The R. W. Wood Experiment

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Pushed by a commenter on another thread, I thought I’d discuss the R. W. Wood experiment, done in 1909. Many people hold that this experiment shows that CO2 absorption and/or back-radiation doesn’t exist, or at least that the poorly named “greenhouse effect” is trivially small. I say it doesn’t show anything at all. Let me show you the manifold problems with the experiment.

To start with, let me give a curious example of the greenhouse effect, that of the Steel Greenhouse. Imagine a planet in the vacuum of space. A residue of nuclear material reacting in the core warms it to where it is radiating at say 235 watts per square metre (W/m2). Figure 1 shows the situation.

steel greenhouse 1Figure 1. Planet in outer space, heated from the interior. Drawing show equilibrium situation

This planet is at equilibrium. The natural reactor in the core of the planet is generating power that at the planet’s surface amounts to 235 W/m2. It is radiating the same amount, so it is neither warming nor cooling.

Now, imagine that without changing anything else, we put a steel shell around the planet. Figure 2 shows that situation, with one side of the shell temporarily removed so we can look inside.

steel greenhouse 2Figure 2. As in Figure 1, but with a solid steel shell surrounding the planet. Near side of the shell temporarily removed to view interior. Vertical distance of the shell from the surface is greatly exaggerated for clarity—in reality the shell and the shell have nearly the same surface area. (A shell 6 miles (10 km) above the Earth has an exterior area only 0.3% larger than the Earth’s surface area.)

[UPDATE: Misunderstandings revealed in the comments demonstrated that I  lacked clarity. To expand, let me note that because the difference in exterior surface area of the shell and the surface is only 0.3%,  I am making the simplifying assumption that they are equal. This clarifies the situation greatly. Yes, it introduces a whopping error of 0.3% in the calculations, which people have jumped all over in the comments as if it meant something … really, folks, 0.3%? If you like, you can do the calculations in total watts, which comes to the same answer. I am also making the simplifying assumption that both the planet and shell are “blackbodies”, meaning they absorb all of the infrared that hits them.]

Now, note what happens when we add a shell around the planet. The shell warms up and it begins to radiate as well … but it radiates the same amount inwards and outwards. The inwards radiation warms the surface of the planet, until it is radiating at 470 W/m2. At that point the system is back in equilibrium. The planet is receiving 235 W/m2 from the interior, plus 235 W/m2 from the shell, and it is radiating the total amount, 470 W/m2. The shell is receiving 470 W/m2 from the planet, and it is radiating the same amount, half inwards back to the planet and half outwards to outer space. Note also that despite the fact that the planetary surface ends up much warmer (radiating 470 W/m2), energy is conserved. The same 235 W/m2 of power is emitted to space as in Figure 1.

And that is all that there is to the poorly named greenhouse effect. It does not require CO2 or an atmosphere, it can be built out of steel. It depends entirely on the fact that a shell has two sides and a solid body only has one side.

Now, this magical system works because there is a vacuum between the planet and the shell. As a result, the planet and the shell can take up very different temperatures. If they could not do so, if for example the shell were held up by huge thick pillars that efficiently conducted the heat from the surface to the shell, then the two would always be at the same temperature, and that temperature would be such that the system radiated at 235 W/m2. There would be no differential heating of the surface, and there would be no greenhouse effect.

Another way to lower the efficiency of the system is to introduce an atmosphere. Each watt of power lost by atmospheric convection of heat from the surface to the shell reduces the radiation temperature of the surface by the same amount. If the atmosphere can conduct the surface temperature effectively enough to the shell, the surface ends up only slightly warmer than the shell.

Let me summarize. In order for the greenhouse effect to function, the shell has to be thermally isolated from the surface so that the temperatures of the two can differ substantially. If the atmosphere or other means efficiently transfers surface heat to the shell there will be very little difference in temperature between the two.

Now, remember that I started out to discuss the R. W. Wood experiment. Here is the report of that experiment, from the author. I have highlighted the experimental setup.

Note on the Theory of the Greenhouse

By Professor R. W. Wood (Communicated by the Author)

THERE appears to be a widespread belief that the comparatively high temperature produced within a closed space covered with glass, and exposed to solar radiation, results from a transformation of wave-length, that is, that the heat waves from the sun, which are able to penetrate the glass, fall upon the walls of the enclosure and raise its temperature: the heat energy is re-emitted by the walls in the form of much longer waves, which are unable to penetrate the glass, the greenhouse acting as a radiation trap.

I have always felt some doubt as to whether this action played any very large part in the elevation of temperature. It appeared much more probable that the part played by the glass was the prevention of the escape of the warm air heated by the ground within the enclosure. If we open the doors of a greenhouse on a cold and windy day, the trapping of radiation appears to lose much of its efficacy. As a matter of fact I am of the opinion that a greenhouse made of a glass transparent to waves of every possible length would show a temperature nearly, if not quite, as high as that observed in a glass house. The transparent screen allows the solar radiation to warm the ground, and the ground in turn warms the air, but only the limited amount within the enclosure. In the “open,” the ground is continually brought into contact with cold air by convection currents.

To test the matter I constructed two enclosures of dead black cardboard, one covered with a glass plate, the other with a plate of rock-salt of equal thickness. The bulb of a thermometer was inserted in each enclosure and the whole packed in cotton, with the exception of the transparent plates which were exposed. When exposed to sunlight the temperature rose gradually to 65 oC., the enclosure covered with the salt plate keeping a little ahead of the other, owing to the fact that it transmitted the longer waves from the sun, which were stopped by the glass. In order to eliminate this action the sunlight was first passed through a glass plate.

There was now scarcely a difference of one degree between the temperatures of the two enclosures. The maximum temperature reached was about 55 oC. From what we know about the distribution of energy in the spectrum of the radiation emitted by a body at 55 o, it is clear that the rock-salt plate is capable of transmitting practically all of it, while the glass plate stops it entirely. This shows us that the loss of temperature of the ground by radiation is very small in comparison to the loss by convection, in other words that we gain very little from the circumstance that the radiation is trapped.

Is it therefore necessary to pay attention to trapped radiation in deducing the temperature of a planet as affected by its atmosphere? The solar rays penetrate the atmosphere, warm the ground which in turn warms the atmosphere by contact and by convection currents. The heat received is thus stored up in the atmosphere, remaining there on account of the very low radiating power of a gas. It seems to me very doubtful if the atmosphere is warmed to any great extent by absorbing the radiation from the ground, even under the most favourable conditions.

I do not pretend to have gone very deeply into the matter, and publish this note merely to draw attention to the fact that trapped radiation appears to play but a very small part in the actual cases with which we are familiar.

Here would be my interpretation of his experimental setup:

r w wood experiment 2Figure 3. Cross section of the R. W. Wood experiment. The two cardboard boxes are painted black. One is covered with glass, which absorbs and re-emits infrared. The other is covered with rock salt, which is transparent to infrared. They are packed in cotton wool. Thermometers not shown.

Bearing in mind the discussion of the steel greenhouse above, I leave it as an exercise for the interested reader to work out why this is not a valid test of infrared back-radiation on a planetary scale … please consider the presence of the air in the boxes, the efficiency of the convective heat transfer through that air from the box to the cover plates, the vertical temperature profile of that air, the transfer of power from the “surface” to the “shell” through the walls of the box, and the relative temperatures of the air, the box, and the transparent cover.

Seems to me like with a few small changes it could indeed be a valid test, however.

Best regards,

w.

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tallbloke
February 14, 2013 9:35 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
February 9, 2013 at 2:18 pm
it might relate to the fact that Tallbloke banned me from his site for saying that a perpetual motion machine wouldn’t work, and I haven’t been back since.

This is a lie. I still have a copy of the comment Willis left on the suggestions thread at the talkshop saying that he would ban himself if I didn’t run my blog how he said I should and let Joel Shore run riot with his threadbombing tendencies. Nothing to do with his scientific views, which I devoted a thread of it’s own to. Needless to say I took him up on his offer.
The comment about perpetual motion machines here shows Willis still doesn’t understand how the higher heat capacity of the denser near surface air retains energy better than thin cold mountain top air at night, thus raising the near surface average temperature. I also have some more experimental evidence for publication demonstrating a temperature gradient in an enclosed tube, confirming Graeff’s work. Experimentum summas Judex – Albert Einstein.
He’s still welcome here and visits my threads, but I won’t go to a site where people are banned for their scientific views. He put himself in the same boat as RealClimate and Open Mind
People who know how to put forward scientific views and listen and respond to the criticism of others with courtesy and respect are always welcome at the talkshop. Bigmouths like Willis, and threadbombers like Joel Shore don’t get past the door however.

tallbloke
February 14, 2013 10:39 am

Ah, more bullying and blustering.
Willis said:
“Tallbloke banned me from his site for saying that a perpetual motion machine wouldn’t work”
This is a lie.
Actually it’s two lies.
Lie one: “Tallbloke banned me from his site”
No, you banned yourself from my site because I didn’t give in to your ultimatum telling me how i should run my website, AS YOU JUST ADMITTED ABOVE, by saying:
“I said I wouldn’t go to your site. So you are correct that I banned myself”.
Glad that one’s settled then, liar.
Lie two: ” for saying that a perpetual motion machine wouldn’t work”
No. You banned yourself, so how could I have banned you for anything?
You still don’t understand the difference between the various arguments about the effect of pressure on temperature either.
Your capability with logic is really on the slide.

Reply to  tallbloke
February 14, 2013 11:16 am

Willis and TB, this tussle is old news, take it off-site.

Gary Hladik
February 14, 2013 8:49 pm

Sooooo, how about that steel greenhouse, eh?
Pretty nifty, huh?
Yeeeeep, pret-ty nif-ty…mmm hmm…
Anybody?

Bart
February 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Gary Hladik says:
February 14, 2013 at 8:49 pm
“Sooooo, how about that steel greenhouse, eh?”
It’s done – see my posts above before things degenerated completely into a flame war. Verdict: the shell increases the planet’s surface temperature above what it would be without the shell, but the effect is maximized for a thin shell, and a thicker shell generally decreases the surface temperature below what it would be for a thinner shell.
I believe this happens because of the surface area for radiation. Increasing the thickness generally decreases the surface area of the shell facing the planet, while increasing it toward space. So, you get less radiated power going back to the planet, and more going out to space.
The implication for the climate debate is: adding CO2 to the atmosphere does not necessarily increase surface temperatures, and may even tend to decrease them. Certainly, the empirical evidence indicates that the CO2 effect on temperature is negligible compared to the temperature effect on CO2.

February 15, 2013 5:16 pm

davidmhoffer says:
February 12, 2013 at 9:03 pm
Put your piece of glass in the freezer for a few minutes and your remote will stop working. The glass will absorb IR until it reaches equilibrium with the source of IR or ambient temps. Then the IR is re-emitted and the remote will work again. Of course glass absorbs IR. All substances absorb IR. There is no exception. You are still clueless.
Willis’ “shell game” thought experiment is a deception. A surface radiating 235 w/m2 cannot warm another surface radiating at 235 w/m2 any more than one ice-cube can warm another ice-cube. Not in the atmosphere and not in a vacuum.
Take a 1 ounce ice-cube. Now place a 1 ton ice-cube next to it. You have nearly 4000 times as much energy in the 1 ton ice-cube, yet no increase in temperature in the1 ounce ice-cube. That is because the 1 ounce ice-cube is radiating at the same temperature as the 1 ton ice-cube, 273K.
It is not the amount of energy but the flux density which determines temperature. In the vacuum of space there is limitless energy. It is called Zero Point energy.

Bart
February 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Will says:
February 15, 2013 at 5:16 pm
“A surface radiating 235 w/m2 cannot warm another surface radiating at 235 w/m2 any more than one ice-cube can warm another ice-cube.”
The shell, to the degree that it is “thin”, is radiating at roughly twice that, because it has two sides, the inside and the outside, hence roughly twice the surface area.
An ice cube cannot warm another ice cube, but if you put them close together, the sides facing each other will melt slower.
That is exactly the situation in this thought experiment. It is about modulation of the flow of heat, not about one object serving as a heat source for another. The shell is not “heating” the planet. It is preventing it from shedding heat as fast as it otherwise would. And, with the continuous generation of heat from its core, that causes the surface temperature to rise from what it otherwise would have been.
This is how MLI blankets work. It is well established theory.

Greg House
February 15, 2013 9:24 pm

Bart says, February 15, 2013 at 8:28 pm: “This is how MLI blankets work. It is well established theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-layer_insulation
=========================================================
Surprisingly, the Wikipedia article you referred to does not contain a single word about MLI blankets designed to protect satellites from excess solar heating. Not a single word. I wonder why. Because things can get very very hot in space if they are exposed to the solar radiation, and note, there is no air outside the satellite to cool it via convection. A satellite can easily reach temperatures over 100C and this is not necessarily what devices inside a satellite like.
Why would Wikipedia keep quite about it? I can not find any rational reason to do that other than mislead the readers.

Gary Hladik
February 15, 2013 10:48 pm

Aha! I can foresee Willis’s next article now: “The MLI Greenhouse” 🙂

SkepticGoneWild
February 16, 2013 12:38 am

Davidmhoffer,
The remote control “experiment” really sucks. It is not the temperature of the remote control that determines its IR emission. The remote control has a battery, circuit board and an LED that sends a specific wave length. As long as the battery is functioning, it will emit IR. Secondly, very near infrared light is used in remote controls, and is in the 800-900nm range. This very short wavelength infrared energy can indeed go through glass.
______________________________
As Will stated above, a body cannot “warm” itself up. If that were the case, I could wrap my baseboard heater with a steel shell, and “abracadabra”, free heat. The light-bulb experiment Willis mentioned could be done with bulbs of the same wattage, since A warms B and B warms A. (according to Willis) According to physics, two bodies at the same temperature are in thermal equilibrium, and there is no exchange of heat, but according to Willis, they exchange heat, because A warms B and B warms A. When does the cycle end? What Willis has constructed is a device know in physics as “The Perpetual Motion of the Second Kind”. The Willis planet is indeed, as he states, “magical”, because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
If you read the MLI Wikipedia article, the original plate still radiates its original amount of 460 W and does not heat up as does the Willis model. MLI is just super-insulation that works great in the radiation spectrum of heat transfer, as opposed to convection and conduction. The Willis model bears no resemblance to the theory of MLI technology.

February 16, 2013 1:36 am

Bart says:
February 15, 2013 at 8:28 pm
“The shell, to the degree that it is “thin”, is radiating at roughly twice that, because it has two sides, the inside and the outside, hence roughly twice the surface area.”
It is still only radiating at 235 w/m2 in any given direction. You cannot sum the energy flow in different directions and apply it back to the other surface. A square ice-cube has 6 surfaces all radiating at 273K. Do we add those 6 surfaces together to get the total temperature of the ice?
From your link, quote:
“The principle behind MLI is radiation balance. To see why it works, start with a concrete example – imagine a square meter of a surface in outer space, at 300 K, with an emissivity of 1, facing away from the sun or other heat sources. From the Stefan-Boltzmann law, this surface will radiate 460 watts. Now imagine we place a thin (but opaque) layer 1 cm away from the plate, thermally insulated from it, and also with an emissivity of 1. This new layer will cool until it is radiating 230 watts from each side, at which point everything is in balance. The new layer receives 460 watts from the original plate. 230 watts is radiated back to the original plate, and 230 watts to space. The original surface still radiates 460 watts, but gets 230 back from the new layers, for a net loss of 230 watts. So overall, the radiation losses have been reduced by half by adding the additional layer.”
The reality is the exact opposite of Willis’ “thought experiment” just as I said was the case further up the thread.
So the shell will actually only radiate 117.5 w/m2 in each direction. Like I said, Willis is double counting.
I love it when people don’t even bother to read or understand their own links.

Reply to  Will
February 16, 2013 8:21 am

Will,
“So the shell will actually only radiate 117.5 w/m2 in each direction.”
But the interior is still supplying 235W, so the surface temp goes up, until it stablizes at the temp it needs to radiate 235W. This cycle of inner surface temp increase, outer shell temp increase, continues until the outer shell is radiating the equivalent of the cores 235W/sq M.

Lars P.
February 16, 2013 2:30 am

SkepticGoneWild says:
February 16, 2013 at 12:38 am
What Willis has constructed is a device know in physics as “The Perpetual Motion of the Second Kind”. The Willis planet is indeed, as he states, “magical”, because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
I agree with SkepticGoneWild on this.
I think much of the trouble with the greenhouse hypothesis and such exercises is they try to calculate the energy budget based on independent calculated radiation from Stefan-Boltzmann’s law of the 2 bodies.
In my humble opinion, the way how to fix it is to calculate net-heat transfer throughout the system and take from it the resulting temperatures. See also:
http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node137.html
This is why I like much more the following energy budget:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Breakdown_of_the_incoming_solar_energy.svg

Shawnhet
February 16, 2013 3:02 am

Greg House says:
February 15, 2013 at 9:24 pm
“Surprisingly, the Wikipedia article you referred to does not contain a single word about MLI blankets designed to protect satellites from excess solar heating. Not a single word. I wonder why. Because things can get very very hot in space if they are exposed to the solar radiation, and note, there is no air outside the satellite to cool it via convection. A satellite can easily reach temperatures over 100C and this is not necessarily what devices inside a satellite like.”
They don’t say so explicitly but it is in there. From the article:”Clearly, increasing the number of layers and decreasing the emissivity both lower the heat transfer coefficient, which is equivalent to a higher insulation value.” If the heat transfer coefficient is lower the satellite will be protected from warmer temps (ie less warmth from the outside of the satellite to the inside).
Cheers, 🙂

February 16, 2013 9:30 am

MiCro says:
February 16, 2013 at 8:21 am
“But the interior is still supplying 235W, so the surface temp goes up, until it stablizes at the temp it needs to radiate 235W.”
No it doesn’t.
As I have previously explained, an object radiating at 235 W/m2 cannot raise the temperature of another object radiating at 235 W/m2. So how do you think an object radiating at half that, 117.5 W/m2 can do it?
Again, take one ice-cube radiating at 273K. Introduce another ice-cube radiating at 273K and what happens to the temperature of the first ice-cube? Nothing happens!
Now add another ice-cube, add another 100, 1000, or 1000,000 ice-cubes all radiating at 273K and what happens to the temperature of the first ice-cube? Again, exactly NOTHING!
Two words, FLUX DENSITY.
Even when you stack the deck with impossible thought experiments, it is impossible to show a “greenhouse effect”.
The Second Law, entropy, trumps the “greenhouse effect” fallacy.

February 16, 2013 10:19 am

Okay, I’m going to give you an analogy that everyone should be able to understand.
It’s cold, you’re cold, your feet are cold, and you jump into a cold bed, but in a little bit, your feet warm up, the bed is warm.
Second analogy, It’s warm, you jump in a cold bed, and in a little bit, you’re hot, the bed’s hot.
If you don’t understand this, don’t bother to ask me to explain it.

Bart
February 16, 2013 11:43 am

Greg House says:
February 15, 2013 at 9:24 pm
“Surprisingly, the Wikipedia article you referred to does not contain a single word about MLI blankets designed to protect satellites from excess solar heating.”
The purpose is to distribute the heat evenly about the spacecraft, otherwise, there would be huge gradients. It does this by preventing radiation from escaping in the wrong direction. And, then there is the question of surviving during eclipse, when there is no solar heating. The MLI keeps the heat from radiating away during that time. Typical operating temperatures are -10 C to +40 C. Without the MLI, it would be impossible to keep them in that range.
SkepticGoneWild says:
February 16, 2013 at 12:38 am
“If that were the case, I could wrap my baseboard heater with a steel shell, and “abracadabra”, free heat.”
The heater would get hotter. Not you.
” MLI is just super-insulation that works great in the radiation spectrum of heat transfer, as opposed to convection and conduction.”
And, the steel shell acts as an insulator to radiation in Willis’ example. It is the same.
Will says:
February 16, 2013 at 1:36 am
Read it again until you understand it.

Bart
February 16, 2013 11:50 am

SkepticGoneWild says:
February 16, 2013 at 12:38 am
“What Willis has constructed is a device know in physics as “The Perpetual Motion of the Second Kind”. The Willis planet is indeed, as he states, “magical”, because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.”
No. The shell isn’t supplying the heat, the nuclear reaction in the planet’s core is. The flow of radiation is always outward. The shell settles out at a lower temperature than the planet’s surface, so everything is consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.
This is a continuous flow problem. If you impede a continuous flow, then the quantity flowing will backup behind the impediment. It is just like damming a river. The dam does not produce water, yet it causes water to accumulate behind the dam.

February 16, 2013 12:23 pm

Bart says:
February 16, 2013 at 11:43 am
“The principle behind MLI is radiation balance. To see why it works, start with a concrete example – imagine a square meter of a surface in outer space, at 300 K, with an emissivity of 1, facing away from the sun or other heat sources. From the Stefan-Boltzmann law, this surface will radiate 460 watts. Now imagine we place a thin (but opaque) layer 1 cm away from the plate, thermally insulated from it, and also with an emissivity of 1. This new layer will cool until it is radiating 230 watts from each side, at which point everything is in balance. The new layer receives 460 watts from the original plate. 230 watts is radiated back to the original plate, and 230 watts to space. The original surface still radiates 460 watts, but gets 230 back from the new layers, for a net loss of 230 watts. So overall, the radiation losses have been reduced by half by adding the additional layer.”
This is a contradiction of your position, not mine. It is confirmation of my position right through this thread Bart.
You read it again until you understand that you are hopelessly in error.
The temperature is unchanged, a clue for you: “The original surface still radiates 460 watts”
Does that help at all Bart?

MostCasualObserver
February 16, 2013 12:27 pm

Micro,
<>
I think a better analogy is charging a capacitor. One way to charge one is using a constant voltage source and another way to charge is using a constant current source. Using a constant voltage source, the capacitor can only charge up to source voltage. Using a current source, it will charge up until it reaches the dielectric break down voltage or some other catastrophic failure. Think of energy transfer as analogous to current and temperature as anologous to voltage.
In the steel shell model, the energy transfer rate of the inner shell is fixed. The internal temperature of the planet is implicity adjusted to keep this number constant. This is analogous to a constant current source. So to maintain the 235 W/m^2 at the outside of the steel shell, the power generation of the planet would have to increase and this would increase the planet internal temperature.
However, the sun acts as a constant temperature source and so should the planet interior. The nuclear core should only generate enough energy to keep the interior at a constant temperature if the intention is to model the surface of a planet being illuminated by the sun since there is nothing that can be done on earth that can measurably affect the temperature of the sun.
Your body with a blanket works in a similiar fashion, with or without a blanket your core temp should be 98.6 – a constant, like the temperature of sun surface.

Greg House
February 16, 2013 1:23 pm

Shawnhet says, February 16, 2013 at 3:02 am: “They don’t say so explicitly but it is in there.”
=======================================================
It is not there.
To me, not to tell people in the article “Multi-layer insulation” that multi-layer insulation is designed to prevent the satellite from overheating because of solar radiation is a clear indication of the misleading nature of the article. Given the “explanation” in the article I can only suspect warmists.

Greg House
February 16, 2013 1:29 pm

MiCro says, February 16, 2013 at 10:19 am: “Okay, I’m going to give you an analogy that everyone should be able to understand.
It’s cold, you’re cold, your feet are cold, and you jump into a cold bed, but in a little bit, your feet warm up, the bed is warm.”

=========================================================
You are not cold. Your feet are not cold. Your skin might get cold even if it is very warm outside you, but it is a physiological phenomenon.
You have a “heating device” inside you.

Greg House
February 16, 2013 1:39 pm

Bart says, February 16, 2013 at 11:43 am: “The purpose is to distribute the heat evenly about the spacecraft, otherwise, there would be huge gradients. It does this by preventing radiation from escaping in the wrong direction. And, then there is the question of surviving during eclipse, when there is no solar heating. The MLI keeps the heat from radiating away during that time.”
==========================================================
I suggest you read the description of the R.W.Wood experiment again. It demonstrates that “trapped radiation” has no or only negligible effect on temperature of the source. The MLI article from Misleadingpedia simply repeats the same unproven claim. It is not any better scientifically than the MiCro’s analogy with cold feet.
The trick is apparently to find something ambiguous and just claim it is the back radiation warming.

Reply to  Greg House
February 16, 2013 3:41 pm

House
” It is not any better scientifically than the MiCro’s analogy with cold feet.”
I expected you wouldn’t get it, and I expected Will to not get my posts either.
@Casual, they are both stuck in 19th century physics, and appear clueless with 20th century physics, I didn’t expect them to get electronics either. Cold feet, constant voltage, nuclear core constant current.
And I wouldn’t even care, except we get tared by the same brush.

February 16, 2013 2:02 pm

Bart says:
February 16, 2013 at 11:50 am
“This is a continuous flow problem. If you impede a continuous flow, then the quantity flowing will backup behind the impediment. It is just like damming a river. The dam does not produce water, yet it causes water to accumulate behind the dam.”
There is NOTHING impeding the flow of energy in this “thought experiment” or in the so called “greenhouse effect”.
Such notions are purely a figment of your imagination Bart.

Gary Hladik
February 16, 2013 2:40 pm

Will says (February 16, 2013 at 9:30 am): [snip]
Out of curiosity, Will, what’s your take on Roy Spencer’s “Yes, Virginia” thought experiment?
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2010/07/yes-virginia-cooler-objects-can-make-warmer-objects-even-warmer-still/
If the experiment is done for real, then with the second body present, do you predict the electrically heated body will be
a) warmer
b) cooler
c) the same temp
as it is with the second body absent?

Reply to  Gary Hladik
February 16, 2013 4:00 pm

Ok Will,
A word problem, with you and your families life at stake.
You’re all on the moon, there are two basketball court sized buildings, ones empty, the other is 3/4’s full of ice. You just lost building power, and it has just turned dark. You all have space suits that have power that will last 20 hrs. Help will be there in 40-45 hrs. And the empty shelter will cool to outside temp in less that 10 hrs. The suits would last 35 hrs at 0C.
What do you do and why? Remember everyone’s life is at stake.

Reply to  Gary Hladik
February 16, 2013 4:11 pm

I should have said the suits will last 20hrs on the dark surface of the moon.

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