The R. W. Wood Experiment

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Pushed by a commenter on another thread, I thought I’d discuss the R. W. Wood experiment, done in 1909. Many people hold that this experiment shows that CO2 absorption and/or back-radiation doesn’t exist, or at least that the poorly named “greenhouse effect” is trivially small. I say it doesn’t show anything at all. Let me show you the manifold problems with the experiment.

To start with, let me give a curious example of the greenhouse effect, that of the Steel Greenhouse. Imagine a planet in the vacuum of space. A residue of nuclear material reacting in the core warms it to where it is radiating at say 235 watts per square metre (W/m2). Figure 1 shows the situation.

steel greenhouse 1Figure 1. Planet in outer space, heated from the interior. Drawing show equilibrium situation

This planet is at equilibrium. The natural reactor in the core of the planet is generating power that at the planet’s surface amounts to 235 W/m2. It is radiating the same amount, so it is neither warming nor cooling.

Now, imagine that without changing anything else, we put a steel shell around the planet. Figure 2 shows that situation, with one side of the shell temporarily removed so we can look inside.

steel greenhouse 2Figure 2. As in Figure 1, but with a solid steel shell surrounding the planet. Near side of the shell temporarily removed to view interior. Vertical distance of the shell from the surface is greatly exaggerated for clarity—in reality the shell and the shell have nearly the same surface area. (A shell 6 miles (10 km) above the Earth has an exterior area only 0.3% larger than the Earth’s surface area.)

[UPDATE: Misunderstandings revealed in the comments demonstrated that I  lacked clarity. To expand, let me note that because the difference in exterior surface area of the shell and the surface is only 0.3%,  I am making the simplifying assumption that they are equal. This clarifies the situation greatly. Yes, it introduces a whopping error of 0.3% in the calculations, which people have jumped all over in the comments as if it meant something … really, folks, 0.3%? If you like, you can do the calculations in total watts, which comes to the same answer. I am also making the simplifying assumption that both the planet and shell are “blackbodies”, meaning they absorb all of the infrared that hits them.]

Now, note what happens when we add a shell around the planet. The shell warms up and it begins to radiate as well … but it radiates the same amount inwards and outwards. The inwards radiation warms the surface of the planet, until it is radiating at 470 W/m2. At that point the system is back in equilibrium. The planet is receiving 235 W/m2 from the interior, plus 235 W/m2 from the shell, and it is radiating the total amount, 470 W/m2. The shell is receiving 470 W/m2 from the planet, and it is radiating the same amount, half inwards back to the planet and half outwards to outer space. Note also that despite the fact that the planetary surface ends up much warmer (radiating 470 W/m2), energy is conserved. The same 235 W/m2 of power is emitted to space as in Figure 1.

And that is all that there is to the poorly named greenhouse effect. It does not require CO2 or an atmosphere, it can be built out of steel. It depends entirely on the fact that a shell has two sides and a solid body only has one side.

Now, this magical system works because there is a vacuum between the planet and the shell. As a result, the planet and the shell can take up very different temperatures. If they could not do so, if for example the shell were held up by huge thick pillars that efficiently conducted the heat from the surface to the shell, then the two would always be at the same temperature, and that temperature would be such that the system radiated at 235 W/m2. There would be no differential heating of the surface, and there would be no greenhouse effect.

Another way to lower the efficiency of the system is to introduce an atmosphere. Each watt of power lost by atmospheric convection of heat from the surface to the shell reduces the radiation temperature of the surface by the same amount. If the atmosphere can conduct the surface temperature effectively enough to the shell, the surface ends up only slightly warmer than the shell.

Let me summarize. In order for the greenhouse effect to function, the shell has to be thermally isolated from the surface so that the temperatures of the two can differ substantially. If the atmosphere or other means efficiently transfers surface heat to the shell there will be very little difference in temperature between the two.

Now, remember that I started out to discuss the R. W. Wood experiment. Here is the report of that experiment, from the author. I have highlighted the experimental setup.

Note on the Theory of the Greenhouse

By Professor R. W. Wood (Communicated by the Author)

THERE appears to be a widespread belief that the comparatively high temperature produced within a closed space covered with glass, and exposed to solar radiation, results from a transformation of wave-length, that is, that the heat waves from the sun, which are able to penetrate the glass, fall upon the walls of the enclosure and raise its temperature: the heat energy is re-emitted by the walls in the form of much longer waves, which are unable to penetrate the glass, the greenhouse acting as a radiation trap.

I have always felt some doubt as to whether this action played any very large part in the elevation of temperature. It appeared much more probable that the part played by the glass was the prevention of the escape of the warm air heated by the ground within the enclosure. If we open the doors of a greenhouse on a cold and windy day, the trapping of radiation appears to lose much of its efficacy. As a matter of fact I am of the opinion that a greenhouse made of a glass transparent to waves of every possible length would show a temperature nearly, if not quite, as high as that observed in a glass house. The transparent screen allows the solar radiation to warm the ground, and the ground in turn warms the air, but only the limited amount within the enclosure. In the “open,” the ground is continually brought into contact with cold air by convection currents.

To test the matter I constructed two enclosures of dead black cardboard, one covered with a glass plate, the other with a plate of rock-salt of equal thickness. The bulb of a thermometer was inserted in each enclosure and the whole packed in cotton, with the exception of the transparent plates which were exposed. When exposed to sunlight the temperature rose gradually to 65 oC., the enclosure covered with the salt plate keeping a little ahead of the other, owing to the fact that it transmitted the longer waves from the sun, which were stopped by the glass. In order to eliminate this action the sunlight was first passed through a glass plate.

There was now scarcely a difference of one degree between the temperatures of the two enclosures. The maximum temperature reached was about 55 oC. From what we know about the distribution of energy in the spectrum of the radiation emitted by a body at 55 o, it is clear that the rock-salt plate is capable of transmitting practically all of it, while the glass plate stops it entirely. This shows us that the loss of temperature of the ground by radiation is very small in comparison to the loss by convection, in other words that we gain very little from the circumstance that the radiation is trapped.

Is it therefore necessary to pay attention to trapped radiation in deducing the temperature of a planet as affected by its atmosphere? The solar rays penetrate the atmosphere, warm the ground which in turn warms the atmosphere by contact and by convection currents. The heat received is thus stored up in the atmosphere, remaining there on account of the very low radiating power of a gas. It seems to me very doubtful if the atmosphere is warmed to any great extent by absorbing the radiation from the ground, even under the most favourable conditions.

I do not pretend to have gone very deeply into the matter, and publish this note merely to draw attention to the fact that trapped radiation appears to play but a very small part in the actual cases with which we are familiar.

Here would be my interpretation of his experimental setup:

r w wood experiment 2Figure 3. Cross section of the R. W. Wood experiment. The two cardboard boxes are painted black. One is covered with glass, which absorbs and re-emits infrared. The other is covered with rock salt, which is transparent to infrared. They are packed in cotton wool. Thermometers not shown.

Bearing in mind the discussion of the steel greenhouse above, I leave it as an exercise for the interested reader to work out why this is not a valid test of infrared back-radiation on a planetary scale … please consider the presence of the air in the boxes, the efficiency of the convective heat transfer through that air from the box to the cover plates, the vertical temperature profile of that air, the transfer of power from the “surface” to the “shell” through the walls of the box, and the relative temperatures of the air, the box, and the transparent cover.

Seems to me like with a few small changes it could indeed be a valid test, however.

Best regards,

w.

0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

735 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Bart
February 16, 2013 3:07 pm

Will says:
February 16, 2013 at 12:23 pm
I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you. Read it again. Then, again. And, again. Until it gets through.
Greg House says:
February 16, 2013 at 1:39 pm
“The MLI article from Misleadingpedia simply repeats the same unproven claim.”
I see. So, all those satellites and space shuttles and space stations… all that stuff is bunk. Are you one of those guys who think pro wrestling is real, but the Moon landings were fake?
Will says:
February 16, 2013 at 2:02 pm
“There is NOTHING impeding the flow of energy in this “thought experiment” or in the so called “greenhouse effect”.”
Ooo-KAY. So, materials do not absorb or re-emit electromagnetic energy. Glad you cleared that up for us. Looks like the whole of 20th century science is a scam.
Guys, you are barking up the wrong tree. As I showed using math above, the “greenhouse effect” is real. There is no question that the Earth’s surface is warmer with its blanket of IR absorbing gases than it would be without. But, that does not mean that an incremental increase in those gases necessarily results in an additional rise in temperature.
If you want to have any hope of influencing anyone other than nitwits, you will adopt that position as your own. If you don’t, if you cling to this malignant fantasy that all of science is a great big scam, then you might as well move out to Montana and live in a shack, because none of the modern technologies actually work, and you are no better off for them. We are all blinded to the con by, I dunno… flouride in the water. Or, something. But, at any rate, my continued participation in this debate, if you can call it that, is clearly benefiting nobody. Sayonara.

February 16, 2013 3:16 pm

Gary Hladik says:
February 16, 2013 at 2:40 pm
There is only one reason why people use “thought experiments” in place of real experiments. Go figure as they say.
To increase the temperature of a body requires radiation of a higher flux density than that which it is already emitting, as is clear from my real ice-cube example you referred to.

February 16, 2013 3:35 pm

Gary Hladik says:
February 16, 2013 at 2:40 pm
“If the experiment is done for real, then with the second body present, do you predict the electrically heated body will be
a) warmer
b) cooler
c) the same temp
as it is with the second body absent?”

If the energy input is fixed (the energy sink, space, never varies) but mass is increased, obviously temperature will fall. This is the converse to the principle behind the filament of a lightbulb is it not?

Greg House
February 16, 2013 3:42 pm

Bart says, February 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm: “Greg House says: February 16, 2013 at 1:39 pm “The MLI article from Misleadingpedia simply repeats the same unproven claim.”
I see. So, all those satellites and space shuttles and space stations… all that stuff is bunk.”

========================================================
“Those satellites and space shuttles and space stations… all that stuff” is just fine. But the MLI article from Misleadingpedia is obviously a peace of crap. I hope you get the point now.

February 16, 2013 3:51 pm

Bart says:
February 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm
“So, materials do not absorb or re-emit electromagnetic energy. Glad you cleared that up for us.”
Yes they do, they do both in equal measure as per Kirchhoff and it is called energy flow. I hope clears up your confusion Bart.
“I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you. Read it again. Then, again. And, again. Until it gets through.”
Continuous repetition of fallacious argument cannot make it true.
“There is no question that the Earth’s surface is warmer with its blanket of IR absorbing gases than it would be without.”
The atmosphere “blanket” also has cooling effect. Care to discuss that at all Bart?
The so called “greenhouse effect” is provably a fallacy of logic.

February 16, 2013 4:10 pm

Bart says:
February 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm
” As I showed using math above, the “greenhouse effect” is real.”
A Nobel prize for Bart! He has done what no man has ever been able to do, he has achieved the impossible and proven that the “greenhouse effect” is “real”.
Delusional!

Gary Hladik
February 16, 2013 4:16 pm

Will says (February 16, 2013 at 3:16 pm): “There is only one reason why people use “thought experiments” in place of real experiments. Go figure as they say.”
It’s really too bad that you can’t appreciate the delicious irony of that paragraph, Will. Keep reading.
“To increase the temperature of a body requires radiation of a higher flux density than that which it is already emitting, as is clear from my real ice-cube example you referred to.”
Um, your ice cube “experiment” isn’t real. It’s just another thought experiment until you can point to an actual experiment with actual setup, actual measurements, etc. See the irony now?
I see also that you’re perfectly happy to comment on Willis’s thought experiment and point out at length why it won’t work. Yet you shy away from the more down-to-earth (and potentially performable) thought experiment of Roy Spencer. WUWT?
You’re not alone, either. Five times in this thread I’ve asked commenters to predict the result of this experiment done for real, and nobody has. It’s as if they’re afraid, or something. 🙂
BTW, one final comment: Dr. Spencer’s thought experiment uses two plates, presumably of metal, which are just the solid or “frozen” phase of something that’s liquid or even vapor at higher temperatures. So you’ll present a thought experiment using frozen water, but won’t go near one using, say, frozen aluminum? Again, WUWT?

Greg House
February 16, 2013 4:32 pm

MiCro says, February 16, 2013 at 4:00 pm : “Ok Will,
A word problem, with you and your families life at stake. […] What do you do and why? Remember everyone’s life is at stake.

=======================================================
I suggest Will call 911.

Greg House
February 16, 2013 4:40 pm

Gary Hladik says, February 16, 2013 at 4:16 pm: “Um, your ice cube “experiment” isn’t real. It’s just another thought experiment until you can point to an actual experiment with actual setup, actual measurements, etc.”
==============================================================
Gary, I am overwhelmed with all sorts of positive emotions now that you publicly recognized the value of real experiments, thank you.

Gary Hladik
February 16, 2013 4:46 pm

MiCro says (February 16, 2013 at 4:00 pm): “A word problem, with you and your families life at stake.”
Well, I’d shoot the wife and kids, take their power packs, and use them to power my own suit, because I came to the moon to get away from them, dammit!
Sorry, sorry, everyone. Anthony still hasn’t explained the temp differences between the CRN and COOP networks, so I’m getting cranky. Sorry.

Greg House
February 16, 2013 4:47 pm

Gary Hladik says, February 16, 2013 at 4:16 pm : “Yet you shy away from the more down-to-earth (and potentially performable) thought experiment of Roy Spencer. WUWT?”
=======================================================
Gary, I suggest we wait till Roy Spencer has actually performed his potentially performable “thought experiment”, OK?

Gary Hladik
February 16, 2013 6:34 pm

Greg House says (February 16, 2013 at 4:47 pm): ‘Gary, I suggest we wait till Roy Spencer has actually performed his potentially performable “thought experiment”, OK?’
Greg, it’s not a prediction unless it’s recorded before the experiment is performed.
And as I’ve explained before, I don’t expect Dr. Spencer to do the experiment, because he has nothing to gain. Disciples of the imaginary version of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (i2LT), on the other hand, have everything to gain by doing the experiment, since it would supposedly overturn mainstream physics and earn them both fame and fortune. In fact, I suspect one (or more) might be hard at work right now, which is why I want to get people’s predictions in early.

Bart
February 16, 2013 6:43 pm

Greg House says:
February 16, 2013 at 3:42 pm
“I hope you get the point now.”
Do I ever.
Will says:
February 16, 2013 at 3:51 pm
“Continuous repetition of fallacious argument cannot make it true.”
Words of wisdom. If only you took them to heart.
“The atmosphere “blanket” also has cooling effect. Care to discuss that at all Bart?”
Sure. The atmospheric blanket cools the atmosphere as soon as a point is reached at which it radiates enough to balance all the equations. At that point, if the temperatures temporarily go higher, they will radiate away the heat to reestablish equilibrium. However, if temperatures temporarily go lower, they will prevent the energy from flowing out, until the equilibrium is reestablished. In this way, they act as a governor to maintain a particular surface temperature.
The question is, what happens if you make the “blanket” thicker? As I showed, it does not necessarily lead to higher surface temperature. But, whether or no, the GHE does exist. Without atmospheric gasses, the Earth would, on average, be colder than with them. Do you understand why the question of whether the GHE exists is uncoupled from the question of whether the relationship is linear or monotonic?

Bart
February 16, 2013 6:46 pm

Will says:
February 16, 2013 at 4:10 pm
“A Nobel prize for Bart!”
Sadly, I thought I had a real winner when I showed that V = IR. Unfortunately, they had some quibbles about it having “been done before.” My response of “not by me!” didn’t seem to impress them.

Gary Hladik
February 16, 2013 8:38 pm

Greg House says (February 16, 2013 at 4:40 pm): “Gary, I am overwhelmed with all sorts of positive emotions now that you publicly recognized the value of real experiments, thank you.”
Thanks, Greg, but you’re late to the party. I’ve linked to or discussed at least two real experiments in this thread alone. I respect real experiments so much, in fact, that I’ve repeatedly urged fringe physicists to perform a relatively simple real experiment (“Yes, Virginia”, or equivalent) that should (according to fringe physics) topple mainstream physics and free the world from the threat of Thermageddon. So far no takers, which I find baffling, given their supposed preference for “real” experimentation. I guess they like their imaginary version of the R W Wood experiment too much to try anything else. 🙂
So how’s your “Yes, Virginia” experiment coming, Greg? Got the vacuum chamber set up yet? Can you share any photos with us? Care to predict the result?

Reply to  Gary Hladik
February 16, 2013 10:01 pm

Gary,
All Greg needs to do is buy a ir thermometer measure the temp of the sky and explain it.
Will,
Did you make the right choice and save your family? All you had to do is use the heat of your ice cubes. But you only had an hour or so to figure it out, till the empty shelter dropped to freezing, then you had to get in the center of all of that ice.
Was it a teary good bye, or are you chilling out on ice waiting for your rescuers to show up?

Greg House
February 16, 2013 9:45 pm

Gary Hladik says, February 16, 2013 at 8:38 pm: “So how’s your “Yes, Virginia” experiment coming, Greg? Got the vacuum chamber set up yet? Can you share any photos with us? Care to predict the result?”
========================================================
My “Yes, Virginia”? (shock) I have nothing to do with that fictional story.
In science a fiction remains a fiction until proven real. I understand that you possibly prefer “a fiction should be considered real until proven to be a fiction”, it’s OK, no problem, but it is not science.

Shawnhet
February 16, 2013 9:53 pm

Greg House says:
February 16, 2013 at 1:23 pm
“Shawnhet says, February 16, 2013 at 3:02 am: “They don’t say so explicitly but it is in there.”
=======================================================
It is not there.
To me, not to tell people in the article “Multi-layer insulation” that multi-layer insulation is designed to prevent the satellite from overheating because of solar radiation is a clear indication of the misleading nature of the article. Given the “explanation” in the article I can only suspect warmists.”
No need to invoke a bizarre conspiracy theory just because they don’t phrase things exactly as you would like. If you look at the source pages from the wiki page you find this:
“Passive thermal control is obtained with multi-layer insulation, MLI, which is often the most visible part of a spacecraft. White or gold-colored thermal blankets reflect infrared, IR, helping to protect the spacecraft from excess solar heating. Gold is a very efficient IR reflector, and is used to shade critical components.”
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/bsf11-4.php
Cheers, 🙂

Shawnhet
February 16, 2013 10:00 pm

I seem to have lost an earlier post into the ether. Sorry if this ends up duplicating.
“Greg House says:
February 16, 2013 at 1:23 pm
Shawnhet says, February 16, 2013 at 3:02 am: “They don’t say so explicitly but it is in there.”
=======================================================
It is not there.
To me, not to tell people in the article “Multi-layer insulation” that multi-layer insulation is designed to prevent the satellite from overheating because of solar radiation is a clear indication of the misleading nature of the article. Given the “explanation” in the article I can only suspect warmists.”
It’s not necessary to invoke a conspiracy to explain this. Even if one ignores the fact that something that acts as insulation will act to protect items from temperature extremes(that is what insulation does). The link the wiki page references says *exactly* what you seem to be requiring.
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/bsf11-4.php
“Passive thermal control is obtained with multi-layer insulation, MLI, which is often the most visible part of a spacecraft. White or gold-colored thermal blankets reflect infrared, IR, helping to protect the spacecraft from excess solar heating. Gold is a very efficient IR reflector, and is used to shade critical components.”
Cheers, 🙂

February 16, 2013 10:24 pm

Will,
Here is a black body power calculator http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/p_thermo/wien
You can use it to tell you how many watts are being exchanged between blocks of ice.

Baa Humbug
February 16, 2013 11:14 pm

I’ve tried to look at this from a different point of view.
Let us assume both the core and the shell are perfect black bodies.
The temperature of the nuclear powered core emitting 235Wm2 would be ~254K.
Forgetting for a moment that the shell would be losing heat from 2 surfaces whilst gaining heat from one side only, this shell can only get to a maximum temperature of 254K
Yet it enables the core to increase its temperature to ~302K
Food for thought, but I’m yet to be convinced. There has to be an engineering application there where we can start with the smallest of energy sources and multiply it by just adding more and more shells until we have a unit capable of burning down whole cities or heating up swimming pools or running boilers for power or………..

February 17, 2013 1:08 am

MiCro says:
February 16, 2013 at 4:00 pm
You thought you were clever and you took your family into the ice building. By the time the rescuers arrived and discovered your shrivelled carcasses, the ice, like the building the ice was in had failen to almost 0K.
Yet the other building, which was designed to comfortably accommodate humans and therefore unlike the ice store, was fully thermally isolated and insulated from the luna extremes, was still a comfortable 288K
History is a litany of clever dead people.

Reply to  Will
February 17, 2013 6:48 am

@Will,
” You thought you were clever and you took your family into the ice building. By the time the rescuers arrived and discovered your shrivelled carcasses, the ice, like the building the ice was in had failen to almost 0K.
Yet the other building, which was designed to comfortably accommodate humans and therefore unlike the ice store, was fully thermally isolated and insulated from the luna extremes, was still a comfortable 288K
History is a litany of clever dead people.”
I thought saying they were the same other than one empty, and the other almost full of ice was the clear give away that they were identical otherwise, and without power the empty ones temp would quickly drop without power.
It is almost entertaining watching the mental gymnastics of you and Greg trying to somehow justify sticking to your incorrect versions of reality.
Did you go take a look at that link to the blackbody calculator? Or are you like Greg, everyone else is wrong, but you?

Don
February 17, 2013 1:10 am

Perhaps a look at the operating principle of a Golay cell might be instructive. It is able to detect IR radiation through the radiative heating (or, ahem, “thermalizing”, if you will) and expansion of IR-absorbing gases(!), and though it operates at room temperature it can be used to determine temperatures of planetary surfaces by measuring the radiation they emit, including temperatures below that of the cell itself. It seems to me that if a cooler body cannot influence the temperature of a warmer body via a change in net radiative energy flow, a Golay cell would be unable to detect radiation from or measure temperatures of bodies cooler than itself. Whether one conceptualizes the cooler body “heating” the cell radiatively or conceptualizes the cooler body impeding the radiative losses of the cell, the net effect (we are the Knights Who Say… “NET!”) is the same, and reinforces my previous conclusion that Willis’ internally heated planet will warm to a higher equilibrium surface temperature if a shell is added as described, Wood experiment notwithstanding.
One can purchase a Golay cell with a credit card. That’s what I call an experiment. Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” objectors, please offer a plausible alternate explanation for the operating principle and pertinent implications of a Golay cell.

February 17, 2013 2:39 am

Don says:
February 17, 2013 at 1:10 am
“It is able to detect IR radiation through the radiative heating (or, ahem, “thermalizing”, if you will) and expansion of IR-absorbing gases(!),”
No, the gas does not “thermalize” the IR. The gas is warmed by a AC current through a metal plate.
This is an “optical microphone”.
http://gentec-eo.com/Content/uploads/downloads/5-THz_Detectors/AN_121D-201924_THz.pdf

Shawnhet
February 17, 2013 7:58 am

Baa Humbug says:
February 16, 2013 at 11:14 pm
“Food for thought, but I’m yet to be convinced. There has to be an engineering application there where we can start with the smallest of energy sources and multiply it by just adding more and more shells until we have a unit capable of burning down whole cities or heating up swimming pools or running boilers for power or………..”
LOL! We already have this. It’s called insulation. It just doesn’t work in *exactly* the same way that you think it is supposed to.
Cheers, 🙂

February 17, 2013 8:19 am

MiCro says:
February 17, 2013 at 6:48 am
Yes, never mind the fact that you are so “clever” that you didn’t realise the ice would fall to 0K at practically the same rate as the building.
Mental gymnastics indeed!

Verified by MonsterInsights