Receding Swiss glaciers incoveniently reveal 4000 year old forests – and make it clear that glacier retreat is nothing new

By Larry Bell

Dr. Christian Schlüchter’s discovery of 4,000-year-old chunks of wood at the leading edge of a Swiss glacier was clearly not cheered by many members of the global warming doom-and-gloom science orthodoxy.

This finding indicated that the Alps were pretty nearly glacier-free at that time, disproving accepted theories that they only began retreating after the end of the little ice age in the mid-19th century. As he concluded, the region had once been much warmer than today, with “a wild landscape and wide flowing river.”

Dr. Schlüchter’s report might have been more conveniently dismissed by the entrenched global warming establishment were it not for his distinguished reputation as a giant in the field of geology and paleoclimatology who has authored/coauthored more than 250 papers and is a professor emeritus at the University of Bern in Switzerland.

Then he made himself even more unpopular thanks to a recent interview titled “Our Society is Fundamentally Dishonest” which appeared in the Swiss publication Der Bund where he criticized the U.N.-dominated institutional climate science hierarchy for extreme tunnel vision and political contamination.

Following the ancient forest evidence discovery Schlüchter became a target of scorn. As he observes in the interview, “I wasn’t supposed to find that chunk of wood because I didn’t belong to the close-knit circle of Holocene and climate researchers. My findings thus caught many experts off guard: Now an ‘amateur’ had found something that the [more recent time-focused] Holocene and climate experts should have found.”

Other evidence exists that there is really nothing new about dramatic glacier advances and retreats. In fact the Alps were nearly glacier-free again about 2,000 years ago. Schlüchter points out that “the forest line was much higher than it is today; there were hardly any glaciers. Nowhere in the detailed travel accounts from Roman times are glaciers mentioned.”

Schlüchter criticizes his critics for focusing on a time period which is “indeed too short.” His studies and analyses of a Rhone glacier area reveal that “the rock surface had [previously] been ice-free 5,800 of the last 10,000 years.”

More here: http://www.newsmax.com/LarryBell/warming-global-climate/2014/06/17/id/577481/#ixzz355f6L5y2

==============================================================

On Pierre Gosselin’s “No Tricks Zone” we have this:

Distinct solar imprint on climate

What’s more worrisome, Schlüchter’s findings show that cold periods can strike very rapidly. Near the edge of Mont Miné Glacier his team found huge tree trunks and discovered that they all had died in just a single year. The scientists were stunned.

The year of death could be determined to be exactly 8195 years before present. The oxygen isotopes in the Greenland ice show there was a marked cooling around 8200.”

That finding, Schlüchter states, confirmed that the sun is the main driver in climate change.

Today’s “rapid” changes are nothing new

In the interview he casts doubt on the UN projection that the Alps will be almost glacier-free by 2100, reminding us that “the system is extremely dynamic and doesn’t function linearly” and that “extreme, sudden changes have clearly been seen in the past“. History’s record is unequivocal on this.

Schlüchter also doesn’t view today’s climate warming as anything unusual, and poses a number of unanswered questions:

Why did the glaciers retreat in the middle of the 19th century, although the large CO2 increase in the atmosphere came later? Why did the earth ‘tip’ in such a short time into a warming phase? Why did glaciers again advance in 1880s, 1920s and 1980s? […] Sooner or later climate science will have to answer the question why the retreat of the glacier at the end of the Little Ice Age around 1850 was so rapid.”

On science: “Our society is fundamentally dishonest”

CO2 fails to answer many open questions. Already we get the sense that hockey stick climate claims are turning out to be rather sorrowful and unimaginative wives’ tales. He summarizes on the refusal to acknowledge the reality of our past: “Our society in fundamentally dishonest“.

– See more at: http://notrickszone.com/2014/06/09/giant-of-geologyglaciology-christian-schluechter-refutes-co2-feature-interview-throws-climate-science-into-disarray/#sthash.z6pKzqtQ.dpuf

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Nick Stokes
August 8, 2014 4:40 pm

Michael 2 says: August 8, 2014 at 4:19 pm
“By whom was it known? For 50 years the only person that “knew” continental drift was Alfred Wegener.”

The IPCC AR3, in 2001, devoted sec 2.4.2 to “How stable was the Holocene climate?”. And they list much variability. Of this event they say:
“The most prominent event in both records occurred about 8,200 years BP (Alley et al., 1997; von Grafenstein et al., 1998; Barber et al., 1999) when annual mean temperatures dropped by as much as 2°C in mid-Europe and the European alpine timberline fell by about 200 m (Wick and Tinner, 1999).”

Richard D
August 8, 2014 4:42 pm

Grouse

Richard D
August 8, 2014 4:46 pm

nick Stokes
>>>>>>>>>
35 years and 1/3 of one degree of warming C….Significant? Go grab your panties, snort…

kim
August 8, 2014 4:53 pm

Heh, almost 400 comments and no one took my bait about the sun being to far away to affect Earth’s climate. Was I too obvious?
=====================

Alan Robertson
August 8, 2014 4:53 pm

Richard D says:
August 8, 2014 at 4:42 pm
____________________
“Meet the new boss Same as the old boss” The Who– “Won’t Get Fooled Again”

Alan Robertson
August 8, 2014 4:55 pm

kim says:
August 8, 2014 at 4:53 pm
Heh, almost 400 comments and no one took my bait about the sun being to far away to affect Earth’s climate. Was I too obvious?
=====================
Maybe if you didn’t go around with that sarc tag on our forehead…

Alan Robertson
August 8, 2014 4:56 pm

pimf: “your forehead

kim
August 8, 2014 4:58 pm

And thanks, RGB@Duke for the insight about Leif. Awesome rigourous, ain’t he? He’s pondered these questions for a lifetime. I used to think he’d be the one to figure out the sun/climate connection, but now find that he’s the one to tell us what it isn’t. That’s very useful.
===============

Richard D
August 8, 2014 5:01 pm

Alan Robertson says:
+++++++++++++++++++++
Indeed

Nick Stokes
August 8, 2014 5:02 pm

Adam Gallon says: August 8, 2014 at 12:33 am
“http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7580294.stm,
The Schnidejoch glacier, produced evidence of Roman & Neolithic people being active in the high Alps, back in 2003. Took the BBC another 3 years to notice this.”

From that 2006 BBC report
“What fascinates scientists about the age of the finds is that they correspond to times when climate specialists have already calculated the Earth was going through an especially warm period, caused by fluctuations in the orbital pattern of the Earth in relation to the Sun.”
Dr. Schlüchter’s findings are not
“disproving accepted theories that they only began retreating after the end of the little ice age in the mid-19th century”

Richard D
August 8, 2014 5:06 pm

HGrouse says:
August 8, 2014 at 4:42 pm
Hopefully you and your offspring can adapt to rapidly changing temperatures.

No problem, I have electric central air and heating in addition to propane and a wood stove. You?

August 8, 2014 5:18 pm

Nick Stokes says:
August 8, 2014 at 5:02 pm
If the Team recognize(s) that climate has always changed cyclically, on what possible basis can it, they and you conclude that the 20 years c. 1977-96 were any different? Even in the thermometer record, there have been longer periods of even more rapid rise (accepting the adjusted “record”, which of course has been heavily stepped on in both directions) than during the late 20th century, so why posit CO2 to explain it, other than that CO2 just happened to be increasing then? Of course there were also periods of falling CO2 and rising temperature, as during the 1930s, and, as in c. 1944-76 now, rising CO2 and falling temperature, plus flatness all around.

Richard D
August 8, 2014 5:23 pm

Nick stokes worked hard for his money in this thread, me thinks. Lets give it up for Nick!

August 8, 2014 5:27 pm

Richard D says:
August 8, 2014 at 5:23 pm
The late, great Donna Summer, Queen of Disco, spoke excellent German.

Jimbo
August 8, 2014 5:36 pm

Glacial retreat is a terrible thing for well over 13 thousand years. We must all act now. The climate is changing.

The Maitland Mercury 1892
An Alaskan Glacier. The Muir glacier,….. The Muir glacier has once extended much further into the bay, and is now receding every year, while the sources of the ice supply are failing.
____________________
Examiner (Launceston, Tas.) 1906
IS THE EARTH GETTING WARMER?
That the earth is growing temporarilly warmer is shown by the mountain gla-ciers….The latest report includes 90 glaciers in the Swiss Alps, in Norway, Greenland, the Caucasus, the Pamir, the North West United States, Western Canada. and Africa, and practically all are grow-ing smaller. In the Savoy Alps and the Pyrenees small glaciers have quite dis- appeared.
____________________
The Brisbane Courier
1908
SHRINKAGE IN THE WORLD’S ICE MANTLE.
Prof. T. G. Romney has some very in-teresting things to say in “Nature” on what he calls “the shrinkage of the world’s ice mantle.”There has been a general retreat, he says, of the European glaciers since 1864….. In the French Alps, we learn, sundry small glaciers have quite melted away during the last few years…..
____________________
The Braidwood Dispatch and Mining Journal 1910
RECEDING GLACIERS.
“Except over a small area, it is gen-erally understood, the glaciers of the world are retreating to the moun-tains. The glacier on Mount Ser-miento in South America, which des-cended to the sea when Darwin found it in 1836, is now separated from the shore by a vigorous growth of timber. The Jacobshaven glac- ier in Greenland has retreated four miles since 1850, and the East glac- ier in Spitzbergen is more than a mile away from its original terminal”
____________________
The Argus 1912
A RECEDING GLACIER. HARBOUR BEING MADE.
A curious natural phenomenon is likely to result in Canada securing a new harbour. An investigation by the Alaska boundary surveyors has disclosed the fact that the Great Glacier, which is situated on Glacier Bay, is receding at the rate of a mile a year, according to measurements taken on the open water…
____________________
Cairns Post 1923
TEMPERATE ARCTIC
“The discovery by American seal fishers that of late there has been a remarkable increase in the mean tem-perature of the Arctic, and that in some parts of the Polar basin no ice has been seen less than 9 degrees from the North Pole, agrees with the ex- perience of many Arctic explorers in recent years…”
____________________
The Register News-Pictorial 1930
WARMER WORLD Weather Physicist Looks Ahead
The world is growing warmer. Dr. J. W. Humphreys, physicist of the Weather Bureau,…..”There is evidence, however, that the world as a whole is very slowly growing warmer,” he said. “The evidence is that glaciers in all parts of the world have been on the average slowly retreating since the culmina- tion of the Ice Age, and they are still slowly retreating….”
____________________
The Courier-Mail 1934
WORLD’S CHANGING CLIMATE Unsafe To Generalise
“The fact that during last year 81 of 100 Swiss glaciers decreased in size did not in any way indicate that the earth was becoming warmer and drier, said professor H. C. Richards, Pro- fessor of Geology at the Queensland University, yesterday, commenting on a message from Geneva concerning a world-wide drought. Even if the ob-servations of Swiss glaciers were con-tinued over a period of 50 years, he said, the data obtained could not warrant any general statement that the world as a whole was becoming drier or warmer…”
____________________
Sydney Morning Herald 1936
GRIM DISCOVERY. Bodies of War Victims.
The melting of a glacier 9000 feet up the slopes of Mount Danello in the Dolomites, revealed the bodies of one Italian and 15 Austrian soldiers who were presumably killed in an engagement in May, 1916. All the bodies were in excellent preservation.
____________________
The Courier-Mail (Brisbane) 1940
Greenland’s Climate Becoming Milder
“Professor Ahlmann was speaking on the collated results of his expedition to north-east Greenland, and he stated that the glaciers there showed clear signs of a change towards a warmer climate. As had been observed in other parts of the Arctic, especially in Spitzbergen, the melting had increased rapidly. By far the largest number of local glaciers in north-east Greenland had receded very greatly during recent de- cades, and it would not be exaggerating to say that these glaciers were nearing a catastrophe.”

Editor
August 8, 2014 5:37 pm

64 comments by H Grouse out of 389.

Richard D
August 8, 2014 5:43 pm

Ric Werme says: August 8, 2014 at 5:37 pm
64 comments by H Grouse out of 389.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yep, how many more paid lackeys in addition to grouse and nick stokes I wonder?

Jimbo
August 8, 2014 5:44 pm

I am stupefied, and it’s unprecedented. We must act now on co2. It all makes sense.

The stupefying pace of glacier melt in the 1940s
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/24/the-stupefying-pace-of-glacier-melt-in-the-1940s/

This is climate change. Coz that is exactly what the climate has always done. So let’s join hands and act. We never did it before, but let’s do it now so a few cunning fellow can make lots of money. You know it makes sense. (They think I don’t know who they are.) Oxurgh, Grantham, Al Bore (now dis investing), Pachauri former Glorioil et. al. There are many of them hiding, investing and claiming an emergency because they think people are just too dumb to see. Hello.

Richard Sharpe
August 8, 2014 5:49 pm

Nick Stokes says:

“What fascinates scientists about the age of the finds is that they correspond to times when climate specialists have already calculated the Earth was going through an especially warm period, caused by fluctuations in the orbital pattern of the Earth in relation to the Sun.”

Do you have the orbital parameters that caused these warm periods? Did they apply to the Holocene Optimum? The Roman Warm Period? The MWP?
Oh look. Steve McIntyre at Climate Audit has a whole category on the Holocene Optimum and the efforts by the team to minimize the various warm periods:
http://climateaudit.org/category/holocene-optimum/

Jimbo
August 8, 2014 5:54 pm

Let us not forget Alaska. Brrrr. Retreating glacier reveals 1,000 year old tree stumps. I have bee informed that it was all a northerly affair.

http://www.livescience.com/39819-ancient-forest-thaws.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/23/mendenhall-glacier_n_3975699.html

Treelines are just a pain in the arse. Children won’t know what a treeline is.

Abstract
….Here we present palaeoecological evidence for changes in terrestrial vegetation and lake characteristics during an episode of climate warming that occurred between 5,000 and 4,000 years ago at the boreal treeline in central Canada. The initial transformation — from tundra to forest-tundra on land, which coincided with increases in lake productivity, pH and ratio of inflow to evaporation — took only 150 years, which is roughly equivalent to the time period often used in modelling the response of boreal forests to climate warming5,6. The timing of the treeline advance did not coincide with the maximum in high-latitude summer insolation predicted by Milankovitch theory7,….
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v361/n6409/abs/361243a0.html
Abstract
……Tree birches (Betula pubescens Ehrh., B. pendula Roth.) reached the present-day shoreline of Barents Sea in Bolshezemelskaya tundra and 72°N in Taimyr between 8000 and 9000 BP……
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1552004?uid=2&uid=4&sid=00000000000000
Abstract
The palynological record of Late-Quaternary arctic tree-line in northwest Canada
Open woodlands with black spruce grew as far north as Sleet Lake from 8400 to 3500 yr BP. These woodlands gradually retreated to just south of Reindeer Lake during the late Holocene….
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0034-6667(93)90040-2
Abstract
Holocene pollen stratigraphy indicating climatic and tree-line changes derived from a peat section at Ortino, in the Pechora lowland, northern Russia
….Trees and a climate warmer than at present persisted until c. 3000 14C yr BP, when forests disappeared and modern dwarf-shrub tundra vegetation developed.
http://hol.sagepub.com/content/10/5/611.short

Mr "C_U_LATE_R" aka "chucK
August 8, 2014 6:33 pm

Proof this site is run by people that don’t have a clue:
REPLY: No, I think he’s right, especially since you used to go by “chuck” with a fake “c_u_later” email address. – Anthony

Nick Stokes
August 8, 2014 6:49 pm

Richard Sharpe says: August 8, 2014 at 5:49 pm
“Steve McIntyre at Climate Audit has a whole category on the Holocene Optimum and the efforts by the team to minimize the various warm periods:”

Ah yes, the team. Do you know who was co-author with poor persected Wegener Schlüchter on these wood discoveries?
TF Stocker. Co-Chair WG1 (IPCC).
Joerin, U. E., Nicolussi, K., Fischer, A., Stocker, T. F., & Schlüchter, C. (2008). Holocene optimum events inferred from subglacial sediments at Tschierva Glacier, Eastern Swiss Alps. Quaternary Science Reviews, 27(3), 337-350.
Joerin, U. E., Stocker, T. F., & Schlüchter, C. (2006). Multicentury glacier fluctuations in the Swiss Alps during the Holocene. The Holocene, 16(5), 697-704.
HORMES, A., SCHLÜCHTER, C., & STOCKER, T. F. (1998). MINIMAL EXTENSION PHASES OF UNTERAARGLACIER (SWISS ALPS) DURING THE HOLOCENE BASED ON 14C ANALYSIS OF WOOD ANNE HORMES, 1 CHRISTIAN SCHLÜCHTER1 and THOMAS F. STOCKER2. Radiocarbon, 40(2), 809-817.
etc

August 8, 2014 6:56 pm

Nick Stokes says:
August 8, 2014 at 6:49 pm
Yes, poor indeed.
As recently as 2008 he was a dues fully paid up, card carrying member of the Team. But now, cast into outer darkness for his heresies.

Latitude
August 8, 2014 7:04 pm

Nick Stokes says:
August 8, 2014 at 4:33 pm
They analyse the known forcings for the last 50 years, and show that alternatives could not produce the observed warming. This is by successive elimination, and confidence grows gradually.
But that is given knowledge of all forcings during the last fifty years. It does not claim that CO2 must have caused warmings in the past, when forcings were different, and not well known. It says that CO2 is the only remaining “control knob” in that 50-year period, when others have been eliminated.
====
…gobsmacked
They analyze forcings they don’t even know….and conclude it must be CO2..
What an incredible thing to say…..no one knows the forcings now

August 8, 2014 7:10 pm

Latitude says:
August 8, 2014 at 7:04 pm
And yet that is exactly their procedure. None dare call it science.
Their antiscientific method was well summed up by Al Gore, with respect to Arctic sea ice: “What else could it be?”

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