“Climate Debate of the Decade” at WVU – not so hot

A few days ago I had mentioned that the climate debate happening today at the University of West Virginia West Virginia University at Charleston would be available on “pay per view” via a web feed.

I subscribed, because I’m charged with carrying the news of climate here at WUWT. Unfortunately, whoever setup the web feed had no clue as to how to do so. The audio was full of echoes and distorted (probably because they positioned a microphone rather than tap directly into the PA system audio), and the video camera was so poorly placed that you couldn’t even make out people’s faces, much less the postage stamp sized slides on the projection screen. The person who setup the camera foolishly let the stage lights into the shot, and that screwed up the camera iris.

Poor Michael Mann (at the podium) has no face as a result.

Here is a screencap from the web feed:

While I applaud the idea of a web feed, the execution was a complete failure IMHO. Fortunately, I have people in the audience that will file a report, and hopefully have photos with more clarity.

 

Dr. Judith Curry posted her presentation on her website just before the event went live, so since I can’t get anything useful from the web feed, here it is in entirety.

 

1    Cover

Good evening everyone.  Thank you very much for coming, I look forward to our conversation this evening.

 

2   Agreement/disagreement

There is widespread agreement on these basic tenets:

  • Surface temperatures have increased since 1880
  • Humans are adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere
  • Carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases have a warming effect on the planet

However, there is substantial disagreement about the issues of greatest consequence:

  • Whether the recent warming has been dominated by human causes
  • How much the planet will warm in the 21stcentury
  • Whether warming is ‘dangerous’
  • How we should respond to the warming

I have bolded the two issues that are the focus of this conversation.

Now there is nothing wrong or bad about scientific disagreement.  In fact, the scientific process thrives in the face of disagreement, which motivates research in new directions.

 

3   Disagreement: causes of climate change

On the left hand side is the perspective of a stable climate that changes in response to changes in atmospheric CO2.  In other words, carbon dioxide as the climate control knob.  It’s a simple and seductive idea.

However some scientists think that this is a misleading oversimplification.  They regard climate as a complex nonlinear dynamical system, with no simple cause and effect.  Climate can shift naturally in unexpected ways, owing to natural internal variability associated with large-scale ocean circulations.

 

4    Elephant

Now these two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. Proponents of the CO2as control knob idea acknowledge the existence natural variability but dismiss it as noise that averages out.  Proponents of the natural variability arguments acknowledge the impact of CO2, but consider it to be a modest wedge that projects onto the natural modes of climate variability.

The point of this cartoon is that if you only look at one part of the elephant, you will misdiagnose.  You need to look at the entire elephant.

The bottom line is that we don’t yet have a unified theory of climate variability and change that integrates all this.

 

5    Disagreement: cause of climate change

So does this rather arcane scientific debate actually matter?  Well, yes it does.

If you assume that carbon dioxide is the control knob for climate, than you can control climate by reducing CO2emissions.

If you assume that climate change primarily occurs naturally, then the Earth’s climate is largely uncontrollable, and reducing CO2emissions will do little or nothing to change the climate.

My personal assessment aligns with the right-hand side, emphasizing natural variability.  However, the IPCC and the so-called consensus aligns with the left hand side.  About 10 years ago, I also aligned with left hand side, because I thought supporting the IPCC consensus was the responsible thing to do.

Here is how and why I changed my mind.

 

6    Policy cart before scientific horse

In 2010, I started digging deeper, both into the science itself and the politics that were shaping the science.  I came to realize that the policy cart was way out in front of the scientific horse.

The 1992 UN Climate Change treaty was signed by 190 countries before the balance of scientific evidence suggested even a discernible human influence on global climate.  The 1997 Kyoto Protocol was implemented before we had any confidence that most of the warming was caused by humans.  There was tremendous political pressure on the IPCC scientists to present findings that would support these treaties, which resulted in a manufactured consensus.

 

7     You find what you shine a light on

Here is how the so-called consensus and increasing confidence in human-caused global warming became a self-fulfilling prophesy.

You find what you shine a light on.  In other words, we have only been looking at one part of the elephant.

Motivated by the UN Climate treaty and the IPCC and government funding, climate scientists have focused primarily on human-caused climate change.  Other factors important for understanding climate variability and change have been relatively neglected. I have highlighted long-term ocean oscillations and solar indirect effects, since I think that these are potentially very important on decadal to century timescales.

 

8     The sea level rise alarm

One of the most consequential impacts of a warming climate is sea level rise. These two statements by climate scientists typify the alarm over sea level rise:

Is this alarm justified by the scientific evidence?

 

9 Is CO2 the control knob for global sea level rise?

This figure illustrates the challenge of attributing long-term sea level rise to CO2emissions. The blue curve shows sea level change since 1800, measured from tide gauges.

The red curve shows global emissions of carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels. You can see that global sea levels were rising steadily long before fossil fuels emissions became substantial. You can also see that the steep increase in emissions following 1950 is associated with very little sea level rise between 1950 and 1990.

An uptick in sea level rise occurred in the 1990’s, which is circled.  Lets take a closer look to see what is causing this.

 

10   What is causing recent sea level rise?

Since 1993, global satellite data have provided valuable information about sea level variations and glacier mass balance.  This figure shows a recent analysis of the budget of sea level rise since 1993.  You can see that overall the rate of sea level rise has increased since 1993.

What is causing this increase?  The turquoise region on the bottom of the diagram relates directly to expansion from warming.  You actually see a decrease until about 2009, which has been attributed to the cooling impact following the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1992.

What stands out as causing the increase in the rate of sea level rise is the growing contribution from Greenland, which is the dark blue area on top.  Hence the recent increase in the rate of sea level rise is caused by Greenland melting.

 

11  Variations in Greenland glacier mass balance

So, is the Greenland melting caused by increasing CO2 emissions?

This figure shows the Greenland mass balance for the 20th century. Ice sheet mass balance is defined as increase from snowfall, minus the decrease from melting.  You can see the negative mass balance values after 1995, reflecting mass loss that raises sea level.  If you look earlier in the record, you see even larger negative values particularly in the 1920’s and 1930’s.  Clearly, the high surface mass loss rates of recent years are not unprecedented, even in the 20thcentury.

Greenland was anomalously warm in the 1930’s and 1940’s. What caused this?

The bottom figure shows variations in the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, which is an important mode of natural internal climate variability.  The AMO is a powerful control on the climate of Greenland.

Ingeneral, years with positive AMO index are associated with a mass loss for Greenland, whereas negative AMO index is associated with a mass gain.

 

12  IPCC AR5 quotes on sea level rise

From this analysis, I can only conclude that CO2 emissions are not the main cause of sea level rise since the mid 19thcentury.

The scientific evidence that I’ve shown you on the preceding slides is well known to the IPCC.  Here are some statements that the most recent IPCC report made on sea level change and Greenland: 

13 To what extent are man-made CO2 emissions contributing to climate change?

I’ve been asked to respond to the question “To what extent are man-made CO2 emissions contributing to climate change?”

The short answer is:  ‘we don’t know.’ The reason is that we don’t know how to disentangle natural internal variability from the effects of CO2–driven warming

Even the IPCC doesn’t claim to know exactly. The most recent IPCC assessment report says it is ‘extremely likely’ to be  ‘more than half.’ ‘More than half’ is not very precise.

Given the IPCC’s neglect of multi-decadal and longer time scales of natural internal variability, I regard the extreme confidence of their conclusion to be unjustified

So here is my personal assessment, using the jargon of the IPCC:  Man-made CO2emissions are as likely as not to contribute less than 50% of the recent warming

 

14  Should we reduce emissions to prevent warming?

Even if you believe the climate model projections, there is still genuine disagreement regarding whether a rapid acceleration away from fossil fuels is the appropriate policy response.

One side argues that reducing CO2emissions are critical for preventing future dangerous warming of the climate.  The other side argues that any reduction in warming would be minimal and at high cost, and that the  ‘cure’ could be worse than the ‘disease’.

 

15   Climate pragmatism

What makes most sense to me is Climate Pragmatism, which has been formulated by the Hartwell group.  Climate pragmatism has 3 pillars:

  • Accelerate energy innovation
  • Build resilience to extreme weather
  • No regrets pollution reduction

These policies provide near-term socioeconomic & environmental benefits and have justifications independent of climate mitigation & adaptation

 These are no regrets policies that do not require agreement about climate science or the risks of uncontrolled greenhouse gases

16   Madhouse effect

I would like to make a few comments on the state of the scientific and public debate on climate change.

Here is my take on the Madhouse effect.  The madhouse that concerns me is one that has been created by climate scientists.  The madhouse is characterized by

  • Rampant overconfidence in an overly simplistic theory of climate change
  • Enforcement of a politically-motivated, manufactured ‘consensus’
  • Attempts to stifle scientific and policy debates
  • Activism and advocacy for their preferred politics and policy
  • Self-promotion and ‘cashing in’
  • Public attacks on other scientists that do not support the ‘consensus’

Hmmm . . . maybe I should write a book.

 

17 Personal statement

In closing, I would like to make a personal statement, to clarify my motives

I regard my job as a scientist to critically evaluate evidence and to continually challenge and reassess conclusions drawn from the evidence.

A year ago I resigned my tenured faculty position because of academic political pressures that interfered with doing my job.  My resignation was a direct result of ‘science madhouse effect’ discussed on the previous slide.

I am now working in the private sector as President of Climate Forecast Applications Network

My direct engagement with public is via my blog Climate Etc.  where we discuss a broad range of topics related to climate science and policy.  I hope you’ll join us at judithcurry.com.

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June 12, 2018 8:54 pm

Kudos to Dr. Curry !
I am 100% in your camp on all of the slides your presented. That’s how real scientists think!

dodgy geezer
June 12, 2018 9:50 pm

…There is widespread agreement on these basic tenets:
………
……
Carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases have a warming effect on the planet

Really?

There is widespread agreement that if you take a bottle of clean air with no CO2 in it, and a bottle of air with some CO2 in it, it should get slightly hotter in the sunshine. Perhaps I should say that there is widespread agrement that there is a mechanism which has this effect.

But whether it actually operates to warm the planet is a different question. We know that CO2 can increase and the planet’s temperature can decrease at the same time. We know that the planet is a complex system, and that increasing CO2 might also increase vegetation growth, which might have a cooling effect greater than the radiation absorbtion mechanism heating. How can we be sure what the total effect of increasing CO2 is?

I think that all you can say is that there is agreement that this meghanism exists – together with many other mechanisms which we know we know little about. And that the total impact is one of those things we know little about….

Alley
Reply to  dodgy geezer
June 13, 2018 4:28 am

What about CO2’s fingerprints like a cooling stratosphere?

What about the fact that no other explanation has been given besides “there might be something else happening?”

Giles Bointon
Reply to  Alley
June 13, 2018 6:28 am

When there is evidence that ‘something else is happening’ that is true scientific honesty. If you claim to know all the answers and that the science is settled, then that is non-scientific dishonesty.

Alley
Reply to  Giles Bointon
June 13, 2018 10:04 am

Giles, I would suggest you stop pretending that scientists have said that they know all the answers. Would help.

MarkW
Reply to  Alley
June 13, 2018 7:46 am

Funny, a few years ago they were telling us that CO2 was supposed to make the stratosphere warmer.
Then they found out that the stratosphere was cooler, we suddenly start hearing “we predicted that”.

Alley
Reply to  MarkW
June 13, 2018 10:05 am

No, they real climate scientists have been telling us that for decades. Maybe you missed the memo, but your lie is not true because you missed this simple fact.

tty
Reply to  dodgy geezer
June 13, 2018 4:36 am

“There is widespread agreement that if you take a bottle of clean air with no CO2 in it, and a bottle of air with some CO2 in it, it should get slightly hotter in the sunshine.”

No. There is widespread agreement that if you take a bottle of clean air with no CO2 in it, and a bottle of air with some CO2 in it, and put them close to a source of LWIR (which the sun isn’t) the CO2 bottle should get slightly hotter.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  dodgy geezer
June 13, 2018 5:13 am

“There is widespread agreement on these basic tenets:
………
……
Carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases have a warming effect on the planet

Really?

There is widespread agreement that if you take a bottle of clean air with no CO2 in it, and a bottle of air with some CO2 in it, it should get slightly hotter in the sunshine. Perhaps I should say that there is widespread agrement that there is a mechanism which has this effect.

But whether it actually operates to warm the planet is a different question.”

Yes, and a question that has not been answered.

What we do have are guesses about how much heat CO2 will add to the atmosphere. Guesses which seem to go lower every time we get a new evaluation, and guesses which do not take into account possible negative feedbacks.

So claiming CO2 is warming the planet is a little premature.

Susan
June 13, 2018 12:00 am

The elephant cartoon should become a permanent heading on this site.
Susan

Reply to  Susan
June 13, 2018 1:55 am

Gee, thanks.

Alan Tomalty
June 13, 2018 1:12 am

Unless there was some agreement between Curry and Moore to split up the subtopics (I dont have access to Moore’s presentation) there was a lot that Curry left out.

The most important topic being the failure of the climate models. Also she should have said that no database in the world shows any more extreme weather events than there ever were. Also that 10 of the 13 weather stations in Antarctica show no warming in last 60 years. No heat island effects there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fact that Greenland lost 20 % of its ice when warming was up to 3-5C warmer in period from 8000 to 5000 years ago. It took 3000 years to lose 20 %.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fact that ice cores in Antarctica show that Antarctica didnt melt 120000 years ago when temp was 5C higher. The reason we know it didn’t melt is that ice core data go back 800000 years.

I could go on and on ad infinitum of important subtopics that Curry left out. However since time was of the essence we need more debates.

Wiliam Haas
June 13, 2018 1:39 am

1. There is no consensus on the validity of the AGW conjecture. Scientists never registered and voted on the matter. But even if they had, science is not a democracy, The laws of science are not some form of legislation. Scientific theories are not validated via a voting process. So such a consensus, if it existed would be meaningless.

2. Radiametric calculations, performed decades ago, came up with a value of 1.2 degrees C for a doubling of CO2 without regard to any feedback effects. Kyoji Kimoto has pointed out that this calculation ignores the fact that a doubling of CO2 would cause a slight decrease in the dry lapse rate in the troposphere which is a cooling effect. This cooling effect reduces the climate sensitivity of CO2 by more than a factor of 20 yielding a climate sensitivity of CO2 of less than .06 degrees C which is a trivial amount.

3. According to the AGW conjecture, CO2 based warming will cause more H2O to enter the atmosphere which in turn causes more warming because H2O is a greenhouse gas, with LWIR absorption bands. For those that believe in the radiametric greenhouse effect, molecule per molecule, H2O is a stronger absorber of IR than is CO2 and because there is so much more H2O in the Earth’s atmosphere then is CO2, H2O is by far the primary greenhouse gas. What the AGW conjecture completely ignores is that besides being a greenhouse gas, H2O is a primary coolant in the Earth’s atmosphere moving heat energy from the Earth’s surface, which is mostly some form of H2O, to where clouds form via the heat of vaporization. According to some models, more heat energy is moved by H2O via the heat of vaporization then by both convection and LWIR absorption band radiation combined. The net cooling effect of H2O is evidenced by the fact that the wet lapse rate is significantly less than the dry lapse rate in the troposphere, Instead of providing a positive feedback and alplifying the warming effect of CO2, H2O provides a negative feedback which diminishes any warming effect ath CO2 might have. Some like to assume that the amplification of CO2 based warming by H2O is a factor of 3 whereby a more realistic amplification factor would be 1/3, yielding a climate sensitivity of CO2 of less than .02 degrees C which is an even more trivial amount.

4 The AGW conjecture depends upon the existence of a radiant greenhouse effect caused by trace gases in the Earth’s atmosphere with LWIR absorption bands. A real greenhouse does not stay warm because of the heat trapping action of so called greenhouse gases. A real greenhouse stays warm because the glass reduces cooling by convection. It is really a convective and not a radiative greenhouse effect that keeps a real greenhouse warm. So too on Earth where gravity limits cooling by convection. The Earth’s convective greenhouse effect is a function of the heat capacity of the atmosphere, the height of the troposphere and gravity. As derived from first principals, the Earth’s convective greenhouse effect keeps the surface of the Earth on average 33 degrees C warmer than it would be otherwise. 33 degrees C is the amount derived from first principals and 33 degrees C is the amount that has been measured. Additional warming from a radiant greenhouse effect has not been detected. A radiant greenhouse effect has not been observed in a real greenhouse, in the Earth’s climate system, or anywhere else in the solar system for that matter. The radiant greenhouse effect is science fiction so hence the AGW conjecture is science fiction..

5. Based on the paleoclimate record and the work done with models, one can conclude that the climate change we have been experiencing is caused by the sun and the oceans over which mankind has no control. There is no real evidence that CO2 has any effect on climate and plenty of scientific rational that the climate sensitivity of CO2 is effectively zero. There are many good reasons to be conserving on the use of fossil fuels but climate change is not one of them. .

MarkW
Reply to  Wiliam Haas
June 13, 2018 7:49 am

Throughout history, there have been many instances of scientific “consensus” that later proved to be wrong.

Alley
Reply to  MarkW
June 13, 2018 2:56 pm

Most have been right. If you’re standing on the “skeptic” side of the most basic “knowns” for a science that has been around for more than a century, then it’s time to reconsider whether standing with a very small minority of qualified scientists is reason enough to boast “but they can sometimes be wrong.”

I’m sure there are a handful of doctors who think incense is a cure for mumps.

If CO2 is not the primary forcing as some have been screaming for a couple of decades, how is it that they don’t have a reasonable alternative to the obvious warming? Earth is warming, stratosphere is cooling, CO2 levels rising, nights warming faster than days, rising tropopause. What could be causing all of that?

Reply to  Wiliam Haas
June 16, 2018 8:53 am

2. Radiametric calculations, performed decades ago, came up with a value of 1.2 degrees C for a doubling of CO2 without regard to any feedback effects. Kyoji Kimoto has pointed out that this calculation ignores the fact that a doubling of CO2 would cause a slight decrease in the dry lapse rate in the troposphere which is a cooling effect. This cooling effect reduces the climate sensitivity of CO2 by more than a factor of 20 yielding a climate sensitivity of CO2 of less than .06 degrees C which is a trivial amount.

Any effect of CO2 on lapse rate would be trivial, the effect on cp would be less than 0.1%

Zigmaster
June 13, 2018 3:31 am

Whilst Judith Curry is a great advocate for the sceptical cause as a scientist she seems wedded to the concept that CO2 causes some global warming and then tends to argue about the extent . As a layman I feel that no one has been able to convince me that there is in fact any correlation and causation between CO2 and global warming. Anecdotally I know that my gut feel is correct and the temperature has been much more random in its movement than CO2. If the initial hypothesis had never been put forward I suspect that no one would’ve all of a sudden thought ” gee it’s getting hot, must be all that horrible CO2.” She also refers in climate pragmatism to no regrets pollution reduction. I assume this is a reference to CO2 and if that is correct disagree that under any definition of pollution CO2 does not fit the definition. In fact CO2 is the exact opposite of what a normal human being would envisage as being characteristic of a pollutant.

June 13, 2018 4:58 am

Here is how climate change works. The climate on our planet is affected by several factors all working together to keep a perfect balance on our planet.

First the radiant heat generated at the core through the mantle that is relatively constant. Then the photons generated at the Sun, Those are variable dependent on differing factors. Time of the year affects the distance between the Earth and the Sun, Also the tilt of the Earth.

In the summer the northern hemisphere is tilted towards the Sun, but the planet is the farthest away from the sun in its orbit. In the winter the southern hemisphere is tilted towards the sun, But closest to the Sun. In the spring and fall the exposure is equal.

The landmass in the northern hemisphere is 68% of the planet 32% in the southern hemisphere, about 6 percent of that is Antarctica which is mostly covered in ice and snow, reflecting most of the photons (light) away. So it does not store heat from the Sun.

The land masses on the planet absorb and store more energy received from the sun much longer when the solar output is stronger in the summer. The oceans absorb more energy as light is able to penetrate deeper to release that energy, Where the land masses only receive that energy at the surface. The energy or heat on the land will penetrate deeper through thermal expansion when the energy is unable to radiate as fast due to higher temperatures at the surface. Resulting in more stored energy. A 2 to 3 degree increase in the land masses will raise the temperature of the planet the water on the planet acts like a heat sink releasing the energy into the air much quicker through evaporation, that heat leaves the planet also contributing to higher air temps.

The amount of energy we receive from the sun varies by the amount of fuel it receives from the planets in the form of gas. The gases leaving the planet in the solar system flow like jet stream toward the Sun. When they reach the surface more photons are produced radiating out from that side of the Sun.

when our planet is in alignment we receive more energy. During the summer with the northern hemisphere facing the sun that energy is stored in the land masses longer than the oceans. When there are more planet aligned in Earth summer orbit we receive a lot more energy for the planet to store. This started to happen in the second half of the 1900’s then peaked in the 1990’s and the planet warmed. All the planets orbit the Sun at different speeds. So this takes century’s to reoccur. Mercury takes 88 days, Venus 224.7 days, Mars 1.88 years, Jupiter 11.86 years, Saturn 29.4 years, Uranus 84 years, Neptune 164.79 years and Pluto takes 248 years. The results from this warming also has side effects. The natural effects are stronger storms with more heat or energy to fuel Hurricanes.

As the land masses warm more moisture is drawn from them through evaporation causing drought conditions which leads to less plant growth. The effect of this is higher co2 levels, a side effect not cause of climate change. Also with warmer drier land masses we have more volcanic activity from lower underground water levels cooling magma flows. That is the largest contributor to co2 levels on the planet. The levels have risen over the last several decades .0012% or the equivalent to about a thimble of water out of a gallon. That amount is not harmful or noticeable to humans and very necessary for plant life catch back up after natural temperature increase on the planet. Now Co or carbon monoxide on the other hand is very harmful to human. Co is what comes from the Exhaust in car, power plants, House fires and Forrest fire. But lucky for us carbon monoxide has a negative polarity like helium, hydrogen and methane so these gasses leave the planet and are pulled into the sun. That is why you stay on the ground if you are in a burning building.

When the planet align with Earth winter orbit the southern hemisphere receive that majority of the energy from the Sun. Since the southern hemisphere is mostly Ocean which is more efficient at releasing that heat into the atmosphere, it then can radiate into space and the planet does not warm.

Another factor in the planets climate is in addition to gasses from the planets are the vortices created by the planets. These vortices are the result of electrons flowing towards the Sun and protons flowing away from the Sun.

When the protons and electrons pass a planet vortices are created. When the Earth passes through these vortices it pushes the Jet stream around. Depending on the rotation of the Earth and the time of year it can bring extreme hot or cold weather. In 2014 when we passed by Jupiter in January the polar vortex was pushed deep into the south. Then 8 days later the gas jet stream coming off Jupiter gave us a follow up blast of arctic weather.

Another major factor is solar flares. These are created when the gasses flow into the Sun in tandem with the vortices created by the planets. The gasses flowing into the Sun flow towards the equator of the Sun then flow out towards the poles evenly then burning on the surface very evenly. When the magnetic vortices pass through those gasses in the atmosphere the gas gets swirled around creating solar flares. These solar flare burn more violently creating more photons leaving the Sun. When this energy reaches Earth the planet warms. We had a perfect set up for this in the 1990’s. With Neptune, Uranus both slow orbiting planet the Saturn passing by also for a few years as well as the faster orbiting planets.

Depending on the season the effects vary in the spring we tend to have rain when we pass by other planets. The disturbance to our atmosphere combined with the extra energy from the Sun, Pulling more moisture into the atmosphere brings the rainy season. In the summer the extra energy warms the land masses fueling more powerful storms, with stronger winds and tornado’s. By fall the oceans have started to warm providing the conditions for Hurricanes to start to form. The planet uses this process to keep a perfect balance to the global climate. Even the varied orbit around the Sun is designed to balance climate of the planet. Then winter comes to our hemisphere to cool things down.

After looking at all the processes happening I can’t help but think that every process is to recapture the earth original shape round and covered with water. Amazing Planet!!!

To summarize the planet is in control of the climate by natural process. That doesn’t mean we should not be good steward of our planet, pollution is a nasty thing to have to live with.

The vortices pass our planet when aligned with any of the planets in the solar system as well as the older smaller planets past Pluto. There are some other planets out there we have not discovered yet so on days when we have what appears to be unexplained disturbances in the atmosphere, You astronomer’s may want to point your telescopes in that direction you may find the next ancient planet. After we pass the planet depending on how far it is from us. Since the gasses flow much slower it takes about 4 days for Mars gas to reach us. About 8 days for Jupiter, 12 for Saturn, 16 for Uranus, 20 for Neptune. After we pass through that gas jet stream about 16 days later we will be in alignment with the gas reaching the surface of the Sun, Receiving higher amounts of photons or energy from the Sun, also generating some solar flares. The effects are subtle so don’t expect to be blown away, But they are there.

Norb Franxman

Franxmanco@aol.com

knr
June 13, 2018 6:29 am

At this stage we can ask a simply question , do we currently have the ability to correctly measure in a manner that matches good experimentally design for such issues as range , accuracy , coverage etc , all the variables involved in climate ?
If that cannot be answered by yes , that we do not ‘known ‘ we can only guess .
And no amount of computing power, or models , changes GIGO , it merely makes it work faster .

And that is before we get the reason why proxies , such has ‘magic tress ‘ are needed .

In short we cannot offer an the ability to take these measurements that achieves good scientific practice, and this is situation that gets considerable worse when you look at historic data which is significant given this question of change over time not one based on a current set of measurements.

Alley
Reply to  knr
June 13, 2018 1:24 pm

You don’t need to know all forcings, and even if you cannot know exactly the percent that CO2 is as a farcing, you can look to answers such as “if it was CO2, what do we know would happen besides warming?”

For example, if the stratosphere was cooling, that would be because of CO2 and not the sun.

Complex systems can change with large forcings that overshadow small ones. If your temperature spikes to 105°F, look to the infected wound and not some other random issue that could possibly cause a spike.

And having a doctor tell you that your body temp has been higher before, and he doesn’t know what is causing the fever because your body is very complex, is not much of an answer. You need to have something else to replace the consensus, not just pretend that it is wrong.

Mr.
Reply to  Alley
June 13, 2018 2:31 pm

But if “the science” was evidentially acceptable, there would be no reason for a “consensus” in any way, shape or form.
In other words, the evidence would be, well – self evident, inarguable.
Nobody would have to lend their name in support of such evidence.
And therefore, no career opportunities in researching & supporting self-evident facts.
As has been previously observed, manmade climate change will cease to exist as a proposition or hypothesis the moment grants dry up.

Alley
Reply to  Mr.
June 13, 2018 3:43 pm

Agreed. Why there is still this muddying of waters is beyond me too. No matter how many disciplines come the the same conclusions (earth is warming, it’s primarily CO2) there will be people who think there must be some other answer.

And yes, it’s interesting that once you do point out that there is a consensus, that the reference itself causes another uproar that science is not a consensus. Of course they forgot that the consensus was backed by science, and was issues because f silly things like the Oregon Petition.

TDBraun
June 13, 2018 9:27 am

Curry’s presentation is very clear and reasonable. I’d like to compare with the other presentations if you have a way to print them here.

Alley
June 13, 2018 1:05 pm

Have you noticed that Moore has not been mentioned much? His 15 minutes were mostly rants, and it was embarrassing. Why he gets invited is amazing.

fonzie
Reply to  Alley
June 13, 2018 1:34 pm

(any man who has placed himself between a seal and a bunch of angry men with clubs deserves an invite)…

Alley
Reply to  fonzie
June 13, 2018 2:36 pm

He certainly talked as though eh was clubbed, but nobody was clubbing him. He talked like he hadn’t any sleep for a few days, and the others (Curry included) left him alone.

I saw the exchange, and there’s no way it doesn’t come across as “old man yelling to get off his lawn” even in the video.

fonzie
Reply to  Alley
June 13, 2018 3:51 pm

Alley, do you really think that your brand of progressivism is the way forward for humanity? (oddly phrased question, i know, but i think you get fonzie’s drift)…

Alley
Reply to  fonzie
June 14, 2018 9:55 am

I see that you did not hear him speak.

And yes, the audience was laughing at him, not with him. It was cringeworthy, and I felt bad for him.

Why do you think your brand of insults is the way forward for a science topic?

Chino780
June 13, 2018 1:26 pm

Is there a transcript of Mann’s presentation anywhere?

Reply to  Chino780
June 13, 2018 3:02 pm

Of course there is.
But it will require an FOIA request and a bunch of lawyers to see it. 8- )

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