Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Pushed by a commenter on another thread, I thought I’d discuss the R. W. Wood experiment, done in 1909. Many people hold that this experiment shows that CO2 absorption and/or back-radiation doesn’t exist, or at least that the poorly named “greenhouse effect” is trivially small. I say it doesn’t show anything at all. Let me show you the manifold problems with the experiment.
To start with, let me give a curious example of the greenhouse effect, that of the Steel Greenhouse. Imagine a planet in the vacuum of space. A residue of nuclear material reacting in the core warms it to where it is radiating at say 235 watts per square metre (W/m2). Figure 1 shows the situation.
Figure 1. Planet in outer space, heated from the interior. Drawing show equilibrium situation
This planet is at equilibrium. The natural reactor in the core of the planet is generating power that at the planet’s surface amounts to 235 W/m2. It is radiating the same amount, so it is neither warming nor cooling.
Now, imagine that without changing anything else, we put a steel shell around the planet. Figure 2 shows that situation, with one side of the shell temporarily removed so we can look inside.
Figure 2. As in Figure 1, but with a solid steel shell surrounding the planet. Near side of the shell temporarily removed to view interior. Vertical distance of the shell from the surface is greatly exaggerated for clarity—in reality the shell and the shell have nearly the same surface area. (A shell 6 miles (10 km) above the Earth has an exterior area only 0.3% larger than the Earth’s surface area.)
[UPDATE: Misunderstandings revealed in the comments demonstrated that I lacked clarity. To expand, let me note that because the difference in exterior surface area of the shell and the surface is only 0.3%, I am making the simplifying assumption that they are equal. This clarifies the situation greatly. Yes, it introduces a whopping error of 0.3% in the calculations, which people have jumped all over in the comments as if it meant something … really, folks, 0.3%? If you like, you can do the calculations in total watts, which comes to the same answer. I am also making the simplifying assumption that both the planet and shell are “blackbodies”, meaning they absorb all of the infrared that hits them.]
Now, note what happens when we add a shell around the planet. The shell warms up and it begins to radiate as well … but it radiates the same amount inwards and outwards. The inwards radiation warms the surface of the planet, until it is radiating at 470 W/m2. At that point the system is back in equilibrium. The planet is receiving 235 W/m2 from the interior, plus 235 W/m2 from the shell, and it is radiating the total amount, 470 W/m2. The shell is receiving 470 W/m2 from the planet, and it is radiating the same amount, half inwards back to the planet and half outwards to outer space. Note also that despite the fact that the planetary surface ends up much warmer (radiating 470 W/m2), energy is conserved. The same 235 W/m2 of power is emitted to space as in Figure 1.
And that is all that there is to the poorly named greenhouse effect. It does not require CO2 or an atmosphere, it can be built out of steel. It depends entirely on the fact that a shell has two sides and a solid body only has one side.
Now, this magical system works because there is a vacuum between the planet and the shell. As a result, the planet and the shell can take up very different temperatures. If they could not do so, if for example the shell were held up by huge thick pillars that efficiently conducted the heat from the surface to the shell, then the two would always be at the same temperature, and that temperature would be such that the system radiated at 235 W/m2. There would be no differential heating of the surface, and there would be no greenhouse effect.
Another way to lower the efficiency of the system is to introduce an atmosphere. Each watt of power lost by atmospheric convection of heat from the surface to the shell reduces the radiation temperature of the surface by the same amount. If the atmosphere can conduct the surface temperature effectively enough to the shell, the surface ends up only slightly warmer than the shell.
Let me summarize. In order for the greenhouse effect to function, the shell has to be thermally isolated from the surface so that the temperatures of the two can differ substantially. If the atmosphere or other means efficiently transfers surface heat to the shell there will be very little difference in temperature between the two.
Now, remember that I started out to discuss the R. W. Wood experiment. Here is the report of that experiment, from the author. I have highlighted the experimental setup.
Note on the Theory of the Greenhouse
By Professor R. W. Wood (Communicated by the Author)
THERE appears to be a widespread belief that the comparatively high temperature produced within a closed space covered with glass, and exposed to solar radiation, results from a transformation of wave-length, that is, that the heat waves from the sun, which are able to penetrate the glass, fall upon the walls of the enclosure and raise its temperature: the heat energy is re-emitted by the walls in the form of much longer waves, which are unable to penetrate the glass, the greenhouse acting as a radiation trap.
I have always felt some doubt as to whether this action played any very large part in the elevation of temperature. It appeared much more probable that the part played by the glass was the prevention of the escape of the warm air heated by the ground within the enclosure. If we open the doors of a greenhouse on a cold and windy day, the trapping of radiation appears to lose much of its efficacy. As a matter of fact I am of the opinion that a greenhouse made of a glass transparent to waves of every possible length would show a temperature nearly, if not quite, as high as that observed in a glass house. The transparent screen allows the solar radiation to warm the ground, and the ground in turn warms the air, but only the limited amount within the enclosure. In the “open,” the ground is continually brought into contact with cold air by convection currents.
To test the matter I constructed two enclosures of dead black cardboard, one covered with a glass plate, the other with a plate of rock-salt of equal thickness. The bulb of a thermometer was inserted in each enclosure and the whole packed in cotton, with the exception of the transparent plates which were exposed. When exposed to sunlight the temperature rose gradually to 65 oC., the enclosure covered with the salt plate keeping a little ahead of the other, owing to the fact that it transmitted the longer waves from the sun, which were stopped by the glass. In order to eliminate this action the sunlight was first passed through a glass plate.
There was now scarcely a difference of one degree between the temperatures of the two enclosures. The maximum temperature reached was about 55 oC. From what we know about the distribution of energy in the spectrum of the radiation emitted by a body at 55 o, it is clear that the rock-salt plate is capable of transmitting practically all of it, while the glass plate stops it entirely. This shows us that the loss of temperature of the ground by radiation is very small in comparison to the loss by convection, in other words that we gain very little from the circumstance that the radiation is trapped.
Is it therefore necessary to pay attention to trapped radiation in deducing the temperature of a planet as affected by its atmosphere? The solar rays penetrate the atmosphere, warm the ground which in turn warms the atmosphere by contact and by convection currents. The heat received is thus stored up in the atmosphere, remaining there on account of the very low radiating power of a gas. It seems to me very doubtful if the atmosphere is warmed to any great extent by absorbing the radiation from the ground, even under the most favourable conditions.
I do not pretend to have gone very deeply into the matter, and publish this note merely to draw attention to the fact that trapped radiation appears to play but a very small part in the actual cases with which we are familiar.
Here would be my interpretation of his experimental setup:
Figure 3. Cross section of the R. W. Wood experiment. The two cardboard boxes are painted black. One is covered with glass, which absorbs and re-emits infrared. The other is covered with rock salt, which is transparent to infrared. They are packed in cotton wool. Thermometers not shown.
Bearing in mind the discussion of the steel greenhouse above, I leave it as an exercise for the interested reader to work out why this is not a valid test of infrared back-radiation on a planetary scale … please consider the presence of the air in the boxes, the efficiency of the convective heat transfer through that air from the box to the cover plates, the vertical temperature profile of that air, the transfer of power from the “surface” to the “shell” through the walls of the box, and the relative temperatures of the air, the box, and the transparent cover.
Seems to me like with a few small changes it could indeed be a valid test, however.
Best regards,
w.
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I found a page that provides a good example of what a IR thermometer will read when pointed at the sky.
MiCro says, February 12, 2013 at 11:21 am: “Greg,
Can you provide any explanation for why the chamber is colder than the outside temperature other than the sky being colder than the surrounding air temp?”
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MiCro, you do not wont to reverse the burden of proof, do you?
MiCro says, February 12, 2013 at 11:22 am: “I found a page that provides a good example of what a IR thermometer will read when pointed at the sky.”
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Right, thank you, this is another way to get rid of the so called “greenhouse effect”.
Just think of why they need the “focusing infrared light onto one side of the thermocouple using a specially designed lens” and can not just use a normal thermometer to measure the change in temperature without focusing. Or is “greenhouse effect” impossible without a lens?
Greg House says (February 12, 2013 at 11:49 am): “MiCro, you do not wont to reverse the burden of proof, do you?”
MiCro has a real experiment, you have only doubt. It’s up to you, now, to provide a better experiment or good reasons why MiCro’s (Dr. Spencer’s) experiment doesn’t show what he claims it does. Remember, experiment trumps theory every time.
You could start by naming some of the “few factors involved” that Dr. Spencer didn’t control for, and how failure to control for them would invalidate the experiment. Please be as specific as you can, so Dr. Spencer could presumably improve his apparatus.
Greg House says:
February 12, 2013 at 11:54 am
Dr Spencer’s experiment didn’t use a lens, and it shows a cooling effect due to the sky being colder than the air temp at the grounds surface.
My IR thermometer shows the sky being colder than the ground. This is why it gets colder at night, which I presume you want proof that it’s colder at night too?
As for a IR thermometer using a lens, camera’s use lenses to focus light and control the field of view, the same reason a IR thermometer would use a lens, since it’s focusing photons (that’s for you George!).
Greg, a lot of people have spent a lot of time trying to get you to see the light (sorry George). I am a firm believer that Co2 is not causing planetary warming beyond a slight non-worrisome amount. I’ve downloaded and worked on NCDC’s 120+ million station, CRU’s data, and BESTs data, what I’ve found is that there’s no loss of cooling at night. I am on the same side as you. But the sky isn’t -270C over my house, something is keeping it warmer than that, and I can measure IR coming from the sky, so did the link I posted, and so did Dr Spencer’s experiment, so have a number of other IR systems pointed at the sky.
I think most of the people here would rather we fight the hotheads, and make them realize that the temp of the sky over head is being controlled by water vapor, not Co2, because when there is no water, the temp at night drops a lot, quickly, because the sky is much colder than the surface air. We have multiple lines of proof. What we don’t have proof of is that the sky is the same temp as space, and Quantum physics demands that anything over absolute zero emits IR.
Gary Hladik says, February 12, 2013 at 12:41 pm: “You could start by naming some of the “few factors involved” that Dr. Spencer didn’t control for, and how failure to control for them would invalidate the experiment.”
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This is obvious. Conditions inside the box and outside the box are essentially different. The factors are convection and possibly wind. And influence of the box material.
As I said before, you can compare temperatures in boxes, but you need to have only one (significant) difference between them, then you can conclude whether this difference plays any significant part or not. Two states with one difference, other factors equal. It is a basic stuff.
OK, let me give you an example, since you do not get it. Take the remote, point it to the TV set, say “abracadabra” and press the power button. You can watch TV now. Apparently, because you said “abracadabra”. But [let’s] check it, like climate scientists would do, I guess. Turn the TV set off again. Now, take the remote, point it to the opposite direction, do not say “abracadabra” this time and press the power button. You can not watch TV now. Apparently, because you did not say “abracadabra”. Scientists know it as the abracadabra effect.
MiCro says:
February 12, 2013 at 11:22 am
I found a page that provides a good example of what a IR thermometer will read when pointed at the sky.
MiCro I read the link you provided and it gives a good reason as to why CO2 is not doing anything. The graphic shows IR thermometers one pointed at a dry sky and the other at a “damp” sky. Showing that a “damp” shy has a higher temperature than the dry. But CO2 is well mixed the two shots have the same ppm so they are saying what many of us have said we live in a water world.
mkelly says:
February 12, 2013 at 1:54 pm
And pretty much every line of evidence agrees with this, except GCM’s which are specifically programmed not to.
If you follow the link in my name, I’ve blogged about the data I’ve mined from the NCDC data set, and it shows that on average night time temps fall as much as they go up during the day, with only slight differences, but no trend connected to raising co2.
But also let me make two additional notes, I suspect with careful measurements of dry air, we’d see an increase in the skies temps with increasing co2, but it is small, and dwarfed by the water vapor in the air, I’ve also noticed a high temp IR signal during the day time, that looks like it’s a reflection of the sun off the atm, if the reflection is from co2, an increase would cause an increase in warming, this could be part of the measured warming. But in all cases it’s water that controls cooling, and from what I can tell from my mining, it reduces cooling by half or more what the co2 alone cooling would be (~18F of cooling down from ~40F/night of cooling of dry air), and my IR reading of the sky on a cold day (which has low humidity) agrees with that (as the link does as well).
We just need to get this kind of proof out to the population so we can stop the politicians from their attempts to cure something that doesn’t exist.
Greg House:”This is obvious. Conditions inside the box and outside the box are essentially different. The factors are convection and possibly wind. And influence of the box material.
As I said before, you can compare temperatures in boxes, but you need to have only one (significant) difference between them, then you can conclude whether this difference plays any significant part or not. Two states with one difference, other factors equal. It is a basic stuff.”
Usually, in science, people who think that a particular result doesn’t demonstrate that a given hypothesis is true are expected to demonstrate why. Can you demonstrate how convection or wind can account for the *results* in Spencer’s experiment? All science is provisional so if you have a better explanation please offer it. Just because something else might account for a set of evidence doesn’t mean that it does.
Unfortunately, lots of folks think that all they have to do is raise some unquantifiable doubt but if you want to be taken seriously you need to quantify your objections somehow.
Cheers, 🙂
Greg House says (February 12, 2013 at 1:53 pm): “Conditions inside the box and outside the box are essentially different.”
Exactly. The whole point of the experiment is to make “inside” the box different from “outside” the box. That’s why there’s a temperature difference. Good, this is progress.
“The factors are convection and possibly wind. And influence of the box material.”
Good, good. But you haven’t explained how any of these factors invalidate the experiment. Verbal handwaving doesn’t challenge an experiment any more than “abracadabra” turns on a TV. But keep going, you’re doing great!
Gary Hladik says, February 12, 2013 at 6:43 pm: “Greg House says (February 12, 2013 at 1:53 pm): “Conditions inside the box and outside the box are essentially different.”
Exactly. The whole point of the experiment is to make “inside” the box different from “outside” the box. That’s why there’s a temperature difference.”
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The fact that two things are different is not enough to conclude why exactly the temperatures are different. If there is only one significant difference, than you can conclude on it. If there a few significant differences, you can not just choose one of them and make it responsible. You need to take the influence of other factors into account or show that they are negligible and so on, what Roy Spencer failed to do in that particular experiment.
Please, read the abracadabra example again and make an effort this time.
Greg House says:
February 12, 2013 at 7:26 pm
I’m not sure what the complete list of references and test I provided doesn’t answer for you, but I also know I can bounce the IR from my remote control off the wall on the opposite side of the room and still turn off the tv.
There just changed the channel while point at the wall. No abracadabra required.
Greg House says (February 12, 2013 at 7:26 pm): “The fact that two things are different is not enough to conclude why exactly the temperatures are different. If there is only one significant difference, than you can conclude on it. If there a few significant differences, you can not just choose one of them and make it responsible.”
You still haven’t explained how even one of the factors you mentioned invalidates the experiment. You’re still handwaving. Why not start with wind? That’s one of the factors you mentioned before. How does wind invalidate the experiment?
Remember, MiCro has a real live experiment and so far you have nothing. Anybody who can tell what’s wrong wth the abracadabra experiment should be able to tell what’s wrong (if anything) with MiCro’s. Make an effort this time.
Well folks, I just did an experiment. I fixed a small surface thermometer to a piece of glass, which absorbs IR. I allowed the temperature to stabilize at 19.2 degrees C. I then pointed my TV remote control directly at the piece of glass and held it “on” for 15 minutes. At the end of the 15 minutes, the temperature was still 19.2 degrees C. I observed the temperature for another 15 minutes after that, and is remained exactly the same. I tested the remote control both before and after the experiment to ensure that it was working by turning the TV on and off. So if glass absorbs IR, why didn’t the temperature change? Ooooh, I see a whole bunch of people reaching for their keyboards….
But folks, please….
Let Greg answer this one.
Gary Hladik says, February 12, 2013 at 8:16 pm: “Anybody who can tell what’s wrong wth the abracadabra experiment should be able to tell what’s wrong (if anything) with MiCro’s.”
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Well, go ahead then. Or are you still uncertain about the abracadabra effect? And why do you call it “MiCro’s”? I thought we were talking about Roy Spencers’.
davidmhoffer says, February 12, 2013 at 9:03 pm: “I fixed a small surface thermometer to a piece of glass, which absorbs IR. … I then pointed my TV remote control directly at the piece of glass and held it “on” for 15 minutes. … I tested the remote control… by turning the TV on and off. … Let Greg answer this one.”
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OK, just do not forget to put your toys back in place after you have finished playing, be a good boy.
Greg House says (February 12, 2013 at 9:18 pm): Well, essentially nothing.
Greg, you still haven’t explained what’s wrong with MiCro’s (Dr. Spencer’s) experiment. Do you now accept its results?
Gary Hladik says, February 12, 2013 at 10:26 pm: “Greg House says (February 12, 2013 at 9:18 pm): Well, essentially nothing.”
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I did not say “Well, essentially nothing.” Please, do not mislead the readers. Thank you.
Greg House;
OK, just do not forget to put your toys back in place after you have finished playing, be a good boy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In other words, either you can not or will not answer the question.
In other words, either you can not or will not answer the question.
>>>>>>>>>>
Mr Greg House, it seems you have a limited number of options:
1) Accept the results of my experiment, which proves that glass does NOT absorb IR as claimed in the Wood experiment, and that the Wood experiment is hence falsified.
2) Perform the experiment yourself and produce a different result. Good luck with that.
3) Provide a logical explanation for the result that does not invalidate Wood.
Or you can make jokes about toys and putting them away and similar attempts to distract everyone from the fact that you really don’t have the first clue as to what you are talking about.
(For all those that know the answer, please, let Greg answer)
davidmhoffer says (February 13, 2013 at 9:18 am): “(For all those that know the answer, please, let Greg answer)”
[through gritted teeth] Must…resist…temptation…urge…overwhelming…
I know! I know the answer! The glass stays cool because the Earth’s so-called “greenhouse” effect is zero or negligible just as R W Wood proved beyond question in 17447 when he pointed his TV remote at a salt shaker in a cardboard box and yelled “abracadabra!” and–look! a squirrel!
🙂
Gary Hladik;
R W Wood proved beyond question in 17447 when he pointed his TV remote at a salt shaker in a cardboard box and yelled “abracadabra!” and–look! a squirrel!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Omigod! Omigod! Was it alive? Was it Schroedinger’s squirrel? Did the cat transform to a squirrel? Was the transformation before/after the squirrel was alive/dead?
Well it has been some hours since I posed my question to Greg House, and still no credible response. Shall we wait until the morning? I think we should give him until at least then. The answer of course is rather trivial. The question I guess is which of three options Greg will choose:
a) admit he doesn’t know and can’t figure it out
b) provide an answer that demonstrates his “grasp” of the physics
c) not answer at all pretending that after repeatedly shooting his mouth off, this issue isn’t important enough for him to bother.
OK, I tried another experiment.
I put the remote control for the TV in the deep freeze. For an hour. While it was cooling off, I got a hair dryer and heated up the sensor on the TV. I mean really heated it up. You know that smell plastic makes when it starts to break down? That hot.
Then I got the remote control out of the freezer. Now I’m convinced by Greg House et al that it is impossible for energy to flow in any way shape or form from cold things to hot things, so there is no way the remote control could work at this point.
Someone forgot to tell the remote control. Or the TV. Or both.
How does that work Greg?
(all you reaching for your keyboards whilst laughing to yourselves….. please. Let Greg explain)
So still no answer from Greg House to either of my experiments above. Does he think by not answering here that he’s off the hook? That I’ll just forget about these and fail to bring them up the next time he posts his wood experiment and claims it means something?
Tell you what Greg, I’ll even give you some hints.
Experiment1: Stefan-Boltzmann Law
Experiment2: Planck’s Constant
Surely with those hints to go by, someone with as firm a grasp of physics as you ought to be able to figure out how to explain the results?