies of cnn matter. Got it!

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