So Dinosaurs Could Fly ! – Part I

A look at diminishing atmospheric pressure

Guest post by Andi Cockroft

In an unrelated article of mine on Isostacy and Mean Sea Level posted here, I mentioned in passing a thesis paper by Theresa Cole (here) and here: ColeTheresaN2011MSc – which included this graph depicting an observed fall in global annual mean atmospheric pressure since 1916 (from NOAA I believe)

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Figure 1 Historic global annual mean atmospheric pressure at sea level between 1916 and 2007

A recent exchange with Theresa, has caused me to revisit this apparent anomaly, and wonder where this is all heading – and indeed how long this has been going on !

But why the heading – So Dinosaurs Could Fly ?

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Figure 2 – Artists impression of Quetzalcoatlus with its 45’ wingspan

Well, seems that engineers are of the opinion that the pterosaurs were just too heavy to get off the ground given today’s environment, and they must have been helped by far denser air.

Denser air of course means a higher pressure – I have seen estimates ranging from about 3.5 to 8 times that of today. Let’s pick a mid-point of say 5 for the purpose of this post. (I trust these are not the same engineers who state categorically that a Bumble-Bee is incapable of flight)

So from 100Mya to today, how has air pressure gone from a possible 5000 mbar to 1013 mbar of today? And why is it still (possibly) continuing to fall?

Questions that spring to mind are:-

· Is our atmosphere being sucked out in to space?

· Is the composition of the atmosphere changing and so getting lighter?

· Change in water vapour?

· Increasing CO2

· Burning hydrocarbons + O2 -> CO & CO2

· Volcanic eruptions

· Release/Uptake of gases from/to the ocean

· O3 -> O2

· Is an increase in temperature causing a somehow related increase in pressure?

For those who might not remember, I remind readers I do not have strong scientific qualifications in meteorology, hydrology chemistry etc., just an enquiring mind – so feel free to disagree with my arguments here.

In researching this post, I came across many conundrums. Many contradictions or seemingly incongruent theories. But hey, let’s look at what is out there starting with young Earth and work forwards to see what we shall reveal.

I also found myself using those well used weasel words such as could, may, might, suppose etc. Sorry, but given the nature of the discussion – this is just what it is a discussion of some possibilities – not proven fact!

So, just looking at the graph in figure 1 of the past 90 years:- Temperature may have localised effects, but in general, global mean atmospheric pressure at sea level is directly proportional to the mass of the entire atmosphere – the current accepted mean value is around 1013.25 Mbar. So any warming observed over the past 90 or so years should be ruled out as causation – warm or cold the air weighs the same (within reason)

A drop of 1 Mbar may seem trivial over 90 years, but at that rate mother Earth may run out of atmosphere altogether in just 100,000 years !!

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Figure 3 Three possible alternatives for the atmospheric pressure early in Earth’s lifetime, given that it was at ~5 bar, ~100 Mya.

Going back 100 million years, for a pressure equivalent to 5000 Mbar, there would have to be either (a) a lot more air, or (b) different composition – or a combination of each.

And of course the raging question – how has a 5000 Mbar atmosphere reduced to todays 1013.25 Mbar?

The Levenspiel et al 2000 paper is well worth a read, and has been cited indirectly here as part of 450 Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skepticism of AGW caused Global Warming here, and referred to at WUWT here.

What was the air pressure for the 97% of Earth’s life before the age of dinosaurs? Levenspiel et alhave three possible alternatives, as shown in Figure 3.

  • The pressure could have been at 1 bar throughout Earth’s earlier life, risen to 4–5 bar ~100 Mya (just at the time when the giant fliers needed it), and then returned to 1 bar (curve A).
  • The pressure could have been ~4–5 bar from Earth’s beginning, 4600 Mya; and ~65 Mya, it could have begun to come down to today’s 1 bar (curve B).
  • The atmosphere could have started at higher pressure and then decreased continuously through Earth’s life to ~4–5 bar ~100 Mya and down to 1 bar today (curve C).

The third alternative seems to be the most reasonable, so let us pursue it. We will also look into the composition of Earth’s atmosphere, but we will first discuss Earth’s surface and see how it affects the atmosphere.

From http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com, the specific gravity of some common gases can be found in the table below:

Gas Specific Gravity
Acetylene (ethyne) – C2H2 0.90
Air1) 1.000
Alcohol vapour 1.601
Ammonia – NH3 0.59
Argon – Ar 1.38
Arsine 2.69
Benzene – C6H6 2.6961
Blast Furnace gas 1.02
Butadiene – C4H6 1.87
Butane – C4H10 2.0061
1-Butene (Butylene)- C4H8 1.94
Isobutene – C4H8 1.94
Carbon dioxide – CO2 1.5189
Carbon monoxide – CO 0.9667
Carbureted Water Gas 0.63
Chlorine – Cl2 2.486
Coke Oven Gas 0.44
Cyclobutane 1.938
Cyclopentane 2.422
Cyclopropane 1.451
Decane 4.915
Deutrium – D2 0.070
Digestive Gas (Sewage or Biogas) 0.8
Ethane – C2H6 1.0378
Ether vapour 2.586
Ethyl Chloride – C2H5Cl 2.23
Ethylene (Ethene) – C2H4 0.9683
Fluorine 1.31
Helium – He 0.138
Heptanes 3.459
Hexane 2.973
Hydrogen 0.0696
Hydrogen chloride – HCl 1.268
Hydrogen sulfide – H2S 1.1763
Hydrofluoric acid 2.370
Hydrochloric acid 1.261
Illuminating gas 0.4
Isobutane 2.01
Isopentane 2.48
Krypton 2.89
Marsh gas 0.555
Mercury vapour 6.940
Methane – CH4 0.5537
Methyl Chloride 1.74
Natural Gas (typical) 0.60 – 0.70
Neon 0.697
Nitric oxide – NO 1.037
Nitrogen – N2 (pure) 0.9669
Nitrogen – N2 (atmospheric) 0.9723
Nitrous oxide – N2O 1.530
Nonane 4.428
Octane 3.944
Oxygen – O2 1.1044
Ozone 1.660
Pentane 2.487
Phosgene 1.39
Propane – C3H8 1.5219
Propene (Propylene) – C3H6 1.4523
R-11 4.742
R-12 4.174
R-22 2.985
R-114 5.9
R-123 5.279
R-134a 3.522
Sasol 0.42
Silane 1.11
Sulfur Dioxide – SO2 2.264
Toluene-Methylbenzene 3.1082
Water gas (bituminous) 0.71
Water vapor 0.6218
Xenon 4.53

1) NTP – Normal Temperature and Pressure – is defined as air at 20oC (293.15 K, 68oF) and 1 atm ( 101.325 kN/m2, 101.325 kPa, 14.7 psia, 0 psig, 30 in Hg, 760 torr)

Since specific gravity is the ratio between the density (mass per unit volume) of the actual gas and the density of air, specific gravity has no dimension. The density of air at NTP is 1.205 kg/m3

To change the “mass” of the atmosphere to any meaningful way would require say a 75% mercury vapour composition – something not altogether conducive to life as we know it. The alternative is of course just a lot more atmosphere.

Turning our attention for a moment to Earth’s twin, Venus, formed in probably very similar environs, yet Venus retains an atmosphere composed of CO2 and Nitrogen, with a pressure equivalent of around 90 Bar. Venus is closer to the Sun, so receives greater energy, but that cannot in itself account for the very significant differences in today’s environments.

Levenspiel postulates that the creation of Earth’s companion Moon stripped off much of Earth’s mantle, leaving it a rather fluid lithosphere compared to Venus. It is this fluid lithosphere that has allowed continental drift to rearrange and directly affect the planet’s atmosphere. Couple that with a slightly cooler Earth (less sunlight), allowing liquid water to form, and the basis for removal of CO2 is formed.

If say 4 Bya, Earth did have an atmosphere with a 90% CO2 concentration, with a high atmospheric pressure, Levenspiel proposes that simple dissolution in water would see a 50% reduction in nett CO2 atmospheric concentrations.

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Figure 4 History of deposition of CO2 as carbonates. The red area represents continental deposits that “float” on denser material and are not subducted. The blue area represents ocean deposits. These are frequently subducted and therefore relatively young.

But it doesn’t stop there

Several cycles take place to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, not least by dissolution in rain, combination with minerals on land and ultimately flowing into the oceans and deposit as sedimentation.

True, some subduction at plate boundaries would recycle carbonates through volcanisms and back into the atmosphere, but over time a gradual reduction of CO2 takes place.

As carbon life-forms take up even more carbonates to build homes for themselves, then die and bequeath these homes to the sea floor as sediment, more and more carbon is tied up as rock.

In Potential Errors in Estimates of Carbonate Rock Accumulating through Geologic Time (pay walled here), Hay calculates that today the continents contain at least 2.82 × 106 km3 of limestone, which are the remains of deposits over the past 570 million years that have not been washed to sea or subducted back into Earth’s interior. This is equivalent to a CO2 atmospheric pressure of 38 bar. If we add the carbonates found on the ocean floor, the equivalent CO2 atmospheric pressure rises to 55 bar.

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Figure 5 Progressive lowering of CO2 pressure due to carbonate formation and deposition on Earth’s surface.

Adding all this together more than accounts for a 90% CO2 concentration at 90 Bar being reduced over time to a much lower say 20% CO2 and 4 or 5 bar – just right for the pterosaurs to take wing.

Whilst all this was going on, plant life took a turn all of its own.

Evolving from the primordial soup, cyanobacteria initially removed Iron from the oceans and created Oxygen. It was this oxygen that then led to multi-celled life-forms and ultimately diverging between the plants and animals such as protozoa, fish, land animals and dinosaurs

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Above: A laminated rock formed by the growth of blue-green algae (i.e., cyanobacteria)

So, if we now accept that 100Mya, there was an atmosphere with about 20% CO2 and say 5 Bar pressure, would plant and animal life have thrived under such conditions? Do we even know that these values were anywhere near accurate?

If we believe the aeronautical engineers, pterosaurs needed a denser air to succeed – that estimate is between 3.5 and 8 times current density (=pressure). So that part of our assumption looks OK on the face of it – yes air would have had to have been more dense.

And what of O2?

Well perhaps it comes down to some type of proxies – yes our old friends !

clip_image013We do know that there were some pretty impressive flying insects around back then, and it seems well known that insects breath through their “tracheae” – narrow tubes – rather than having lungs or gills. These tracheae transfer O2 directly from the surface of the skin into the organs of the body. The ability to uptake O2 is governed by the length of the tracheae. Big insects naturally have longer tracheae, so uptake less O2 – that is unless O2 is served at higher concentrations and/or pressure so the body can get all the O2 it needs.

Since we know there were huge dragonflies and cockroaches around during the Carboniferous and Permian (300-250Mya), it seems to support a postulation that O2 concentrations were of the order 35% back then, compared to today’s 20%.

Meganeura, a genus of dragonfly from about 300Mya had a wingspan of up to 65cm (2’1”), and Meganeuropsis Permiana from about 250Mya grew even larger – up to 71cm (2’4”).

Neither survived to compete alongside the pterosaurs however. Many believe the concentrations of O2 dropped too low to allow such mega fauna to survive beyond the Permian.

In Part II, I will pick up on your suggestions from comments here, and look to what has happened to reduce Atmospheric Pressure from 5 Bar to 1 Bar, and why it continues to drop today.

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Josh C
June 2, 2012 10:51 am

The problem with the theory of 35% oxygen is the burn rates. Working in petro chemicals they set up a HLA (High Level Alarm) for any concentration greater then 24%, due to the increased reactivity of any material in that environment. Clothes, paper products and especially petrochemical products become dangerously flammable with that small increase. In that, there was some testing of the danger of a 35% environment, and here is a refutation of the concept, abiding by a 35% possible concentration:
http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/newtown_square/publications/other_publishers/OCR/ne_2004_wildman001.pdf
But still the world would be very flammible. For fun, 1947 War videos Chemistry of Fire:

And note that there are special cleaning requirements for tanks that have pressurized air with more then a 23% oxygen level:
http://www.luxfercylinders.com/frequently-asked-questions/aluminum-scuba-cylinders-in-oxygen-enriched-and-oxygen-service
There are quite a few detramental affects to high oxygen levels, and while it might not be a normal affect for this theorizing, would be an affect that might counter the abilty of the Earth environment from being able to sustain 25% or higher oxygen levels.

gnomish
June 2, 2012 11:14 am

mizimi says:
June 2, 2012 at 10:00 am
thanks for producing the numbers, mizimi.
next case.

June 2, 2012 11:39 am

….continued from above….
on the ‘faint Sun paradox’….i did try to engage Dr Lindzen on the dinosaur wingspan/double atmosphere explaination following the Jan, 2010 Lindzen-North debate at Rice University and in subsequent emails….[non-responsive]
on the ‘dense air/sea level’….water is classified as non-compressible, certainly in the range of this discusion….
on the….’total loss of atmoshere in 100k yrs’….this is linear projection, where erosion and decompositon would be logarithmic decline + continious ‘elemental’ atom additions….expect several million years….
on….’dinosaurs couldn’t walk today’….i can bench press TWICE as much weight when i’m underwater….atmosphere with ~8 times pressure would provide some buoyancy….to walking & flying lizards….as for ‘flying pigs’….only AGW can provide buoyancy for that….
[thanks for the discussion Andy & Anthony…as an engineer, i share Andy’s persepctive]

Paul Marko
June 2, 2012 11:50 am

Chart 5: It’s interesting that the decrease in CO2 due to both continental and ocean deposits accelerated near the end of the Devonian, 350 Mya, and leveled out at the end of the Permian’s ‘Great Dying,’ 250 Mya. Then the slope increased as life re-established and flourished, baring a few cosmic impacts.
Anyone notice , this is an inverse ‘hockey stick’ portending doom caused by marine organisms continually and permanently removing CO2 dissolved in the oceans? I’m no longer sympathetic of ‘Whale Wars.’

June 2, 2012 11:53 am

Lucy Skywalker
On the stability of G, see The Constancy of the Constants of Nature: Updates by Takeshi Chiba
who reviews measurements of the relative change in G as parts per 10^-12. Its the absolute value of G that is more uncertain.

nutso fasst
June 2, 2012 11:54 am

The earth has gained mass through the years through impacts and dust accretion, and some of the early atmospheric components have solidified. Meanwhile, the earth’s rotation continues to slow as the moon’s orbital velocity increases. Could it be that increasing density is decreasing circumference, further increasing surface gravity?

crosspatch
June 2, 2012 12:02 pm

The amount of atmosphere loss to space probably isn’t linear. It probably changes due to solar activity, strength of Earth’s magnetic field, volcanism and temperature. For example, over the past 3 million years the Earth has been generally cooling. This would cause more gas to be dissolved in the oceans.
I don’t think it is accurate to extrapolate a linear rate of atmospheric loss based on the very recent behavior of barometric pressure. An active sun will strip more away. A weaker magnetic field will allow more to be stripped away. Increased volcanism will add some, etc.

tty
June 2, 2012 12:02 pm

“Well, seems that engineers are of the opinion that the pterosaurs were just too heavy to get off the ground given today’s environment, and they must have been helped by far denser air.”
Unfortunately this is wrong. People who study pterosaurs consider that they were fully capable of powered flight, and in some respects superior to birds (though they were certainly more clumsy than birds on the ground).
And if it was possible to fly with a much higher wing loading a hundred million years ago, why did birds and insects have wings as large as today?.
Also an atmosphere as dense as 5000 mb would probably have a ground temperature higher than the boiling point of water in the tropics (calculate the altitude of the tropopause and multiply by the wet adiabatic)

Owen in Ga
June 2, 2012 12:04 pm

I’m not sold on the square cube law on the pterasaurs. If the additional wingspan were mostly tendon and cartilage with a thin membrane of skin providing most of the lifting area, these critters could have achieved much large lifting areas with only modest additions of mass. All it takes is one hallow bone finger spar to elongate out another meter or two with that skin stretched from the femur to the fingertip and a huge surface area is achieved with very little addition of weight. Add a little lifting body mechanics to the torso and this thing may have been perfectly capable of flapping hard enough to find an updraft and soar.

psi
June 2, 2012 12:14 pm

Another alternative explanation is that the force of gravity has increased. Given the fact that prehistoric gigantism is hardly limited to aerial creatures, it seems that such an explanation — however strange it might seem — ought to be entertained by those with open minds.

June 2, 2012 12:14 pm

Lucy Skywalker
Zhi-Ping Li and Xin Li may have a breakthrough in determining G and relating gravity to electromagnetism. See:
Quantum resonance scheme to measure the gravitational constant G

By the method of quantum oscillation, we get the accurate result of gravitational constant G in vacuum: G = 6.6722779(13)×10^-11 N·m^2 /kg^2

They model gravity as varying inversely with the dielectric constant relative to that in vacuum, or inversely with the square of the local speed of light relative to that in vacuum.

Robbie
June 2, 2012 12:22 pm

Thanks for putting the PDF on your server. It is much appreciated!

June 2, 2012 12:25 pm

Is it just me or is there no significant change in pressure until around 1990? Shouldn’t the data be verified?

eyesonu
June 2, 2012 12:27 pm

Interesting read. I could only respond with “Well, if you say so.”
I have never seen an ostrich fly. Same would be said of a penguin and presumably the dodo bird. Did anyone see a dinosaur fly? Now I have see a lot of crap flying with regards to the atmosphere by ‘scientists’ over recent past.
And then there’s the issue of fish with wings. And of course, the issue of imaginations with wings.
“The ability to uptake O2 is governed by the length of the tracheae. Big insects naturally have longer tracheae, so uptake less O2 ….. ” Edit?

davidmhoffer
June 2, 2012 12:33 pm

Owen in Ga says:
June 2, 2012 at 12:04 pm
I’m not sold on the square cube law on the pterasaurs. If the additional wingspan were mostly tendon and cartilage with a thin membrane of skin providing most of the lifting area, these critters could have achieved much large lifting areas with only modest additions of mass. All it takes is one hallow bone finger spar to elongate out another meter or two with that skin stretched from the femur to the fingertip and a huge surface area is achieved with very little addition of weight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
My comment was about the model, not the pterasaur. The model was half scale. Make the model full scale, and it would have four times the surface area and eight times the mass. So constructing and flying a 1/2 scale model proves… not much.
On the other hand, there is little doubt in my mind that the pterasaur’s were capable of flight. The notion that they were “just gliders” doesn’t sit well with me. Their legs were far too short for them to be anything but completely ungainly on the ground. The notion that they could perhaps climb a tree or a cliff to get the altitude to launch themselves just doesn’t seem plausible to me from looking at their skeletons.

Henry Clark
June 2, 2012 12:43 pm

Well, frankly, much of this article is wrong to misleading. That oxygen was a greater percentage of the atmosphere in the times of the dinosaurs is well known, with samples from bubbles in amber showing often 30-35% oxygen compared to 21% now. But that has been used to explain the giant insects without any several-times increase in total atmospheric pressure to several bars: a strange and different assumption.
For large Pterosaurs, it has been estimated, for example, that a 10 meter wingspan individual had a weight of 70 to 250 kg ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus ). They were large in wing area, but they were very lightweight relative to their size.
For perspective, existing Great Bustards and Kori Bustards fly with up to 20 kg weight but at a lesser wingspan of around 2.7 m maximum. In terms of wing loading (weight per unit area of wing surface), as a thought experiment, if you took one of the current birds and scaled it up to 10 meter wingspan, increasing its dimensions by around a factor of 3.7, it would have around 3.7^2 or thus around 13.7 times the wing surface area, so a bird massing around 270 kg with 10 meter wingspan could have compable wing loading. Compare to the prior Pterosaur mass figures.
Especially considering thus how Pterosaur wing loadings were semi-comparable to those of some existing birds, not several times higher or something extremely different, there is no reason to conclude that Pterosaurs needed several times higher atmospheric pressure than now; the higher percentage oxygen would help them already.
(For additional perspective, a 10-meter wingspan large Pterosaur is around as much wingspan as a 11-meter wingspan Cessna 172 aircraft but with a factor of 5 to 16 times less weight, relatively more kite-like, which is what would allow it to fly at far lesser speed than the Cessna’s ~ 50 mph stall speed).
Besides, Figure 5 of this article is not valid. For example, regarding the faint early sun paradox:
“One of the early attempts at solving the problems has been basically to adjust the greenhouse effect and you can do most prominently by just adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.” “We’re not happy about it because we have deposits from the ocean at that time, and these deposits contain iron oxide minerals and we know from the observation of how they form today that this kinds of minerals cannot form if there’s a very high amount of CO2 or carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and the greenhouse solution to the faint sun paradox required about 30% CO2 in the atmosphere, but what we could see is that its very much lower.”
“There is a lot of geological evidence to suggest that the continents on earth have grown over time, so there were very little or no continents 4 billion years. Of course there’s about one-third of the planet is covered by continents today. And continents are much lighter in colour than ocean and therefore, if you had less continent, you would have a darker earth and it would’ve absorbed more heat from the sun if it’s darker. So that’s one part of it. The other thing is that in order for the sun to be able to efficiently heat the surface, it needs to be able to penetrate the clouds and today a lot of the sunlight is reflected by the clouds; but again clouds are different today than they were on the early earth because at that time, we didn’t have the type of organisms that produce chemicals, an active part in cloud formation today.”

http://www.nature.com/nature/podcast/v464/n7289/nature-2010-04-01.html
(The preceding quote is how the claim of CAGW alarmists that extreme levels of CO2 back then explain the faint early sun paradox is false, while there is an alternative better explanation as implied).
CO2 concentrations over the past were more like this:
http://www.paulmacrae.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/co2-levels-over-time1.jpg
Even 7000 ppm is about 0.007 bar, nothing even remotely like this article’s graph claiming up to 2+ bar.

Henry Clark
June 2, 2012 12:56 pm

Adding a bit to my prior comment:
As an additional illustration, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentavis is estimated to have flown just 6 million years ago with up to 70-78 kg mass and to do so by 7 meter wingspan. For a Quetzalcoatlus pterosaur
to fly with 70 – 250 kg mass when having 10-11 meter wingspan is not even too surprising in comparison, when a combination of up to 60% more wingspan and up to a comparable amount more wing chord length
would mean up to multiple times the wing surface area. There is no real reason to assume atmospheric pressures were multiple times higher back then and plenty of reason not. 30-35% oxygen in the age of the dinosaurs instead of 21% oxygen now but at roughly comparable atmospheric pressure to now (in the sense of not multiple atm) is the standard estimate.

June 2, 2012 1:05 pm

tty says
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/02/so-dinosaurs-could-fly-part-i/#comment-999596
Henry says
As I hinted on earlier it seems the way earth was wetted
(according to the most ancient scriptures)
was mostly not from the top to the bottom
(Noah did not see a rainbow before the big flood)
but from the bottom to the top.
This clearly suggests a different type of atmosphere.
Actually all the water vapor and CO2 in the air at 5 atm. would act as an anti greenhouse gas so it would keep earth cooler, not warmer.
this is something generally misunderstood until you read and munderstand this:
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011

BarryW
June 2, 2012 1:09 pm

While the bumblebee story may be a fable, I have one that is true. I met a gentleman by the name of Willard Custer who had invented an aircraft wing called (no surprise) the Custer Channel Wing. Basically he formed a wing into a U shape around a pusher propeller to gain extra lift. He said that when he had the FAA inspector come out to certify it for flight testing the prototype he was told that it wouldn’t be certified until he put wings on it since there was no way an aircraft of that weight could fly based on their formulas. However, he’d been flying test machines for years without the wings, but that didn’t sway the inspector. Just like the bumblebee, a valid calculation was being used on an object it didn’t apply to. Unfortunately, the technology didn’t go anywhere and is relegated to history.

Merovign
June 2, 2012 1:45 pm

I love the Custer Channel Wing. If I were to build a RC airplane from scratch, it would probably be a channel wing.

A fan of *MORE* discourse
June 2, 2012 2:18 pm

Anthony’s story has some unexpectedly alarming implications for climate-change:

Theresa Cole’s thesis, page 116: “The decreasing global annual mean atmospheric pressure trend shown in Figure 5.8 [and prominently posted here on WUWT] is expected with increasing global average temperatures.”

Needless to say, the explanation given is incorrect. The observed pressure decrease [if it is not artifactual] implies not a temperature increase, but rather a atmospheric mass decrease.
At least some explanations for such a mass decrease are sufficiently alarming as to be unpalatable to WUWT’s traditionally non-alarmist reading of the climate-change data:
Alarming Explanation #1: Atmospheric mass is decreasing because the H2O content of the atmosphere is decreasing with increasing global temperature; the lessened cloud cover contributes to positive climate-change forcing.
Alarming Explanation #2: Atmospheric mass is decreasing because the oxygen content of the atmosphere is decreasing, in consequence of global deforestation and/or suppression of oceanic photosynthesis with increasing acidification and/or water temperature.
Needless to say, both possibilities tend to strengthen the cAGW position. So, WUWT?

June 2, 2012 2:35 pm

Andy Smith says,
“If you increase the air density, yes you will certainly increase the lift but at the same time you will also increase the drag, meaning that that you probably have not gained a great deal. ”
True but what about the other way? In a vacuum no drag but no lift either. Surely much depends on the power available in the creature?

peter_ga
June 2, 2012 2:37 pm

Perhaps UHI is a factor. If the temperature rises at a place due to human influences, that point will tend to be more thermic, ie attract heavier cooler air, and naturally will be at a slightly lower pressure. I am not a meteorologist, but in the southern hemisphere the local seabreezes tend north easterly on the eastern seaboard, and I have always assumed that happens because of pressure gradient and corialis effect.
If so then this could be a method to correct UHI influences in the data record.

gnomish
June 2, 2012 2:41 pm

i think i got things wrong and should have just stfu. typing first and thinking afterwords bad.
moderators, do for me what i should have, plz.
[REPLY: OK, you got it. Takes a big man uhhh.. person. -REP]

phlogiston
June 2, 2012 2:41 pm

So, if we now accept that 100Mya, there was an atmosphere with about 20% CO2 and say 5 Bar pressure, would plant and animal life have thrived under such conditions? Do we even know that these values were anywhere near accurate?
This is out of touch with experimental data. Geological data – both models and measurements – show CO2 levels of about 5000-10000 (0.5-1 %) in the Cambrian and getting lower since then. 20% just 100 MYa is impossible.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Phanerozoic_Carbon_Dioxide.png

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