“Climate of Doubt” online live chat right now

UPDATE: PBS Admits to a “mistake” on my point about Dr. Edward Teller’s signature see below…

Live chat on now – join in  (ended, my two questions were ignored, as were many others.)

The producer and host of the “Climate of Doubt” Frontline program will be on a live chat at 1 p.m. ET. Good chance to challenge them on their omissions and misleading “reporting.”

Login here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/environment/climate-of-doubt/live-chat-2-p-m-et-thursday-inside-the-climate-wars/

UPDATE: Here are two messages placed side by side from the live chat showing that PBS has reacted to my point about Dr. Edward Teller’s signature. Catherine Upin is a co-writer of the program:

No mention as to the rationale of the “late stage production decision” only that it was a mistake.

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rk

well, as usual Anthony was right wrt to the blurred image…a “last minute’ decision…a Mistake. Oh, so sad.

Brad

I have a feeling they will “edit” the quetions.

katabasis1

Yeah questions are being pre-moderated. Mine has yet to appear (“What exactly is it you think the “scientific consensus position” is?”)

BargHumer

I have been watching the comments on this live chat and it gives the sense of a climate alarmist consolation chat. They seem a bit sad, and disappointed that it has come to this. The reason why new students are wary of going into study climate change is only seen in the light of fear, that the students are afraid of the way skeptics will expose their emails and so on, but not the possibility that these students realise that all is not well in their field of interest.

rk

no doubt they are getting large numbers of questions….so they have to filter most of the OUT.
this is pretty much a joke

I’m getting the sense that not many questions are being allowed through …. could be wrong, but so far the action seems on the light side …
.

rk

well,, i learned one thing Merchants of Doubt. was pretty influential for them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchants_of_Doubt

MieScatter

I agree there were some problems with the programme, but it only had an hour to explain things. I wish a larger variety of scientists had been interviewed, but we know that the vast majority of climate scientists would just say similar things to Hayhoe, Dessler, Schmidt etc.
Overall I thought it was very good with pretty clear coverage of the actual science behind some of the claims. But they could have talked about how 2 Hiroshima bombs worth of heat are being added to the oceans every second which clearly shows to me how ridiculous the ‘warming has stopped’ meme is.
However, I work in a climate science department so I guess my viewpoint is skewed. I wonder how well the facts came across to the general public?

So far, here’s the exchange btw Heartland and Hockenberry:
– – – – – – – – – – – –
Heartland Institute@HeartlandInstHey,
@JHockenberry. Why didn’t you even call us to ask us about our funding? Isn’t that what honorable journalists do? #ClimateOfDoubt
John Hockenberry:
Oh for heaven’s sake, folks at Heartland, that is absurd. I did not personally call you. Our team reached out twice for an interview with your head Joe Bast and was refused. We spoke extensively about funding sources with your colleague James Taylor who appeared in our film. We went to your conference and spoke with your participants. Would you like to discuss whether I am an honorable journalist or who is funding you? I’m confused. We made numerous contacts at Heartland. Say hello to Mr. Taylor for me and thank him once again for his candor.
Comment From Jim Lakely (Heartland)
John, I’m guessing James Taylor told you Exxon is not a big funder, stopped giving gifts in 2006 — two years before we held our first climate conference. If not, now you know.
John Hockenberry:
Mr. Lakely That’s exactly what we got from Taylor and reported it in our film. I guess the nuanced point that the money cut off more than 5 years ago preceded your conference but not your institute is worthy. But I dont’t think you are saying that “Heartland decided to refuse money from the fossile fuel industry after 2006.” If Exxon had offerred I wonder what you might have done? Taylor made it seem as though Heartland had no problem with its Exxon connection and would be happy if they were funders again.

march

Here’s my question…
Doubt and uncertainty are a natural part of science. It is simply incorrect to take a scientific result and ignore the errors that make up that result. Without an understanding and appreciation of the errors we end up with something Richard Feynman described as Cargo cult science. To what extent do you think so called “alarmists” are guilty of ignoring and deliberately manipulating scientific uncertainty in their mis-characterisation of the effects of man made climate change? How much damage has this cargo cult mentality done to the policy debate?

I asked whether they don’t consider the fact that Edward Teller and Freeman Dyson were amongst the signatories of the Oregon Petition news worthy, and if that is the reason why they obscured Edward Teller’s signature. The question was not posted to the chat.
To participate in the chat is a waste of time. They used the questions by the Heartland Institute to deride them further.

kcrucible

“Taylor made it seem as though Heartland had no problem with its Exxon connection and would be happy if they were funders again.”
And why not? The Climate Scientists don’t seem to have any moral qualms about taking money from Big Oil.

GeneDoc

World’s. Slowest. Chat. Completely absurd–why bother?

march

Here was my question…
Doubt and uncertainty are a natural part of science. It is simply incorrect to take a scientific result and ignore the errors that make up that result. Without an understanding and appreciation of the errors we end up with something Richard Feynman described as Cargo cult science. To what extent do you think so called “alarmists” are guilty of ignoring and deliberately manipulating scientific uncertainty in their mis-characterisation of the effects of man made climate change? How much damage has this cargo cult mentality done to the policy debate?

rk

wow…so there you go:
John Hockenberry:
Julie, I think the planet will answer that question. In many ways “Climate of Doubt” is the story of how difficult it is for a democracy to act in a crisis until the fire is in the stairwell. Coll says it well at the end of our story. Circumstances will move us forward if people on their own, can’t.

My question:
“As a UK sceptic I was recently invited to a meeting of the Royal Society of London on climate. Much to my surprise, when talking to those present, I found it very difficult to know who was and wasn’t a sceptic. I even found myself thinking: “I wish they had badges on so that I could tell”. In contrast on line the debate seems very partisan and I wonder whether you might comment as to whether this could be because the online debate is dominated by the US where it is heavily influenced by the partisan nature of the debate between republican and democratic.”

“The function of propaganda is, for example, not to weigh and ponder the rights of different people, but exclusively to emphasize the one right which it has set out to argue for. Its task is not to make an objective study of the truth, in so far as it favors the enemy, and then set it before the masses with academic fairness; its task is to serve our own right, always and unflinchingly.”
—Hitler, Mein Kampf, Chapter VI

Eric H.

Same BS. Tobacco = cancer deniers same as climate skeptics, funded by oil…scientific consensus…

katabasis1

What the hell? – So which sceptics has John Hockenberry been talking to? –
“The saddest thing about this story is that we heard mostly absolute certainty and dismissive confidence among our skeptic friends while it was our scientist friends were quick to say that doubt is how science is conducted, people questioning each other’s work all the time. The doubt of the scientists was always real but was always about how much we know about the planet and need to know not about the trend of global warming.
Their search for truth and quest to challenge each other’s findings was exploited as “debate” and “uncertainty” by people in the political world. In some ways the scientists didn’t have a chance in this battle… but that is my personal opinion and some of our scientists would not have agreed with me. “

So far, this is all we’ve heard from; does this seem like it’s dragging?
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
2:01 Elizabeth Kolbert:
2:02 FRONTLINE: Hi everyone
2:03 John Hockenberry:
2:03 Elizabeth Kolbert:
2:05 catherine upon:
2:06 John Hockenberry:
2:07 Elizabeth Kolbert:
2:08 John Hockenberry:
2:08 Comment From Ron Pate
2:11 Elizabeth Kolbert:
2:11 John Hockenberry:
2:13 John Hockenberry:
2:14 Catherine Upin:
2:16 Comment From Sean White
2:16 Elizabeth Kolbert:
2:16 John Hockenberry:
2:18 Comment From Tom Barney
2:18 John Hockenberry:
2:18 FRONTLINE:
2:21 Comment From Terry Fife
2:22 Catherine Upin:
2:23 John Hockenberry:
2:24 Elizabeth Kolbert:
2:25 Heartland Institute@HeartlandInstHey
2:26 Comment From Renee
2:28 John Hockenberry:
2:31 FRONTLINE:
2:34 Elizabeth Kolbert:
2:37 Comment From Jim Lakely (Heartland)
2:39 Comment From Julie Fanselow
2:41 John Hockenberry:
2:45 John Hockenberry:
2:46 Comment From Richard Miller, Ph.D.
2:49 Comment From Julie Fanselow
2:51 John Hockenberry:
2:52 Comment From Greg Goodknight
2:53 Catherine Upin:
2:53 FRONTLINE:
2:57 John Hockenberry:
– – – –
Has anybody submitted and not seen their name yet?
.

rk says:
October 25, 2012 at 11:43 am

well,, i learned one thing Merchants of Doubt. was pretty influential for them

It would have been better for them to read Robert Zubrin’s, “Merchants of Despair: Radical Environmentalists, Criminal Pseudo-Scientists, and the Fatal Cult of Antihumanism”: http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=Zubrin%20Merchants%20of%20Despair&index=blended&link_code=qs&sourceid=Mozilla-search&tag=mozilla-20

David A. Evans

It’s like being in church. No dissent is allowed, not real dissent anyway.
There was a sycophantic comment from one calling himself Richard Miller PhD. Don’t know if that was some sort of play on Richard Müller PhD.
Apparently, we sceptics are the certain ones, the consensus is full of doubt.

The saddest thing about this story is that we heard mostly absolute certainty and dismissive confidence among our skeptic friends while it was our scientist friends were quick to say that doubt is how science is conducted, people questioning each other’s work all the time. The doubt of the scientists was always real but was always about how much we know about the planet and need to know not about the trend of global warming.
Their search for truth and quest to challenge each other’s findings was exploited as “debate” and “uncertainty” by people in the political world. In some ways the scientists didn’t have a chance in this battle… but that is my personal opinion and some of our scientists would not have agreed with me.

Pick from that what you will, I was sick after the first time a actually read it.
DaveE.

Brad

John Hockenberry:
Greg,
The saddest thing about this story is that we heard mostly absolute certainty and dismissive confidence among our skeptic friends while it was our scientist friends were quick to say that doubt is how science is conducted, people questioning each other’s work all the time. The doubt of the scientists was always real but was always about how much we know about the planet and need to know not about the trend of global warming.
Their search for truth and quest to challenge each other’s findings was exploited as “debate” and “uncertainty” by people in the political world. In some ways the scientists didn’t have a chance in this battle… but that is my personal opinion and some of our scientists would not have agreed with me.
I then asked if he was implying all skeptics were not scientists.

David A. Evans

I’ve made several comments. Not seen one yet. They’ll pick one where I made some error.
DaveE.

rk

boy, Hackenberry really wants to get moving Forward on this stuff
Comment From Jay Currie
Perhaps, Julie, we wait until the uncertainties which are typical of a very young science are resolved before spending trillions of dollars on “solutions” which may do nothing to actually help (assuming help is needed).
3:05
John Hockenberry:
3:03
Jay what would you do besides another study?
Me:
yeah, Move On guys…the Science is Settled, the only thing left is to Save the World

A few more commenters have been allowed to trickle in:
– – – – – – – – – – – –
3:00 FRONTLINE:
3:01 John Hockenberry:
3:01 Elizabeth Kolbert:
3:02 Catherine Upin:
3:05 Comment From Jay Currie
3:05 John Hockenberry:
3:07 Comment From Gary Anderson

Bruckner8

This chat is pointless. I wish I were in the “moderation room” watching them decide how/when things get posted. I’m done.

THE END:
– – – – – – – – – – –
3:08 John Hockenberry: USA not the only one. China has an institutional push-back on global warming related to the perception that it is a ruse for the industrialized world to hold China back.
3:10 John Hockenberry: Thanks everyone, I’ve got to go interview someone about the sensitivity of language in electoral politics.
see you next time
– – – – – – – – – – –

David A. Evans

Was that it?
DaveE.

Farcical…

DAV

That was a waste of time

rk

I actually think that the Teller thing wouldn’t have made any difference. One of the threads of the Merchants of Doubt appears to originate with Anti-Communism…Teller was very anti-communist. So I’m sure to these guys he’s the thread that proves their story.
the Anti-communist nuts had to go somewhere after the fall of the Soviets…so they went to the various Anti-eco-projects that were going on….i.e. they are market Fundamentalists who are reactionaries

David A. Evans

FRONTLINE:
We’re all out time for today. Thanks so much for all the great questions everyone. As always, we wish we could have gotten to more of them

Would have been nice if they could have got to some of them.
DaveE.

JJ

MieScatter says:
I wish a larger variety of scientists had been interviewed, but we know that the vast majority of climate scientists would just say similar things to Hayhoe, Dessler, Schmidt etc.

No, we don’t know that. Among the reasons we shall never find out, is that Hayhoe, Dessler, Schmidt etc are the ones that get the airtime. That is their designated role in the propaganda effort.
But they could have talked about how 2 Hiroshima bombs worth of heat are being added to the oceans every second which …
… is another content free warmist talking point, that in no way demonstrates the validity of the ‘global warming’ conjecture. When do you think an honest examination of that topic will make it to the MSM? You know, hypothesis testing, falsifyability criteria, comparison of predictions to observations, assessment of error bands, etc, etc, etc?
<i…. clearly shows to me how ridiculous the ‘warming has stopped’ meme is.
The ‘warming is stopped’ meme rests on precisely the same metric as the ‘global warming is going to kill us all’ meme. Too bad that metric it isn’t going your way right now, and hasn’t for nearly two decades. You might have picked a more robust parameter on which to base your fairy tale, but then there wasn’t one, was there?
I wonder how well the facts came across to the general public?
Yes, the message is the matter, is it not?

The funny part is that John actually addressed a comment I made without the comment itself appearing…snort!

Mr A. O'Brien

Jim,
I asked a question as to what number actually represents “97 percent of climate scientists” and it went out at 1903 UT but it never appeared.

Greg Goodknight

This is the “Greg” that got through with a partial “Did any of the climate scientists you chatted with express any doubt?” but they deleted the preface to it, this James Lovelock quote,
“”The great climate science centres around the world are more than well aware how weak their science is. If you talk to them privately they’re scared stiff of the fact that they don’t really know what the clouds and the aerosols are doing. They could be absolutely running the show. We haven’t got the physics worked out yet.”
They also didn’t let a followup through, more of the Lovelock quote: “One of the chiefs once said to me that he agreed that they should include the biology in their models, but he said they hadn’t got the physics right yet and it would be five years before they do. So why on earth are the politicians spending a fortune of our money when we can least afford it on doing things to prevent events 50 years from now? They’ve employed scientists to tell them what they want to hear.”
It’s sad to see PBS and propagandists like Hockenberry working in real-time.

David A. Evans

One of your comments did appear Jay but the non-answer was laughable.
DaveE.

Mike Bromley the Canucklehead

Elizabeth Kolbert: I think one of the things that’s important to note is that scientists have understood the relationship between greenhouse gases and climate since the 1850’s. Svante Arrhenius, a Nobel Prize winning chemist, did the first calculations of what increasing CO2 levels would do to the climate in the 1890’s. The idea that this is new or untested science is basically ludicrous. The only sense in which there is uncertainty is that the earth is a complicated place and so the effects of warming will be complex. But that the planet will warm — and already has — is really not debatable at this point.
That’s about as ludicrous a response as can be expected from “guest questioner” Elizabeth Kolbert. She basically says that climate science put the cart before the horse, by accepting Arrhenius’ thesis and carrying forth to look for its effects in the atmosphere. Not to mention playing the Nobel card. This followed by an equivocation between warming and debate…sullied by the erroneous ‘”But that the planet WILL warm”….we know that, EK. It has, will, whatever. It will also cool, has, whatever.
Thanks for your enlightening drivel.

Left about 15 questions and 5 comments, none of which showed up at all. I’m guessing that few people from the climate changers showed up.

RHS

WRT to funding, anyone ask why WWF gets more Big Oil Money than all the sceptics combined? They have to raise (because they spend) about 1 Million USD a day. Thats a lot of cash!

Ben

I asked about the comfort level relying on “Merchants of doubt” when no evidence of its claims has ever been seen.
I asked about how many of the skeptics they spoke with actually denied that CO2 is a green house gas and could cause some warming
I asked if anyone gave them evidence of a “well funded denial machine” that is even with in an order of magnitude of the funding from NGO’s and Government the mainstream climate community receives.
Of course nothing got into chat Bleh.

Bob Koss

I asked why several questions rattled off by Hockenberry to Fred SInger were left on the cutting room floor by cutting away to Andrew Dessler after Singer said he would happily respond.
My question was also left on the cutting room floor. Disgusting.

David A. Evans

I think what we saw here was, they got a lot of comments & questions they couldn’t answer so they just didn’t post them and talked amongst themselves.
DaveE.

Chris B

The “Chat” felt like 1984.
Big Brother John word-smithing consensus, with lieutenants at his side.

GlynnMhor

Miescatter suggests: “… 2 Hiroshima bombs worth of heat are being added to the oceans every second…”
I have to wonder why you believe that.
Certainly the oceans themselves are not expressing, in the form of increased temperatures, anything like that amount of increased heat.

ggoodknight

I think WordPress may have swallowed a Reply due to machinations in ‘login hell’. I reproduce it here, apologies if it’s a duplicate:
I’m the Greg Goodknight that got through with “Did any of the climate scientists you chatted with express any doubt?” but they deleted the preface to it, the James Lovelock statement that
“”The great climate science centres around the world are more than well aware how weak their science is. If you talk to them privately they’re scared stiff of the fact that they don’t really know what the clouds and the aerosols are doing. They could be absolutely running the show. We haven’t got the physics worked out yet.”
They also deleted a continuation of the Lovelock quote,
“One of the chiefs once said to me that he agreed that they should include the biology in their models, but he said they hadn’t got the physics right yet and it would be five years before they do. So why on earth are the politicians spending a fortune of our money when we can least afford it on doing things to prevent events 50 years from now? They’ve employed scientists to tell them what they want to hear.”
It was sad to see PBS and the propagandist Hockenberry working in real time. This is how one manufactures a “consensus”.

Snotrocket

Catherine Upin: “Our focus was on the requirements for signing the petition.”
Such a pity they could not also focus the darn camera!! What a dissembler!

Ben

Do you think any of the questions even made them doubt themselves or think to follow up on something? I know when i am asked things I do not have an answer to I go looking when I have a chance, but that is one reason I ended up here in the first place….

Late to chat

Watching Climate of Doubt now and I want to modify my survey response to YES…I viewed the climate change debate to be based scientific research and did not realize how much the disrespectful monikers “skeptic”, “denier”, “doubter”, “dissenter”,”radical” etc. etc.cloud the debate of science.