A response to Dr. Paul Bain's use of 'denier' in the scientific literature

Note: This will be the top post for a day or two, new posts will appear below this one.

Readers may recall my original post, Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature. followed by  Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of “Denier” Term (with thanks to Jo Nova, be sure to bookmark and visit her site) Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University,  commenting as rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here in that thread. As commenter REP put it in the update: It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. I would say, it is likely the best response I’ve ever seen on the use of the “denier” term, not to mention the CAGW issue in general. Thus, I’ve elevated it a full post. Please share the link to this post widely.  – Anthony

Dr. Robert G. Brown writes:

The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.

This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?

For shame.

Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.

By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.

Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.

The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!

Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.

There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.

Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.

This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.

The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.

These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.

The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:

http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm

In particular, I quote:

For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a

friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.” He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.

One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish both kinds of results.

I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government

advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether

drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it

would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a

result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re

being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.

Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?

And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!

Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.

Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.

For shame.

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Markus Fitzhenry
June 23, 2012 8:02 pm

Thanks Dr. Robert G. Brown,
A great tome for dissemination and adaption for use in many conversations during this struggle of modern civilisation.

theduke
June 23, 2012 8:07 pm

Greg House 6:35:
What is your problem? Brown uses quotation marks in that passage and he’s quoting Singer. Do you have a problem with Singer also? If so, you are presuming that a very learned man is your intellectual inferior on these issues. I think that is both close-minded and short-sighted.
Maybe you are a “denier” in the sense that you deny any truth is possible except your own.
Skepticism is what it is. I don’t think you are a skeptic. You’ve settled on a fixed system of belief, no GHE, no AGW, and that’s it. There can be no other truth for you and that is unfortunate.
As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think the final truth has been discovered on either the GHE or AGW. Both theories are still at minimum plausible and some would say they are verifiable. I’m skeptical that they have been verified myself. But I don’t presume to know all there is to know.
The science is evolving and you may be proven correct in your beliefs some day. Until that time, show some tolerance for opposing viewpoints.

June 23, 2012 8:11 pm

davidmhoffer says:
June 23, 2012 at 3:44 pm
“Go challenge a warmist to publicly debate about science. Watch what happens. Experience first hand the result. Maybe that will knock some sense into you.”
This is a good idea, and should be repeated time and time again. Offer to debate the science. they will decline every time. We should be relentless on this point. It only exposes what cowards they are.

JimF
June 23, 2012 8:13 pm

Dr. Brown: Thank you. That may be both the best defense of the scientific method and synoptic overview of the issues of understanding the Earth’s climate I have ever read. Your comments, and those of many others, to the initial post are simply scintillating. Bravo.

Greg House
June 23, 2012 8:52 pm

theduke says:
June 23, 2012 at 8:07 pm
Greg House 6:35:
What is your problem? Brown uses quotation marks in that passage and he’s quoting Singer.
=====================================================
No, this is not true, these are his own words: “I absolutely agree with this. Skeptics need to be just as aggressive at policing, and schooling as necessary, “deniers” as they are doing the same with “warmists”.”

old bloke in Perth Australia
June 23, 2012 9:01 pm

Given that the CAGW theory is a religion rather than a science, I think terms such as Agnostic for Skeptic, and Atheist or Infidel for Denier would be more appropriate. I have heard CAGW proponents argue that their theory should not be dependant on empirical science, instead their intuition has more weight – they use the term “post-modern science”.
I was a CAGW Agnostic as I couldn’t find any scientific support for CO2 retaining heat, nor could I find any breakdown of the proportions of naturally occuring vs. “man-made” CO2 in the atmosphere. Man Made CO2 is a nonsence of course, man doesn’t make it (apart from when we exhale), man releases it when burning fossil fuels. I believe however that the greatest percentage of atmospheric CO2 occurs naturally from the oceans.
My CAGW “Agnostic” position has changed over the years, and I probably would now fall into the CAGW Infidel camp. This migration of position has come about through the fact that no global warming has occured in the past 15 years despite the fact that China is firing up a new coal-fired power station every week, and India is doing the same every month. As all these extra power stations are all releasing more CO2 into the atmosphere there should have been some measurable increase in global temperatures over time, but there’s none.
There’s also no sea level rises, no melting of the Himalayan glaciers, and the polar bears are all happy chappies. Therefore, you can call me a CAGW Infidel, an Infidel and proud of it.

June 23, 2012 9:20 pm

old bloke in Perth,
I like it. I am a CO2=CAGW infidel. And a CO2=AGW agnostic. Given verifiable evidence, I could be persuaded that CO2=AGW, even though I suspect any effect is minuscule. But CO2=CAGW? Burn me at the stake!

AJB
June 23, 2012 9:26 pm

Myrrh says, June 23, 2012 at 5:09 pm

Oh jolly dee, but where is this easily-replicable and frequently-replicated measurements first performed by Tyndall?

Pages 13 to 16.

wayne Job
June 23, 2012 9:42 pm

Thank you Dr Brown,
In the face of the consensus that has caused much pain to those who dare dissent you have showed true courage. The failure of the AGW scientists to prove their theory or show their workings is slowly but inexorably leading to their downfall.
They have thus far failed to show the courage of their convictions by allowing open scientific debate, it is their baby and they are meant to prove their theory, sadly it seems that scientists outside this cabal must prove or disprove it for them.
Since climategate many scientists have been alerted to the lack of scientific rigor in all things AGW the I.P.C.C especially, the output of that body is pure political UN non sense.
Thank you again Dr Brown your elegant writing is almost poetry.

AJB
June 23, 2012 9:50 pm

… and a fond memory of being slapped down as a first former for recording the water temperature in my cube as exactly 100 degree C, having not actually read the thermometer 🙂
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Cz4IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PP1#v=twopage&q&f=false

CRISP
June 23, 2012 9:52 pm

MYRRH,
You are quite right. Those on this site (including Anthony who I otherwise admire for his sterling fortitude and courage) should provide some hard evidence and sound physical theory to show there even is a Greenhouse Effect. You to, Robert Brown.
Monckton is wrong about Tyndall and his ‘proof’. Professor Wood (US) totally debunked this in the early C20 (as he did many other scientific claims).
Either the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is right or Greenhouse Theory is right. Not both, It is impossible. You CANNOT transfer heat from a cold body to a warmer body without doing work. No amount of so-called ‘back-radiation’ from a cold upper atmosphere to a warmer earth and ocean surface will do anything to the temperatures of the latter. If it does, you have just invented a perpetual motion machine (and all us engineers are out of work.)
Furthermore, the thermodynamic behaviour of gases in the infra-red range is quantum mechanical,and it is entirely wrong to apply the non-quantum Stefan-Boltzmann equation to this. If you understand what happens to that IR absorbed energy in a gas molecule when the input energy stops being ‘pumped’ in, then you realise how very quickly that energy is lost, and how little we have to fear.
How many readers understand the 4 different ways in which gas molecules carry energy, and how important those differences are?

June 23, 2012 10:02 pm

old bloke in Perth Australia says:
June 23, 2012 at 9:01 pm
Good post! I’m with yourself and Smokey: infidel and agnostic.

gallopingcamel
June 23, 2012 10:05 pm

Berényi Péter, June 23, 2012 at 12:06 pm said:
“Well said! That’s the benefit of living in a free country, is not it? Fight for it, everybody, to keep it that way.”
While it is very difficult to fire a tenured professor at Duke I can cite a few examples of such folk who were made sufficiently uncomfortable that they resigned.
Vaclav Havel explains how virtue and the pursuit of excellence may have a negative effect on one’s job prospects. Duke university sometimes behaves just like the Eastern Bohemian Brewery that Havel pillories:
http://gallopingcamel.info/Docs/Havel_Powerless.doc
Fortunately the penalties for refusng to yield to authority are not as severe as they used to be. One of the “Masters” of the college I attended was martyred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Ridley_%28martyr%29

June 23, 2012 10:14 pm

Jimmy Haigh,
Since I am half [American mongrel] Scottish, I’m not surprised that we have something akin to a treemometer teleconnection. [GMTA.]
[The other half is Hungarian, which is almost German, and explains why I desire to impose my iron will on the rest of the world. For their own good, of course.☺]

Merovign
June 23, 2012 10:16 pm

Gail Combs says:
June 23, 2012 at 5:17 pm
You are correct. Because I am in favor of the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, I was told by a dance partner in Massachusetts “When we take over we will kill people like you.” and he was completely serious.

Yeah. Liberal. Heh.
I’ve run into a lot of people with that attitude. It’s not a rarity.
Hopefully you gave the correct answer.

Miss Grundy
June 23, 2012 10:26 pm

Greg House says: “No, give them a civilized alternative that communicates their disdain for us without stepping over the line. If the other side won’t pick up this option and instead persists in its un-civil behavior of using ‘denier,” we would then be in a position to scold them about it–and score a point with the audience.”
Yeah, “scold” them — as if Climategate and the CAGW sites don’t tell us that they will seek to destroy “deniers” personally and professionally, without addressing the science.
Yeah…that’ll work!

TimC
June 23, 2012 10:35 pm

davidmhoffer said: “I bever effing said anything about legally preventing them for goodness sakes”; “That is WHY they resort instead to the tactics of intimidation, dismissal, and dehumanization. And you want to let them.”
Well, the point is that you just can’t stop them. You do it your way and I’ll do it mine – but IMHO quietly getting on with the job will be more effective at this stage than swearing and railing about the use of one silly word.
And Gail Combs says “… Dr Brown is correct. This was in a PEER-REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC Journal”.
I already accepted (above, at 1:37 am) that use of the “d-word” in scientific journal[s] supposedly devoted to the objective appraisal of evidence runs the obvious danger of showing that the journal is parti pris – but as the rest of your comment IMHO freedom of speech (including of course the right to use the d-word) under the rule of law is the best way to shine real light on “greedy power hunger thieves” (your words).

June 23, 2012 10:38 pm

bj says:
June 22, 2012 at 10:16 pm
Actually, this bit is simply wrong, as it pertains to CLIMATE science. It is the opinion of a physicist of course… and that brings into play the “arrogance of physicists”…

Cuz Climate Science, as we all know, is *special*.
LT hops up and down saying that AGW is real because of “the physics” and you’re claiming it’s real in spite of the “arrogance of physicists” — pay more attention to the talking points, guys…

Matt
June 23, 2012 10:47 pm

It has to be noted that the ‘deniers’ have a GHCN artice up right below this sticky post that calls the other side ‘deluded’ in the head line. Look it up in the dictionary, I’d rather be in denial than deluded.
And ‘deniers’ call the other side ‘warmists’ in general – which is itself a term of endeerment for people who ‘deny’ that it is “not warming”.
So I guess it is a mixed bag…

George E. Smith;
June 24, 2012 1:07 am

“””””…..CRISP says:
June 23, 2012 at 9:52 pm
MYRRH,
You are quite right. Those on this site (including Anthony who I otherwise admire for his sterling fortitude and courage) should provide some hard evidence and sound physical theory to show there even is a Greenhouse Effect. You to, Robert Brown.
Monckton is wrong about Tyndall and his ‘proof’. Professor Wood (US) totally debunked this in the early C20 (as he did many other scientific claims).
Either the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is right or Greenhouse Theory is right. Not both, It is impossible. You CANNOT transfer heat from a cold body to a warmer body without doing work. No amount of so-called ‘back-radiation’ from a cold upper atmosphere to a warmer earth and ocean surface will do anything to the temperatures of the latter. If it does, you have just invented a perpetual motion machine (and all us engineers are out of work.)…..”””””
Well CRISP, If you had been working for me, when I was in the hiring and firing of “engineers”, you just might be out of work. If you don’t know the difference between Electromagnetic Radiation, which is a wave propagation, that can go from anywhere (almost) in the universe to anywhere (almost) else; and ” heat” which is the mechanical energy of large assemblages of particles (which don’t even have to be atoms or molecules}, and which requires a continuous path of such interracting(colliding) particles for its propagation, so it can’t even go to most places in the universe (from most other places, then I likely don’t have any work you could handle.
As for Temperatures, and what they can or cannot do; EM radiation doesn’t know anything at all about what Temperature is; let alone pay any attention to it; apparently, neither do you. I know Myrrh doesn’t.

Myrrh
June 24, 2012 1:14 am

AJB says:
June 23, 2012 at 9:26 pm
Myrrh says, June 23, 2012 at 5:09 pm
Oh jolly dee, but where is this easily-replicable and frequently-replicated measurements first performed by Tyndall?
Pages 13 to 16.
========
So where is it?
The Greenhouse Effect http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Greenhouse_effect

The greenhouse effect is the process in which long wave radiation (infrared) emitted by the earth surface is absorbed by atmospheric gases only to cause further emission of infrared radiation back to the earth, warming its surface. The major atmospheric gases causing such greenhouse effects are water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), ozone (O3), nitrous oxide (N2O), chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), and perfluorocarbons (PFCs); they are known as greenhouse gases (GHGs).
The Earth’s average surface temperature of 15°C (288 K) is considered to be about 33°C warmer than it would be without the greenhouse effect (IPCC 2007).

This is what pisses me off about your and Monckton’s glib answers, Tyndall’s experiment showed no such thing, had nothing to do with it. You just throw it in for effect, with most of you mindlesslessly repeating the claim that he proved it and some of you even having read him and presumably with enough grasp of the language and a modicum of nous to see he doesn’t address this yet still deceitfully claim he proved it. Like all your AGW claims, it doesn’t bear close scruitiny, seen to be just another big fib. As Arrhenius another example where you mangle the science history to perpetuate your AGW fisics con.
Tyndall like I’m sure many AGW shills do, knew the difference between visible light and the invisible heat which is thermal infrared, and even in these very first step to understanding the subject was clear about one thing:
“On pushing the pile into the dark region beyond
the red, the heat, instead of vanishing, rises suddenly and
enormously in intensity, until at some distance beyond the
red it attains a maximum. Moving the pile still forward,
the thermal power falls, somewhat more suddenly than it
rose. It then gradually shades away, but for a distance
beyond the red greater than the length of the whole visi-
ble spectrum, signs of heat may be detected. Drawing,
as Sir William Herschel did, a datum line, and erecting
along it perpendiculars, proportional in length to the
thermal intensity at the respective points, we obtain the
extraordinary curve which exhibits the distribution of
heat in the spectrum of the electric light. In the region
of dark rays beyond the red the curve shoots up in a steep
and massive peak — a kind of Matterhorn of heat, which
dwarfs by its magnitude the portion of the diagram re-
presenting tlie luminous radiation. Indeed, the idea forced
upon the mind by the inspection of this diagram is that
the light rays are a mere insignificant appendage to the
dark ones, thrown in as it were by nature for the purposes
of vision.”
From him confirming Herschel we have the beginning of our knowledge in the traditional division in physics of Light and Heat. Visible light is not hot – He falsifies your AGW claim that shortwave is thermal.
Shortwave is insignificant in heating capacity, useful for seeing the world, thrown in by nature for the purpose of seeing the world, to give us vision, his conclusion. It will be later scientists who discover visible’s other great property of converting to chemical energy, not heat energy, in the process of photosynthesis, the very base of all our complex and wonderful carbon life forms, of using the Sun’s visible energy to create life.
And if you’re reading this in cold light of day..
Another thing that pisses me off, Tyndall was one of the most consciencious of that new breed of the modern scientist, a truly great scientist and great man, your glibness in using him so deceitfully to promote an idea for which you still have not provided any proof, any rational physical explanation, any empirical show and tell, as well as hiding that he disproves your fisics, dishonours him.

Myrrh
June 24, 2012 1:23 am

CRISP says:
June 23, 2012 at 9:52 pm
You are quite right. Those on this site (including Anthony who I otherwise admire for his sterling fortitude and courage) should provide some hard evidence and sound physical theory to show there even is a Greenhouse Effect. You to, Robert Brown.
Monckton is wrong about Tyndall and his ‘proof’. Professor Wood (US) totally debunked this in the early C20 (as he did many other scientific claims).
Either the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is right or Greenhouse Theory is right. Not both, It is impossible.

They never do provide it because they can’t prove it and because they can’t find anything in their reams and reams of supposed science on this which ever gives the experiment to prove it – like Monckton all they do is wave generally in the direction of the science past and forcibly claim that it exists and demand no one disputes this ‘because the science is settled’. Monckton a particularly nasty example by his request we be isolated in a ghetto in WUWT to not interfere in his story telling from his pretended high ground. Thankfully Anthony is made of finer stuff, he has put up several discussions on Arrhenius for example, so while he may not have the time himself to investigate certain aspects he does provide a forum where these things can be discussed and all views aired.
But let the challenge stand for Robert Brown..
..a project to include his students perhaps, and he could post a running commentary here, keep us informed of the thinking and process at least?

mydogsgotnonose
June 24, 2012 1:45 am

Sorry George E Smith, there are engineers like me who can easily show why electromagnetic radiation cannot transfer energy to a warmer body contrary to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
There is a glaring hole in the understanding of most physicists. Engineers are taught always to calculate the difference of the S-B flux so don’t face the problem. However, the physicists use the 2-stream approximation dating from 1906, which assumes that the radiative flux from cold to hot is a real energy flow.. It’s why Houghton and Sagan, and presumably you, went wrong.
The Meteorologists are really to blame for this debacle because not only do they believe in ‘back radiation’, they also believe they measure it with pyrgeometers when the signal, the temperature radiation field, is the artefact of the shield behind the detector.
So, what really happens? Claes Johnson of Sky Dragon has updated Planck’s physics but it’s unintelligible to most. I have concentrated on the mechanism. You transfer radiative to kinetic energy via an intermediate activated state of matter. This obeys simple statistical thermodynamics’ principles. Thus for a body at constant temperature an equal number of empty such states is filled per unit time from kinetic energy as EM energy. Similarly the decay rate to kinetic and EM energy is equal: four rate equations.
Change the equilibrium by reducing the temperature of the surroundings and those rate equations change in favour of kinetic energy being transferred to EM energy, heat transfer. At the colder boy, there is more transfer of EM energy to kinetic energy than vice-versa.
There can be no net energy transfer from a colder body to a warmer body. The two-stream approximation used by Houghton has been applied wrongly at BOA and TOA so the climate models have in them a ‘Perpetual Motion Machine of the 2nd Kind’. This is probably the most astounding failure of academic physics in modern history.

June 24, 2012 1:47 am

Miss Grundy says:
June 23, 2012 at 10:26 pm
Greg House says: “No, give them a civilized alternative that communicates their disdain for us without stepping over the line. If the other side won’t pick up this option and instead persists in its un-civil behavior of using ‘denier,” we would then be in a position to scold them about it–and score a point with the audience.”

They don’t want a “civilized alternative.” Invective is their ultima ratio lunavespertiliones, and they’ll keep using it regardless of whether skeptics complain about it or ignore it, because it’s effective at keeping their own side toeing the line.
Yeah, “scold” them — as if Climategate and the CAGW sites don’t tell us that they will seek to destroy “deniers” personally and professionally, without addressing the science.
Yeah…that’ll work!

Gezackly. Go to the sources and see if you find any of the Usual Suspects haranguing the faithful for civility in discourse.

June 24, 2012 1:55 am

Gail Combs says:
June 23, 2012 at 5:17 pm
You are correct. Because I am in favor of the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, I was told by a dance partner in Massachusetts “When we take over we will kill people like you.” and he was completely serious.

Did you remind him to bring something to the gunfight other than an attitude?

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