Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
As a result of my post on energy storage entitled Getting Energy From The Energy Store, a few people brought up the idea of replacing our current energy sources such as gas and oil with hydrogen (often written as H2, because two hydrogen atoms make up one hydrogen molecule).
You see this on the web, that we could power our civilization on hydrogen, convert all the trucks and buses to run on hydrogen, they call it shifting to a “hydrogen economy”… and why not? You can burn hydrogen just like natural gas, you can run an internal combustion engine on hydrogen, what’s not to like? Here’s a typical intro to an analysis:
A Comparison of Hydrogen and Propane Fuels.
Hydrogen and propane have long histories of being used as fuel. Both fuels can be used safely if their physical, chemical, and thermal properties are understood and if appropriate codes, standards, and guidelines are followed. Although the properties of hydrogen have been compared to those of propane and methane, these comparisons were made to facilitate appreciation of the physical and chemical differences and similarities among these fuels. It is not possible to rank these fuels according to safety because plausible accident scenarios can be formulated in which any one of the fuels can be considered the safest or the most hazardous.
So what’s wrong with this comparison, between hydrogen and other competitive fuel sources like propane and methane?
What’s wrong is that people misunderstand hydrogen. Unlike say propane or methane, hydrogen is not an energy source. There are no hydrogen mines. You can’t go out and drill somewhere into a deposit of pure hydrogen and bring it back home to burn.
And why can’t we mine or drill for hydrogen and bring it home and burn it to power our cars?
The reason we can’t mine and burn hydrogen is simple … it’s all been burnt already. The nerve of nature! I mean, people are always warning that we’ll burn up all the fossil fuels, and now we find out that nature has already gone rogue on us and burned up all the hydrogen …
Figure 1. Burnt hydrogen, showing the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
Most of the burnt hydrogen we call “the ocean”. Another bunch of burned hydrogen we call ice and rain and rivers and lakes. But there’s no hydrogen that is available for drilling or mining—it’s all bound up in other compounds. And as a result, hydrogen is not a source of energy—it is merely a way to transport energy from Point A to Point B.
[UPDATE April 17, 2023: It’s been pointed out to me that there is one small hydrogen well in Africa, and that there is hydrogen produced naturally by reactions with water in the depth of the earth. However, as far as we know currently, it only collects in commercial quantities under very unusual conditions. Most is constantly escaping in tiny seeps. In addition, the global annual geological H2 production, not usable production but total production, is estimated at 23 Tg/year, which contains energy equal to less than 1% of the world’s annual energy usage. A possible future energy source for the globe? Seems doubtful, but it’s early days, time will tell.]
And this in turn means that the main competition to hydrogen, what we should be comparing it to, is not natural gas, nor propane as the quote above says, nor any other gas.
Instead, the main competition to hydrogen, the true comparison, is to electricity, which is our current means of transporting energy. Saying that we could “power our civilization on hydrogen” is as meaningless as saying we could “power our civilization on electricity” … neither one is a source of power, they’re just different ways to transport energy around the planet.
This is not to say that hydrogen is not useful, merely to clarify what it is useful for—transporting energy from one place to another. It is not a source of energy, it is a way to move energy. This distinction is very important because it lets us make the proper comparison, which is not comparing hydrogen to propane as they did above, but comparing hydrogen to its real competition—electricity.
Now, compared to electricity as a means of transporting energy, hydrogen suffers from a number of disadvantages.
The first disadvantage results from what I modestly call “Willis’s Rule Of Small Stuff”, which states:
It is far easier to move electrons than to move molecules.
This rule has ramifications in a number of fields, particularly the transportation of energy. For example, consider the difference between moving a large amount of energy on a constant basis over say a hundred miles (160 km) by the two competing transportation methods, electricity and hydrogen.
For electricity, you just have to move electrons. So you string a pair of copper wires up on poles from Point A to Point B, and … well … that’s about it. You hook one end to a generator of electricity, and a charge appears at the other end of the wires. There’s not much leakage, not many problems of any kind. The system is robust and relatively safe, and able to withstand storms and temperature extremes.
Now, consider moving the same amount of energy as hydrogen. For that, you have to move molecules. First off, you need a pipeline. Now, we’re all familiar with pipelines for moving energy. The trans-Alaska pipeline is a fine example. Pump oil in at one end, add some pumping stations along the route to keep it moving, and oil pours out the other end.
Hydrogen, though, is a very difficult beast to pump through a pipeline. To start with, hydrogen has very, very low energy density. So you have to pump a huge amount of it, about 4,000 times the volume of gasoline or oil for the same energy.
Next, hydrogen is incredibly sneaky. Do you know how a rubber balloon filled with helium gradually loses its helium over time? The helium is small enough to go through holes in the rubber balloon, tiny holes that are too small for air to pass through. Well, hydrogen is even worse. It can escape right around a piston in a pump, and run happily out through the pipe threads in any pipeline connectors. It requires special gas-tight connections from end to end of the delivery chain. You can’t just stick the hydrogen pump nozzle into your gas tank like you can with gasoline or diesel. So moving the molecules of hydrogen turns out to be a much, much harder problem than moving the electrons with electricity.
The second disadvantage of hydrogen as a means of transporting energy is the low energy density mentioned above. In general, the energy content of fuels varies with their density. So for example, diesel has more energy per liter than gasoline, which is lighter. And alcohol is even less dense, so it contains less energy per liter than either gas or diesel.
Now, consider hydrogen gas. Figure 2 shows a chart comparing various materials regarding energy density in two different measures—megajoules per liter (MJ/L), and megajoules per kilogram (MJ/kg).
Figure 2. Energy density of selected materials. Vertical scale is in megajoules per litre, and the horizontal scale is in megajoules per kilogram. Hydrogen is at the lower right. Click to embiggen. SOURCE
This leads to an oddity. Hydrogen gas has a huge amount of energy per kilogram … but almost no energy per liter. Gasoline holds about 35 megajoules per liter (MJ/L). But even compressed at 700 bar (about 10,000 psi) hydrogen has only about 5 megajoules per liter. That means that you have to move a lot of hydrogen, or pack a lot of it into a car or truck fuel tank, to have enough energy for practical purposes.
Now folks are always claiming that this problem will be solved by adsorbing the hydrogen onto the surface of an as-yet-unknown sponge-like substance from which it can be recovered as hydrogen gas by heating the substrate. But that can’t possibly be as energy-dense as liquid hydrogen, and liquid hydrogen has only a measly ten megajoules per liter. So adsorbing it will not solve the problem.
Nor will liquefying it, seeing as how you have to keep liquid hydrogen at about 240 degrees C below zero (-405°F) … not practical.
And that means that if someone wants to store much energy, say at a hydrogen fueling station, well, they’ll need a whole lot of high-pressure tanks with special fittings, and they’ll need to be about six times as large as the corresponding gasoline tanks to contain the same amount of energy. Or if they are storing the hydrogen adsorbed onto the surface of some as-yet-undiscovered material, they won’t need to be high pressure, but they’ll need to be even bigger.
The third disadvantage of hydrogen as a transportation medium is safety. Yes, electricity is dangerous, of course. But electricity isn’t flammable, and hydrogen is extremely flammable. Hydrogen has an unusual quality. Most fuels only burn when there is a certain ratio of fuel to oxygen. But hydrogen will burn whether it’s a little hydrogen mixed with a lot of air, or a lot of hydrogen mixed with a little air. Not only that, but the hydrogen flame is colorless, smokeless, and invisible in sunlight … a very bad safety combination.
The fourth disadvantage of hydrogen is something called “hydrogen embrittlement”. Here’s a crazy fact. Hydrogen molecules are so small that they can leak out through solid steel. It can either react with steel, or it can leak right through the steel. But that minuscule slow leakage is not the real problem. The real issue is that hydrogen penetrating into and through the metal lattice weakens the steel, fatigues the metal, and decreases fracture resistance. In the long run, it can embrittle solid steel to the point where it cracks all the way through after only a slight impact.
The final disadvantage of hydrogen as a transportation medium is that after using hydrogen to transport energy from A to B, it is hard to convert the hydrogen back into other useful forms of energy. For example, electricity can be used to drive a crankshaft, heat a cup of tea, shoot a railgun projectile at supersonic speeds, energize a magnet, wash my clothes, power a laser, propel a train via linear induction, light up a football stadium, split water into hydrogen and oxygen, charge my computer’s battery, or to drive a chemical reaction against an energy gradient.
Out of all of those uses, hydrogen can drive a crankshaft with very low efficiency compared to electricity, and it can heat a cup of tea … yes, you can use hydrogen in a fuel cell to convert it back to electricity, but that kinda defeats the purpose.
I mean, isn’t it rather goofy to use electricity to create hydrogen, transport the hydrogen, and then convert it back to electricity??? What’s wrong with this picture? Why not just use the electricity directly?
All of this taken together, of course, is the reason that our civilization did not adopt the use of hydrogen as an energy transportation medium, and we settled on electricity instead … because, well, it’s kind of a no-brainer. For just about any purpose you can name, including transporting energy around for powering cars and trucks, hydrogen is well down on my list of good candidates.
Now, if I can just find out who burned up all the hydrogen and didn’t save it for the grandkids like Death Train Jim Hansen advised us to do …
w.
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Catcracking says:
July 1, 2013 at 9:43 am
“That’s abuse of natural resources.”
Well said.
The typical biofuel nutjob is that first they take huge amounts of natgas to produce fertilizers (typically several tens of thousands cubic feet of natgas per 1 ton of fertilizer), then they rob from the people the tax money – sometimes literarly when we see what the IRS thugs sometimes do – take several tens percent arrable land, plough it and put there the fertilizer using machines taking loads of diesel, plant the biofuel crops, wait half year while the crops utilize typically 0.1-1% of solar input to convert it in usable biomass, then they again take the diesel machines, harvest the crops, use another diesel machines to transport the usable parts in the distilery, then they make the ethanol from it, put it in the gasoline and transport it using another diesel machines to the tankstation only to make the resulting mandated gasohol carry less energy per unit, leave wasteland behind and half mankind starving.
(And this disastrous crazines is promoted by the same guys who want the “hydrogen economy”, claiming hydrogen has higher energy density – It hasn’t! Even if liquid. Because the liquid hydrogen has density only 71 grams per liter, so you would need four times bigger tank for the liquid hydrogen to contain same amount of energy as with the gasoline, not speaking about all the prohibitive technical difficulties of the liquid hydrogen handling, that the tank definitely wouldn’t be the simple piece of metal plate or plastic produced for couple of $ and that your engine would need to be four times bigger for the same performance than the one using the gasoline…)
Of course it would be much easier and efficient to use the natgas directly, convert the natgas to LPG or even the gasoline and with all that (un)wasted diesel transport them directly to the tankstation. But explain this to the nuts in the government, manipulated by other nuts who want your money and at the same time themselves and you to believe you’re “working together saving the planet” when giving all the money to them.
The Russians found hydrogen gas at great depths in their Kola borehole: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Superdeep_Borehole
jdallen says:
July 1, 2013 at 1:35 am
Others have commented on your inability to read and spell, so let me just thank you for posting the Lovins piece. It is a perfect example of the type of hype that I am working to dispel. After reading my article, people can compare the reality to the pipe dreams of Amory Lovins.
He pays lip service to the fact that hydrogen is not an energy source, just an energy transportation method. But you have to watch the walnut shells very carefully to see which one contains the pea. Here’s his explanation:
BZZZT! An energy “source” is some substance, either natural or refined, which contains more energy than we’ve expended to get it. Both crude oil and the results of refining it (gasoline, diesel, etc.) are energy sources because when we burn them, we get more energy out than we put in.
He continues …
BZZZT! Logic fail. If refined crude oil is not an energy source as he falsely claims, then why would “refined lightning” actually be an energy source? You see what I mean about the pea and the shell?
Watch the pea again. What he means is “the most concentrated energy carrier by weight in the universe”, which is true but meaningless, because he’s not proposing using liquid hydrogen. He’s proposing an economy run on hydrogen gas, and one liter of gasoline carries the same energy as 4,000 litres of hydrogen gas. In fact, hydrogen gas is arguably the least concentrated energy carrier by volume in the universe, and that’s the problem—it’s tough to move or carry a large enough volume to do much good.
Now, that’s just hilarious. Storing it uncompressed? Every gas station in the nation would have to have 4,000 times the storage capacity, just to store the energy they currently keep on hand. But storing hydrogen as a compressed gas immediately costs you 15% of the energy content and a hunk of cash, because you have to store it at 10,000 psi. This requires complex pumps, machinery, and very thick steel tanks … so no, Lovins is just blowing smoke when he says it is “easily stored in large amounts.
And even compressed to 10,000 psi, it still takes up six times the volume that gasoline requires … where are inner-city gas stations supposed to find space for that? Not to mention the huge cost in pumps and tanks, that’s madness.
Anyhow, JD, thanks for posting the Lovins article, it illustrates exactly the kind of lunacy that I’m discussing.
All the best,
w.
For the most part I agree with Willis. The problems with hydrogen are well described.
But hydrogen also has some advantages
1. It is far easier to store hydrogen than electricity
2. If you need to transport really huge amounts of energy over very long distances it will probably be cheaper to use a hydrogen pipeline than electric power wires.
This can be useful if we one day in the future choose to cover huge desert areas with solar cells. The surplus energy in daytime can be stored as hydrogen and transported in pipelines to where it is needed.
Willis Eschenbach says:
July 1, 2013 at 11:02 am
So no, adsorbing the hydrogen does NOT give it an energy density in MJ/l comparable to gasoline, that’s not correct. That system of adsorbing the hydrogen in a lattice can never give an energy density greater than that of liquid hydrogen … and that is far below the energy density of gasoline.
My understanding is that the best absorbents being studied today hold about double the H2/L of liquid H2. However, as you point out that is still way below gasoline.
Storing it uncompressed? Every gas station in the nation would have to have 4,000 times the storage capacity, just to store the energy they currently keep on hand.
Yes but remember how up to 60 odd years ago H2 was distributed with a low pressure system with 50,000 m^3 gasometers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_holder
TimTheToolMan says:
July 1, 2013 at 5:53 am
Oh, please. I spent a number of years teaching renewable energy technologies for the Peace Corps. I am the author of the US Peace Corps manual on the village level utilization of wind power. I have lived for long periods off the grid, on solar power alone. I was hired by USAID to travel around Africa and write reports on, inter alia, renewable energy projects and how well they were doing. I worked in Fiji doing the same thing, reporting to the government on the success (and mostly failure) of solar energy schemes in outer-island Fijian villages. And as a sailor, I’ve used wind-powered transportation to travel thousands and thousands of miles around the planet. So in fact, I’ve been a very active proponent of renewable energy all my life … where it is appropriate.
When you do things like that, you learn important lessons that they don’t mention in the books, like the nautical saying, “The wind is free … but everything else costs money”. This is a saying of great relevance to the solar industry, where the cost of the solar cells is only a small part of the whole installation, but when the total installation and transmission cost is included, solar is not competitive at the grid-scale level, despite the fact that the sunshine is free …
So my problem is that I know too damn much about renewables, not too little. I know that they are unbeatable in certain situations. If you want to power a cell tower on top of a mountain, solar is a no-brainer.
But I also know that if you want to power a city, solar is a disaster … and hydrogen isn’t even a power source.
You think that you get around this by claiming that
But as I’ve shown, hydrogen is a fundamentally lousy way to store energy as well as a very poor way to transport it. Even compressed it has very low energy density and requires very high pressure (10,000 psi), so you need huge, heavy expensive steel tanks and complex pumps to store it, and in addition, you lose 15% of the energy in the compression process, plus it is extremely flammable … how on earth is that a good way to store energy?
So please, give me a bit of credit here. I said above that one of my rules of thumb is that it’s far easier to move electrons than molecules, and I also commented that my rule of thumb has meaning in many fields.
For example, it’s easy to write about renewable energy—to do that you just need to move the electrons. And I’ve done that, plenty of it.
But I’ve also moved lots of molecules regarding renewable energy—I’ve designed and built the renewable energy systems, and monitored and maintained and repaired them, and I’ve taught others by example and by actual construction how to build and maintain them, and I’ve lived for years off the renewable energy generated. And that’s the hard part, much harder than moving the electrons.
So when I talk about the negatives of renewable energy in certain situations, if you go back and look at what I’ve written, you’ll find that what I’m writing about are inappropriate uses for the particular type of renewable energy. And in each case, including this current post, I’ve buttressed my argument with real-world figures and data and examples.
You, on the other hand, appear to be an expert in moving the electrons, but it’s not clear what lies beyond that …
w.
Kasuha says:
July 1, 2013 at 11:13 am
The electricity actually isn’t the electrons. It is the electromagnetic field moving through conductors which carries the electricity. One of the public secrets of the N. Tesla invention of the Alternating Current is that the electrons actually don’t need to get from the source to the point of consumption to bring there the energy. This is what makes the AC much more suitable to transport the electricity at longer distances than DC – it has much less losses due to the fact, that the electrons must not travel in the conductor long distances, but are just oscilating at short distances of like less than micrometer for 60 Hz AC back and forth. This oscillation actually carries the electric current – in fact it is the free electrons which make the material called conductor, they’re itself carriers of the eletricity, not the electricity itself – and can be converted at the point of consumption to various types of energy using various types of electrical devices. Using just couple of millimeters thick coper wires and suitable AC frequency you can transport to releatively long distances simmilar amounts of energy as in the case of the thick steel shaft transporting by torque to wheels of the car from the combustion engine. That’s what makes the electricity so suitable for energy transportation.
So for Willis – it is even much easier to move electromagnetic field, which is actually the electricity, than move the electrons “from A to B” 🙂
What always remains is the need of the energy source (enthalpy potential) to create the field – same as for separating the hydrogen, presurizing it, liquefying it and keeping it liquid and/or at the same place not to escape and burn and blow up something. The “hydrogen economy” would be maybe viable in space or on the planets where it is least minus 200 C or 600+ bar and no significant amount of oxygen in the atmosphere, not on the Earth. I regret we don’t live in times where we would have enough technology to transport the “hydrogen economy” lovers to such planets where their idea would be viable…
Even any marketing expert could tell you hydrogen isn’t viable; It would be in place by now. If there were a basic problem with H that needed to be handled, it would be done by now.
Time’s up.
Were inventors smarter a hundred years ago? The internal combustion engine and the electric motor, both utterly indispensable to this day, their legacy ever increases. Now, the Hydrogen People, they’ve been shooting their mouths off for decades, and what do we got? In fact, how many hundreds, no, thousands of nonsensical projects like this are being funded with my money and borrowed monies? This is insanity.
In business you have to perform. When you work for government, all you have to do is secure and increase votes. The media is bought on all these topics.
But, but….it’s the most plentiful element!
PiperPaul says:
July 1, 2013 at 7:17 am
Thanks, Paul, that’s interesting. I would have thought if they couldn’t use water they’d use alcohol or something that would flash off. Do you happen to know the “safety blast radius” and the test pressure for a big storage tank whose working pressure is 10,000 psi?
w.
Scott Scarborough says:
July 1, 2013 at 7:18 am
Seems doubtful, although I suppose it might be possible. As you say the problem is the metal part. It is heavy, as you point out, but it also takes up a reasonable fraction of the tank volume … and since that is not filled with hydrogen, you’d have to really pack the rest of the space to beat liquid hydrogen.
So let’s pick some representative numbers. Let’s say we’re adsorbing hydrogen onto palladium. The density of palladium is 12,000 kg per cubic metre. Let’s be optimistic and say that that palladium only takes up only 2% of the tank volume. So in a cubic metre tank, we have 120 kg of palladium.
Now, liquid hydrogen in the same space would weigh 71 kg. So we’re already screwed when it comes to energy density by weight.
By volume? Well, we have about 2% less volume. But there has to be free space on one side of the hydrogen that is adsorbed on the surface of the palladium, so it can come back out of the matrix. If we assume (again optimistically) that the vacant space is no larger than the space taken up by the adsorbed hydrogen, all we have to do is to assume that on the surface of the palladium the hydrogen is packed twice as tight as it is in liquid hydrogen …
So like I said … seems very doubtful, although I’ve been surprised before. Does anyone have actual numbers for the energy density by volume of adsorbed hydrogen?
w.
A question for you eggheads. How viable is having tens of thousands of tanks or pipes with hydrogen in a city? Would hydrogen-rigged cities or large power stations be tempting targets for war/terrorists, bombs and so a health hazard? How much of the reason hydrogen ain’t happening is in that it’s simply too dangerous? What happens when you ‘splode a hydrogen tank…how bad is it? Storing electricity means a loss, but it doesn’t explode.
OK, from here, page 25, energy density of adsorbed hydrogen on the best substrate known (carbon nanotubes) still does not exceed the energy density of liquid hydrogen, either by weight or by volume. And it is still far below the energy density of any of our common fuels.
w.
Willis, great post. We agree on some energy things, although not on peak fuel production.
You overlooked another BIG disadvantage of hydrogen, which is net thermal efficiency. Forget hydrogen production, and consider only transport and use.
I don’t know hydrogen transport costs, since pipelines don’t work and there is no bulk system for comparison. But cryogenic liquid hydrogen would be worse than LNG since much colder. LNG energy cost is about 20%. In w well maintained modern electricity grid, transmission and distribution loses are about 10%. Maybe 15% for a rural system. The heat losses are mostly in the transformers or in resistive connections. Electricity wins.
Hydrogen can be burned in an ICE. But that is stupid, since efficiency is set by Carnot and thermodynamics, and is at best about 26%. Ah, we will use fuel cells. Well, those are about 65-70% efficient. You see, the water ‘exhaust’ is hot. By comparison, a good electric motor approaches 99% efficient, and a bad one with poor wiring connections is still more than 94% efficient.
There is no way that hydrogen conserves more energy than electricity. Let alone that no practical bulk transport means is known. Let alone that almost all hydrogen is reformed from natural gas, and it would be more efficient to just burn the natural gas. Or hydrogen could be made by electrolysis using electricity– but is would make more sense to just transport and use the electricity, say in a range extended PHEV like the Volt or PlugIn Prius.
The only thing hydrogen is good for is future energy grants from the same folks that fund CAGW research. That is, not much.
Regards
Thanks for the tip. Tried Photobucket. If it doesn’t work just delete the post.
http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/ChrisSchoneveld/media/electricitypricecomparison_zps3bb01d56.jpg.html
Willis Eschenbach says:
July 1, 2013 at 12:39 pm
So like I said … seems very doubtful, although I’ve been surprised before. Does anyone have actual numbers for the energy density by volume of adsorbed hydrogen?
“It is possible to increase the density of hydrogen beyond what
can be achieved via compression or liquefaction through
materials-based hydrogen storage. This is possible because in
many hydride-type materials, hydrogen is packed with H–H
distances as small as 2.1 Angstroms,21 resulting in hydrogen
densities up to 170 g H2/L—a factor of more than 2 greater
than the density of liquid hydrogen.”
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~djsiege/Energy_Storage_Lab/Publications_files/CSR_H2_storage.pdf
chris y: One popular configuration uses a nanorod comprised of 8 carbon atoms.
Excellent!
Willis hydrogen in pure form (H2) is just as much an energy source as any conventional hydrocarbon used to power our current IC-engine’s , and production of it f.x. by hydrolysis is in a way more comparable to the process of refining petrol and diesel out of the crude pumped up from the oil wells. And a lot of hydrogen is transported around today in pipelines ( think water distribution/supply ) without problems. Some of the other drawback you point out like the low energy densitity per volume (at STP conditions) and leakage/storage problem seem to have usable enginering solutions for some applications at least , f.x. like in the FCX Clarity test/demo/concept car that Honda has put few examples of on the road. I has a 170 liter fuel tank pressurised at 350 bar with a capacity for 5 kg of hydrogen fuel , that gives it a driving range well over 500 km per/tankfill.
Now , I am no starry eyed “hydrogen econmy” apostle , I just think that there may be some future possibilites of practical application resulting from fuel-cell technology , but I am also well aware that it is nowhere near the status of becoming economically “sustainable” and therfore not viable as an real alternative to current technology yet.
Russell says:
July 1, 2013 at 8:03 am
Dear Russell:
Unlike the climate alarmist blogs you might frequent, around here we don’t censor or hide opposing opinions. An accusation that we are doing so merely demonstrates two things—that you are not paying attention, and that your intention is to harass rather than to either learn or edify.
Yes, you are quite correct, and I was well aware of that when I wrote it. I thought about calling the stuff not in the ocean “carbonized” rather than oxidized, but after consideration I took a bit of poetic license and just left “burnt” in there. I write for a very mixed audience, from specialists in the subject to literate lay folk with an interest in the subject, and so it is always a question how far I want to stray into the gory details. I write to inform, and paradoxically, providing too much information can get in the way of that process. In this instance, I thought the lack of chemical precision was worth it because it didn’t add to the narrative. But that’s a judgement call, and I could have been wrong.
My point, however, was not doubly wrong, or wrong at all. My point was that there is are no hydrogen mines out there because all of the hydrogen is locked up in compounds. And your objection, while 100% true, in no way changes that sad fact.
Thanks for pointing that out, although next time you might strive to be less offensive and accusatory in the pointing … I generally have reasons for the choices I make in my writing, next time you might inquire what they are before breaking out the howitzers.
w.
Willis, where I worked before retirement, they produced hydrogen as byproduct of salt electrolyses. That was sold to others via pipeline by Air Liquide (not sure, could be another firm). One day they installed a liquid hydrogen tank on site as backup for the (rare) cases that the production went in emergency shutdown, to give them the time to bring one of their own hydrogen production units (from natural gas) online.
For a test, they filled the bottom of the tank with liquid hydrogen. Fascinating sight that ambient air was condensing on the last drops of hydrogen that were spilled after filling.
The tank was not equiped with a compression unit, but evaporated hydrogen was pumped into the hydrogen network line.
What I wonder is how much of the energy contained in the hydrogen was used to liquify the hydrogen. Must be a lot for compression ánd cooling…
Willis, you fail to understand that unicorn farts are pure Hydrogen. That’s what will get the Hydrogen economy running, full scale unicorn farming (and flatulence capture systems). I’m sure that after the first unicorn ranches are proven successful, Hydrogen will take its place on the top of the list of the available and inexpensive fuel sources.
(do I really need the /sarc?)
I think John Deere made a commercial Diesel Hydrogen hybrid about a decade ago and had it on the market for a while. I cant find it on their current website but I did not look for long. Here is an old link.
http://www.greencar.com/articles/john-deere-hydrogen-powered-utility-vehicle.php
New Holland apparently has something like it
Maybe some other tractor companies? Does anyone know? Makes more sense in a heavy vehicle like a tractor, and the hybrid thing makes some sense too, use the excess electricity from the engine to make H2 (don’t know if that is how they do it).
Anyone know more about it?
========================================================================
A figure of speech, used properly and honestly, can illustrate and/or communicate a point better than the literal facts.
PS I thought somebody already did cold fusion? … or was that just a headline?
Matthew R Marler says:
July 1, 2013 at 9:31 am
Thanks, Matt, but dang … miss the point much? I didn’t say more energy was moved by electrons than by molecules. I said it was easier to move electrons than molecules.
For a clear example, think about replacing the electrical grid in New York City with a fleet of thousands of tank trucks delivering the equivalent amount of energy in the form of gasoline, and then getting it up to the 85th floor or wherever the energy is actually needed … which one would cost more on an ongoing basis?
That’s what I mean when I say it’s far easier to move electrons than molecules. The infrastructure to do it is smaller, cheaper, and more robust; the frictional and other losses are lower; it requires less human intervention and labor; and the logistics are far simpler when you are moving electrons as opposed to molecules.
Here’s another example. Why do you think email is replacing printed letters with stamps?
Because it is cheaper and easier to move the electrons that make up an email than to move the molecules that make up a letter, particularly since to move the letter’s molecules you also need to move the molecules that make up the postman and his/her truck … electrons win again.
w.
I must apologize for my sarcasm, I was trying to be witty but the subject is really no joke.
If we kan find a safe and efficient way to increase the storage density of Hydrogen to say within the order of magnitude of gasoline when we include the tanks it has the potential to be an excelent energy carrier (easier to store than electrones). It’s a big if and many, esepcially in Europe, has been misled by the appearent introduction of the technology as “hydrogen cars” and “hydrogen buses”. With a lot of media coverage a few of these are presented by the local transit authorities as “test vehicles”, only to have the program closed down in months due to technical problems and cost issues without any media coverage.
This “tests” are really a marketing drive to sustain the public support for state funding of the very large R&D programs, primarily into storage and fuel cell technology. The risk of not solving the storage problem for the foreseable future is severly undercommunicated to the general Public.
Just Google “hydrogen bus” and you will see what I mean.
You will read a lot about how the only exhaust is water vapour and how efficient the hydrogen is converted to mechanical energy, nothing about how the storage in large composite tanks take up valuable interior space, that the range is still impractical short and the formation of hydrogen produced a lot of CO2 (assuming that is a problem).
I fully agree with Willies points about the dangers and problems with hydrogen as an energy carrier and until the fundamental storage problem is solved (and Palladium is not the solution, even if it was cheap it is to heavy to be practical) it makes little sense to invest much in the comparably trivial engineering issues of infrastructure and generation.
Until then I agree we should stay with hydrocarbons as energy carrier for all appliactions that rely on onboard fuel. After all, the only application I know of where hydrogen was determined to be the best solution was the Apollo moon rocket electricity generation. But for NASA cost was irrelevant, weight the design criteria and water worth its weight in Palladium.