From the The Washington Times – By Willie Soon and William M. Briggs
Scientists have been studying solar influences on the climate for more than 5,000 years.
Chinese imperial astronomers kept detailed sunspot records. They noticed that more sunspots meant warmer weather. In 1801, the celebrated astronomer William Herschel (discoverer of the planet Uranus) observed that when there were fewer spots, the price of wheat soared. He surmised that less light and heat from the sun resulted in reduced harvests.
Earlier last month, professor Richard Muller of the University of California-Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature (BEST) project announced that in the project’s newly constructed global land temperature record, “no component that matches solar activity” was related to temperature. Instead, Mr. Muller said carbon dioxide controlled temperature.
Could it really be true that solar radiation — which supplies Earth with the energy that drives our climate and which, when it has varied, has caused the climate to shift over the ages — is no longer the principal influence on climate change?
Consider the accompanying chart. It shows some rather surprising relationships between solar radiation and daytime high temperatures taken directly from Berkeley’s BEST project. The remarkable nature of these series is that these tight relationships can be shown to hold from areas as large as the United States.
This new sun-climate relationship picture may be telling us that the way our sun cools and warms the Earth is largely through the penetration of incoming solar radiation in regions with cloudless skies. Recent work by National Center for Atmospheric Research senior scientists Harry van Loon and Gerald Meehl place strong emphasis on this physical point and argue that the use of daytime high temperatures is the most appropriate test of the solar-radiation-surface-temperature connection hypothesis. All previous sun-climate studies have included the complicated nighttime temperature records while the sun is not shining.
Read more: SOON AND BRIGGS: Global-warming fanatics take note – Washington Times

justthefacts said
Estimates of trends in the vertical distribution of ozone, using ground-based data, suggest that ozone decreased in the middle and upper stratosphere by 23 per cent in the period 1970 to 1980
Henry says
This was the right in the middle of the warming period 1950-1995 (looking at energy-in: maxima). My ozone data suggest a total drop of ca. 10% over the whole of the period 1950-1995. On average over that period it is a lot lower than that, of course. Trenberth thinks that ozone absorbs (back radiates, mostly) about 25% of all that is being absorbed (back radiated).
Assuming all this figures are correct, more or less, then it looks to me that ozone could be a factor, but probably, like you suggest in your post, not the only factor.There might be a few other chemical reactions going on up there on top that also cause more re-radiation.
Leif Svalgaard says
The character dealing with you is one of the kind ones, always helpful and willing to educate.
Henry says
Yes, true, that is the character we all love and appreciate. The others, not so much, especially the ones that come here to hi-jack this thread.
HenryP says:
September 12, 2012 at 12:33 pm
Henry@Phil.
Hi Phil. ! Where did you come from?
Same place as always. When I see such bad errors in science (particularly Phys Chem) I post corrections in case someone might actually think it’s true.
It seems to me you were ordered here?
As can be seen in your blog you think lots of things that aren’t true.
Last time we discussed things we agreed to disagree as it appeared not possible for you to agree with me
on what I wrote here,
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2011/08/11/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011/
which, according to me, is entirely true.
It certainly isn’t possible for me (or anyone else with an education in chemistry) to agree with what you wrote there as it’s completely wrong. Read a basic undergraduate text on Physical Chemistry or Molecular Spectroscopy to confirm that. (Barrow is a good one)
If you want to start discussing this again, you are so welcome, but shall we do that on my own blog?
No since you raised it here I’ll discuss it here. Your ideas about how molecules interact with molecules is completely wrong, they don’t behave like ‘little mirrors’, in the specific case of ozone they’re even worse because the ozone molecule ceases to exist once it absorbs the UV photon.
stefanthedenier says:
September 12, 2012 at 6:12 pm
Phil. says: ”As you have been told before this is impossible! When an O3 molecule absorbs a photon of UV light (peak absorption at 0.25μm) it photodissociates i.e. it falls apart into an O2 molecule and an oxygen atom, there is no O3 molecule to re-radiate!”
Phil, ozone doesn’t ”absorb” sunlight – ozone is opaque, same as oxygen. 2] ozone (O3) is not a molecule, but an isotope.
Three mistakes in one line! Ozone and Oxygen both absorb UV from the sun. Ozone is a molecule consisting of three oxygen atoms. Isotopes of Oxygen are O16, O17 & O18, all have 8 protons and 8, 9 & 10 neutrons respectively. You may be confusing isotope with the term allotrope which refers to the different molecular configurations of the element, namely: dioxygen, O2 and ozone, O3.
As oxygen (O2) by convection is cooling the planet. When turned into ozone -makes larger volume than independent oxygen atoms -> goes above the troposphere, into the stratosphere and just spins there; without any contribution. They were misleading about ozone, for good reason.
This and what follows it is such nonsense that it’s impossible to correct! To coin a phrase, “It’s not even wrong”.
HenryP says:
September 13, 2012 at 9:30 am
“The character dealing with you is one of the kind ones, always helpful and willing to educate.”
Yes, true, that is the character we all love and appreciate.
Since you agree that you love the one that deals with you, you should be content.
Phil. says:
September 13, 2012 at 9:43 am
No since you raised it here I’ll discuss it here. Your ideas about how molecules interact with molecules is completely wrong,
Typo Correction: Should be “molecules interact with light”.
😉
CHALLENGE TO ALL COMMENTERS, TO FIND BETTER ANSWERS
Lets give your best shot; see if you can give better answers to those questions, it’s an official challenge:
Q: do you know that: oxygen + nitrogen are 998999ppm in the troposphere, CO2 only 260-400ppm? Q: do you know that O+N expand /shrink INSTANTLY in change of temperature? Q: do you know that: where they expand upwards; on the edge of the troposphere is minus – 90⁰C? Q: why O+N expand more, when warmed by 5⁰C, than when warmed by 2⁰C? A: when warmed by 5⁰C, they need to go further up (increase the volume of troposphere) to intercept more extra coldness, to equalize. Q: if O+N are cooled after 10minutes to the previous temperature, why they don’t stay expanded another 5 minutes extra? A: not to intercept too much extra coldness, to prevent too much cooling. A2: they stay expanded precisely as long as they are warmer – not one second more or less – that’s how they regulate to be same warmth units overall in the troposphere, every hour of every year and millenia!
Q: do you know that: if troposphere warms up by 2⁰C extra – troposphere expands up into the stratosphere by 1km, how much extra coldness is there to intercept, and swap it for the extra heat? A: expansion is INSTANT – intercepts extra appropriate coldness to counteract the extra heat in 3,5 seconds -> that extra coldness falls to the ground in minutes Q: if O+N are warmed extra for 30minutes, WHY they don’t shrink after 15minutes, or after one day? A: if O+N after cooled to previous temperature; stayed expanded for a whole day extra -> they would have redirected enough extra coldness, to freeze all the tropical rivers / lakes.
Q: can CO2 of 260-400ppm prevent oxygen + nitrogen of 998999ppm of expanding when they warm up? A: O+N when warmed extra – they expand through the walls of a hi-tensile hand-grenade. Q: do you believe in the laws of physics, or in IPCC and the Warmist cult? The laws of physics say: part of the troposphere can get colder than normal – only when other part gets warmer than normal. B] if the WHOLE troposphere gets colder -> air shrinks -> releases LESS heat – > retains more heat, and equalizes in a jiffy. C] both hemispheres cannot get warmer simultaneously for more than few minutes – if they doo -> troposphere expands extra -> intercepts extra coldness and equalizes in a jiffy. Q: do the O+N wait to warm up by 2-3⁰C, before they start expanding; or expand INSTANTLY, when they warm up by 0,000001⁰C? My formula: EH>AE>EHR (Extra Heat >Atmosphere Expands >Extra Heat Releases) Tons of extra CORRECT proofs, why I am a GLOBAL warming Infidel. I believe in climatic changes; big and small – I know that human can improve the climate /to a degree; because water controls climate = human can control water, to a degree. All the lunacy about confusing climatic changes with the PHONT GLOBAL warmings, is lunacy; waste of time and billions of $$$
Phil. September 13, 2012 at 9:59 am
Phil, I pointed out that: ozone is irrelevant for climate and global temp, so you don’t waste time on empty talk. I’ve just posted a comment here (recorded as 5:10pm, (not local time) as a challenge about the most important matters in the whole agenda. Take the challenge and make things more interesting – instead of childish irrelevant. Be a good sport.
P.s. if you read the few treads of different posts I provided on this post – you will start using the most important: ”common sense” which is missing in the whole debate. I.e. small example: you wouldn’t brag about oxygen / ozone absorption of UV / sunlight. UV goes trough 11km thickness of oxygen and burns on the ground (I leave close to the equator) but I just put a few microns thick black plastic, to protect my bike from the UV and it works, what 11km of oxygen can’t do.
2] molecule for me is compound of different elements. 3] what sunlight / heat molecules intercept high up; NEVER is re-radiated down! between the dirty cloud (CO2) + H2O cloud and the ground is kilometers of oxygen & nitrogen, as perfect insulators. I’m pointing the empty / destructive talk. They slow down warming on the ground during the day -”slow cooling” at night. That is NOT a greenhouse effect, but shade-clot affect. If you people stop picking on my misspellings and limited English – read my posts and we can have interesting arguments about things that matter.
Darren Potter says: ”Start checking what you think you know. The Ice Age was a global event, recent work has reaffirmed that. Granted, S/H was warmer than N/H, but both where colder during the Ice Age”
Hi Darren, you must belong to Ian Plimer’s Zombies. Darren, ”recent work” you are referring is: ”hiding the Skeptic’s skeletons in their closed” – it suits the Warmist -> they don’t complain. That’s how the ”Fake Skeptics” are doing the Warmist’ dirty job. b] that’s why I’ve written that post. Not because I’m bad person – but because: ‘Skeptics cannot win against one Warmist lie, by using 100 of their lies; even though Skeptics are on the positive side. It’s the Skeptic’s ego, that makes the Warmist to flourish and rob billions of $$. Warmist cannot have one single honest proof, because is NO such a thing as a ”GLOBAL” warming. Please read about the ”challenge comment” i posted here as on 5:10pm” to see ”the common sense LAWS OF PHYSICS” you will see that I have the most solid proofs – not the Pagan childish fairy-tales you Fakes use.
If somebody has being teaching / brainwashing you that: if is colder imprint from the past in Europe, they know that was same in Oceania… is the precursor of all evil. In Europe can be warmer by 10C – needs to be colder by 0,5C in Oceania, to be equal – because Oceania is 20 time larger. Darren, if I didn’t have real / solid proofs; with my limited English vocabulary, I would have never got involved in the debate, trust me. I’m on your side – you are shooting yourself in the foot with a machine-gun, by using / comparing real facts, with your outdated Pagan beliefs
Please read my posts I left treads on this post – it will be like turning the lights on for you. Unless your ego is more important to you than the outcome. I had discussions on numerous occasions with ”phony Skeptics” b] I know the Pagan version. Be fair to yourself; read my real proofs; see them as ”soft target” But have in mind that: closed mind is as closed parashoot… b]The more you know, the more you are worth, don’t be scared. c] people are reading my book, and the pressure will come from the street. d] You cannot grasp on the fairy-tales for long, people on the street are getting impassioned – they see that is no GLOBAL warming = the Fakes will become a jock.
It’s also ”documented” that: storks are bringing the babies; but cannot control human overpopulation, by killing the storks. That makes the gullible Skeptics more guilty than the real offenders, the Warmist. Challenge is in front of you; unless you Fake Skeptics can abolish the laws of physics = you are WRONG and blinded by your ego. Asking: ”what kind of laws of physics” when is presented to you, doesn’t change the truth and reality. Skeptic’s skeletons in their closed are starting to stink more and more – Warmist know that Skeptic’s fairy-tales are wrong – they have built their castle on the top of the Pagan outdated childish beliefs; and are exploiting it skilfully. Are you scared from a challenge?! Don’t say that I haven’t presented the ”real proofs, facts and formulas” If you run-away; will give you bigger and bigger insomnia. Darren, face the reality, or leave in shame!!! Warmist named you ”Skeptics” because it suits them; even though truckloads of phony GLOBAL warmings are pouring out of your ears. Do you really think that Hansen doesn’t know about the Fake’s ”PHONY” proofs? That’s why they declared that ”science is settled” GET THE REAL PROOFS, DARREN !!!
Leif Svalgaard says: September 13, 2012 at 1:08 am
Science is always imbued with healthy skepticism. The trick is to avoid being paralyzed by said skepticism.
Well is seems that in the cases of CFCs and CO2, there were no problems in performing that trick. Mitigation efforts appear to have begun before the causes of the Antarctic ozone hole and Global Warming were well established.
Just The Facts says:
September 13, 2012 at 9:16 pm
Well it seems that in the cases of CFCs and CO2, there were no problems in performing that trick. Mitigation efforts appear to have begun before the causes of the Antarctic ozone hole and Global Warming were well established.
Well it seems that in the case of CFCs those efforts have payed off.
Leif Svalgaard says: September 11, 2012 at 10:57 pm
The timing of the beginning of the long, slow recovery suggests to me that the ban on some man-made halocarbon refrigerants has been working.
Do you have any sense of what the ozone hole might recover to, e.g. what the natural ozone hole size and ozone content might be?
Polar Vortices have been documented on Venus;
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/09/venus-polar-vortex/
Mars;
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/sixthmars2003/pdf/3248.pdf
Jupiter
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/12mar_darkspot/
Saturn;
http://www.windows2universe.org/saturn/atmosphere/south_polar_vortex.html
and Saturn’s Moon Titan;
http://www.space.com/16520-saturn-s-moon-titan-sports-polar-vortex-video.html
and Neptune:
http://www.space.com/8104-odd-cloud-neptune-splitting.html
Further background on early ozone measurements:
Just The Facts says:
September 13, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Do you have any sense of what the ozone hole might recover to, e.g. what the natural ozone hole size and ozone content might be?
I must defer to Signe’s article in Nature: “Expectations for ozone levels near the end of this century: A question often asked is ‘will ozone return to pre-1980 levels, and if so, when?’ Because many of the factors influencing ozone levels are also changing, even if all anthropogenic ozone-depleting substances were removed from the atmosphere, ozone levels might not stabilize at pre-1980 levels. Total column ozone, carbon dioxide emissions, stratospheric temperatures and circulation patterns are closely linked, and changes in one of these variables can affect the others. By the end of the century, provided the concentrations of ozone-depleting substances decrease, ozone levels are expected to be dominated by temperature, atmospheric dynamics and the abundances of trace gases, including water vapour, methane and N2O. For example, future growth in N2O, due in part to increased fertilizer production, could lead to decreases in ozone.”
http://www.leif.org/EOS/Nature/nature04746-Ozone-Recovery-Signe.pdf
Just The Facts says:
September 13, 2012 at 9:41 pm
Polar Vortices have been documented on Venus, etc
The polar vortices [and their spring breakdown] on Earth are probably driving some of the shorter-term changes in ozone, rather than the other way around.
Just The Facts says:
September 13, 2012 at 9:43 pm
Further background on early ozone measurements
Signe’s paper has lots of good background references too. Worth a look.
Déjà vu
Time
Feb 17, 1992
Henry@justthefacts
I have noted from my own results that maxima rose much stronger in the SH than the NH during the warming period 1950-1995 (energy-in) but this did not translate into any appreciable increase in means in the SH. From that, I concluded that most of the (extra) heat went into the SH oceans and is then taken by currents and weather systems to the NH where it warmed a lot more. What you are suggesting in your last posts is that ozone loss was a lot stronger in the SH, which would explain my results of much higher rising maxima in the SH. That means that my ozone results from the Swiss alps would probably be the wrong ones to quote.
It explains very neatly what I have been saying all along: the lack of ozone allows more high energy from the sun in, which is easily absorbed by the water (because it absorbs in the UV) and converted to heat (because there is a lot of mass).
All this being true and verifiable, we should shortly see a strong recovery in ozone over the SH and a decrease in the ozone hole. In fact, a noticable decrease in the ozone hole should already be evident since the start of the cooling period (1995-2039)
http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=first%20signs%20of%20ozone-hole%20recovery%20spotted%20&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Fnews%2F2011%2F110516%2Ffull%2Fnews.2011.293.html&ei=UtBSUNeoCouFhQfnqoCQDw&usg=AFQjCNFugVYkaC6RIjaZGUxmhcs9mvG8JQ
here comes ths big freeze….
Just The Facts says:
September 13, 2012 at 9:43 pm
“Further background on early ozone measurements:”
JTF, at JunkScience I found these posts:
http://junksciencearchive.com/Ozone/ozone_seasonal.html
http://junkscience.com/2012/04/08/exclusive-british-polar-research-in-crisis/
“In a paper titled “Forty Years’ Research on Atmospheric Ozone at Oxford: A History” (Applied Optics, March 1968), Dobson described an ozone monitoring program that began at Halley Bay in 1956.
When the data began to arrive, “the values in September and October 1956 were about 150 [Dobson] units lower than expected. … In November the ozone values suddenly jumped up to those expected. …”
These seem to be in contradiction with your post above?
Phil. says:September 13, 2012 at 9:59 am
Com on Phil, you are ducking for cover… Did you realize that: the ”self adjusting mechanism” by O&N; to be overall SAME temp in the troposphere, every day of every day and millenia?! Therefore, you guys don’t have a case. My challenge above on (sept.13 at 5:10pm) separates men from the toddlers. that self adjusting is trillion times more powerful, than your ozone influence. They give you the superficial ozone influence, as to children; to play on the sandpit. What ozone & oxygen ”absorb” sunlight – is not worth writing home about.
2] CO2 in the atmosphere, ABSORBS 1000times more sunlight than your ozone, not to come to the ground – what sunlight is absorbed high up (where cooling is much more efficient)- never comes to the ground. 3] how come less ozone is bad, but less CO2 is good? Which clown told you that: 150y ago was the best amount of CO2 for trees and crops?! 4] Sincere person wouldn’t be scared / ashamed from real proofs! If you panicked from my first challenge – so does everybody that believes in the misleading, outdated mythology. I have 100 challenges – broaden your knowledge and make the debate interesting; instead of constantly parroting what IPCC says, Phil. Are you really scared from the correct knowledge of an illiterate person? Phil, be fair to yourself, and learn the CORRECT versions. So you can learn to separate facts from fiction. Your empty talk on superficial things, will not change the relevant, the truth, the real facts. You can run away from the truth / reality; but the truth is just a little bit faster than you. Cheers!
Lars P.September 14, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Lars, ozone has as much influence on the GLOBAL temperature; as much as the amount of Paris Hilton’s pubic hair – zero, zilch! Only, talking about ozone, is more boring. My ”open challenge comment” above, proves what regulates the OVERALL temp in the atmosphere; to be always the same. There are 1000 more genuine proofs, on my blog. Running away from a challenge is; ”admission” that: you don’t trust in what you preach.
Leif Svalgaard says: September 13, 2012 at 9:54 pm
I must defer to Signe’s article in Nature: “Expectations for ozone levels near the end of this century: A question often asked is ‘will ozone return to pre-1980 levels, and if so, when?’ Because many of the factors influencing ozone levels are also changing, even if all anthropogenic ozone-depleting substances were removed from the atmosphere, ozone levels might not stabilize at pre-1980 levels. Total column ozone, carbon dioxide emissions, stratospheric temperatures and circulation patterns are closely linked, and changes in one of these variables can affect the others. By the end of the century, provided the concentrations of ozone-depleting substances decrease, ozone levels are expected to be dominated by temperature, atmospheric dynamics and the abundances of trace gases, including water vapour, methane and N2O. For example, future growth in N2O, due in part to increased fertilizer production, could lead to decreases in ozone.”
http://www.leif.org/EOS/Nature/nature04746-Ozone-Recovery-Signe.pdf
I am not clear on what these “pre-1980 levels” are. Do you think that they referring to the TOMS data from 1979? i.e. “Total column ozone from 1979 through the end of 2005 from a merged TOMS/SBUV(/2) satellite data set (version 8).”
The polar vortices [and their spring breakdown] on Earth are probably driving some of the shorter-term changes in ozone, rather than the other way around.
I think this is a reasonable likelihood, i.e. per Signe;
I think the question is what is “shorter-term” when you have 33 years of data? Wouldn’t the fact that;
indicate that later vortex breakdown may have had a significant influence on ozone levels during the 1980s and 1990s?
Leif Svalgaard says: September 13, 2012 at 9:57 pm
Signe’s paper has lots of good background references too. Worth a look.
Yes, they seem to indicate that there is still a tremendous amount of uncertainty in this area, e.g.:
It is thus confusing, given the tremendous uncertainty, that the first sentence of Signe’s paper begins with;
It appears that the only evidence presented to support this assertion is;
The three references cited within are;
Here is the abstract for Farman, J., Gardiner, B. & Shanklin, J. Large losses of total ozone in Antarctica reveal seasonal ClOx/NOx interaction;
Here is the abstract for Solomon, S., Garcia, R. R., Rowland, F. S. & Wuebbles, D. J. On the depletion of Antarctic ozone;
Here is the abstract for Staehelin, J., Harris, N. R. P., Appenzeller, C. & Eberhard, J. Ozone trends: A review;
Is the “proof that the Antarctic ozone hole was caused by humans” asserted within Signe’s paper based upon Staehelin’s assertion that “The most severe consequence of the anthropogenic release of ozone-depleting substances is the ‘Antarctic ozone hole.'”?
henry@larsp
….skeptics primarily published in non-peer-reviewed newspapers, magazines, books, and think tank publications. Publications that do not undergo peer-review are frequently filled with factual errors, distortions, and opinionated statements that greatly confuse the public on issues where there is no scientific uncertainty. For example, numerous critics of the ozone hole discovery (e.g., Singer, 1989, Bailey, 1993; Bast et. al., 1994) claimed that Professor G.M.B. Dobson had measured an ozone hole in 1956 in the Antarctic, and thus an Antarctic ozone hole was a normal natural occurrence. This myth arose from a misinterpretation of an out-of-context quotation from a review article (Dobson, 1968), where he mentioned that when springtime ozone levels over Halley Bay were first measured, he was surprised to find that they were about 150 Dobson Units below springtime levels in the Arctic. The skeptics repeatedly refer to “an ozone hole 150 Dobson Units below normal” that was discovered in 1957, when in fact the levels discovered in 1957 were normal for Antarctica. A trip to the British Antarctic Survey’s web site will confirm that no such ozone hole was measured in the 1950s. Another myth the skeptics repeat states that a French scientist found an Antarctic ozone hole in 1958 (Bailey, 1993). There were measurements in 1958 that found large ozone loss in the Antarctic, but these measurement have been found to be false, due to instrument error. A study in Science magazine (Newman, 1994) concluded, “There is no credible evidence for an ozone hole in 1958.”
To be fair, environmentalists were also guilty of using discredited myths to support their positions. For example, in 1992, The New York Times reported ozone depletion over southern Chile had caused “an increase in Twilight Zone-type reports of sheep and rabbits with cataracts” (Nash, 1992). The story was repeated in many places, including the July 1, 1993 showing of ABC’s Prime Time Live. Al Gore’s book, Earth in the Balance, repeated the myth, stating: “In Patagonia, hunters now report finding blind rabbits; fishermen catch blind salmon” (Gore, 1992). A group at Johns Hopkins has investigated the evidence and attributed the cases of sheep blindness to a local infection (“pink eye”) (Pearce, 1993).
….
and the controversy still rages on……