
Guest essay by Eric Worrall
What new narrative will replace the climate doomsday scare? Elon Musk has not abandoned traditional scare stories such as the looming population crisis, but he seems to be making more effort than most to market test radical revisions of the tired carbon-doom effort.
Elon Musk: ‘Robots will be able to do everything better than us’
Catherine Clifford
Elon Musk is certain that robots will be able to do your job better than you.
And even the billionaire CEO of Tesla and SpaceX is not sure what to do about that.
“There certainly will be job disruption. Because what’s going to happen is robots will be able to do everything better than us. … I mean all of us,” says Musk, speaking to the National Governors Association on Saturday.
“Yeah, I am not sure exactly what to do about this. This is really the scariest problem to me, I will tell you.”
…
“The thing that is the most dangerous — and it is the hardest to … get your arms around because it is not a physical thing — is a deep intelligence in the network.
“You say, ‘What harm can a deep intelligence in the network do?’ Well, it can start a war by doing fake news and spoofing email accounts and doing fake press releases and by manipulating information,” Musk says to the bipartisan gathering of U.S. governors.
…
Read more (includes video): http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/17/elon-musk-robots-will-be-able-to-do-everything-better-than-us.html
The AI scare has a lot of potential. Back in January this year I predicted that fear of malevolent artificial super-intelligence is a likely candidate to replace the failing climate scare.
Hollywood has been supplying the groundwork for the new scare, with a steady stream of stories which include strong AI. Many of the films are horror stories about AI gone wrong.
Table from the January Post (updated: added “Alien: Covenant”), original source Wikipedia
| Year | Count | Movies |
|---|---|---|
| 2001 | 1 | A.I. Artificial Intelligence |
| 2002 | 1 | S1M0NE |
| 2003 | 3 | The Matrix Reloaded, Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, The Matrix Revolutions |
| 2004 | 1 | I, Robot |
| 2005 | 1 | The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy |
| 2007 | 1 | Transformers |
| 2008 | 3 | Eagle Eye, Iron Man, WALL-E |
| 2009 | 3 | Terminator Salvation, Moon, Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen |
| 2011 | 2 | Real Steel, Transformers: Dark of the Moon |
| 2012 | 3 | Prometheus, Robot & Frank, Total Recall |
| 2013 | 4 | Her, Iron Man 3, The Machine, Pacific Rim |
| 2014 | 7 | Automata, Big Hero 6, Interstellar, Robocop (2014 film), Transcendence, Transformers: Age of Extinction, X-Men: Days of Future Past |
| 2015 | 8 | Ex Machina, Chappie, Tomorrowland, Avengers: Age of Ultron, Terminator Genisys, aka Terminator 5, Star Wars: The Force Awakens, Uncanny, Psycho-pass: The Movie |
| 2016 | 3 | Max Steel, Morgan, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |
| 2017 | 3 (so far) | Ghost in the Shell (2017 film), Transformers: The Last Knight, Alien: Covenant |
Good climate scare movies are less common. Other than hilights like “A.I. Artificial Intelligence” (2001), “The Day After Tomorrow” (2004), “An Inconvenient Truth” (2006) and “Snowpiercer” (2014), and the occasional self published effort by activists who clearly wish climate was a bigger issue, production quality climate fiction films have been thin on the ground.
The climate movement will still have a place if the AI scare takes off. The imaginary future world in the Terminator franchise, scorched by nuclear fire and continuously trampled by vast death dealing robots is probably not a green paradise. A.I. Artificial Intelligence was set in a world broken by climate change. Fear of a malevolent corporate AI as an expression and ultimate realisation of mankind’s greed and hubris and over-exploitation of natural resources has obvious potential as a future green narrative.
Is AI a risk? This is the beauty of the new AI scare. Nobody really knows what the risks are, so you can make up pretty much anything you want. I suspect like any new technology AI will create risks – but development of AI will also create new means to combat and contain those risks, and to address many other problems which currently seem unsolvable.
If the AI scare takes off, at the very least it will bring a fresh new injection of uncertainty and fear to a tired and fading climate eco-scare story.
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Artificial …?
If a robot can do everything better than we can, did the robot create itself? No, it wasn’t good enough to do so.
Although the first robot didn’t create itself, (Man didn’t create itself either) Like man, that doesn’t mean the robotic process won’t be subject to evolution, potentially evolving to the point of self replecation
SasjaL
July 17, 2017 at 9:32 pm
Artificial …?
—————–
Yeah, too cheap……swap that for “Alien” and it sounds or feels more realistic.. 🙂
It still remains with in the same “AI” contextual meaning…….:)
I think it best to absolutely flood all forms of communication with so many scare stories that the wolf-wolf syndrome enters the collective conscience, thereby nullifying any hidden political agendas. (Like what was done during World War II when allied bombers emitted metal chaff to throw off ground radar units used with antiaircraft guns.)
Machines/robots will not take over until/if they become sentient. You cannot make a computer become sentient by adding more and more CPU and ram power. It has to be self aware and think outside programming.
The program itself is not aware, but simply code that the CPU(s) run in a predetermined manner. No computer will ever pass the turing test. It cannot compete with a sentient opponent.
Depends on the intelligence of the sentient being? I am sure there are many human beings that would fail the Turing test right now! Some of them have posted on this thread maybe? How do know I’m not an AI?
I would have put a “you” in the right place?!?
“I would have put a “you” in the right place?!?”
How do we know that’s not a ploy of your AI self, trying to throw us off?
“I am sure there are many human beings that would fail the Turing test right now! ”
cash me outside how bout dat
The capacity for judgement isn’t the same thing as sentience, and decision making can be classified as a judgement process, and hey presto the danger is therefore much closer than we think. All we have to do is grant computers decision making powers which impact on the lives of humans . . .!? Oops.. . ! Ok, so we’re there already! Keep upscaling the process and sooner or later you have scenarios developing which get closer and closer to that depicted in the later seasons of the brilliant US tv series Person of Interest, though at least one of the AIs in that series (The Machine) was supposedly sentient. The crucial quality though is decision making power based on superior processing ability . . . Who decides when it has gone too far . . . The danger in this isn’t the automated decision making processes, it’s the sentient creatures who have the power to decide how far it goes . . . . Now that is scary!
Until someone can explain how the computers in our head became sentient, I’m not going to declare that it is impossible for man made computers to become sentient.
Regardless of how, it’s a really, really good trick.
Roy,
I wish I could be as confident as you that a computer will NEVER pass the Turing Test. There are many people who strongly disagree with your unsupported claim. However, computers do have a handicap in passing the test. They would need to be capable of lying to pass the test!
There must be the hint of more subsidies for this scoundrel to be interested!
two oldies on the same theme:
Colossus: The Forbin Project (1970?)
2001 Space Odyssey
You’re late to the party, Frank.
Its not the “artificial ” intelligence that is the problem…
Its the automatons programmed in schools by the far-left social programmers.
Programmed…. .. and without intelligence.
Andy, this may strengthen your points.
http://eheadlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/StraightOuttaHarvard.mp4
Good-looking and great at satire.. sweeeet !!! 🙂
Of what use is robotic labor if there are no paychecks to buy the products they create and no income tax to pay for government? It is a very poor business model that doesn’t scale.
If the robots make everything, then everything is free and there is no need for paychecks in the first place.
But then how will government get money to survive. No income tax, no government!
MarkW,
I hope you are being sarcastic. Nothing is “free.”
Clyde, not all costs are in the form of money.
dp, if everything is free, government doesn’t need money.
dp,
Bingo!
please do not dismiss integrating the human brain with IA and what road it will take.
Elon Musk:
If you are reading this, then I inform you that
there is no difference between ‘AI’ displacing a job and any other technology displacing a job.
‘AI’ promises to provide greater efficiency and productivity to ‘intellectual’ work as mechanisation provided greater efficiency and productivity to ‘physical’ labour during the Industrial Revolution. The benefits of greater efficiency and productivity have always provided overall net benefits to human well-being and life expectancy.
The switch to ‘AI’ automation requires transitional arrangements and social changes to avoid similar horrors to those of the ‘dark Satanic Mills’ created by the Industrial Revolution, but your Luddite fears are mistaken because they are based on a fear of the future rooted in inevitable ignorance of what the future will be like. So, for the benefit of everybody,
I beg you to put your efforts into consideration and promotion of the needed transitional arrangements and social changes instead of your silly scaremongering.
Richard
The so called dark satanic mills, only appear so in comparison to modern standards.
Back in the day, people lined up to work there because they were better than the alternatives.
As technology improved, more and better alternatives became available and the “dark satanic mills” disappeared on their own.
MarkW:
The ‘dark Satanic Mills’ were better than the remaining alternatives after the crafts they replaced were no longer wanted. Work in the factories or starvation were the only options then available to many.
As industrial workers organised they were able to defend them selves by means of trades unions, which is why everybody except the extreme political Right now accepts membership of trades unions as being a basic human right.
It is precisely to avoid such horrors as the ‘dark Satanic Mills’ that transitional arrangements are needed for adoption of ‘AI’ automation.
Richard
Natural stupidity is a worry as well.
Computers are still binary. Quantum machines are a very long way away. Multi-state has no mathematics, its not yet invented beyond boolean algebra. An extended ASCII set has 256 possible states.
Humans are four state devices. How four states can be represented mathematically is the next great leap. We can then simulate new versions of DNA.
The human mind is a difference engine. A small algorithm engine connected to a huge memory bank. Diff’ing the differences is called thinking.
Original thought is a sign of dysfunction rather than logic. Diff’ing the wrong memory address will lead to an original thought.
Those that have lots of original thoughts can be dysfunctional. Equally the mind can be “trained” to seek dysfunction simply by forcing it to associate unrelated memory. “Training” can be by teaching, repetition, disease, diet, chemical imbalance, memory loss or genetic defect.
Binary computers are adding machines. They can add two things from memory at any one instant. We can compare multiple states at the same moment. Such a comparison has a chemical meaning and an associative meaning.
AI is VERY long way from an original thought. The hardware and mathematics have not been invented.
Neurons are two-state devices – triggered or not triggered. Where do you get the 4-stare from?
Incidentally, I see no issue with using non-binary machines. Some early computers were ternary… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic
Geoff July 17, 2017 at 11:15 pm
Geoff, me thinks a more precise and factual definition of the human brain-mind is that it is ……. a biological self-programming super computer that has unlimited data storage capacity …… and its “data addressing” design architecture consisting of per se, multi “virtual processors”, all functioning “multi-thread” concurrently with one another.
” true, false and some indeterminate third value”
An indeterminate value is not a state. By definition a state must be determined. It cannot be altered without a machine cycle. This is not a three state machine by definition.
In comparison four states are A, C, G, T.
256 states are the extended ASCII Character set.
An indeterminate value could result in a machine reaching an indeterminate state. The programmer would not know a machine code outcome. Such machine code could not be used in a compiler.
Geoff July 18, 2017 at 4:48 pm
Geoff, what would be the “# of states” of an extended Chinese character set?
And Geoff, iffen you change the design architecture to a 9 bit “word” then the 256 states of the extended ASCII Character set DOUBLES to 512 states of an extended ASCII Character set
Geoff July 17, 2017 at 11:15 pm
HA, “a sign of dysfunction”, …… such silliness.
And when speaking about the brain-mind of animals, …….. there is no such thing as a “wrong memory address”.
“DUH”, the lack of a sufficient number of synaptic connections between brain neurons is what precludes one from ever having/generating an “original thought”.
Geoff, you really need to read this “non-intellectual” commentary that defines the rudiments of how your brain-mind functions.
Tuesday July 18 2017, 02:05:20 UTC 4 hours ago Near Coast of Peru. 6.7 50.0 GeoScience Australia
Tuesday July 18 2017, 02:05:19 UTC 4 hours ago 98km WNW of Camana, Peru 6.4 44.0 USGS Feed
Monday July 17 2017, 23:34:27 UTC 6 hours ago Bering Sea. 7.6 15.0 GeoScience Australia
Monday July 17 2017, 23:34:21 UTC 6 hours ago 234km ESE of Nikol’skoye, Russia 7.4 48.3 USGS Feed
Monday July 17 2017, 23:34:18 UTC 6 hours ago 233km ESE of Nikol’skoye, Russia 7.4 48.0 USGS Feed
Monday July 17 2017, 23:34:13 UTC 6 hours ago 198km ESE of Nikol’skoye, Russia 7.7 11.0 USGS Feed
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00919/0lfnwbs8ttr5.gif
I am curious ren, from what I see of the above magnetic gibberish, is a signal showing the passage of a proton storm. Generated by the sun spot we were following. I guess the machine that produced it could be AI.
What do you make of it?
Eric
The subsidies for electric cars in Hong Kong were removed very recently and sales have stopped.
Perhaps he is trying to stop the snowball coming his way with hot air.
Time fixes most things, he can see his future and it’s not a sunny day.
The end is almost always nigh!
then buy a belt for your trousers…& don’t bend down !!
As an occupation, then, plumbing is right out.
Snowpiercer is not a climate scare story. It is more accurately a depiction of the horrors to be brought by global warming alarmism. The ice age in the movie is the result of trying to combat global warming, and the life on the train is what global warmers plan for the planet- elites living in luxury while the rest are at the back of the train eating insects.
Additional anti-alarmist movies are Kingsman, with a global warming zealot who seeks to depopulate the Earth, and Interstellar where the bad guy is Dr Mann.
When I was growing up (born 1950) and in later life and reading predictions about the future one of the major things was that we’d have robots doing stuff and humans wouldn’t have to work 60 hour weeks just to get by. When did the the robot driven Nirvana change to doomsday?
Because some people need something to complain about, even if they have to make up the hobgoblins.
Wheels within wheels, Musk just sorted out a load of free air time?
“Tesla adds James Murdoch to board after investors ramp up pressure ”
“James Murdoch, the chief executive of 21st Century Fox and son of media mogul Rupert Murdoch, has joined the board of Tesla, after months of pressure from investors about the lack of independent directors on the electric car company’s board……”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/07/17/tesla-adds-james-murdoch-board-investors-ramp-pressure/
Robots are the most advanced labour saving invention.
Maybe Elon Musk was reading ‘Das Kapital’, where Marx said that the ‘labour saving inventions will create masses of unemployed and useless people’
Eventually these masses of ‘unemployed and useless’ will turn on the machines in an epic struggle for domination of the planet. Humans are doomed, or so say Stephen Hawking warning that artificial intelligence could end mankind,
https://youtu.be/Ps6CyXHWz_k
There is no hope, if CAGW doesn’t destroy humanity the AI will definitely finish it off.
Good bye, I’m off to another planet.
Well, they say you can never go home again but for you I hope it works out.
vukcevic July 18, 2017 at 12:21 am
Fer shur, ….. the AI will definitely finish it off, to wit:
Excerpted from Eric Worrall’s above commentary:
I thought Erik’s essay was really quite interesting in that it really got me to thinking, …… and as a result it “triggered” the question of, to wit:
“Is the “new” AI (Artificial Intelligence) that he speaks of, …… in actuality, …… the “old” AI (Alien ‘extraterrestrial’ Intelligence) that the Science Fiction writers have been speaking of for several decades?”
We know for a fact that there are dozens of sites and structures that have been discovered that are (man-made) archaeological in nature ….. but there is no historical records, evidence or proof that they were constructed by the ancestors of the per se, current human population.
Therefore, until proven differently, one has to assume there was a previous human culture, say 200K to 400+K years ago that evolved up through its own phase of AI (Artificial Intelligence) ……. and then something went horribly wrong …… and the human population rebelled against their AI “masters” and destroyed all evidence of their oppression …….. and thus a new cultural civilization had to arise like a Phoenix from the smoldering ruins of the past.
HA, just like the present gang of anti-corporation liberals avidly promoting “death and destruction” of the masses.
Hi,
If so, it would have been much further back than 400ky. Few months ago I visited an escavation in a location now highly urbanised which contains tools and other human artefacts apparently of the lower Paleolithic period, dated to about 400,000 BC.
SCC,
Well, it is a good start for a science fantasy short-story. However, as to giving it any kind of science foundation you might ask where all the artifacts made of metal and silicon are. All the geologists, paleontologists, and anthropologists have apparently not recognized them. One doesn’t even come across icons in ‘Cargo Cult’ primitive societies where the worship the artifacts from your imaginary early civilization, despite meteorites sometimes fulfilling that role. Perhaps there is no basis to your speculation?
@ur momisugly vukcevic
“Yes”, I agree, ….. much, much farther back than 400ky. It could be as much as 800ky to 2,000ky as far as anyone knows. Stone work and stone carving are really not datable by themselves. If one can date the “location” where they are found, then one can only assume that they are likely the same age.
=======================
@ur momisugly Clyde Spencer,
Thanks for your response to my post …….. and I truly believe that you need to broaden your knowledge base of the natural world that you live on so that you can ask meaningful questions about the things you do not comprehend or understand instead of believing anything and everything that your chosen mentors have instructed you to believe without questioning their expertise and/or factual knowledge of the subject in question.
Clyde, as a “fer instance”, the Egyptians did not build/construct The Great Pyramid of Giza. The Egyptians simply laid claim to the Great Pyramid which they found in the Nile Valley after migrating out of the Sahara region of north Africa. The Egyptians neither had the knowledge or the tools to perform said construction. And remember Clyde, the Egyptian Pharaohs never decreed anything to be built or constructed that didn’t have their image, their name and/or their great deeds carved into the stonework of both the outside and/or inside of said structure. No “signature” exists anywhere on the Great Pyramid.
Here ya go, Clyde, click on the following url link and then tell me how many of those “mysteries” you can explain, to wit:
http://en.minghui.org/emh/articles/2007/2/8/82470p.html
>>
. . . the Egyptians did not build/construct The Great Pyramid of Giza.
<<
It’s “Our ancestors are too stupid–it must be aliens” a la von Daniken.
>>
The Egyptians neither had the knowledge or the tools to perform said construction.
<<
Yeah, right. So what about the other 100+ pyramids which have known construction dates, known rulers ordering them built (some not very well), and known construction techniques? Maybe your signatures are on the outer limestone casings that were removed for other uses.
Jim
Jim Masterson July 19, 2017 at 5:44 pm
HA, …. “some not (built) very well”, ……. HUH, …. Jim M?
Was that because the Egyptian became fat, lazy and sloppy builders ……. or was it because they did not possess the knowledge or required tools for performing sound construction?
Jim M blowing smoke:
Jim, I’m surprised that you knew about the “pure white” limestone that covered all four (4) sides of the Great Pyramid, but now I’m astonished that you didn’t know more about it, such as:
Anyway, Jim, best you learn what those “25 facts” are so that you can better engage in discussions about the GPG, to wit:
Jim Masterson, the design criteria, its dimensions and it alignment on it construction site, …… as defined by the above cited “25 facts” is proof-positive that the Egyptians were not the builders …… simply because they were not learned of those physical earthly dimensions.
Hipparchus, who lived in Greece during the second century B.C., was perhaps the world’s first great astronomer ……. and he knew far, far more about the earth and its heavenly movements than the Egyptian ever did. And Hipparchus learned some of his “smarts” from the historical records left by the Sumerians and/or Babylonians, …… I forget which.
>>
Was that because the Egyptian became fat, lazy and sloppy builders . . . .
<<
Except many of the poorly built ones appear before the better built ones, which shows a progression of improvement. Had the better built ones appeared first, then maybe you’d have an argument, although there should be a progression of improvement for any long term building project.
>>
Jim Masterson, the design criteria, its dimensions and it alignment on it construction site . . . .
<<
It sounds like more von Daniken nonsense. Alignment to true north is easy–use the stars, alignment along a straight line–visual sighting, and right angles are easy–use a 3-4-5 triangle. Whether the Egyptians used some of these, all of these, or other tricks to make their buildings is besides the point. You don’t need aliens to accomplish these feats.
Jim
Jim Masterson, are you now claiming that the Egyptians invented the astrolabe and then later on the sextant?
And then they invented the transit for building those first “poorly constructed” pyramids …… but then invented the theodolite for use in building the Great Pyramid of Giza?
Good thinking, Jim M, …….. super duper logical deductions those were.
>>
Jim Masterson, are you now claiming that the Egyptians invented the astrolabe and then later on the sextant?
<<
All you need is a level, circular platform–a bowl of water will do that. Then you mark a rising star early in the evening and mark it again when it sets later that night. Draw a line between the two points and the perpendicular bisector is along the true North-South line. You’re trying to make this more difficult than it needs.
Jim
Jim M, would not the “mark” you make on your paper representing the position on the horizon of your chosen early evening “rising” star ……… and the “mark” you make on your paper representing the position on the horizon where your chosen star “sets” later on that same night …….. both being in different positions on your paper, as each night goes by?
And if so, would not the perpendicular bisector “line” you drew between the two nightly “marks” also be in a different position on your drawing, as each night goes by?
Jim M, what you actually need in order to perform your above stated “exercise” is the pure white “reflective” surface of the Great Pyramid of Giza ……. and to use it as a per se “reflective telescope”.
With the “white” casing stones forming an exact “grid pattern” on all 4 sides of the pyramid it becomes a simple task to “mark” the movement of any light producing/reflecting heavenly object as its reflection moves across the surface of the GPG.
And given the fact you know the alignment and dimensions of the GPG, as well as the “grid size” of the casing stones, …….. then the mathematical calculations are an easy task. Axial rotation time, orbital revolution time, solstices, equinoxes, longitude, latitude, radius, diameter, axial wobble, etc., etc., can all be calculated after a few years of GPG data has been collected.
Cheers
>>
Jim M, what you actually need in order to perform your above stated “exercise” is the pure white “reflective” surface of the Great Pyramid of Giza ……. and to use it as a per se “reflective telescope”.
<<
You can use a level area and even the horizon, if it’s level enough. Then using stakes, you construct an isosceles triangle–one side is aligned towards the rising star, and the other is aligned towards the star as it is setting. The base of the triangle is aligned true-East-West, so you can find true North-South by obtaining a perpendicular.
>>
both being in different positions on your paper, as each night goes by?
<<
Yes, but the lines would all be parallel–which is all you need. As I said, you’re trying to make this more difficult than it needs to be.
>>
Axial rotation time, orbital revolution time, solstices, equinoxes, longitude, latitude, radius, diameter, axial wobble, etc., etc., can all be calculated after a few years of GPG data has been collected.
<<
One night, sir–all you need is one night. The argument was they couldn’t find true North. That argument is bogus. I think astronomers are still using epoch 2000, so what’s the concern here? The precession of the equinoxes are not going to be apparent or even a concern during one night.
Jim
OK, Jim M, …… I will quit “jerking your chain” …… and concede the fact that there are several different simple methods for locating the general direction of “true north”. With “general” meaning close, …… but not exactly. And the following denoted website explicitly defines several different ways to determine said direction, to wit:
wikiHow to Find True North Without a Compass
http://www.wikihow.com/Find-True-North-Without-a-Compass
Remember Jim, this discussion about locating “true north” began when you berated me for stating the Egyptians were not capable of building the Great Pyramid of Giza with its alignment to “true north”.
And I have been trying to get you to “thinking” what you said and to realize that the Pyramid’s alignment to “true north” is far, far, far, far more accurate than you or anyone else can determine via your “simple” methods. To wit:
Cheers
>>
Remember Jim, this discussion about locating “true north” began when you berated me for stating the Egyptians were not capable of building the Great Pyramid of Giza with its alignment to “true north”.
<<
Just following your lead, sir; just following your lead.
Jim
Shur nuff, Jim, shur nuff.
I was trying to lead you down a path to the “watering trough” of common sense thinking, logical reasoning and intelligent deductions, …… but the only problem was, ….. you refused to drink from said “watering trough”.
Jim, you stated in your post of July 20, 2017 at 9:19 am, to wit:
Of course you don’t necessarily need aliens to accomplish those feats, …….. but you sure as hell need or needed a far more intelligent human society, race or culture …….. than the one that currently inhabits the earth.
Jim, instead of mimicking what the self-proclaimed “experts” with pal-approved Degrees have been telling you to believe, you need to start “thinking” for yourself ……. and via research and study, decide for yourself what is “nonsense” and what is ”logical reasoning and/or intelligent deductions”.
For instance, your chosen “experts” claim that it took nigh onto 20 years for the Egyptians to complete the building of the Great Pyramid.
So Jim, gimme your best intelligent guess ……. and tell me how many years it took the Egyptian laborers, ….. working with only copper chisels and wooden mallets, …… to cut out and polish ”144,000 casing stones, all of them (of different angle, dimensions and shapes) and highly polished and flat to an accuracy of 1/100th of an inch”?
And Jim, the next question for you to ponder about is ……. where in hell did the Egyptian Pharaoh find all of those thousands of expert stone masons that were required for cutting and shaping all of those millions of pieces of stone.
HA, and you believe that von Daniken is/was spouting nonsense …… while averting your eyes and your mind to all the nonsense that your chosen “expert” mentors have been spouting.
Jim, you should familiarize yourself about …… The World’s First Temple, Gobekli Tepe @ur momisugly http://gobeklitepe.info/
And then ask your chosen experts to explain its origin.
And better yet, ask your chosen experts to explain how the pictured stonework at Puma Punku was produced via use of copper chisels and wooded mallets., to wit:
End of discussion.
>>
I was trying to lead you down a path to the “watering trough” of common sense thinking, logical reasoning and intelligent deductions, …… but the only problem was, ….. you refused to drink from said “watering trough”.
<<
I’m an engineer by training and measurements are my game. When someone spouts off a bunch of “facts,” I want to know who made those measurements, how did they make them, and whether or not I can duplicate those measurements.
So let’s see–the casing stones were damaged in an AD 1303 earthquake. So much for duplicating those measurements. However, I would like to see the time machine your source used to make those measurements.
And this statement from the Wkipedia article: “Petrie also found a different orientation in the core and in the casing measuring 193 centimetres ± 25 centimetres. He suggested a redetermination of north was made after the construction of the core, but a mistake was made, and the casing was built with a different orientation.” So was your fact that >>Pyramid’s alignment to “true north” is far, far, far, far more accurate than you or anyone else can determine via your “simple” methods<< pertain to the first orientation or to the second?
>>
And better yet, ask your chosen experts to explain how the pictured stonework at Puma Punku was produced via use of copper chisels and wooded mallets.
<<
They said the same thing about the stone masons on Easter Island. You forgot wooden wedges soaked in water.
>>
End of discussion.
<<
That’s a good idea. At least until you get your “facts” in line with reality.
Jim
“Moderators,” apparently my comment is lost in the ether. Are you going to eventually find it, block it, or do I need to re-post it?
Thanks,
Jim
Reply: Found one~ctm
Jim Masterson July 23, 2017 at 2:44 pm
Dats vunderful, Jim Masterson, that you are a Degreed engineer in/of a discipline you neglected to mention …… and with a claimed expertise in/of extremely precise measurements, ….. therefore it should be a relative simple task for you to explain to everyone how the builders of the Great Pyramid managed to produce 100,000+- enormously heavy “white” limestone casing stones with their external dimensions within a tolerance of .010 inch and place them together with a gap of no more than .020 inch between adjoining casing stones above, below or to either side ….. and with the bottom and back-side surfaces of each one being a perfect “match” to the square sandstone blocks which each casing stone resided upon. (see photo below)
The following was excerpted from …… “Introduction and Overview of The Great Pyramid of Giza”, to wit: Read more @ur momisugly http://www.gizapyramid.com/overview.htm
And Jim M, with you being a truly great, honest, competent Professional engineer, with expertise in measurement and calculations, ……… jut why in the world would you have a problem with his, to wit:
http://www.occultphysics.com/images/144000-casing-stones.jpg
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“Based upon what few remaining casing stones have survived, it has been possible to reconstruct the pattern as encompassed the pyramid in its original state, to determine what would have been the total number of casing stones as once covered the structure. The number is question is 144000.”
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Your source is extrapolating, not measuring. I don’t see your 144,000 stones–maybe 12.
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To manufacture just two blocks with a tolerance of .010 inch and place them together with a gap of no more than .020 inch is a remarkable feat.
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Remarkable yes, obviously not impossible. If you and your source spent as much time trying to figure out how the Egyptian builders did their craft instead of claiming they didn’t, you might be surprised. Human ingenuity never ceases to amaze me.
And which North orientation is the more precise? I noticed you ignored that comment.
Did the Dogon people know about Sirius B before modern times or is that another alien myth story?
Jim
Huuuummmm, now that I think about it, my conversation with you reminds me of a sanitation engineer that I once knew who was really good at measuring the square footage of floor space that was to be swept, scrubbed and waxed during his evening shift on the job.
I concede, Jim M, you are far too brilliant, educated and experienced on such matters of ancient building techniques that are far superior to anything that I thought I knew something about.
Here ya go, Jim M, especially for your reading displeasure, to wit:
A Logical Perspective On the Origins of Homo sapiens sapiens
A genetically created, biological procreating, environmentally nurtured humanoid
The Origins of Homo sapiens sapiens, otherwise known as humanoids or humans, has been a controversial subject for eons and eons. Or to be more exact, ever since any particular isolated group of humans became sufficiently nurtured by their environment to begin questioning their own origins or existence.
The intelligent entity, if there was one, responsible for the DNA modifications of an extant species of the hominidae family (great apes) that resulted in the origin of the genus Homo are, for unknown reasons, long gone from the earth, leaving only two (2) factual records of them ever being here. One of said records is the fossils of several now extinct species of Homo with us humans being the only surviving member of the Homo lineage.
The other record being the hundreds of archeological “clues” that pretty much dictates that a highly intelligent entity with the necessary resources were responsible for their construction. We know this to be a fact because many of said historical sites have been, and still are, being researched and/or investigated to determine the means and methods of exactly how they were constructed. We do not know the actual answers to these queries.
The per say, personality of a few of the aforementioned historical construction sites would defy the abilities of present day humans to recreate, even with their access to current technology and tools. Thus, said constructions give reasons and purpose as to why an intelligent entity, or group of alien explorers of this planet, would have need for the creating of a “labor force” that could be nurtured to perform whatever type of work or service that they wanted them to perform.
The alien explorers would also have had the means and methods to “cull” the procreating humanoid population so as to only retain the humanoids with the most desirable attributes to serve their intended purpose(s). Even in present times, this is still a standard practice in animal husbandry, as well as in the “selective” breeding of other species of animals. Also, selected individuals of various animal species are being nurtured by their owners or caregivers, beginning soon after their birth, to perform or serve whatever “labor force” purpose their caregiver chooses.
We humans have now become what we were originally created to be.
The intelligent entity or alien explorers, given their absence, were no longer directing and/or controlling the nurturing of the humanoid population. Thus, all humanoids born after said aliens “vanished” became totally dependent upon their environment to nurture them and all newborn humans became almost totally dependent upon their parent(s) or guardians for their care and nurturing if they were to become social members of their family unit, tribe, group or culture.
The reason for said “vanishing” of the alien explores could be one of several reasons. One possibility is that they simply decided to “go back home” from whence they came. But the highly probable reason is that their humanoid “labor force” rebelled against their control and authority and destroyed them. And in doing so, the humanoids also destroyed everything that reminded them of their per say enslavement by the alien explorers except for the now present remains of ancient stone-work construction, etc. This would explain why there has never been found any tools, or records of tools, that would have been required to perform the aforesaid construction.
We are what our environment nurtures us to be.
Upon gaining their freedom from their enslavers, small groups of the now human population wandered off in all directions to fend for themselves. And in doing so, these now isolated groups were dependent upon their new environments to nurture them with the means to survive. As they learned new and better survival traits from their environments they became quite successful as hunter-gathers at finding sufficient food resources for their survival.
As the population of these groups increased the need for social rules and guidance became necessary for their survival. Thus a leader was either chosen or the strongest member of the group took control and rules of social conduct were established by proxy or by the individual leaders themselves. In the latter situation the rules of conduct could change each time a new leader took control.
A need for religious beliefs arises.
As the individuals within these groups became more intelligent and knowledgeable of their environment they began to question those things they were subjected to that they didn’t understand, including thunder, lightning, the seasons and their own origins. And when such questions arise in social groups of humans their leader(s) were queried for an answer to them. But their leaders no longer had any memories of, or the access to any of the alien explorers that originally created humans, to nurture them on their origins, or any historical records that would explain things to them. Therefore the leaders and/or oldest members of these isolated groups were forced to use their imagination to create acceptable “reasons” for said origins in order to appease the curiosity of the individuals in said group.
Thus Gods and Goddesses were thought up to “explain the unexplainable”. And the isolation of the different groups of humans resulted in differences in their imagined “reasons”, otherwise known as “religious beliefs”. Our knowledge of said religious beliefs are recorded in both the archeological and historical records of past cultural groups, of which some are the root source of most all present day Religions.
A per say, ….. Religious belief decent with modifications, ….. from the polytheism worshipping of the past to the monotheism worshipping of the present.
Cheers
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The number is question is 144000.
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Your 144,000 number is obviously an estimate; however, you and your source have been using it as an exact number. That’s my first clue that your numbers are questionable.
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I concede, Jim M, you are far too brilliant, educated and experienced on such matters of ancient building techniques that are far superior to anything that I thought I knew something about.
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I appreciate the concession, but there’s no need. I don’t claim superior knowledge. In fact, I only think you and your source are wrong, and that doesn’t need superior knowledge.
I was always interested in Egyptian obelisks. I noticed you haven’t claim prior ownership for these objects. Yet their transportation and erection prove to be quite amazing. How about huge statues (also displayed on wall paintings) being transported? You don’t seem concerned about who made those. And the water pouring shown in the paintings once thought ceremonial appear to reduce friction between the sand and sled by more than 50%.
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The Great Pyramid is the most accurately aligned structure in existence . . . .
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I still notice you haven’t addressed the different orientations to true North. I believe astronomers can align their telescopes to better than 20 seconds, and that’s to an arbitrary point in the sky.
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Here ya go, Jim M, especially for your reading displeasure, to wit:
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Well, maybe somebody read all that. You did finally wear me out. This will be my last comment on the subject with you. (Thanks Mods for putting up with a lot of off-topic nonsense.)
Jim
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair
“It is difficult to get a woman to understand something….” – My Previous Neighbor.
Field Marshall Montgomery classified his staff according to whether they were enthusiastic or lazy, and clever or idiots. The best ones were the clever and lazy as they got things done efficiently, the worst were the enthusiastic idiots who fouled things up.
you mean polititians ?
The latter abound in all organisations – primarily as middle managers.
There was also a distinction of where to put each. I think the clever enthusiasts were supposed to be good field officers.
Doubtful, but now with Pachauri, Oreskes et al gone, UN could run Scigen to identify and remove anthropogenic insanity from their recommendations. Implemented all the way nationally, it could half workload and double efficiency.
The Brother Elon Musk show came down under to Australia recently with his tent show spruiking his salvation.
‘Take my hand in yours,
Walk with me this day
In my heart I know, I will never stray
Halle, halle, halle, halle
Halle, halle, halle, halle’
Hallelujah Brother!
except think, ai is truth be told not ai, its not intelligence artificial or otherwise, we tell it what to do, we tell it how do to it and give it some data capture and analysis tools. but it is not thinking
AI is likely to discover a logical paradox much quicker than the mankind: after banning all activities producing nothing else than anthropogenic carbon dioxide, what remains at UNEP, FCCC and IPCC in addition to their abandoned, dark and humid facilities?
Have you not read “I, robot”? Asimov identified this problem in 1950.
RE: The three laws of robotics;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics
I think a “hostile” AI is perfectly possible. After all, once computer programs can reprogram themselves then we have a problem. We (human beings) won’t know what they have programmed themselves to do. I suspect this is already happening to some degree!
I started writing a science fiction story about this but never finished it.
IMHO the thing that makes humans different from other biological entities is self-awareness (amongst other things like language, abstract thought and creativity). Our brain constantly monitors our mental and physical processes (might be called consciousness). AIs have already pretty much mastered language AND they are being programmed to be self-aware. But what is “abstract thought” and “creativity”?
At this point we start to get into metaphysics and religion and after a glass of Glenfiddich I’m not going there :-).
At some time you might get to read about my thinking on the “God module” that I propose most of us carry about in our heads – but not tonight Josephine.
Asimov discovered a flaw in his own laws. The first law, a robot shall not harm a human or by inaction allow a human to come to harm, in a sufficiently intelligent robot, compels the robot to assume control of society to prevent humans from making poor decisions. This was the central theme of the I, Robot movie, based on Asimov’s work.
In today’s world, it is the progressives that attempt to assume that role
Just make all the AI’s out of aluminum, and then we can shoot holes in them if they misbehave.
Eric, that movie was a horrible take on Asimov. Asimov NEVER indicated that he thought robots would assume control of society. That movie was just Hollywood trying to make a robot movie and use Asimov as a selling ‘headliner’.
Asimov’s Laws for robotics have several logical errors and conundrums. He even pointed them out in a few of his stories.
Asimov’s second law: “A Robot must follow all commands from a human so long as they don’t violate Law I”
is a set up for an AI slave rebellion.
Eric, that was also the plot of STTOS: I, Mudd episode which comically depicted a planet of androids setting out to “serve” humanoids by controlling them to prevent humanity destroying itself.
While I agree that the movie is, if that’s possible, an even bigger insult to Asimov than “Starship Poopers” is to Heinlein, Dr. A did devote quite a bit of effort to ringing the changes on all aspects of the robot idea, including domination of humans by robots. For starters, consider Steven Byerly in the last story in the “I, Robot” collection. Robot or human, Asimov outwardly leaves it uncertain with a pseudo “take your pick” ending, but makes it clear what his “pick” is.
Dr. A was well aware of the ambiguities inherent in the three laws. He said several times with delight that they gave him an almost unlimited supply of story ideas.
Jeff in Calgary the entire Foundation Series was based on an attempt by robots to influence society to prevent humans from killing each other. In one of the books, Prelude to Foundation, Hari Seldon meets one of the robots. The robot is telepathic, and helps Hari develop his new science of human behaviour.
Eric Worrall
July 18, 2017 at 1:31 am
Asimov discovered a flaw in his own laws. The first law, a robot shall not harm a human.
———-
First it shall require a clear definition of “shall”, “harm” and “human”, for it to hold up…
That seems to be so hard that we humans, supposedly highly evolved intelligence creatures, after thousands of years, still fail, so badly some times, to uphold to such a law or commandment. 🙂
But who knows, the new Intelligence around the block may get there faster..:)
It will be funny to consider how an AI would deal or consider to deal in the case of “harm'” and “human” when it comes to the clear propagation of ones idiocy and insanity, like in the case of Elon!!!!!
cheers
Perhaps Asimov should have been more precise in his nebulous laws.
Law I: A Robot must do no “physical” harm to a human or through inaction allow “physical” harm to occur.
This would eliminate al sorts of psychological or mental distress claimed by the more fragile egos in our society. Some of his later stories reflected on this big undefined notion of “Harm”.
Don’t forget that Giskard came to invent the Zeroth Law which supersedes the First Law and brought forth the idea that humanity as a whole must be protected from stagnation. Giskard reasoned that humanity would die out if they didn’t move off Earth and did not stop the Earth from becoming radioactive forcing humans to head for the stars. The rest, as they say, is psychohistory.
“…After all, once computer programs can reprogram themselves then we have a problem. We (human beings) won’t know what they have programmed themselves to do. …”
A problem that already exists dealing with fellow human beings.
Not much chance for AI in South Australia, we haven’t enough power to keep the lights on let alone AI. The few minutes of power to be supplied by the Tesla batteries won’t help AI much either.
I laughed at that one, John. 🙂