What We Don't Know

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Back in August 2010, WUWT ran an article wherein it was claimed that variations in the sun changed the rate of radioactive decay. This, of course, flew in the face of years and years of experimental evidence, starting with the Curies, that the rate of radioactive decay is constant, unaffected by pressure or temperature or anything else.

However, this claim that the sun could change radioactive decay rates was shortly challenged by a follow-up article at WUWT and then a second follow-up, both of which threw cold water on the idea.

dark energy matterFigure 1. Mass of the universe, by type. SOURCE

So I was interested to stumble across an announcement issued by Purdue University in August 2012, which strongly confirmed the reality of the phenomenon. Purdue has applied for a patent for the use of this effect as a means to supply advance warning of solar flares.

I found this most interesting, however, not because it affords a chance to have warning of another Carrington Event, although that would be great in itself. Instead, I found it interesting for a curious reason involving the mechanism whereby the sun is able to affect the rate of radioactive decay.

The thing I really like about the mechanism, about the way that the sun is able to influence the rate of radioactive decay, is that we don’t have any idea what it is or how it works.

Truly. Nobody has a clue. It was first noticed in 2006, and to date we have no idea how the sun does it. But Purdue says it clearly, repeatably, and demonstrably works. When the sun changes, radioactive substances all over the world change their rate of decay.

There have been years and years of attempts to see if we could artificially change the rate of radioactive decay. Obviously, if you could do that, it would be incredibly useful. But despite experiment after experiment, no one has ever discovered any combination of environmental variables that would change the rate of radioactive decay … until now, or so it seems at this time.

Now, don’t get me wrong here. I don’t think that the sun rules the climate, and I’m not discussing the sun for that reason. I’m not one of the “It’s the sun, stupid” folks. I don’t think any of the forcings rules the climate—not the sun, not CO2, not methane, not volcanoes, none of them.

Instead, I think the earth’s temperature is set by interlocking homeostatic mechanisms. These natural and poorly studied emergent phenomena have laughed off the effects of huge meteor strikes, and long-term vulcanism, and a slow rise in the solar output, and kept the earth within a surprisingly narrow temperature range at all scales, from centuries to millions of years. We think nothing of the fact that next year won’t be much different from this year … and yet that stability, of plus or minus one tenth of a percent in the global average surface air temperature variation over the last century, is actually quite surprising and demands explanation.

So I’m not talking about the sun affecting the climate. I bring up this question of the sun affecting the rate of radioactive decay for one reason—to highlight just how much we don’t know about this marvelous, mysterious infinity that surrounds us. People talk about Trenberth’s famous “missing heat”, where he described one of the many parts of climate science that is poorly understood—energy that he says is incoming but can’t be found or accounted for.

But given that we seem to have misplaced both the dark energy and the dark matter that make up 96% of the mass of the universe … well, when you can’t find hide nor hair of almost everything the universe contains, that kinda makes not finding a few zetajoules in the climate system pale by comparison …

Let me take another example. In 2010 it was discovered that thunderstorms function as huge natural particle accelerators. Who knew? Here’s a description of the mechanism:

… when particularly intense lightning discharges in thunderstorms coincide with high-energy particles coming in from space (cosmic rays), nature provides the right conditions to form a giant particle accelerator above the thunderclouds.

The cosmic rays strip off electrons from air molecules and these electrons are accelerated upwards by the electric field of the lightning discharge. The free electrons and the lightning electric field then make up a natural particle accelerator.

The accelerated electrons then develop into a narrow particle beam which can propagate from the lowest level of the atmosphere (the troposphere), through the middle atmosphere and into near-Earth space, where the energetic electrons are trapped in the Earth’s radiation belt and can eventually cause problems for orbiting satellites.

I loved that last bit. Using a giant particle accelerator to affect a satellite? Good science fiction, but utterly outrageous that it’s actually happening. One way to recognize emergent behavior is that it is not readily predictable from a knowledge of the conditions. I’d say a thunderstorm suddenly forming a giant particle accelerator that can blast a satellite, well, that would definitely qualify as unexpected and not predictable … and here’s another one.

Thunderstorms give off burst of gamma rays. They found out by accident a few years ago when the gamma ray satellite “Fermi” looked at the Earth. Not only that, but the gamma rays in turn give off bursts of antimatter, which get shot off into outer space …

fermi gamma ray antimatter

I’ve had no success trying to establish the amount of energy in one of these terrestrial gamma-ray bursts, no clue. But there are about 1,100 of them per day, and although they are short they are very energetic … so how much energy is lost to space that way?

I find both of these phenomena quite interesting in that they appear, at least, to be a way that the world loses energy to space that is not accounted for in the usual budget. Among other things, we’re blasting positrons into space … go figure.

Remember that the tropical thunderstorms are an emergent phenomenon. They are formed and cluster around the hot spots, so they are removing energy directly where it is needed. As a result, although it may not seem like a lot when it is averaged over the surface of the planet, in the area where it is happening it is very significant.

Here’s another way the planet loses energy that’s not in the conventional accounting. Consider lightning. My back of the envelope calculations show that at something like 5 billion joules per strike, it accounts for about 0.2 W/m2 of energy averaged over the earth’s surface. Some of that is released in the form of heat, and some in the form of light … and that’s where it gets interesting, because something like half of that light will be radiated upwards. You can see it clearly from the space station.

Now, very rough calculations I’m sure someone can improve upon, if light is half the lightning energy and heat is the rest, and half the light escapes to space, that’s less than a tenth of a W/m2 … but again, that’s averaged around the globe. The thunderstorms mostly occur in certain areas and certain times where they are needed to cool the surface. And in those areas and times, the loss of energy to space in the form of light could easily reach several watts per square metre.

I bring up all of this stuff because it’s unknown, it’s stuff we barely understand, or not even that much. But it’s hard for me to describe the point I’m trying to get across, so let me give a couple of quotes that may explain it. First, from the famous scientist J. B. S. Haldane:

Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.

I find that greatly encouraging. It means there will always be new things to find out. Like the poet Robert Browning said,  “A man’s reach should exceed his grasp. Or what’s a meta phor?”

Then we have the famous scientist William Shakespeare, who might have been describing the sun affecting radioactive decay when he has Horatio say: :

HORATIO

O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!

HAMLET

And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I suspect that eventually we’ll figure out just how it is that the sun is able to affect radioactivity, something that we thought could not be affected by anything. Of course, by then there will be some new phenomenon that’s just as mysterious.

And in the meantime, as we discover any new and fascinating thing about the climate, it seems to me that we should “as a stranger give it welcome”.

My point relates to the famous claim by Gro Harland Bruntland, the chief climate cheerleader for the IPCC, who said:

So what is it that is new today? What is new is that doubt has been eliminated. The report of the International Panel on Climate Change is clear. And so is the Stern report. It is irresponsible, reckless and deeply immoral to question the seriousness of the situation. The time for diagnosis is over. Now it is time to act (Brundtland 2007).

Well … no. Doubt has not been eliminated, nor will it ever be … and that’s great news.

And as for the consensus of more than 97% of scientists, you know, the ones who said that nothing could change the rate of radioactive decay? …

It’s doing about as well as consensus science ever does, meaning it’s right until it’s wrong, and in neither case does it affect the truth on the ground.

My best to all, keep up the questioning,

w.

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DirkH
May 14, 2013 6:38 am

izen says:
May 14, 2013 at 5:49 am
“It does the rep of WUWT no good at all, just confirms the suspiscions of the mainstream science crowd to report on crank science like this.”
Attempts at censorship by a lousy concern troll. Go away.

DirkH
May 14, 2013 6:40 am

ken nohe says:
May 14, 2013 at 5:29 am
“Yes we need to keep our minds open but as Carl Sagan said not so much that the brains fall off!”
says a Carl Sagan, premier proponent of the worst computer model of the Earth ever that he used to “prove” his nuclear winter conjecture…

Adam
May 14, 2013 6:42 am

If changes in the Sun can alter radioactive decay rates, how would that affect Carbon Dating? I hate to mention it but the likes of Kent Hovind (aka Dr Dino) have been claiming for many years that Carbon Dating is flawed, that the rate of decay is not constant and therefore cannot be used to rule out a 6000 year old Earth.
Now please don’t get me wrong. I am not claiming that the Earth was created 6000 years ago. I am just saying that they have been saying that the rate is not constant, and have been dismissed out-of-hand, yet here we are discussing that very thing. Funny old world.

D Johnson
May 14, 2013 7:15 am

I agree with Tom Vonk above, but I lack his apparent depth of knowledge of physics.
I’m a Purdue engineering graduate from a half century ago, but have never considered Purdue as a likely source for major physics breakthroughs. Pretty good for training us engineers though.
I suspect Lubos Motl will shred this result on his blog if it comes to his attention. As with Greeks and gifts, it’s best to avoid amateur physicists bearing revolutionary theories.

Paul Linsay
May 14, 2013 7:21 am

Fishbach has a history of claiming tiny new effects that violate known physics. In the late 1980s he was finding evidence for a fifth force, even weaker than gravity. This was in addition to the four known forces: strong, electromagnetic, weak, and gravity. Sprinkle salt on page while reading.
“Introduction to the Fifth Force.” E. Fischbach and C. Talmadge, in 5th Force – Neutrino Physics, Proceedings of the XXIIIrd Rencontre de Moriond, Les Arcs, France, 23-30 January, 1988, edited by O. Fackler and J. Tran Thanh Van (Editions Fronti`eres, Gif-sur-Yvette, 1988), pp. 369-382.

May 14, 2013 7:21 am

Re radioactive decay.
I’ll throw a “wild-ass-guess” into the mix… the universe is full of dark matter and dark energy, which exert “pressure” on our particles. Generally it’s constant. Lets assert that the solar flare produces a spike in energy that pushes back on that pressure for a short time, making it easier (ie. more likely) for the particles to overcome the nuclear forces that keep the radioactive particles bound.
The result would be that during a flare, radioactivity increases.

May 14, 2013 7:25 am

I don’t think that the sun rules the climate, and I’m not discussing the sun for that reason. I’m not one of the “It’s the sun, stupid” folks.
But, but…
block out the sun (maybe put the moon in between the sun and Earth) and what happens? The area in the sun’s shadow becomes measurably cooler.
While the sun may not “rule” the climate while it is relatively stable, even small fluctuations in it will produce a measureable change.
I agree – it isn’t only the sun, but virtually all of the other climate effects certainly feed off of the sun do they not?
Sorry, don’t mean to derail the topic, but I believe we must be careful to not underestimate the sun’s effects.

izen
May 14, 2013 7:40 am

@- DirkH
“Attempts at censorship by a lousy concern troll. Go away.”
Okay, you are right, reporting crank science is not really a concern for WUWT. Its reputation amongst the mainstream science community is not going to drop any lower as a result.
It cant.

May 14, 2013 7:47 am

Think about the way a Geiger-Muller detector works. A thin wire in the center of a small diameter tube with a high voltage charge from the wire to the tube. When ionizing radiation passes through the tube, a gas molecule is ionized (an electron is “released”) and a discharge takes place. This causes a drop in voltage which is counted.
When I was in the Navy I built a relaxation oscillator from a standard neon lamp (like you see in a pilot light or signal light or even some of the more common, orangish colored, night lights) a capacitor, resistor and a 90 volt battery. After playing around with the capacitor and resistor, I got it to flash at exactly 60 times per minute. I was a Nuclear operator and wondered if it would do the same thing as the Geiger-Muller detector. So I placed it as close as I was allowed to get to the reactor. The lamp flashed faster, and the rate also depended upon the power level of the reactor. Although the radiation level was not strong enough to cause continuous discharge of the lamp, the radiation level was changing the level at which the lamp discharged, and thus the frequency of the flashes.
Using this as a basis, here are my thoughts on why an atom will change its decay rate. We still have no clear idea how magnetism works. Yes there are theories, but just that – Theories. Is it possible that when the magnetic flux level from the Sun changes it will also change the energy needed or the level at which an atom decays? Photons, radiowaves, etc. are all “electromagnetic” waves. Is magnetism just another form of an electromagnet wave? Does it influence the behavior of an atom similar to the ionizing particle whizzing past it in the Geiger-Muller tube? This is something that could easily be tested by placing a radioactive source in the field of a supercollider magnet and measuring the decay rate.

May 14, 2013 7:47 am

1. The missing mass / dark matter issue dates back to the 1930s and Fritz Zwicky. He used the Virial Theorem to show that clusters of galaxies were unstable, based on the Eddington mass-luminosity rule. Vera Rubin found a similar discrepancy when it became possible to do velocity spectra for the arms of spiral galaxies. As one astronomer quipped; the only problem is that our rules are off by 10^110 power. The dark matter / dark energy postulates just replace one puzzle with another one.
2. The carbon 14 dating was shown long ago to be variable. Questions about relative ages of henges (early observatories) were seriously contradictory. When correlations were done with dendrochronology (tree rings), the discrepancies are obvious. The current theory is that atmospheric carbon 14 production varies with cosmic radiation, but how would you check for cosmic ray variation? There are serious discussions going on now about where cosmic rays come from.
3. What IS going on in the far reaches of the universe? Is the fine structure constant not constant? How come the red shift / luminosity ratio does not seem to be constant? These are big questions, and there is little agreement thus far about any answers.This has only recently become an issue, as our ability to detect supernovas in exceedingly distant galaxies has blossomed with new technology.
4. Are we seeing what we think we are seeing? Look at any of the Hubble Deep Field images and tell me what you think.
5. In the last 100 years, science has been far better at providing new questions than providing new answers, that is for certain!

Dr. Lurtz
May 14, 2013 7:58 am

If you want to change the “NATURAL rate of radioactive decay”, you build a nuclear bomb or a nuclear power plant. These tend to accelerate the NATURAL rate.
Extreme UV from the Sun enters the upper atmosphere; the “almost cosmic rays” disrupt atoms freeing neutrons. The neutrons enter the radioactive elements that we measure. Guess what, a speed up of NATURAL radioactivity.

Berserxes
May 14, 2013 8:00 am

Thingadonta said:
“My first thought, is that since nearly all the matter in the earth originally comes from the sun (apart from a few stray comets), the matter in the earth and the matter in the sun are possibly connected in some way at the subatomic level, like the ‘action at a spooky distance’ that occurs in quantum mechanics”
My understanding is that the sun primarily produces helium from its beginning until now. More aged stars (red giants, for example) produce the other lighter elements, and then the heavier elements require a supernova. I don’t think the sun produced much of any of the matter of Earth, although most everything in our solar system perhaps came from the same gas and dust cloud produced from earlier star deaths.

Steve Keohane
May 14, 2013 8:11 am

Thanks Willis, way cool! What we don’t know is more interesting than what we do. It is easy to forget how little we do know, when we suffer the delusion of being in control of our destinies.

Steve Garcia
May 14, 2013 8:19 am

This is another case of constants that vary, even though scientists tell us they are constant. I was just watching Rupert Sheldrake’s TED Talks presentation, in which he recounts how he found this via the British Museum that the speed of light varied between 1928 and 1945, and how he took that finding to the head of the British Metrology panel. He also points out (without discussion) that Big G – the gravitational constant, also varied by 1.3%.
The YouTube is at

Steve Garcia

Vince Causey
May 14, 2013 8:25 am

Fred Berple,
You wrote “The standard twin paradox does not consider the case where the twin on earth is experiencing a constant 1 g acceleration and the twin traveling in the space ship also experiences constant 1 g acceleration on an elliptical path reaching say 0.8c before eventually returning to earth.”
I am unsure whether you are implying that the twin on Earth is experience 1 g of acceleration due to the Earths gravity alone, and therefore this is equivalent to accelerating at 1 g in a space ship. Are you saying that if you take this equivalence into account, both twins should be of the same age?
You would be wrong to do so, because you have failed to see where symmetry is broken. The best way to examine the situation is if each twin could observe the clock ticking on the other twins reference frame. Let us accept a priori that when the reference frames are moving apart they observe each others clocks ticking slow relative to their own, and when they are approaching, the clocks appear to be ticking faster.
As the space traveller moves away, each twin observes the other twins clock ticking slower. So far, both frames are symmetrical. Now imagine the space traveller has reached his destination and stops before turning around. The space traveller immediately sees the earth twins clock now ticking at the same rate as his own. However, the light from the space ship will take time to reach the earth – say x years. Until that light reaches the earth, the earth bound twin still sees the space traveller as moving on the outward journey, and his clock moving slower.
The symmetry is broken, since the earth twin sees the space travellers clock ticking slower for longer than the space traveller sees the earth twins clock ticking slower. By the same reasoning, on the return journey, the space traveller sees the earth twins clock tick faster immediately he starts moving, but the earth twin won’t see the space travellers clock tick faster until the light has reached him. Overall, by the time the space traveller has return to earth, he has seen the earth twins clock tick faster for a greater part of the time he was away, and the earth twin has seen the travellers clock tick slower for longer. It must be that when they come together, the space traveller is indeed younger.
It is important to realise that gravity and acceleration is not needed (and is irrelevant) to the discussion of time dilation and the twin paradox. It is only relative motion that matters and is a logical inference from the finite and constant speed of light.

May 14, 2013 8:26 am

TomVonk
Your attack against Willis is unwarranted. WUWT is a most welcome and largely open science discussion forum. Posters, readers and commenters come from a wide range of experience, providing a much needed MULTI-DISCIPLINE perspective. We all welcome constructive additions to an uplifting dialogue for us all.
“It is known what the beta decay depends on – it is the coupling constant for weak interaction….and….this coupling constant varies slightly with energy”
IF A CONSTANT VARIES…IT IS NOT A CONSTANT. The fact that ONE parameter is known to effect decay rates, should compel the curious to question that we have adequately examined ALL of the factors that cause the decay rate changes. Many reject the “all knowing” aspect of a wide range of “settled science”, including decay rate and decay BY-PRODUCT ELEMENTAL ATOM RATIOS. Wiki lists twelve “daughter” atoms from Uranium decay, but is this the limit under ALL conditions ? ? ?
In the pie chart on matter, note that stars are claimed to be only 0.4% of the total matter and that gas and DARK matter compose 26.6% in the big bang model. It is curious that this large amount of fictional matter does not block light from the presumed edge of the Universe, now approaching 14 billion years. Even the “father” of the big bang rejected this fable…see, “Mysterious Dr X Says Universe Is NOT Expanding” at Canada Free Press. We have many gilded ox to gore.

Jim G
May 14, 2013 8:35 am

Great article! Just one more proof that whenever we accept that “the science is settled” we step away from science and step into the realm of religous fervor. To me, a clue is whenever observational data does not fit our present concepts of how things work and we are required to make up new “things” to fit the data, we may want to question if our concepts might be missing something. Dark matter and dark energy visa vi our understanding of gravity are an excellent example.
Where is Dr. Leif on this solar finding? Perhaps delayed at the altar of existing accepted theory? I await a zinger from His Nibbs.

May 14, 2013 8:36 am

Thanks TomVonk
“So we have something like the sensationnal announce a year ago that neutrinos emitted in Geneva and captured in Italy were travelling faster than light. Unprecedented, ground breaki ng, Einstein was wrong etc etc. Of course it was shown later that the measure was an artifact.
This sun- beta decay correlation is for me (in that order)
– an artifact
– a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with the Sun itself (and even less with the hypothetical dark matter)
– a fake
###########
it is a good thing that TomVonk and other scientists do not follow Poppers rules or Feynman rules.
When an observation conflicts with theory you have 3 choices, not 1.
A) question your data
B) modify your theory
C) Toss the theory
And you will only do C if you have a viable replacement that explains as much as Theory C

Steve Garcia
May 14, 2013 9:07 am

From the particle accelerators above the clouds article, “The zone above thunderstorms has been a suspected natural particle accelerator since the Scottish physicist and Nobel Prize winner Charles Thomson Rees Wilson speculated about lightning discharges above these storms in 1925.”
This article (which talks about sprites) is a bit of a surprise, since when sprites were seen about 15-10 years ago they were seen as a surprise at that time. The writing is ambiguous: Did Wilson speculate on the lightning discharges POSSIBLY existing? Or was he aware that the sprites existed and then speculated on the natural particle accelerator being the cause? Either way he got it pretty much right.
Steve Garcia

markx
May 14, 2013 9:08 am

Joseph A Olson says: May 14, 2013 at 8:26 am
In the pie chart on matter, note that stars are claimed to be only 0.4% of the total matter and that gas and DARK matter compose 26.6% in the big bang model. It is curious that this large amount of fictional matter does not block light from the presumed edge of the Universe, now approaching 14 billion years. Even the “father” of the big bang rejected this fable…see, “Mysterious Dr X Says Universe Is NOT Expanding” at Canada Free Press. We have many gilded ox to gore.
Interesting to note that dust is theorized to produce a red shift – so perhaps that is really what we see in our ‘expanding universe’?

Redshift by cosmic dust supports the death of the Big Bang Theory
The death of the Big Bang Theory predicted by Zwicky in 1929 and proclaimed by Marmet 20 years ago is supported today by QED induced redshift of galaxy light in cosmic dust that negate Hubble’s expanding Universe based Doppler shift…

http://www.prlog.org/10568265-redshift-by-cosmic-dust-supports-the-death-of-the-big-bang-theory.html

May 14, 2013 9:21 am

Actually LENR and certain plasma interactions have been known to influence radioactivity decay rates as well… My guess is that we are going to “rediscover” the “aether”….
LENR library…
http://lenr-canr.org/index/Summary/Summary.php

May 14, 2013 9:21 am

This calls for an experiment.
1. Fine tune the methodologies for measuring and recording the rates of change of radioactive decay.
2. Conduct parallel experiments on Earth and Mars to determine if distance affects the effect.
Mars is about 4 light minutes further from the Sun so you have to do a really good job on Part 1 before you attempt Part 2.
If the effect is delayed by about 4 minutes on Mars then you will know it is an effect the energy flux from the Sun. If the effect is simultaneous then you will have something much more interesting.

NotARealClimateScientist
May 14, 2013 9:23 am


“Now imagine the space traveller has reached his destination and stops before turning around.”
“It is important to realise that gravity and acceleration is not needed…”
How does one stop and turn around without acceleration?