The R. W. Wood Experiment

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Pushed by a commenter on another thread, I thought I’d discuss the R. W. Wood experiment, done in 1909. Many people hold that this experiment shows that CO2 absorption and/or back-radiation doesn’t exist, or at least that the poorly named “greenhouse effect” is trivially small. I say it doesn’t show anything at all. Let me show you the manifold problems with the experiment.

To start with, let me give a curious example of the greenhouse effect, that of the Steel Greenhouse. Imagine a planet in the vacuum of space. A residue of nuclear material reacting in the core warms it to where it is radiating at say 235 watts per square metre (W/m2). Figure 1 shows the situation.

steel greenhouse 1Figure 1. Planet in outer space, heated from the interior. Drawing show equilibrium situation

This planet is at equilibrium. The natural reactor in the core of the planet is generating power that at the planet’s surface amounts to 235 W/m2. It is radiating the same amount, so it is neither warming nor cooling.

Now, imagine that without changing anything else, we put a steel shell around the planet. Figure 2 shows that situation, with one side of the shell temporarily removed so we can look inside.

steel greenhouse 2Figure 2. As in Figure 1, but with a solid steel shell surrounding the planet. Near side of the shell temporarily removed to view interior. Vertical distance of the shell from the surface is greatly exaggerated for clarity—in reality the shell and the shell have nearly the same surface area. (A shell 6 miles (10 km) above the Earth has an exterior area only 0.3% larger than the Earth’s surface area.)

[UPDATE: Misunderstandings revealed in the comments demonstrated that I  lacked clarity. To expand, let me note that because the difference in exterior surface area of the shell and the surface is only 0.3%,  I am making the simplifying assumption that they are equal. This clarifies the situation greatly. Yes, it introduces a whopping error of 0.3% in the calculations, which people have jumped all over in the comments as if it meant something … really, folks, 0.3%? If you like, you can do the calculations in total watts, which comes to the same answer. I am also making the simplifying assumption that both the planet and shell are “blackbodies”, meaning they absorb all of the infrared that hits them.]

Now, note what happens when we add a shell around the planet. The shell warms up and it begins to radiate as well … but it radiates the same amount inwards and outwards. The inwards radiation warms the surface of the planet, until it is radiating at 470 W/m2. At that point the system is back in equilibrium. The planet is receiving 235 W/m2 from the interior, plus 235 W/m2 from the shell, and it is radiating the total amount, 470 W/m2. The shell is receiving 470 W/m2 from the planet, and it is radiating the same amount, half inwards back to the planet and half outwards to outer space. Note also that despite the fact that the planetary surface ends up much warmer (radiating 470 W/m2), energy is conserved. The same 235 W/m2 of power is emitted to space as in Figure 1.

And that is all that there is to the poorly named greenhouse effect. It does not require CO2 or an atmosphere, it can be built out of steel. It depends entirely on the fact that a shell has two sides and a solid body only has one side.

Now, this magical system works because there is a vacuum between the planet and the shell. As a result, the planet and the shell can take up very different temperatures. If they could not do so, if for example the shell were held up by huge thick pillars that efficiently conducted the heat from the surface to the shell, then the two would always be at the same temperature, and that temperature would be such that the system radiated at 235 W/m2. There would be no differential heating of the surface, and there would be no greenhouse effect.

Another way to lower the efficiency of the system is to introduce an atmosphere. Each watt of power lost by atmospheric convection of heat from the surface to the shell reduces the radiation temperature of the surface by the same amount. If the atmosphere can conduct the surface temperature effectively enough to the shell, the surface ends up only slightly warmer than the shell.

Let me summarize. In order for the greenhouse effect to function, the shell has to be thermally isolated from the surface so that the temperatures of the two can differ substantially. If the atmosphere or other means efficiently transfers surface heat to the shell there will be very little difference in temperature between the two.

Now, remember that I started out to discuss the R. W. Wood experiment. Here is the report of that experiment, from the author. I have highlighted the experimental setup.

Note on the Theory of the Greenhouse

By Professor R. W. Wood (Communicated by the Author)

THERE appears to be a widespread belief that the comparatively high temperature produced within a closed space covered with glass, and exposed to solar radiation, results from a transformation of wave-length, that is, that the heat waves from the sun, which are able to penetrate the glass, fall upon the walls of the enclosure and raise its temperature: the heat energy is re-emitted by the walls in the form of much longer waves, which are unable to penetrate the glass, the greenhouse acting as a radiation trap.

I have always felt some doubt as to whether this action played any very large part in the elevation of temperature. It appeared much more probable that the part played by the glass was the prevention of the escape of the warm air heated by the ground within the enclosure. If we open the doors of a greenhouse on a cold and windy day, the trapping of radiation appears to lose much of its efficacy. As a matter of fact I am of the opinion that a greenhouse made of a glass transparent to waves of every possible length would show a temperature nearly, if not quite, as high as that observed in a glass house. The transparent screen allows the solar radiation to warm the ground, and the ground in turn warms the air, but only the limited amount within the enclosure. In the “open,” the ground is continually brought into contact with cold air by convection currents.

To test the matter I constructed two enclosures of dead black cardboard, one covered with a glass plate, the other with a plate of rock-salt of equal thickness. The bulb of a thermometer was inserted in each enclosure and the whole packed in cotton, with the exception of the transparent plates which were exposed. When exposed to sunlight the temperature rose gradually to 65 oC., the enclosure covered with the salt plate keeping a little ahead of the other, owing to the fact that it transmitted the longer waves from the sun, which were stopped by the glass. In order to eliminate this action the sunlight was first passed through a glass plate.

There was now scarcely a difference of one degree between the temperatures of the two enclosures. The maximum temperature reached was about 55 oC. From what we know about the distribution of energy in the spectrum of the radiation emitted by a body at 55 o, it is clear that the rock-salt plate is capable of transmitting practically all of it, while the glass plate stops it entirely. This shows us that the loss of temperature of the ground by radiation is very small in comparison to the loss by convection, in other words that we gain very little from the circumstance that the radiation is trapped.

Is it therefore necessary to pay attention to trapped radiation in deducing the temperature of a planet as affected by its atmosphere? The solar rays penetrate the atmosphere, warm the ground which in turn warms the atmosphere by contact and by convection currents. The heat received is thus stored up in the atmosphere, remaining there on account of the very low radiating power of a gas. It seems to me very doubtful if the atmosphere is warmed to any great extent by absorbing the radiation from the ground, even under the most favourable conditions.

I do not pretend to have gone very deeply into the matter, and publish this note merely to draw attention to the fact that trapped radiation appears to play but a very small part in the actual cases with which we are familiar.

Here would be my interpretation of his experimental setup:

r w wood experiment 2Figure 3. Cross section of the R. W. Wood experiment. The two cardboard boxes are painted black. One is covered with glass, which absorbs and re-emits infrared. The other is covered with rock salt, which is transparent to infrared. They are packed in cotton wool. Thermometers not shown.

Bearing in mind the discussion of the steel greenhouse above, I leave it as an exercise for the interested reader to work out why this is not a valid test of infrared back-radiation on a planetary scale … please consider the presence of the air in the boxes, the efficiency of the convective heat transfer through that air from the box to the cover plates, the vertical temperature profile of that air, the transfer of power from the “surface” to the “shell” through the walls of the box, and the relative temperatures of the air, the box, and the transparent cover.

Seems to me like with a few small changes it could indeed be a valid test, however.

Best regards,

w.

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KevinM
February 6, 2013 2:40 pm

Roger Clague says
“Watts are a unit of POWER, that is joules/ second.
ENERGY is measured in joules. There is no law of conservation of power.”
No, but thermal equilibrium is the condition described by zero net energy trasfer, or net zero joules per second, right? Its not a law, its a condition.
Please remove the all caps. Do you talk to people that way in person?

davidmhoffer
February 6, 2013 2:40 pm

All these analogies are amusing but ignore Second Law.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You can’t pick and choose which laws of physics to use and when. They all exist at the same time. If the 2nd Law operates as you suggest, then it falsifies SB Law. You can have both, or neither, but you can’t have one and not the other.

Greg House
February 6, 2013 2:41 pm

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach: “Pushed by a commenter on another thread, I thought I’d discuss the R. W. Wood experiment, done in 1909. Many people hold that this experiment shows that CO2 absorption and/or back-radiation doesn’t exist, or at least that the poorly named “greenhouse effect” is trivially small.”
==============================================================
I guess I am the “commenter on another thread”. I do not “hold that this experiment shows that CO2 absorption and/or back-radiation doesn’t exist”. Nor have I ever heard anyone claiming that. Nor did professor Wood hold that.
The Wood experiment demonstrates that “trapped/back radiation” has zero or negligible effect on the temperature of the source.
And this demonstrates that the underlying mechanism of the “greenhouse effect” as presented by the IPCC (http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/faq-1-3.html) does not work at all or is negligible.

bwdave
February 6, 2013 2:41 pm

With the same internal heat source, the outgoing W/m^2 simply decrease with the increased surface area, but the total heat escaping will remain the same as that supplied by the internal source. Everything else is irrelevant garbage.

February 6, 2013 2:42 pm

I’ve started using a IR non-contact thermometer to measure the temp of the sky on clear days, and so far on a 35F day, and a 28F day, it’s been lower than the temp the thermometer will read -40F. On a ~50F day, it read ~-35F.
My thermometer is measuring “back radiation”. Back radiation does add energy to anything it shines on, but the rate of transfer is very low, and while my 50F black driveway is getting radiated on, being at least 90F warmer, the rate of energy it’s radiating into space is much much higher than the other way around.
I plan to start logging the sky’s temp and logging it and air temp and humidity. I just have to wait for clear days, which I don’t get very often in NE Ohio.
From my work looking at the surface temperature record and night time cooling, I expect to see that humidity controls surface temps.

lou
February 6, 2013 2:45 pm

If the outer shell is radiating at 2x the flux of the inner core its temperature would have to be much higher than the inner core. How is that possible?

February 6, 2013 2:49 pm

MiCro says:
February 6, 2013 at 2:42 pm

my 50F back driveway

Is suppose to be “my 50F black driveway”
[Fixed. -w.]

Trond A
February 6, 2013 2:51 pm

Hi Willis!
In your own example with the metal sphere, or the shell, the back radiation to the planet will be as you describe. If you add a second shell the feedback process will start again and the outer shell will be the one radiating 235 W/m^2 (apart from differences in the areas, but don’t take that into consideration for practical means), and this will add another 235 W inwards which the planet will absorb and reradiate together with the original 235 and the first added 235, now resulting in 705 W/m^2 and a raised temperature at the surface as well. For each added shell there will be an additional 235 W/m^2 back to the planets surface. If the starting radiation is E, the full radiation from the surface with n shells will be E + n*E.
This is the same model as can be found in textbooks of climate physics, but now the metal shells are layers of air and the absorption materials are the greenhouse gases. The model looks convincing. But is it a reality? The energy budgets says that a little less than half of the incoming radiation reaches the surface of the earth as a mean value, and even less is pure reradiated energy that can start the process mentioned above. As an average value about 50-60 W can be an estimate for incoming/outcoming starting radiation. If I chose 65 W as an example I will at least not exaggerate in my example ahead. The mean surface temperature of the earth is said to be 15 C based upon measurements. And based upon this again, the mean radiation from the surface is said to be 390 w/m^2. So far so good. If the mean starting value is 65 W, the starting energy is multiplied by six by the greenhouse effect, 390/65 = 6. This would give an atmosphere of five completely absorbing/reradiating layers in the perspective of overall energy. But if this is good science for an average view, it also have to hold for a more special situation like a tropical desert with a zenith sun from a clear sky with very little water vapor. 1367 W/m^2 is coming in. Without an atmosphere it will give 120 C at the surface if it all is absorbed and reradiated, which is the common view. Well, some of it will be absorbed by the atmosphere. How much? What about 20%, that will leave us with about 1094 W/m^2 and a temperature of about 100 C according to Stephan-Boltzmans equation. That’s far beyond reality and still we haven’t taking the greenhouse effect into consideration which should give (1094 W/m^2)*6 = 6562 W/m^2 corresponding to a temperature of about 310 C, which is of course completely out of the question as the reality is about 55-60 C. And even if we take only half of the incoming radiation as start for the greenhouse effect, it will be far too much.
Will much more of the energy be transferred as convection? Maybe, but this can be tested precisely with the example of the Wood experiment, the one with the rock-salt plate. Because the rock-salt plate is transparent to both short and long wave radiation, both the start value radiation of 65 W in my example, and the added long wave back radiation up to 390 W will enter this greenhouse box and none of the energy will slip away due to convection because no convection is allowed. This little box should experience a full greenhouse effect and reach a temperature of more than 300 C. Well, as Wood showed, it didn’t. None greenhouse effect of that caliber. And even in the desert the atmosphere has a cooling effect, and for the most equals out the excessive conditions. Both ways. There is probably a certain greenhouse effect contributing to the convection, and greenhouse gases most probably give the atmosphere a certain kind of heat capacity that speeds up the energy flow and equals out the temperature, but a heavy back radiation? Hmm..

Kev-in-Uk
February 6, 2013 2:52 pm

The basic physics is of course correct – but this hypothetical situation is not directly applicable to a planet warmed from an external source. For a start, the external radiation is both reflected and absorbed by the shell, and in a varying manner and in the case of a poorly conductive/convective and ‘reactive’ (or chaotic, if you prefer) atmosphere – the GHG properties are not constant. Once you have clouds, heat retaining liquid, surface solids, water vapour, aerosols, a ‘living’ Biosphere, etc, etc, etc – the situation is simply far too complicated to be realistically represented. Thus, when you realise just how complicated that it actually becomes in real life (as per our Earth) – it makes it even more highly suspicious to point to a SINGLE trace gas as a primary driver of GHG effect changes!
Further, when you then consider the actual carbon cycle and the natural CO2 present within the biosphere as a whole, and the potential natural variation of the ‘position/placement’ of CO2 within that biosphere (sinks and emitters!) – that adds even further complication.
Now, if someone wants to unravel that semi-chaotic non-linear mess and offer proof that CO2 based AGW is the proven real culprit, I’d be glad to hear it – as would millions of others!
Just sayin………..

lou
February 6, 2013 2:54 pm

What I meant was the outer shell is radiating over 2x the area of the inner shell at the same power so its temperature must be higher…

Editor
February 6, 2013 2:57 pm

Vacuum between shell and planet = planet gets a lot hotter.
Perfect conduction between shell and planet = planet doesn’t get any hotter.
Imperfect conduction between shell and planet = AGW.
As KevinM has said above, AGW is real. The main argument is about how large or small the effect is.

Greg House
February 6, 2013 2:58 pm

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach: ” let me give a curious example of the greenhouse effect, that of the Steel Greenhouse. Imagine a planet in the vacuum of space. A residue of nuclear material reacting in the core warms it to where it is radiating at say 235 watts per square metre (W/m2). … Now, note what happens when we add a shell around the planet. The shell warms up and it begins to radiate as well … but it radiates the same amount inwards and outwards. The inwards radiation warms the surface of the planet, …”
=============================================================
“Imagine”, I see.
I guess, it has never been proven experimentally that A warms B and then B warms A back, right? OK, this is a product of imagination, a fiction, and everyone has right to right a science-fictional story, no problem with that. But the readers need to be told clearly that this story is fictional, just to avoid confusion.

February 6, 2013 2:59 pm

“The Wood experiment demonstrates that “trapped/back radiation” has zero or negligible effect on the temperature of the source.”
Unfortunately it doesnt test how the “greenhouse effect actually works and can never test that.”
The green house effect operates by raising the ERL. A raised ERL means a earth that radiates from a higher colder region. That means a slower rate of energy release to space and the surface cools less rapidly in response. back radiation is an EFFECT of the greenhouse effect not a cause. The theory is not that back radiation warms the source. It does not. The rate at which the source cools is slowed.
back radiation from the silver lining of a thermos does not warm the coffee. It slows the rate at whch the coffee cools and keeps it warmer than it would be otherwise. If that radiation shield is “leaky” the coffee cools more rapidily.
Simple terms: Woods doesnt test the greenhouse hypothesis.
That hypothesis is.
1. Adding C02 RAISES the level of the ERL. woods experiment and any closed container experiment cannot test this.
2. Raising The ERL cause the source to cool less rapidly. The surface is not warmed by back radiation which is better understood as an effect of GHGs rather than the cause of warming.
back radiation in a thermos doesnt raise the temperature of the coffee, it slows the rate of energy loss.
Woods tested some other theory, some strawman version.

Trond A
February 6, 2013 3:01 pm

Correction: Because the rock-salt plate is transparent to both short and long wave radiation, both the start value radiation of 65 W in my example, and the added long wave back radiation up to 390 W will enter this greenhouse box and none of the energy will slip away due to convection because no convection is allowed.
Here it should be not 65 W but 1094 W, and instead of 390 W there should be 6562 W according to the example of the tropical desert. Sorry.

TomR,Worc,MA
February 6, 2013 3:02 pm

I think I am headed back to “Ilikebacon.com”, this thread makes my eyes bleed.
TR

davidmhoffer
February 6, 2013 3:03 pm

The Wood experiment demonstrates that “trapped/back radiation” has zero or negligible effect on the temperature of the source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, the joules of energy exist, they just don’t do anything. Let’s just change the definition of joule to suit our belief system and prove it using an apparatus that can’t possibly measure with enough accuracy to support such a conclusion. And let’s further propose that conclusion based on an experiment in 1906 in opposition to the findings of Wien, Planck, Einstein, Bohr, and Milliken’s Nobel prizes in 1911, 1918, 1921, 1922 and 1923 respectively.

ckb
Editor
February 6, 2013 3:03 pm

I agree with mkelly about figure 2 Willis. I can see what you were trying to say there but the arrows and amounts are confusing as presented.
I think it could be reworked to just key on what you were trying to say. Adding the shell makes the planet warmer without affecting the enery balance. At the steady state, planet produces 235, shell emits 235, but the produced 235 bounces around between the shell and the planet effectively warming it.
Still thinking about the Wood experiment.

Allen B. Eltor
February 6, 2013 3:09 pm

Don K says:
February 6, 2013 at 1:50 pm
I’m probably wrong, but wouldn’t In order to eliminate this action the sunlight was first passed through a glass plate. imply a second glass plate above both the glass and rock salt plates in order to condition in incoming spectrum to be the same for both boxes?
Please pardon me if that’s silly or stupid. I’m too old and fuzzy minded to work through stuff like this quickly. I think I may have been smarter/quicker about 5 decades ago. Or at least I thought I was smarter/quicker.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Woods set out to debunk the claim that specific gases, were slowing down the escape of a class of radiation. That radiation class was infrared light.
Woods let infrared in one box,
and stopped infrared from getting in another:
proving it wasn't the amount of infrared-class light getting in, OR out,
that assigned temperature in any measureable way in atmospheric air.
Claims of not being able to "see the point" are of those who don't WANT to see the point.
They have what's called a 'belief' system.
They BELIEVE in the effect, no matter how many experiments show them, it's erroneous fantasy.
Woods proved the claim of infrared-resonant gases, being in a fundamental way responsible for temperature assignment in atmospheric gas mixture, is utter falsehood.
When two boxes were put out in sun, and identical gases inside: atmospheric mix wherever he was –
the box which didn't let infrared light in, warmed identically in time,
with the box that let it in.
If the atmospheric gas mix was somehow holding infrared heat, creating detectable temperature readings, the box that let the infrared light in,
*would have warmed up faster. *
It didn't.
The one that had the infrared in, blocked,
*would have had to have waited for portions of the visible light coming in, to convert to heat, before temperature climb appoximated the other's.*
Anyone who says "they can't see what that proved," is simply trying to hang on to their self-prescribed "dignity"
and popularity.
Because we've got enough instruments from optical telescopes to infrared telescopes to
check on the stories about the magic gas.
And it's a bullshoot story.
Woods knew it,
anyone who sees Woods' experiment, who's honest, knows it,
and the only people who even still cling to it are those who staked their reputations as public figures on it's being real.
Nobody believes in that crap except what are called 'true believers.'

Editor
February 6, 2013 3:32 pm

Greg House – “I guess, it has never been proven experimentally that A warms B and then B warms A back, right? OK, this is a product of imagination, a fiction, and everyone has right to right a science-fictional story, no problem with that. But the readers need to be told clearly that this story is fictional, just to avoid confusion.“.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2010/07/yes-virginia-cooler-objects-can-make-warmer-objects-even-warmer-still/
The advantage of Roy Spencer’s example is that it can be set up and tested in a lab.
To my mind, it would be a very good idea for someone to actually do the experiment, properly, and (if Roy Spencer is correct) lay to rest the argument that AGW violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Kev-in-Uk
February 6, 2013 3:33 pm

Mike Jonas says:
February 6, 2013 at 2:57 pm
I don’t disagree in principle but as I observed earlier, in real life, we have a planet warmed from external radiation (with all the other associated effects) and also I take exception to using the term AGW instead of GHE (greenhouse effect) as that term is a false premise.

February 6, 2013 3:36 pm

The top pain of glass was to make sure the IR that was reaching the boxes were equal in wavelength. Then the transfer was measured as longer wavelengths deduced by the temperature reading. Is this right?