Inconvenient: New paper finds the last interglacial was warmer than today – not simulated by climate models

[Reposted from the Hockey Schtick]

A new paper published in Climate of the Past compares temperature reconstructions of the last interglacial period [131,000-114,000 years ago] to climate model simulations and finds climate models significantly underestimated global temperatures of the last interglacial by ~0.67C on an annual basis and by ~1.1C during the warmest month.

This implies that climate models are unable to fully simulate natural global warming, and the error of the underestimation is about the same as the 0.7C global warming since the end of the Little Ice Age in ~1850. Thus, the possibility that present-day temperatures could be entirely the result of natural processes cannot be ruled out in comparison to the last interglacial period.

Further, during the last interglacial, Greenland temperatures were naturally up to 8C higher and sea levels up to 43 feet higher than today. And, during another interglacial, all of Greenland and West Antarctica melted & sea levels were 79 feet higher. Since this low-CO2 global warming occurred entirely naturally, there is no evidence that global warming during the present interglacial is unnatural or man-made.

Ice_Age_Temperature

Temperatures during the last interglacial period ~120,000 years ago were higher than during the present interglacial period.

Table_last IG

First column is the warmest single period simulated by climate models, second column is the warmest period from a compilation of temperature reconstructions.

Clim. Past, 10, 1633-1644, 2014 http://www.clim-past.net/10/1633/2014/

doi:10.5194/cp-10-1633-2014

Last interglacial model–data mismatch of thermal maximum temperatures partially explained

P. Bakker and H. Renssen

Abstract.

The timing of the last interglacial (LIG) thermal maximum across the globe remains to be precisely assessed. Because of difficulties in establishing a common temporal framework between records from different palaeoclimatic archives retrieved from various places around the globe, it has not yet been possible to reconstruct spatio-temporal variations in the occurrence of the maximum warmth across the globe. Instead, snapshot reconstructions of warmest LIG conditions have been presented, which have an underlying assumption that maximum warmth occurred synchronously everywhere.

Although known to be an oversimplification, the impact of this assumption on temperature estimates has yet to be assessed. We use the LIG temperature evolutions simulated by nine different climate models to investigate whether the assumption of synchronicity results in a sizeable overestimation of the LIG thermal maximum. We find that for annual temperatures, the overestimation is small, strongly model-dependent (global mean 0.4 ± 0.3 °C) and cannot explain the recently published 0.67 °C difference between simulated and reconstructed annual mean temperatures during the LIG thermal maximum.

However, if one takes into consideration that temperature proxies are possibly biased towards summer, the overestimation of the LIG thermal maximum based on warmest month temperatures is non-negligible with a global mean of 1.1 ± 0.4 °C.

The full paper is available here: http://www.clim-past.net/10/1633/2014/cp-10-1633-2014.pdf

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DesertYote
September 2, 2014 1:26 pm

The reconstruction-model discrepancy has already been identified. The authors of this paper are trying to find justifications for altering the reconstructions to match the models.

Steve Oregon
September 2, 2014 1:37 pm

Santer demands extraordinary proof.
“When people come up with extraordinary claims — like the troposphere is cooling — then you demand extraordinary proof,” Santer said. “What’s happening now is that people around the world are subjecting these data sets to the scrutiny they need.”
Funny stuff from 2005:
http://www.livescience.com/378-key-argument-global-warming-critics-evaporates.html

mikeishere
Reply to  Steve Oregon
September 2, 2014 2:09 pm

All they needed to do was send up a balloon with two separate thermometers during the day – one with a sun shield and a 70’s style one without a shield then note the amount of difference between them. I wonder if they ever did anything as straight forward as that?

September 2, 2014 1:51 pm

Find some EE guys, and a few others with degrees and put up the facts on wind and solar electrical production. Show via real transmission and distribution methods how much if any of wind or solar power gets to the normal home in a city or to a bussiness. How much wind or solar elecrictty gets to electric meters after it travles through the transmission and distribution power lines.
For sure make the test run for this with the gas, nuke, oil, water, aka other power sources turned off.
The ones working for the likes of Duke Power or TXU, Chicago Edison , Souther Cal Ed. ect can not and will not tell the truth, as many of the power generation companies are in on the fraud.

September 2, 2014 3:40 pm

Sorry. I saw the word model in the title on ClimPast and moved on. Although it is vaguely interesting, and I do mean vaguely, I am attracted to actual field studies and results from around the world on the Eemian. Heck, we still cannot agree if the last termination (which brought us into the Eemian) was a single or two-step affair. Some say it was stable throughout most of its length and others provide evidence that this was decidedly not the case. I fail to see how models can resolve reality that we still have not fully unraveled in the “real” world.

September 2, 2014 4:02 pm

Reblogged this on Norah4you's Weblog and commented:
More that Swedish “Green” politians (and other politians) had better read before Election Day September 14th……

thingadonta
September 2, 2014 7:17 pm

There were more mammoths and mammoth farts in the last interglacial, as humans hadn’t yet arrived in places like Canada and the US for McMammoth Mcsteakburger.

jaffa
September 3, 2014 12:57 am

The 150 000 year graph puts things into perspective, when climate scietivists are talking about the temperature ‘anomaly’ they’re saying the next to last pixel on the right hand side of that graph is ‘normal’.and anything else is abnormal – man made catastrophic climate change. They’re just ridiculous.

jaffa
September 3, 2014 1:00 am

Sorry – I mean the 450 000 year graph – doh

phlogiston
September 3, 2014 7:10 am

On the timing of the interglacials and the MPR (mid pleistocene rerevolution) there is an interesting paper by Maslin and Ridgewell 2005:
http://sp.lyellcollection.org/content/247/1/19.short
They question the orthodoxy that the post-MPR timing is eccentricity driven. They are not however questioning Milankovich forcing in general – they suggest that post MPR timing is actually with precession – every 4 or 5 cycles, but “paced” or entrained by eccentricity.
For me this would seem to point to weak forcing of a nonlinear oscillator where the relation between frequency of periodic forcing(s) and the emergent frequency is complex. It is possible in fact that the MPR could just represent a transition between strong (obliquity) and weak (precession plus eccentricity) periodic nonlinear forcing.
This would make srnse in the context of the gradually deepening glaciation and increasing “difficulty” in the starting of interglacials. Note yhat our current one – the Holocene – had a false start, the YD.
If the trend in deepening glaciation continues then interglacials would stop at some point. The Holocene could even be the last one. Thiscpuld be just the start of a deep glaciation aapproaching “snowball earth” such as the Saharan-Andean (end Ordovician) or the earlier preCambrian Cryogenian glaciations (e.g. Sturtian, Marinoan-Varanger).
It would be interesting to find out whether these earlier major glaciations were also preceded by an initial phase punctuated by interglacials – does anyone have any information about this?

rgbatduke
Reply to  phlogiston
September 3, 2014 10:23 am

I have a couple of problems with this. Forced harmonic oscillators have several essential components: A restoring force (approximately linear, at least for small perturbations). A driving/forcing force — usually harmonic, if only because we have to do nasty convolutions if it is not. A damping force to represent dissipation, (usually approximately linear in the velocity). And a mass.
I realize that you are expressing a metaphor, not asserting a model, but I’m not sure that a metaphor justifies extended conclusions as if it were a model. In particular, I can see nothing in a climate system that performs the same role as a mass (or inductance, if you prefer electric circuit oscillators). Yes, there is an internal storage or buffering of energy in e.g. the deep oceans, but that energy has no momentum equivalent and cannot carry the system through even a single undamped, unforced oscillation if it is perturbed.
I should qualify this statement, of course. The weather involves secular motion of actual mass on the Earth’s surface — atmospheric flow, thermohaline circulation — that have actual momentum and which are forced by a complex mix of Coriolis pseudoforces and real variable buoyancy forces as it is differentially heated and cooled, and some of those motions have natural rotational periods and a very few — e.g. the evolution of the diurnal tidal bulge — could have something like an actual restoring force coupled to a periodic forcing. However, the frequency spectrum of the mass/momentum oscillations of this sort is highly compact compared to even the smallest frequencies relevant to climate evolution on geological time scales — they are simply irrelevant, or at least, it is very difficult to see how they could be relevant.
On the longer timescales, I think you have to think of everything changing very, very slowly — slowly enough that the system for the most part merely tracks a local “quasi-equilbrium” dictated by things like the orbital dynamics, which at least have a very definite and computable effect on insolation as eccentricity changes. It is much more difficult — for me, at least — to understand the effects of changes in obliquity and precession, as they involve the projection of varying insolation onto the also slowly varying geographical arrangement of continents and oceans. This is further complicated by a secondary but extremely significant variation in planetary albedo with the distributed fraction of planetary surface covered with snow and ice, which is also effectively projected onto the slowly varying geographical arrangement of continents, sea bottoms, mountain location and height, and coupled to things like thermohaline circulation in nontrivial ways, and the fact that the dynamics themselves are highly non-Markovian with a time kernel or “memory” of previous climate with timescales that can be very long indeed — hundreds of thousands of years in the case of Antarctic and Greenland ice pack and (perhaps) the deep ocean.
The closing of Panama and subsequent rearrangement of thermohaline circulation, if indeed this was the proximate cause of the Pleistocene’s gradually deepening descent into glaciation, is then very “odd”. If this “flipped a (million year long) switch” as of maybe 1.9-2 mya, with a gradually increasing effect up to that point, one would expect to see some sort of disjunction in the global temperature, but in fact it smoothly continues the 41 ky cycle that was already established. Again, the interesting thing isn’t the 41 ky cycle — that is understandable — it is the continuing gradual deepening of the cold. The cycles, on average, keep getting colder and colder.
This is enormously odd. The average temperature of the planet is systematically changing, but by “average”, I mean in a running window maybe 200,000 years long to start to smooth out the cycle! The character of the oscillations is distinct — warm and cold phase temperatures differ by only 2-3 C, often less, and the Earth spends almost as much time a bit warmer than the mean as a bit colder. This behavior actually extends almost linearly back to an inflection point roughly 3.5 mya, but with what looks like chaos for the first 800,000 years — chaos with features tens to hundreds of thousands of years wide — before the 41 ky cycle asserts itself.
At 1.5 mya, the character of the oscillation changes again, but still within the 41 ky pattern — the oscillation remains roughly symmetric and if anything, it levels off for a half million years, but the amplitude of the oscillation roughly doubles to maybe 4 C with rare cycles as large as 6 C. At ~1 mya, it changes again, this time the most profound change seen anywhere in the last 5 million years. The cycle mean temperature substantially drops, by close to 2 C. The period converts to ~100 ky, but with lots of beats and stretches where the oscillation again looks more like chaos than a “simple” oscillator with a handful of relevant periods (it would be very interesting to do a fourier analysis here if one could actually include enough cycles to make it particularly meaningful, but really one can’t, I don’t think). The cycle peak to trough amplitude increases to as much as 8 or 9 C. And finally, the cycles become highly asymmetric, spending easily 90% of the time “cold or changing” compared to the time they spend warm. And finally, even though the warm cycles are comparatively short, even though the cold cycles are deep and long (long enough to build up 2-3 km thick ice pack on the continents!) the warmest part of the warm cycles warms up well past the peak temperatures seen in almost 3 my!
Oh my! How in the world can one understand this? Sure, it looks like orbital resonance and eccentricity became important but why only 1 mya? What was changing to (comparatively suddenly!) “switch” the system between the regimes discussed above? And what of the paradoxes inherent in the eccentricity even now, where perihelion occurs at the coldest, not the warmest time of the year. This is usually “explained” in terms of the differential albedo of land and sea and a north polar ocean vs a south polar continental ice cap, but all this explanation really teaches us — if true — is that the projection of the eccentricity, obliquity, and particular angle of season in the precession onto the exact shape of the continental land masses, smeared and modulated over thousand to ten thousand year periods by latent heat of any icepack and by the deep ocean temperature in places where thermohaline upwelling carries up deep water and by who knows how many other possible things? — is an extremely sensitive causal factor in progress towards or away from glaciation!
Literally, sweeping the precise angle of the equinox as projected onto eccentricity and the climate even a small amount can make a huge difference. It is very difficult to understand these changes in the pattern of glaciation in terms of the closing of Panama, as one would have expected that to have nearly been “equilibrated by hundreds of thermohaline turnovers even by the time it closed, or at least within 100 ky or so after.
This still ignores many factors that could be important. The annual variation of peak normal TOA insolation is roughly 91 W/m^2 (compared to the order unity W/m^2 forcing expected from doubling CO_2). A clear modulation of the climate occurs with what appears to be the period of an important decadal oscillation (the PDO). The state of the sun is fairly well known over the last 200 (instrumental) years, but is increasingly difficult to precisely infer or date from proxy data from earlier times. We are staggeringly ignorant about possible cosmological or solar modulators of climate, but there is substantial evidence that the climate system is amazingly sensitive to some small variations in forcing while perfectly happy to blithely ignore or even go counterphase to others, even when larger (e.g. the 91 W/m^2 variation). We do not even have a good feeling for the sign of the feedbacks for local short time climate dynamics and are cosmically clueless about longer time scales, e.g. the proximate cause of the Little Ice Age or Medieval Warm Period — none of this sort of century time scale variation seems connectable to Milankovich type long time scale dynamics, and yet the LIA “could” have been a trigger back into glaciation — as far as we can tell — or not — ditto. We don’t know why it happened in the first place, so we cannot say how important that cause is in the grand scheme of things over longer times.
Underlying this is the — IMO obvious — fact that the Earth’s climate system is fundamentally multistable, or at least has been for the last 3.5 my. Before that, there was a slight warming and cooling with fourier components that match up somewhat with obliquity and precession, but no discernible effect from eccentricity in spite of the fact that it should have been modulating as much then as it does now — presumably onto a world with the wrong continental shape and thermohaline circulation to support much oscillation from either that or obliquity and precession. (Even then, the climate appeared to be slowly cooling, but the effect is barely resolvable over millions of years.) Now, multistable with hysteresis, not with mass. It doesn’t seem to switch like an oscillator, it switches more (indeed, very much) like optical bistability in an open resonance fluorescence system, or (less) like a ferromagnet can be switched.
Multistable — lets stick with bistable for simplicity with just warm phase interglacial and cold phase glacial — systems have, for a wide range of their driving parameters, the possibility of being in either phase, with an imprecise boundary in parameter space within which they are locally stable. That is precisely what the data seem to suggest (for a value of multi greater than bi, possibly even for some sort of fractal distribution of possible attractors/stable points in the climate system). Once the Earth is glaciated, it is not at all easy to warm it up. Just the right conditions have to persist for a very long time to melt all of the ice, alter the albedo, restabilize in a warm phase interglacial. Once those conditions cease to hold, though, the system may well remain interglacial for a long time, even though if the earth were glaciated, it would remain so. This negative (cooling) feedback from ice is very likely to be why the 41 ky cycle is almost completely suppressed for the last my. Every four precessions (or so) obliquity, precession angle, the continents, and eccentricity all conspire to create conditions that can flip the switch, and once the switch is flipped they persist long enough to make the warm phase stable, but after a comparatively short time, precession makes it only locally stable — if it were cold, it would remain cold. The system then awaits a fluctuation like the LIA sufficiently long to “tip” it into the stable cold phase.
It might not need to be very long. If glaciers grow every year, you gain a tiny bit of albedo every year, as well as gain the ability to absorb a bit more insolation into latent heat (remelting of ice, evaporating of water) instead of reheating the air and ground to maintain the average. The same is likely true of icecap/sea ice modulation. Even things like mere “normal” climate variability can, in its drunkard’s walk, sometimes by pure chance create persistent heating or cooling because the system is so very nonlinear and multivariate.
The system is very likely crazy nonlinear chaotic enough that increasing atmospheric CO_2, which will very definitely tweak one of many climate forcings in a particular way, could very well cause a transition into the cold phase if the range of parametric stability of the warm phase has narrowed enough due to e.g. orbital precession from the warm phase initiator state of 12,000 years ago. If you study limit cycles of nonlinear systems at all you learn very quickly that as poincare trajectories are being followed around stable points in the dynamical evolution, perturbing the parameters away from stability in any direction will, in time, produce extreme-r behavior in the opposite direction as one shifts to a “larger orbit”. If there are multiple attractors, one can easily be pushed over the boundary and into the well of another attractor.
We don’t — I argue — know anywhere nearly enough to predict the effect of increasing CO_2 on the climate. One of many possibilities is to stabilize the warm phase and put an end to the glacial cycle for the time being, possibly even for geological time (as we don’t really know things like how far the continents have to move before the system stabilizes or destabilizes even more, possibly “suddenly” as in new modes appear). One theory for the Younger Dryas is a bolus of freshwater glacial melt suddenly dumped into the ocean interrupting thermohaline circulation long enough for glaciation to recur for a thousand year before orbital dynamics forced the system back into warming, but that’s only one of several possibilities. Assuming that the seas rise, we don’t know the feedback from sea level rise — does a greater sea surface area actually inhibit warming, so that it is self-limiting? Or does it increase warming, so that it tends to rise faster? Or both, plus other nonlinear effects from ice/albedo/latent heat modulation? Can we even say which one is likely to be dominant, let alone “certain” to be dominant? I doubt it.
I also doubt that we understand the even more subtle feedbacks of water vapor/cloud dynamics well enough to answer the question. There is a very good reason to think that the normal state of the climate equilibrium is the fixed point where water vapor feedback turns negative. That is, less (average) water vapor in the atmosphere causes warming to restore it, more (average) water vapor in the atmosphere causes cooling to restore it. That’s what stable equilibrium is — a point where small perturbations cause the system to return to equilibrium, not be forced further away. But if this assertion is true, warming from increased CO_2 should cause strictly negative feedback from water vapor and the water cycle to reduce the warming. If it is not true, one has to appeal to some subtle and complex things to explain why the climate doesn’t run away from positive feedback from water vapor alone.
Finally, “anthropogenic” contributions to climate variation are not limited to increased atmospheric CO_2 from human operated power plants. Every time an old growth tree in the rainforest is felled, we alter the biodynamic carbon cycle. It is further modulated by the rate that various nutrients are released into the ocean. The ocean itself has optical thermal properties that may well depend on things like pollution and silt from human farming and fouling of waterways. I’ve been in an extended discussion with somebody who thought that a lipid near-monolayer resulting from oil and gasoline dropped into the ocean by human boats and human garbage dumped in the ocean and oil leaking into the ocean etc is a major modulator of the ocean’s climate contribution — affecting things like evaporation rates and surface absorption of energy. I doubt he is correct, but I’d have a difficult time proving it from known data or previously done experiments. Farmland has a different albedo and very different climate impact in lots of ways than forest it replaces, and farmland in much of the world is at far greater risk of desertification, which has hysteresis associated with it — once a desert is formed, it takes a long time and just the right conditions to turn it back into non-desert land.
All things being equal, it would be lovely not to rock the Planet Earth boat too much as we struggle to build an equitable global civilization where the world’s 1/3 poorest people might as well be living in the 19th century or even earlier for all of the fruits of civilization that they can afford or enjoy. OTOH, it is unthinkable that we should — given our enormous ignorance of the effect of any given human activity — condemn millions if not billions of humans to perpetual poverty and misery and famine while we ourselves remain energy-wealthy, just because some models that appear to be actively failing predict a possible, but far, far from proven catastrophe. We simply don’t know enough to predict much of anything at all. If we could afford to leave things unchanged it would be great, but we can’t, and we don’t even know how to predict the future outcome of leaving things unchanged — it might be even more negative.
To conclude, I have to say that I doubt that we have an understanding of climate evolution sufficient, even with Milankovich and help from things he ignored, to take the Earth’s climate system in the Miocene and evolve it through the Pleistocene and into and through the Holocene right up to the human-forced present in the last century, at most, of the Holocene. Until we can, I would argue that we don’t really fully understand the climate, not to the extent required to make quantitative predictions or even to be able to resolve something very simple, like “the measured temperature distribution of Earth” vs “what the temperature distribution of Earth would have been if CO_2 remained flat at 290 ppm”. We don’t even know how to compute a statistical expectation for the delta in any way that is at all convincing, unless one is willing to conclude that our current climate is extremely unlikely because it isn’t doing what the climate models say it (probably) should, rather inverting the general course of science relative to model building.
rgb

DesertYote
Reply to  rgbatduke
September 3, 2014 12:55 pm

Reading your comments has been more informative and thought provoking then reading the study that inspired this thread. How do manage to write so much, so well, and so fast?

rgbatduke
Reply to  rgbatduke
September 3, 2014 1:15 pm

Practice?

Reply to  rgbatduke
September 3, 2014 1:55 pm

After the initiation of extensive Antarctic glaciation at the Eocene/Oligocene boundary, with the formation of deep oceanic channels between South America and Australia on the north and Antarctica on the south, the Miocene showed major fluctuations in ice sheet extent there.
The Pleistocene can be viewed as the extension of the Cenozoic Ice House to the Northern Hemisphere. What the future holds, no one can say, but IMO the development of permanent continental ice sheets in the NH over millions of years cannot be ruled out. They might already exist if the North Pole weren’t at sea level instead of high elevation over land, like the South Pole.

September 3, 2014 11:25 am

Ah shucks…If we would get off our butts and start settling other worlds…This argument will be as dead as “T” REX….Would solve a lot of other problems too! Russia could go north into the UNIVERSE, and we could go south into the UNIVERSE…MUSLIM killers EAST into the same and Christians West into the same…Praying that all shall never meet again…MAYBE..But I F%$&^@G doubt it….HOMO SAPIENS just aren’t that smart…They rather kill all of us…Than live in peace and solve the worlds and our own problems as a species…..But at least there are still those who strive for the TRUTH…and for that….I GIVE all of you (with a minority of exceptions)…HUGE “A” for trying …I just hope there will be another “GRAPH” to read in another 50,000 or 100,000 years…Hope your listening God….

phlogiston
September 3, 2014 12:59 pm

Wow – stunning, illuminating reply, thanks. I’ll try to digest it in due course, a few comments in response.
It has indeed been commented e.g. by Maslin and Ridgewell that it is odd how a forcing as weak and with such smooth oscillations as eccentricity can pace the interglacials. Not only that, but it seems that eccentricity forces interglacials MORE effectively at its low amplitude nodes (hardly any variation) e.g. now, 400 kya, 800 kya, than at the high amplitude eccentricity nodes (200 kya, 600 kya) at which the interglacials seem unstable and double-headed.
This huge sensitivity to small variations makes me suspect we will have to look to the physics / maths of weakly forced nonlinear oscillators. I take your point about “mass” or intertia. Maybe something like sea-level and its slow geological response to glacial-interglacial transitions could supply this.
Something maybe a bit like this:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/nlin/papers/0610/0610024.pdf
About the glacial meltwater pulse and the YD – I commented on a recent YD thread that this seems to have happened at the Antarctic, a big collapse about 14000 ya dumped a lot of meltwater into the ocean system that kickstarted the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation and caused the Bolling-Allerod warming. The paper I looked at was:
http://rockbox.rutgers.edu/~jdwright/GlobalChange/Weaveretal_Science_2007.pdf
However to emphasis the daunting complexity of the system, ongoing deep ocean circulation effects of this Antarctic collapse also caused the end of the BA and the start of the YD a couple of thousand years later. This is in the context of – as you point out – the increasing amplitude of the glacial to interglacial oscillations.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seaice.anomaly.arctic.png
What indeed does this mean? Something similar is happening with the Arctic annual ice extent in the last decade – bigger swings in extent from summer to winter – although this is associated with warming, not cooling. But being a believer in fractals, what you see on one scale can be also seen on another.

phlogiston
Reply to  phlogiston
September 3, 2014 1:03 pm

rgbatduke
September 3, 2014 at 10:23 am
phlogiston
September 3, 2014 at 12:59 pm
The above was a reply to your long comment, sorry I posted it as a new entry rather than reply, need to get used to the new WordPress system.

rgbatduke
Reply to  phlogiston
September 3, 2014 1:32 pm

Wow, that’s very interesting. I hadn’t noticed the similarity between sea ice extent and the 5 million year temperature record, but the resemblance is striking.
I still take issue with the “mass” issue. I see no way for any sort of thermal process to provide the analogue of “momentum”, certainly not on long time scales. To pursue the metaphor in the context of circuits, where “capacity” of charge is in some ways similar to “capacity” for heat/internal energy retention, the energy supply to the system may well have substantial variation, some of it highly periodic and functionally organized. The system itself is not a single reservoir/capacitor, it is doubtless multiple capacitors. These analogs are pretty faithful. The notion of resistance is straightforward — the climate system is dissipative — gain comes in from the Sun, is delivered (subject to noise and various internal feedbacks that regulate it in various ways) to the different reservoirs, and bleeds out to “ground” (the 3K Universe) from the various reservoirs through variable resistive pathways through one another but ultimately to ground. Average temperature is what happens as ins roughly balance outs, within the lifetime(s) of secular variations on the ins.
Nowhere in this dissipative circuit is there any analog of inductance, something that will cause the Earth to actually keep warming when its input is diminished, or cool when it is augmented, especially on a very long timescale, except nonlinear feedbacks in the system.
Systems with nonlinear, amplified, lagged feedback are perfectly capable of oscillating, but their oscillation isn’t that of a driven oscillator either mechanical or electrical. It’s more like the repetitive pattern of eddies that can occur in a rising stream of smoke from a piece of incense, or the turnover time of convective rolls in a bottom-heated pan of water. Fourier components can appear in a time spectral decomposition of a nonlinear system without that system really being in any way like a harmonic oscillator, damped, driven, whatever. The venerable “fox rabbit” (predator/prey, Lotka-Volterra) equations are a perfect example of nonlinear feedback leading to oscillation without either a mass term or a proper restoring force. I’d argue that predator-prey is a much better metaphor for the climate system than any sort of linear or nonlinear oscillator.
rgb

phlogiston
Reply to  rgbatduke
September 4, 2014 12:41 pm

I don’t know if it qualifies as mass or momentum but the two hemispheres often juggle heat between them in a process called the bipolar seesaw. For instance events in the Antarctic – particularly an ice sheey collapse, initiated in the NH the BA and the YD at the inception of the Holcene.
Another ingredient for nonlinear oscillation is positive feedback, sometimes referred to as a “reactive medium” as in the case of the Belousov-Zhabotinsky chemical oscillator. The Bjerknes positive feedback between trade winds and Peruvian upwelling is the motor of ENSO. On a longer timescale there is a positive feedback in the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, whereby the North Atlantic drift brings highly saline water to the Arctic increasing the density of the cooled water so that sinks to form bottom water, in turn impelling the North Atlantic drift further.
This is why when you compare temperature history of NH and SH the latter changes smoothly while the NH switches abruptly between warmer and cooler periods – which become fiscreet and are given names such as the YD. Due to this salinity-downwelling feedback the AMOC becomes a nonlinear oscillator like the BZ reaction or ENSO.

phlogiston
Reply to  rgbatduke
September 4, 2014 12:56 pm

When I say “nonlinear oscillator” I dont really mean like a spring or pendulum, but a system which intermittently becomes oscillatory or briefly takes on a life of its own. Not very precise terminology I admit.

phlogiston
Reply to  rgbatduke
September 5, 2014 12:52 am

There is a very good reason to think that the normal state of the climate equilibrium is the fixed point where water vapor feedback turns negative. That is, less (average) water vapor in the atmosphere causes warming to restore it, more (average) water vapor in the atmosphere causes cooling to restore it. That’s what stable equilibrium is — a point where small perturbations cause the system to return to equilibrium, not be forced further away. But if this assertion is true, warming from increased CO_2 should cause strictly negative feedback from water vapor and the water cycle to reduce the warming. If it is not true, one has to appeal to some subtle and complex things to explain why the climate doesn’t run away from positive feedback from water vapor alone.
I just had time to read the whole of your first comment (unlike you I’m quite slow at reading and writing with a touch of dyxlexia in my early years – probably still). For me this is the best general overview of our knowledge of climate that I have read since it comes at it from the right angle – involving nonlinear dynamics at the core, not just giving lip service to the same. What a refreshing contrast for instance to the sterile linear approach of – for instance – Gavin Schmidt – for whom climate is a static system at equilibrium with the ocean a passive puddle, the whole system only forceable from the outside. (Gavin is a very bright guy but locked in a dysfunctional paradigm like all the great mathematicians who worked for centuries on orbital epicycles.)
The above quote about climate equilibrium (intermittently changing equilibrium in the Lorenz sense, not permanent equilibrium in the Schmidt sense) may – if I am not wrong – represent also the Ferenz Miskolczi theorem. For all that we know and – more importantly – don’t know, there is a strong likelihood of the whole CAGW story being entirely wrong or even opposite of reality.
You should consider writing a text book with a title like “The cloud of unknowing – the nonlinear-chaotic dynamics of climate”. It could for instance follow the concept of Dawkins’ “Ancestors’ Tale” in having a chronological sequence, not from present to past or vice versa, but from long to short timescales. One could start from billion year to multi-million year timescales, then down to the recent glacial period (hundreds of thousands of years) and eventually to the subannual scale of weather. The unifying theme would be nonlinear dynamics where the same recognizable patterns would keep on showing up, illustrating fractality.
I cant think of a better person to write such a book than yourself (flattery gets you everywhere!). Such a book would be an essential starting point for study of climate to restrain the hubris on the subject which pervades current climate narrative. Your above post would be a significant fraction of one of the chapters.
I agree BTW with your comments about human affects on climate beyond CO2. Here at WUWT we should not convey the impression that we are complacent about any deleterious effects of human activity on the earth’s climate and ecosystem, your comments in this regard will I’m sure find agreement from many here.

rgbatduke
Reply to  rgbatduke
September 8, 2014 9:02 am

Write (another) book? Perhaps if any of my companies make a gazillion dollars for me. In the meantime, I must work for my meat and at the moment taking on ONE MORE PROJECT would be enough to put me right over the edge. The other problem with writing such a book is the same problem that plagues science in general. Nobody wants to read about null results. Showing that oatmeal is no better for you than steak as far as end-stage morbidity and mortality (if true) is not a popular conclusion with those that wish to believe otherwise. Margarine vs butter. Eggs vs an egg-free diet. Alcohol is bad vs alcohol in moderation is good vs no whoops it’s bad after all — nobody will admit that a) in many cases the marginal risk is tiny, and strongly controlled by other variables such as personal genetics and life-style so that even if it is true in one sub-population it is false or irrelevant in another; b) that small margins in highly multivariate problems do not lead one to a great deal of certainty, that in many, perhaps most cases in situations like this we don’t really know is the “right” answer.
It’s not just climate science, in other words. It is everywhere in science. Research physicians and biologists who can’t get funding and tenure for null results in medical science. Climate scientists who can’t get funding and tenure for null, non-catastrophic results in climate science. Physicists who probably won’t get funding and tenure if they elect to join the tiny number of physicists who are already pursuing the elusive chimerae of the field, e.g. magnetic monopoles. A few funded monopole traps is plenty — there just isn’t any point in running any more, which makes it a dead end for graduate students unless they come out able to work on something else, somewhere else. Or, of course, unless they find a reproducible monopole signature at 5 sigma in the 4 to 6 years they are likely to have running the apparatus for the PI.
The problem is rampant in the social sciences — studies have shown that it is far worse than in the hard sciences. If one is funded to do a study to see if being raised in a poor neighborhood makes it more likely that you will grow up with a twitch in your left eye, you’ll find some way to dredge the data to make it so rather than work for three years, get a completely null result on N=400 samples, and come back to request three more support to rule out a twitch in the right eye (and hope that you get tenure in the meantime).
The problem is reflected in the number of papers published that check other people’s work. The small number. Many papers are published, unchallenged, and the essential step of validation by an independent researcher (possibly working with independent methodology) is skipped, so that the unchallenged results move directly into the compendium of supposedly revealed truth in the field until, years later, somebody notices that they make no sense and finally get around to (maybe) falsifying them, if they can get the support to do so. And whenever real money is on the line — for example when considering the virtue of drugs that cost a half-billion dollars to develop and patent and gear up to manufacture on a large scale — companies are really crossing fingers that if anything does turn up to refute the carefully selected results from the original trials, it does so after the company has recovered most of this investment if not made a profit.
That’s why Briggs’ site is so very, very amazingly amazing and useful. If I had to pin down a major flaw in modern education, it is that most of the introductory statistics courses — usually the only course on stats that science majors take if they take any at all (in many majors, they aren’t required to take even one) they have time to — at most — crudely cover things like linear regression, p-tests, t-tests, the central limit theorem, chi-squared, and maybe R-squared. By crudely I don’t mean to imply that the presentation isn’t correct and accurate — only that they are strongly limited by the mathematical competence of the students taking these courses (who are the same students I teach physics too — after and while teaching them what amounts to remedial math including algebra, calculus, geometry — pretty much everything). They exit with a handful of hammers in search of nails and very, very little conceptual understanding or common sense understanding of physics.
Briggs addresses this with simple minilectures and rants that reduce a lot of the concepts to stuff simple enough for anybody to understand so that they can understand why fitting linear trends to e.g. timeseries data is a process that will lead to far less reliable knowledge of the timeseries than you think it will if you just apply the stuff you learned fitting normally distributed data around an actual underlying linear process in stats class, and that is before you fall into the trap of picking end points that maximally bolster your desired argument, a.k.a. cherrypick the data because of your rampant case of confirmation bias or a desire/desperate need to get funded and hence continue to be able to eat and buy your children shoes and orthodontics instead of working as a Wal-Mart greeter.
rgb

johann wundersamer
September 4, 2014 4:46 pm

@tty – referring to
‘isostatic
rebound had time to go much
further than during other
interglacials. All sites where
such very high sea-levels have
been reported are either
tectonically unstable or within
the “forebulge” zone of the
Laurentide ice-sheet.’
yields to: some watermarks going up, others going down.
so – is there evidence of lower sealevels on discrete shores?
/didnt read that thread all way down yet; maybe this argument’s already done/
Regards -Hans