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New pictures of the hole in Yamal – and Pingo was its name-o

Matt Sexton writes via our contact form:

I just wanted to share with you a story that happened to me last night. My HOA had a community potluck and someone brought up the holes that “Had suddenly begun appearing in Russia”. Thanks to your site and the story about those holes, and was able to inform him about the real facts behind what was happening there. I was a little shocked, he is an otherwise intelligent guy, but, I couldn’t believe that he had latched onto the sensational aspects of the story without reading all the facts.

Either way, I thought you would like to hear that your site has positive effects even around small time, everyday things like a HOA potluck.

– Matt

Thanks Matt.

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“and though the holes were rather small, they had to count them all” (Lennon-McCartney)
Now they how many holes it takes to scare them awfully, now!

Vincent

Please excuse my ignorance here at the southernmost tip of darkest Africa, but what is a “HOA potluck”?
[HOA= Home Owners Association – potluck is “bring a dish to community dinner” – mod]

Jeff

Home Owners Association

John W. Garrett

I’ll second Matt Sexton’s commendation.
A year ago, a Harvard-educated physician friend telephoned in a panic after being subjected to an alarmist lecture that included sea-level rise. My friend owns a second home on a small creek and had been convinced by the alarmist that his property was in imminent danger.
WUWT’s Reference Pages enabled me to quickly locate a reputable academic source for actual sea level rise. As a result, I was able to point out that 3.2 mm/year (+/- 0.4mm) hardly qualifies as the nightmare scenario that had been painted by the lecturer aboard the cruise ship.
For me, WUWT is an invaluable tool in the fight to counter the incessant alarmist propaganda machine.

Anachronda

Presumably “HOA” = home-owners association, a group of folks that own homes in a specific neighborhood.
Potluck is a meal in which everybody brings something to share and how good the food is depends upon how lucky you are.

Resourceguy

Yes and the next phase is to realize you are addicted to WUWT and the efficiency in internet-based learning itself.

Richard Howes

Vincent says:
August 6, 2014 at 10:44 am
Please excuse my ignorance here at the southernmost tip of darkest Africa, but what is a “HOA potluck”?
———————–
HOA is HomeOwners Association
Potluck is a dinner where everyone brings a “pot” of food and share.

Jimmy

“Nature” has declared the holes to be due to methane eruptions, not pingos:
http://www.nature.com/news/mysterious-siberian-crater-attributed-to-methane-1.15649
While I’ve been skeptical of the pingo explanation, their evidence of a methane eruption seems really weak. The scientists based their methane eruption hypothesis on the fact that methane concentrations were quite high at the bottom of the hole. However, I would guess that if you dug a hole 70 meters down into methane-hydrate rich permafrost and exposed it to warm summer temperatures, you’ll end up with high methane concentrations even in the absence of an eruption.

rogerknights
Resourceguy

I used WUWT to point out to my kids that the propaganda message they got at school from a guest (activist) lecture about a hot spot in the mid troposphere from human-caused CO2 never happened. I also took the opportunity to point out to them what 400 ppm in the atmosphere is when expressed as a percent. We need some organized content tool to re-educate ourselves and loved ones in place of random responses to the distortion science biz. Thanks again!

Neil

Can someone help me out with this?
I know Wikipedia is not a reference (or, indeed, a reliable source of information for many topics). However, lacking knowledge about these things, I looked up Pingos, and found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingo.
I really can’t see a relation to the Yamal holes and the images in the Pingo article. Is there a better source of information that would clearly demonstrate this?
Thanks,

Jimbo

WUWT, filling in knowledge holes since 2006

And here was the firs post I think.

Welcome to: Watts Up With That?
Posted on November 17, 2006
3 Responses…………….

🙂

Jimbo
Crispin in Waterloo

I met a police officer over the weekend who was stunned to hear the temperature of the Earth was the same now as almost 18 years ago. I was able to refer him to the recent article by Monckton. Perfect timing. He said he had been completely sucked into the alarmist narrative and, after a brief tour, is now hungrily reading through the resources available here.
Thanks WUWT for ‘being here’.

kenw

Neil: not sure what you’re looking at but the relation is fairly clear to me. Granted the holes aren’t exactly the same altho it is fairly simmple to see that the creation mechanism is identical. But it wouldn’t surprise me to find that some AGW folks have changed the Wiki pics to some that look less like the Yamal holes just to sow confusion and doubt…..

kenw

Neil: now I see your point. The Wiki pics are either un’erupted’ or very old pingos. They do not show the characteristic hole as they remain simply expanded and enlarged, or have backfilled with stuff (highly technical term there…) over time. Either way, think of it as an Earth Zit.

Resourceguy

Speaking of knowledge holes, it is possible to keep track of commercial shipping using the vaunted Northwest Passage shipping lane in that mostly ice free alarmist reality distortion of the Arctic? I know the tracking number will be precisely zero most of the time, but it would be good to track it possibly with global maritime shipping stats and maritime insurance rates. The alarmists have a purpose in propping up distortion from time to time with the falsehood that there really is an emerging shipping lane there. It serves a purpose for them to fool the low information types. See Bloomberg etc for examples as though it really is a business story.

more soylent green!

All these polite definitions of HOA. Has nobody else ever had to deal with an HOA?

Dr. William Crafton

All this goes to underline that Some of the People can be Fooled All of the Time. Unfortunately it is fact, and there appears that there is little that we can do except pity them.

Rud Istvan

Resouceguy, the Canadian government already does. Any vessel attempting a Northwest Passage transit must register with Canada. In 2013, there were 23, including an ice strengthened freighter and two ice strengthened cruise ships. The freighter and one cruise ship made it. The other cruise ship and several other vessels had to be rescued by ice breakers. Some vessels turned around. A French vessel was abandoned for the winter and started an attempt to get out on July 25.

Neil says:
August 6, 2014 at 11:09 am

I really can’t see a relation to the Yamal holes and the images in the Pingo article. Is there a better source of information that would clearly demonstrate this?

At this point, I’m not convinced the Yamal things are pingos. I have no idea if they have a name.
The pingo process seems to me outght to be a pretty slow process, and that when things melt, we should be left with a pond of water, almost up to the land surface, especially since other holes are full.
The terrain looks very flat, so that would make artesian water flow unlikely, and would be the only way water could cause something like that to happen in days.
OTOH, I’m also not convinced that methane is a key player, though I can see
some possibilities.

As so often happens, the meaning of “potluck” has changed from its use when first attested in 16th century England. Then, it meant “the luck of the pot”, in that an unexpectedly arriving guest had to take his or her chances with whatever the host had available to eat. Its modern American meaning of “communal meal in which everybody brings something” stems from the 19th century Northwest, derived without changing the word by association with the NW Coast Indian traditions of potlatch. We no longer finish off the evening meal with displays of conspicuous consumption such as ceremonially killing a slave with a weapon designed for that purpose, however.

Bill Parsons

The casual nature of these encounters with nearly-ubiquitous ignorance highlights how important it is that people arm themselves; it serves, alsow, as a reminder to writers past and future, that they should be as factual and unbiassed as they can in reporting. You owe it to the readership to fact-check, spell-check, self-check (for bias).
Not everybody’s articles need be as laden with facts and support as Chris Monckton’s (for an ideal example), but that’s the right direction.
Bully for you, Matt Sexton! And good job to all who try to shed light into the vast, creepy darkness surrounding the profiteers of anthropogenic climate change.

Bill Parsons

unbiassed probably should be spelled “unbiased”.

Gordon Ford

They look.like the pintos I studied in Geomorphogy back in the 1960s

Tom in Florida

more soylent green! says:
August 6, 2014 at 11:29 am
“All these polite definitions of HOA. Has nobody else ever had to deal with an HOA?”
————————————————————————————————————————
In the past yes so perhaps a better definition would be:
HOA: an association of home owners headed by a homeowner who was duly elected and intended to do the right thing but power went to their head and they became a spendthrift tyrant thinking that they were the sole judge & jury of all things in the entire complex.
I will never again live in a place that has one of these.

D’md auto spell, pingos not pintos.

Philip

The odd thing to me, is that the hole seems to have very steep, smooth, regular walls, and resembles a very deep well.
I can not see any explosion leaving a crater like that.
The pingo explanation doesn’t really fit that well either. It doesn’t really explain the deep, smooth “shaft” like appearance.

more soylent green! says:
August 6, 2014 at 11:29 am
The word you are looking for is hoe. As in “garden hoe” or more likely “garden variety hoe”. Urban dictionary would define it differently.

inMAGICn

The latest here in Western Washington is our nimrod Governor whupping up a panic over “billions” of immature oysters dying off. He ascribes this to acidification of local waters due to (get ready for it) carbon dioxide. I am asking anyone who has any knowledge of any of this to respond. For the life of me, I hadn’t heard about the die-off, hadn’t read anything on acidification in the eastern Pacific, and I am basically in the dark here.
Thanks

AndrewWH

@ Resourceguy
August 6, 2014 at 11:26 am
Have a look at http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/home
It’s a non-military shipping tracker. There’s currently quite a bit of activity around Svalbard and Greenland but not much elsewhere in the Arctic.

pochas

Neil says:
August 6, 2014 at 11:09 am
“I really can’t see a relation to the Yamal holes and the images in the Pingo article. Is there a better source of information that would clearly demonstrate this?”
They look like garden – variety sinkholes to me, like the ones that occasionally swallow houses in Florida.

Give yourself another pat! While mine was not a potluck, I had a similar experience and calmly told the other guy that Pingo was its name-o!

Resourceguy

@Andrew
Thanks. That may include fishing vessels though, not exactly sea lane material. Some Barents Sea oil development may also show up.

Michael C. Roberts

inMAGICn: Cliff Mass Weather Blog has an excellent rebuttal to our state Gubnah Jay “I Will Impose a Carbon Tax Within My Tenure” Inslee’s assertion that a change in atmospheric CO2 (since onset of the Industrial Age) estimated at +/- 000.012% – has caused our local PNW waters to turn into oyster-killing “acid”:
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2013/11/coastal-ocean-acidification-answering.html
Try using this as a rebuttal to those oyster-chowder heads that scream “Acid! Acid! The Puget Sound is turning to Acid!” in your ear (as well as through the local news sources) as the warmistas/carbon dioxidians attempt to sway those “low-information” types (that are still unfortunately registered to vote in yesterday’s elections – even though the tide appears to be slowly turning locally on that front) into believing a miniscule change in the apparent concentrations of atmospheric CO2 can cause all manner of ills!! even killing those poor, defenseless baby oyster spat!!!

Reg. Blank

@Neil
On that wikipedia page, check out reference 11 ‘ Holmes, William. “Pingos in Central Alaska”. United States Government Printing Office.’
Check out the pictures on pages H28/H29.
Check some of the other references too.

Political Junkie

More on the HOA theme.
When my grandson was learning to speak, his great joy was to hear Santa go – Ho! Ho! Ho!
With him sitting on my lap I entered “Santa’s Ho” into an internet search engine.
Bad idea!

Jon the Technologist

I demonstrated CO2 in the atmosphere using a bag of rice. Told the guests present that the bag held 10,000 grains of rice. Removed 4 – CO2 in atmosphere. Attempted to cut one grain into 12
pieces – 1 piece human contribution. Applause. Denialist grade?

Paul

I wholeheartedly agree. The reference pages are a great tool against the warmist propaganda.

Steve in SC

Of course we all know that the artesian pressure that caused this pingo is totally due to the fraking going on in the gas field 30 km away. /sarc

Oh thank heavens its not just ME philjourdan! I sing that stupid song every time I see the word pingo!
*For those who are lucky enough to have never heard/been forced to sing the song-
“There was a farmer had a dog and BINGO was it’s name-o…B…I…NGO…B…I…NGO….B…I…NGO and Bingo was it’s name-o.”
Repeat again but remain silent when it’s time to sing “B”….then again and remain silent during the “B” and the “I”…..repeat until all letters are silent or until you rig a noose for yourself and kick out a chair. *
Our HOA gets a bad rap, but does a great job. Of course the first thing we did was HIRE an HOA manager who would get fired if the books don’t balance, the community is not maintained, etc. Poor man deserves more than we can afford to pay him to deal with some of the “H.O.”s that’s for sure!

Dave Wendt

inMAGICn says:
August 6, 2014 at 12:15 pm
The latest here in Western Washington is our nimrod Governor whupping up a panic over “billions” of immature oysters dying off. He ascribes this to acidification of local waters due to (get ready for it) carbon dioxide. I am asking anyone who has any knowledge of any of this to respond. For the life of me, I hadn’t heard about the die-off, hadn’t read anything on acidification in the eastern Pacific, and I am basically in the dark here
Not exactly a field of personal expertise but, as I recall from a previous sortee into this topic some time back, the pH of coastal waters, particularly in your area, are dominated by upwelling deep ocean waters which are lower PH.
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v6/n9/full/ngeo1916.html
Microbial biogeochemistry of coastal upwelling regimes in a changing ocean
http://www.climate.gov/news-features/features/upwelling-crisis-ocean-acidification
Both of these are full of the usual overwrought BS(Bad Science) about the oceans becoming more “corrosive”. Of course what most of these babblers choose to attempt to conceal is that for pH a value of 7 is the zero point. Values that move away from 7 to the low side become more acidically “corrosive”, while values that move from 7 to the upside become more “corrosive” as they move toward Lye at the upper extreme, but this would imply that as pH moves from 8.2 to 8.1 it is actually becoming less “corrosive”.

Jeff

For those not familiar with the, er, joys of a Home Owners’ Association (HOA, otherwise known as the gathering place of the local control freaks/obsessive compulsives), a humorous treatment is given in the movie “Over the Hedge” (ostensibly a kids movie, but works for those of us in our second childhood too 🙂 ).
Granted, HOAs can be really helpful (no purple, pink, fluorescent green, or gunmetal grey houses in the neighborhood…), but also can be a bit of a pain (your front lawn is 1/2 inch too high, you must trim it NOW) (yep, it did happen….). YMMV or YHOAMV…

Give yourself another pat from the southern tip of darkest Africa !
My daughter had read in our local newspapers about the Yamal hole and asked me about it . Bingo Pingo !!I I read out the WUWT info and she was impressed . Thanks , WUWT

Brute

Yes, it is a great resource. Thank you, Watts.

I am a lucky man. I am 80 years old and never got trapped into attending a HOA Potluck. But, if luck turns, I will take a large platter of glazed Pingo Holes as my contribution.

@JOhn Coleman – They are not as tasty as donut holes. 😉

inMAGICn

Thank you, Michael and Dave.
This oyster thing was on the front page of the Daily Olympian on 8/4. The whole thing caught me off guard. I was unaware of the “crisis.”

MrX

Woah, woah, woah! You mean to tell me this blog isn’t strictly about climate change? It’s about any kind of trivia that “we” would find puzzling?
Also, I agree that this site is an excellent source of references. It’s funny that for all the AWG sites out there, they contain virtually no facts. At this site, everything is referenced and the reference page keeps growing over time.

H Grouse

pingo, dome-shaped hill formed in a permafrost area when the hydrostatic pressure of freezing groundwater causes the upheaval of a layer of frozen ground.
(reference: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/461054/pingo )

Notice that in the very center of the hole that appeared in Yamal….
http://strangesounds.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/huge-crater-discovered-yamal-peninsula.png
Has a noticeable ABSENCE of an “upheaval”
..

@Ric Werme at 11:41 am
The terrain looks very flat, so that would make artesian water flow unlikely, and would be the only way water could cause something like that to happen in days.
Look at the video still from
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/07/18/new-pictures-of-the-hole-in-yamal-and-pingo-was-its-name-o/
There is a creek that I think must be the drain away from the Pingo’s summer melt. It starts narrow, and fans out in the distance. I take this to mean that the Pingo is on a monocline and is not flat. I have yet to see Lat and Long for the any of the holes.
I found Facilities for Bovanenkovo at 70 12.5′ N 68 50′ E, elevation 50-60 ft. If you go 20-30 miles from this point, you can see similar terrain NE, SE, and SW. SW as the smoothest terrain but it is more than 30 km away.
But to your point about artesian systems and pressure, the highest elevation I can find in Google Earth in the neighborhood is 240 feet, with many places in the 30-50 ft elevation. So an artesian system is possible, but I grant you it is a stretch. If the hole is at 150 ft, there is not much terrain above it to drive an artesian spring. But if the hole is at 30 ft, you have the head needed to drive a spring, but today the water level would have to be below sea level — a possibility if Gazprom has been pumping hard, but it is a strike against the artesian system theory.
SE high point: 165 ft at 70 05′ N 69 31′ E
NE high point 220 ft at 70 43′ N 70 07′ E
SW high point 152 ft at 60 42′ N 67 41′ E
These are not possible hole locations, but the high points to drive an Artesian system.