Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Pushed by a commenter on another thread, I thought I’d discuss the R. W. Wood experiment, done in 1909. Many people hold that this experiment shows that CO2 absorption and/or back-radiation doesn’t exist, or at least that the poorly named “greenhouse effect” is trivially small. I say it doesn’t show anything at all. Let me show you the manifold problems with the experiment.
To start with, let me give a curious example of the greenhouse effect, that of the Steel Greenhouse. Imagine a planet in the vacuum of space. A residue of nuclear material reacting in the core warms it to where it is radiating at say 235 watts per square metre (W/m2). Figure 1 shows the situation.
Figure 1. Planet in outer space, heated from the interior. Drawing show equilibrium situation
This planet is at equilibrium. The natural reactor in the core of the planet is generating power that at the planet’s surface amounts to 235 W/m2. It is radiating the same amount, so it is neither warming nor cooling.
Now, imagine that without changing anything else, we put a steel shell around the planet. Figure 2 shows that situation, with one side of the shell temporarily removed so we can look inside.
Figure 2. As in Figure 1, but with a solid steel shell surrounding the planet. Near side of the shell temporarily removed to view interior. Vertical distance of the shell from the surface is greatly exaggerated for clarity—in reality the shell and the shell have nearly the same surface area. (A shell 6 miles (10 km) above the Earth has an exterior area only 0.3% larger than the Earth’s surface area.)
[UPDATE: Misunderstandings revealed in the comments demonstrated that I lacked clarity. To expand, let me note that because the difference in exterior surface area of the shell and the surface is only 0.3%, I am making the simplifying assumption that they are equal. This clarifies the situation greatly. Yes, it introduces a whopping error of 0.3% in the calculations, which people have jumped all over in the comments as if it meant something … really, folks, 0.3%? If you like, you can do the calculations in total watts, which comes to the same answer. I am also making the simplifying assumption that both the planet and shell are “blackbodies”, meaning they absorb all of the infrared that hits them.]
Now, note what happens when we add a shell around the planet. The shell warms up and it begins to radiate as well … but it radiates the same amount inwards and outwards. The inwards radiation warms the surface of the planet, until it is radiating at 470 W/m2. At that point the system is back in equilibrium. The planet is receiving 235 W/m2 from the interior, plus 235 W/m2 from the shell, and it is radiating the total amount, 470 W/m2. The shell is receiving 470 W/m2 from the planet, and it is radiating the same amount, half inwards back to the planet and half outwards to outer space. Note also that despite the fact that the planetary surface ends up much warmer (radiating 470 W/m2), energy is conserved. The same 235 W/m2 of power is emitted to space as in Figure 1.
And that is all that there is to the poorly named greenhouse effect. It does not require CO2 or an atmosphere, it can be built out of steel. It depends entirely on the fact that a shell has two sides and a solid body only has one side.
Now, this magical system works because there is a vacuum between the planet and the shell. As a result, the planet and the shell can take up very different temperatures. If they could not do so, if for example the shell were held up by huge thick pillars that efficiently conducted the heat from the surface to the shell, then the two would always be at the same temperature, and that temperature would be such that the system radiated at 235 W/m2. There would be no differential heating of the surface, and there would be no greenhouse effect.
Another way to lower the efficiency of the system is to introduce an atmosphere. Each watt of power lost by atmospheric convection of heat from the surface to the shell reduces the radiation temperature of the surface by the same amount. If the atmosphere can conduct the surface temperature effectively enough to the shell, the surface ends up only slightly warmer than the shell.
Let me summarize. In order for the greenhouse effect to function, the shell has to be thermally isolated from the surface so that the temperatures of the two can differ substantially. If the atmosphere or other means efficiently transfers surface heat to the shell there will be very little difference in temperature between the two.
Now, remember that I started out to discuss the R. W. Wood experiment. Here is the report of that experiment, from the author. I have highlighted the experimental setup.
Note on the Theory of the Greenhouse
By Professor R. W. Wood (Communicated by the Author)
THERE appears to be a widespread belief that the comparatively high temperature produced within a closed space covered with glass, and exposed to solar radiation, results from a transformation of wave-length, that is, that the heat waves from the sun, which are able to penetrate the glass, fall upon the walls of the enclosure and raise its temperature: the heat energy is re-emitted by the walls in the form of much longer waves, which are unable to penetrate the glass, the greenhouse acting as a radiation trap.
I have always felt some doubt as to whether this action played any very large part in the elevation of temperature. It appeared much more probable that the part played by the glass was the prevention of the escape of the warm air heated by the ground within the enclosure. If we open the doors of a greenhouse on a cold and windy day, the trapping of radiation appears to lose much of its efficacy. As a matter of fact I am of the opinion that a greenhouse made of a glass transparent to waves of every possible length would show a temperature nearly, if not quite, as high as that observed in a glass house. The transparent screen allows the solar radiation to warm the ground, and the ground in turn warms the air, but only the limited amount within the enclosure. In the “open,” the ground is continually brought into contact with cold air by convection currents.
To test the matter I constructed two enclosures of dead black cardboard, one covered with a glass plate, the other with a plate of rock-salt of equal thickness. The bulb of a thermometer was inserted in each enclosure and the whole packed in cotton, with the exception of the transparent plates which were exposed. When exposed to sunlight the temperature rose gradually to 65 oC., the enclosure covered with the salt plate keeping a little ahead of the other, owing to the fact that it transmitted the longer waves from the sun, which were stopped by the glass. In order to eliminate this action the sunlight was first passed through a glass plate.
There was now scarcely a difference of one degree between the temperatures of the two enclosures. The maximum temperature reached was about 55 oC. From what we know about the distribution of energy in the spectrum of the radiation emitted by a body at 55 o, it is clear that the rock-salt plate is capable of transmitting practically all of it, while the glass plate stops it entirely. This shows us that the loss of temperature of the ground by radiation is very small in comparison to the loss by convection, in other words that we gain very little from the circumstance that the radiation is trapped.
Is it therefore necessary to pay attention to trapped radiation in deducing the temperature of a planet as affected by its atmosphere? The solar rays penetrate the atmosphere, warm the ground which in turn warms the atmosphere by contact and by convection currents. The heat received is thus stored up in the atmosphere, remaining there on account of the very low radiating power of a gas. It seems to me very doubtful if the atmosphere is warmed to any great extent by absorbing the radiation from the ground, even under the most favourable conditions.
I do not pretend to have gone very deeply into the matter, and publish this note merely to draw attention to the fact that trapped radiation appears to play but a very small part in the actual cases with which we are familiar.
Here would be my interpretation of his experimental setup:
Figure 3. Cross section of the R. W. Wood experiment. The two cardboard boxes are painted black. One is covered with glass, which absorbs and re-emits infrared. The other is covered with rock salt, which is transparent to infrared. They are packed in cotton wool. Thermometers not shown.
Bearing in mind the discussion of the steel greenhouse above, I leave it as an exercise for the interested reader to work out why this is not a valid test of infrared back-radiation on a planetary scale … please consider the presence of the air in the boxes, the efficiency of the convective heat transfer through that air from the box to the cover plates, the vertical temperature profile of that air, the transfer of power from the “surface” to the “shell” through the walls of the box, and the relative temperatures of the air, the box, and the transparent cover.
Seems to me like with a few small changes it could indeed be a valid test, however.
Best regards,
w.
Willis wrote;
“Your argument, as I understand it, is that a cooler object cannot radiate energy to a warmer object.”
NO, I have never said that. Energy flows back and forth between cooler objects and warmer objects all the time.
My argument is that you are mistaking these ENERGY FLOWS (fluxes) with ENERGY SOURCES.
An energy source ADDS energy to a system, an energy flow DIRECTS energy through a system. Think of cars leaving a parking lot, the number of people parking is like an energy source, the traffic light at the exit of the parking lot DIRECTS the flow of the energy (cars). Two totally different mechanisms.
If you go to a “Big City” Airport sometimes you miss the “exit here sign” and you have to loop back through the airport roads one more time to get on your way. You are not an “Extra” airport visitor; you just went through the ramp system twice before leaving. Same as the “greenhouse effect”, no more cars, they just looped through the airport roadways twice……….
Cheers, Kevin.
Greg House wrote (w.r.t. Roy Spencer’s”Yes Virginia there is a greenhouse effect”)
“This is a wonderful idea real experimental testing, Mike, thank you. Has Roy Spencer done it yet?”
As far as I know Dr. Spencer has never implemented this empirical experiment.
Please note that his description uses a “power supply” (a device that converts AC power from the electric company to DC current).
If instead you use an “energy supply” (i.e. a battery with a fixed supply of energy) you get a different result;
With a power supply you can indeed cause two metal slabs in a vacuum to achieve a higher temperature versus a single slab.
HOWEVER with an energy supply you simply cause a higher temperature for a short time and then the energy supply is exhausted and things cool back down.
With an energy supply you get a bit higher temperature for a time, but then things cool off and the average temperature is NEVER higher (although with proper techniques you might just “break even” although doubtful without “”perfect” (i.e. no efficiency loss) batteries).
Power supply, Energy Supply, two different things (apples vs oranges) as anybody that wished for a power supply to light up their flashlight when their energy supply (batteries) went dead should appreciate.
Cheers, Kevin.
Kev-in-Uk says:”I take exception to using the term AGW instead of GHE (greenhouse effect) as that term is a false premise.“.
Point taken. Much more is needed to establish AGW. I think it’s there but negligible, but again it needs proper testing (not easy, because I can’t see the testing being able to be done in a lab).
fhhaynie – If my understanding is correct, you need to use deg K not deg C. Also, the planet temperature you quote is the pre-shell temperature. Post-shell, the planet will be hotter.
Mike,
I used Kelvin in calculating the ratio and then converted to C with 100 degrees as an example. The point is at equilibrium, the radiation from the planet will always be twice as much as the outbound radiation from the shell.
davidmhoffer – It’s not me that has the problem. I’m suggesting a simple test to establish beyond doubt whether this interpretation of the law is correct – after all, science is supposed to be about testing. It is such a basic test, surely it is in a basic textbook somewhere, but no-one seems to have found it yet. If it’s not in the textbooks, then let’s encourage someone to do it.
I have a historical excerpt from the 1980’s, explaining the poorly named “greenhouse effect”.
5 March 1984,
UK: Scientist warn of the Green House Effect; Concern is growing that carbon dioxide, produced by burning fossil fuels, will affect the climate. Carbon dioxide acts like the glass of a green house, trapping the suns heat, and the amount in the atmosphere is growing. The latest pointer to its effects comes from scientists at the University of East Anglia who have found that 1981 and last year were among the warmest on record. A warmer climate could damage agriculture and cause flooding by melting the polar ice caps.
I may be a bit slow so correct me if I’m wrong but the take home message is that the experiment does *not* prove that the greenhouse effect (as described by radiation rather than convection or conduction) doesn’t exist but only shows that the greenhouse effect has virtually nothing to do with what keeps greenhouses warm. Have I got it or do I have to go sing about the rain in Spain while holding marbles in my mouth again?
Mike Jonas says:
February 6, 2013 at 7:22 pm
davidmhoffer – It’s not me that has the problem. I’m suggesting a simple test to establish beyond doubt whether this interpretation of the law is correct – after all, science is supposed to be about testing. It is such a basic test, surely it is in a basic textbook somewhere, but no-one seems to have found it yet. If it’s not in the textbooks, then let’s encourage someone to do it.
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Once again you demonstrate that you have no idea what is in the text books or how to apply it. Shall I add you to the list of people who think nuclear reactors get designed by accident?
Why isn’t the greatest experiment of all, nature, being discussed in all this?
There is no “hot spot” and the stratosphere is not cooling; the climate models are wrong. So why all the kerfuffle with pictures of spheres and such? Is the atmosphere behaving according to GHE theory or not?
Power is not conserved. Energy is.
Go back and learn from someone who knows engineering and physics and then get back to us. Your amateurish analysis is laughable. Like flux is conseved! Figure out how much energy the “blackbody” absorbed and what the energy loss is. Also, steel does not transmit light in, like say, the atmosphere does. Your oversimplification is a tell that you have no clue what you’re talking about.
This is from someone who agrees that man made “global climate change” is trivial at best.
I’ve taught 1st year Mech Eng. students who have a better grasp of heat transfer than you.
Thanks Willis. Agree totally with your article.
I quite like these discussions. They tend to be very amusing. The people who claim the people who get it right are idiots are a hoot. My absolute favorites are the guys who announce they are engineers. Fukushima anyone?
DR,
You are confusing two very different theories.
GHE theory is that the atmosphere makes the Earth warmer than it would be without the atmosphere. While there are arguments about whether this results from radiative effects or some other effect, GHE is easy to prove. The Earth and the Moon recieve about the same amount of incomming radiation per m2 from the sun, but the Earth which has an atmosphere has a higher average surface temp than the Moon.
AGW is a theory that human actions (burning fossil fuels) is increasing the strength of the GHE which will result in a catostrophic increase in the Earth’s Average surface temp.
The “hot spot”, and stratospheric cooling are products of climate models that allege to prove AGW.
AGW is dependent on GHE but GHE by itself does not imply any particular temp trend.
A thought experiment cannot refute a real experiment, ever.
Gino says:
February 6, 2013 at 7:00 pm
Sparks:
Watts do not convert to temperature without the heat capacity of the material. The point being that two items can have the same temperature but vastly different heat quantities.
a 60w bulb and a 100w bulb equals 160w, put the two bulbs together while live, their temperature will never exceed 160w. They do NOT exceed 160w, no mater how much you mess around with ‘energy budgets’ and the material capacity, 160w in 160w out.
this post may be alot of things but a good example of physics it most certainly is not …
at the start of your experiment the steel shell is radiating no energy … (we are assuming the hot planet is the only energy source) therefore when it does begin absorbing energy it will then radiate that energy in all directions when it drops back down to equilibrium … if the planet radiates X amount of energy the shell can only absorb X but it cannot radiate X back at the planet … it can only radiate at best .5 X … and since that radiation is essentially a spherical projection from each molecule in the steel shell we know that quite a bit less than .5 X is radiated back to strike and supposedly be absorbed by the planet …
so no, the planet would never double its radiated output … ever …
2 metal balls … 1 foot apart in a vacuum … one very hot, one not so hot …
according to the 2nd law the hotter ball cannot he heated by the cooler ball yet we know the cooler ball is radiating heat … what happens to that radiated energy when it strikes the hotter ball ? Is it absorbed or reflected ?
Snake Oil Baron wrote;
“I may be a bit slow so correct me if I’m wrong but the take home message is that the experiment does *not* prove that the greenhouse effect (as described by radiation rather than convection or conduction) doesn’t exist but only shows that the greenhouse effect has virtually nothing to do with what keeps greenhouses warm.”
Yes that is about right, the “effect” exists, but it has nothing to do with the average temperature of the Earth, that’s determined primarily by the massive thermal capacity of the oceans.
The ”effect” simply delays the flow of energy from the Sun to the Earth and onwards towards space by a few tens of milliseconds. Since there are about 86 million milliseconds in a day the “effect” is so small we probably could never afford to measure it.
Cheers, Kevin.
MattS says, February 6, 2013 at 7:50 pm: “GHE theory is that the atmosphere makes the Earth warmer than it would be without the atmosphere.”
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No, this is not true, anyway the “greenhouse effect” as presented by the IPCC is about particular “greenhouse gases” making the Earth warmer specifically by by returning back some of the Earth’s outgoing IR radiation, it is not about the whole atmosphere. They do not tell people, however, that this 150 years old hypothesis was debunked 100 years ago by the Wood experiment.
Note that the Wood experiment deals with the underlying mechanism of the “IPCC greenhouse effect”, namely the alleged effect of trapped/back radiation on the temperature of the source.
2nd Law of thermo
Net energy flux between two bodies will flow from hotter to colder.
SB Law
Calculates the energy flux from a body at a given temperature.
For two bodies in proximity to each other, suppose a net flux of C.
Via SB Law, calculate the energy flux from hotter = A
Via SB Law calculate the energy flux from colder = B
A – B = C
Any thermo text, any physics curriculum, and yes, this does explain that A heats B and B heats A. The net flux is C. Proven over and over again by experimentation. Used to design nuclear reactors, kitchen ovens, air conditioners, automobile cooling systems, and more on a daily basis
Or you can subscribe to the theory that these laws of physics are not in the thermo texts, haven’t been proven by experimentation, and that engineers design nuclear reactors, kitchen ovens, air conditioners and automobile cooling systems that functions as designed in advance of being built by a complete fluke.
Here’s another way to think about radiative heat exchange. Suppose we put up a detector, and we detect thermal infrared radiation coming from an object. Doesn’t matter where it’s coming from, but let’s say the temperature of the object is 15°C, so it’s putting out about 400 W/m2 of thermal radiation.
So let’s suppose we expose two objects to that 400 W/m2 of radiation, one of which is at 20°C, and the other of which is at 10°C.
Choices:
1. Both objects absorb absorb the radiation, why wouldn’t they?
2. Somehow the radiation can tell hot from cold, so it bounces off of the hot one.
3. ??
Here’s another example. You are standing next to a block of ice. It is suddenly replaced by a block of metal about 5° below body temperature. Do you feel warmer? Why?
w.
Snake Oil Baron says:
February 6, 2013 at 7:27 pm (Edit)
Got it in one …
w.
Graham Green says:
February 6, 2013 at 6:41 pm
All the units and quantities are irrelevant because the implication here is that a photon leaves the planet surface, interacts with an electron in the shell then somehow one photon is emitted back and another one into space.
Doesn’t seem right.
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Because it isn’t. The theory is that a single photon gets absorbed and a single photon gets emitted in a random direction. For a large number of photons emitted in a random direction, about 1/2 will be generally upward and about 1/2 will be generally downward, but the same number get emitted as absorbed.
davidmhoffer says:
February 6, 2013 at 7:29 pm
…” people who think nuclear reactors get designed by accident?”
__________
Perhaps you mean by trial and error?
Because safety is no accident. *rimshot*
davidmhoffer says, February 6, 2013 at 8:12 pm: “2nd Law of thermo
Net energy flux between two bodies will flow from hotter to colder.”
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No, the known historical statements do not contain the word “net” nor do they imply it, nor is there apparently any real scientific experiment confirming this notion.
I guess, that “net” thing is a trick of “climate scientists” to justify their “greenhouse effect”.
greg house;
Note that the Wood experiment deals with the underlying mechanism of the “IPCC greenhouse effect”, namely the alleged effect of trapped/back radiation on the temperature of the source.
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Is Lewandowsky paying you to blog?
Willis Eschenbach says, February 6, 2013 at 8:17 pm: “Here’s another example. You are standing next to a block of ice. It is suddenly replaced by a block of metal about 5° below body temperature. Do you feel warmer? Why?”
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I guess, every warmist would indeed feel warmer and insist on that even after getting acquainted with the Wood experiment.