Monckton in a rift with Union college Earth scientist and activist

Readers may recall this piece Monckton’s Schenectady showdown in which he schools a number of students despite “en-masse” collections (to use Donald Rodbell’s words) of naysayers. Mr. Rodbell and Erin Delman, pictured below, wrote this essay (which I’ve excerpted below) in their student newspaper The Concordiensis, citing their angst that Monckton was speaking.

A lord’s opinion can’t compete with scientific truth

IMG_3846

Erin Delman (left), President of the Environmental Club, debates with Monckton – photo by Charlotte Lehman | Department Chair and Professor of Geology Donald Rodbell (right) asks Lord Christopher Monckton a question at the event on the “other side” of global warming. – photo by Rachel Steiner, Concordiensis

By Donald Rodbell and Erin Delman in |

As Earth scientists, we were torn. The College Republicans and the Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT) were hosting Lord Monckton, a globally recognized climate skeptic, on Mon., March 5, and we were not quite sure how to respond. Frankly, the sentiment vacillated between utter disgust and sheer anger. On one hand, it seemed ludicrous to give Monckton a second of time or thought. On the other, however, dismissing him and allowing his speech without rejection risked that he would have an impact, and a dangerous one at that.

And thus, the college environmentalists – including Environmental Club members, the leaders and members of U-Sustain, concerned citizens, and renowned Earth scientists with PhDs from prestigious research institutions – decided to oppose the presence of Lord Monckton on our campus. We collected en-masse before his presentation to make it unambiguously clear that we would not allow such erroneous discourse to go unnoticed.

Lord Monckton does not stand alone in his beliefs on this issue; however, 97 percent of scientists overwhelmingly oppose his viewpoint. He kept asserting that this debate must follow a rigorous, science-based approach, and that the consensus of experts is, by itself, an insufficient basis on which to decide the veracity of the evidence for significant human-induced global warming.

Serious scientific debate cannot be carried out in the blogosphere, nor in highly charged and politically motivated presentations either by Lord Monckton or by Al Gore.  The fact of the matter is that science has spoken, the overwhelming bulk of the evidence has shown very, very clearly that global warming is occurring and is at least mostly caused by humans.  While scientific consensus can be wrong, it most often is not.

[end excerpts]

===============================================================

Sigh, there’s that ridiculous 97% figure again. You’d think these “educated” people would bother to check such things before mindlessly regurgitating them and making themselves look like sycophants. And then there’s this:  “Serious scientific debate cannot be carried out in the blogosphere…” well, then, PLEASE tell that to the RealClimate team so they stop trying to do that on the taxpayers dime.

It seems Erin Delman is training to be a professional enviro-legal troublemaker

She is interested in pursuing a joint Ph.D. and law degree in geology and environmental law and is considering a career in environmental policy, particularly involving water rights.

…so I suppose I’m not surprised at this article. With that California background and water rights bent, I predict she’ll be joining the Pacific Institute to supplement Gleick’s mission.

Full article here: A lord’s opinion can’t compete with scientific truth

===============================================================

Monckton responds in comments to that article

Monckton of Brenchley March 16, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

Oh, come off it, Professor!

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Professor Donald Rodbell’s personal attack on me in Concordiensis (“A Lord’s Opinion Can’t Compete with Scientific Truth”) deserves an answer. The Professor does not seem to be too keen on freedom of speech: on learning that I was to address students at Union College, he said that he “vacillated between utter disgust and sheer anger”. My oh my!

The Professor should be reminded of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States: “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech”. I exercised freedom of speech at Union College. The Professor may disagree with what I said (though his article is lamentably unspecific about what points in my lecture – if any – he disagreed with); but, under the Constitution, he may not deny or abridge my right to say it.

He and his fellow climate extremists ought not, therefore, to have talked of “opposing the presence of Lord Monckton”: for that would be to abridge my freedom of speech. It would have been fair enough for the Professor to talk of opposing my arguments – yet that, curiously, is what his rant in Concordiensis entirely fails to do.

The Professor says it is certain that “the world is warming, climatic patterns are changing, and humans are a driving force”. Let us look at these three statements in turn.

– The world is not warming at present. It has not been warming for almost a decade and a half, though it has been warming since 1695. In the 40 years to 1735, before the Industrial Revolution even began, the temperature in Central England (not a bad proxy for global temperatures) rose by 4 Fahrenheit degrees, compared with just 1 F° in the whole of the 20th century.

– Climatic patterns are indeed changing. But they have been changing for 4,567 million years, and they will go on changing long into the future. However, the fact of climate change does not tell us the cause of climate change.

– Humans are indeed exercising some influence. Indeed, though the Professor implies otherwise, I stated explicitly in my lecture that the IPCC might be right in saying that more than half of the warming since 1950 was caused by us. However, that tells us little about how much warming we may expect in future. My best estimate is that the CO2 we add to the atmosphere this century will cause around 1 C° of warming by 2100. But that is not far short of the IPCC’s own central estimate of 1.5 C°.

Next, the Professor asserts, without any evidence, that “97% of scientists overwhelmingly oppose [Monckton’s] viewpoint”. Overlooking the tautology (the word “overwhelmingly” should have been omitted), as far as I am aware there has been no survey of scientists or of public opinion generally to determine how many oppose my viewpoint. I am aware of two surveys in which 97% of scientists asserted that the world had warmed in the past 60 years: but, in that respect, they agree with my viewpoint. No survey has found 97% of scientists agreeing with the far more extreme proposition that unchecked emissions of CO2 will be very likely to cause dangerous global warming. And, even if there had been such a survey, the notion that science is done by head-counting in this way is the shop-worn logical fallacy of the argumentum ad populum – the headcount fallacy. That fallacy was first described by Aristotle 2300 years ago, and it is depressing to see a Professor trotting it out today.

Science is not done by headcount among scientists. It is done by measurement, observation, and experiment, and by the application of established theory to the results. Until Einstein, 100% of scientists thought that time and space were invariant. They were all wrong. So much for consensus.

Next, the Professor says I made “numerous inaccuracies and mis-statements”. Yet he does not mention a single one in his article, which really amounts to mere hand-waving. He then asserts that I have “no interest whatsoever in pursuing a truly scientific approach”. Those who were present, however, will be aware that I presented large quantities of data and analysis demonstrating that the principal conclusions of each of the four IPCC climate assessments are defective; that the warming to be expected from a doubling of CO2 is 1 C°; and that, even if 21st-century warming were 3 C°, it would still be 10-100 times cheaper and more cost-effective to do nothing now and adapt in a focused way later than to try to stop the warming by controlling CO2.

The Professor goes on to say that “the fundamental building block of all science is peer-reviewed publications”. No: rigorous thought is the cornerstone of science. That is what is lacking in the IPCC’s approach. All of its principal conclusions are based on modeling. However, not one of the models upon which it relies has been peer-reviewed. Nor is any of the IPCC’s documents peer-reviewed in the accepted sense. There are reviewers, but the authors are allowed to override them, and that is not peer review at all. That is how the IPCC’s deliberate error about the alleged disappearance of all Himalayan glaciers by 2035 was not corrected. Worse, almost one-third of all references cited in the IPCC’s 2007 Fourth Assessment Report were not peer-reviewed either. They were written by environmental campaigners, journalists and even students. That is not good enough.

Next, the Professor says that, in not publishing my own analysis of “global warming” in a reviewed journal, I am “fundamentally non-scientific”. Yet he does not take Al Gore to task for never having had anything published in a reviewed journal. Why this disfiguring double standard? The most important thing, surely, is to shut down the IPCC, whose approach – on the Professor’s own peer-review test – is “fundamentally non-scientific”.

The Professor goes on to say, “It is impossible to scrutinize [Monckton’s] methods, calculations, and conclusions without a complete and detailed peer-reviewed publication that presents the important details.” On the contrary: my slides are publicly available, and they show precisely how I reached my conclusions, with numerous references to the peer-reviewed literature and to the (non-peer-reviewed) IPCC assessment reports.

Next, the Professor says that “rather substantial errors” were pointed out to me at Union College. Yet in every case I was able to answer the points raised: and, here as elsewhere, the Professor is careful not to be specific about what “errors” I am thought to have made. I pointed out some very serious errors in the documents of the IPCC: why does the Professor look the other way when confronted with these “official” errors? Once again, a double standard seems to be at work.

The Professor ends by saying that “science has spoken” and that, “while scientific consensus can be wrong, it most often is not”. Well, the eugenics consensus of the 1920s, to the effect that breeding humans like racehorses would improve the stock, was near-universally held among scientists, but it was wrong, and it led directly to the dismal rail-yards of Oswiecim and Treblinka. The Lysenko consensus of the 1940s and 1950s, to the effect that soaking seed-corn in water over the winter would help it to germinate, wrecked 20 successive Soviet harvests and killed 20 million of the proletariat. The ban-DDT consensus of the 1960s has led to 40 million malaria deaths in children (and counting), 1.25 million of them lasts year alone. The don’t-stop-AIDS consensus of the 1980s has killed 33 million, with another 33 million infected and waiting to die.

The climate “consensus” is also killing millions by diverting billions of dollars from helping the poor to enriching governments, bureaucrats, bankers, landowners, windfarm scamsters, and environmentalist racketeers, and by denying to the Third World the fossil-fueled electricity it so desperately needs. It is time to stop the killing. If arguing for a more rational and scientifically-based policy will bring the slaughter of our fellow citizens of this planet to an end, then I shall continue to argue for it, whether the Professor likes it or not.

He should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.

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Greg House
March 18, 2012 2:55 pm

Anthony Watts says:
March 18, 2012 at 2:28 pm
I always get a kick out of people like Greg that think trees make good thermometers… I’m sure Greg will be able to tell us how the separate a temperature signal in a tree ring width from a precipitation one from…
=================================================
Anthony, I am sorry to apparently/possibly have caused a misunderstanding, but I do not think trees make good thermometers. Actually I do think this tree thing is a complete bull***t.
If you are referring to these words of mine: “…but the problem is, that a non-representative thermometer is not any better, than a non-representative tree”, then it was meant differently, like “either tree or a thermometer, whatever is non-representative is bad”.

REPLY:
thanks for clearing that up – Anthony

March 18, 2012 2:58 pm

“Liebig used the image of a barrel—now called Liebig’s barrel—to explain his law.” — from the link by Anthony Watts.
I guess the cAGW Team has its collective head in Liebig’s barrel!

Greg House
March 18, 2012 3:01 pm

RockyRoad says:
March 18, 2012 at 2:44 pm
Cause and Effect: The tree vs. the thermometer (liquid bulb type). …
I’m sure I won’t convince you, Greg, but that’s not my intent. My intent is to display the blatant disparity in your argument to all the thousands of other readers on this site. Those are the ones you should be worried about.
===============================================
I agree with your post, but please note, that it was not my argument, as I just told Anthony.

March 18, 2012 3:27 pm

Michael Palmer says:
March 18, 2012 at 1:30 pm
……………………………………..
Doctor, you are repeating the same basic error again and again like broken automaton, either not understanding or pretending not to understand the issue.
Once again, same story different post: We are talking about eugenics as a specific historical program (think sterilizations, banned”inter-racial” relationships, cattle wagons and gas chambers) which serves as a prime example of what happens when governments and people panic and begin acting like spases before thinking. We are talking about bad science and falsified research to back the assumptions which led to the above horrors. Not animal husbandry or the proper and still young and growing science of human genetics.
Eugenics, as brought up by Lord Monckton and commonly understood by most is not a neutral word for a sector in genetics. It is not synonymous with medical genetics, a good but misunderstood idea with a few little mistakes here and there. The example regarding problems of consanguinity doesn’t support the validity of eugenics. Nor am I interested in the silly-buggers word game of “eugenics vs. pseudo-eugenics.” Perhaps you are hoping to start afresh under stricter rules and better ethics, to establish “neo-eugenics” or “real-honest-to-goodness-scientific-eugenics” or whatever (a tactically misguided approach given how polluted the word has become), but the eugenics we all know and love is a mix of science and pseudoscientific beliefs more accurately described as “raciology,” an ugly fraud which was peddled in the guise of pure and honest science, and was brutally enforced with a series of policies which caused massive suffering and deaths.
So again, this is not a case of science and ethics as seperate issues, this is a case of a fraudulent pseudoscientific movement (b.1900s-d.WW II) which is both grossly unscientific and morally abhorent. Are any new or different lights blinking yet? I don’t how how else I can rephrase things, and clearly other folks here are not penetrating through either.

March 18, 2012 4:17 pm

Greg House says:
March 18, 2012 at 2:15 pm
To use something as a proxy you need a cause-effect relationship. And you need to be sure, that nothing else causes the same effect.
Is there a cause-effect relationship between temperature in Central England and the global temperature?

Yes, it is a star in the centre of our solar system, usually referred to as the sun.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/CET-NAP-SSN.htm

Michael Palmer
March 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Peter Kovachev says:
March 18, 2012 at 3:27 pm

You are expelling ink as profusely as a cuttlefish, and the results are similarly clear.
The word ‘eugenics’ has many related but not identical meanings – nobody gives a rodent’s posterior which ones you consider valid or legitimate.
I recommend some light but regular physical exercise en lieu of blog trolling.

David A
March 18, 2012 4:28 pm

Hugh Pepper says:
March 18, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Your view that climate science is non repeatable is just plain wrong. I mentioned in another post that the ground-breaking work of Mann et al has been repeated seven times. Each of the other researchers, in this instance, got a similar result, thereby conforming the original hypothesis. Science is all about repetition and the journals are full of this work, which is often confirming, but not always.
==============================================
Well Me Pepper, let us see what the “team” of scientist who did these studies you are referring to thought of Mann;s work in particular, and there own work in general.
Bradley:
“I’m sure you agree–the Mann/Jones GRL paper was truly pathetic and should never have been published. I don’t want to be associated with that 2000 year “reconstruction”.
Cook:
“I am afraid that Mike is defending something that increasingly cannot be defended. He is investing too much personal stuff in this and not letting the science move ahead.”
Then Cook proposes a new climate reconstruction to sort out all the past one’s, a best effort if you will of the team..
….tentative title:
“Northern Hemisphere Temperatures Over The Past Millennium: Where Are
The Greatest Uncertainties?”
Authors: Cook, Briffa, Esper, Osborn, D’Arrigo, Bradley(?), Jones
(??), Mann (infinite?) – I am afraid the Mike and Phil are too
personally invested in things now (i.e. the 2003 GRL paper that is
probably the worst paper Phil has ever been involved in – Bradley
hates it as well), but I am willing to offer to include them if they
can contribute without just defending their past work”
==================================================
Cook next (in seven steps) articulates what he thinks can be learned from this team effort after describing it in detail…
“…7. Publish, retire, and don’t leave a forwarding address
Without trying to prejudice this work, but also because of what I
almost think I know to be the case, the results of this study will
show that we can probably say a fair bit about 100 year variability was like with any certainty i.e. we know with certainty that we know fuck-all.
Of course, none of what I have proposed has addressed the issue of
seasonality of response. So what I am suggesting is strictly an
empirical comparison of published 1000 year NH reconstructions
because many of the same tree-ring proxies get used in both seasonal
and annual recons anyway. So all I care about is how the recons
differ and where they differ most in frequency and time without any
direct consideration of their TRUE association with observed
temperatures.”
Wow, now having trashed all the reconstructions as junk, Cook the desribes how to make them appear credible in the next IPCC report…
” I think this is exactly the kind of study that needs to be done
before the next IPCC assessment. But to give it credibility, it has
to have a reasonably broad spectrum of authors to avoid looking like
a biased attack paper, i.e. like Soon and Balliunas.”
So Mr Pepper, you are “defending the indefensible”
I suggest you read the paper by McShane and Wyner in The Annals of Applied Statistics (Vol. 5, No. 1, p. 5-44). You can see in their study they found that random noise was as effective as the proxies processed by the Mann algorithm in predicting temperatures. As they put it “random series that are independent of global temperature are as effective or more effective than the proxies at predicting global annual temperatures in the instrumental period.
Dr. Jonathan Jones, Professor of Physics, Brasenose College, Oxford University made on the Bishop Hill blog ( http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2011/12/2/tim-barnett-on-the-hockey-stick.html ) at December 3, 2011 at 6:11 PM. Professor Jones makes an unequivocal condemnation of the “Hockey Stick” and much of climatology.
Do you have a scientific reason for ignoring the conclusion of all of these scientists or of Prof. Wegman who concluded in a report to Congress that the Mann conclusions were not statistically valid? (You may recall that Dr. Gerry North, who was head of an NAS panel reviewing climate reconstructions testified under oath that he agreed with the conclusion of the Wegman report).

climatebeagle
March 18, 2012 4:28 pm

Mazza says:
” I do wish this notion – that a paper that has been peer reviewed has been in some way authenticated or shown to be “right” – would go away. All that peer review is designed to do is to indicate that the work is not prima facie rubbish.”
I strongly agree, wonder what can be done about it. The other side of course is that a paper/blog post/article can be 100% correct without being peer reviewed. Most likely in the future this will be the direction of scientific papers, self-published online and survive/fail on open-source style continual debate, rather than a select few peer-reviewers being gatekeepers.

March 18, 2012 4:31 pm

Hugh Pepper says:
“Read Michael Mann’s book… From Mann’s references you can locate the original research.”
I think I’ll pass on Mann’s self-serving propaganda. I prefer science to science fiction.
BTW, still waiting for those citations showing that Mann’s MBH98/99 papers have been “replicated seven times.” That’s a new one, so I’d like to see the source. While you’re at it, Hugh, show us where Mann’s original MBH99 graph was published by the IPCC after 2007.

Hugh Pepper
Reply to  Smokey
March 18, 2012 4:38 pm

With just a little effort Smokey you will discover that Mann’s original hypothesis s now accepted in the climate science community, that is by the people who devote their lives to the study of climate systems. I’m sorry, you may actually have to read Mann’s book to discover that the science of paleoclimatology is robust.

March 18, 2012 4:39 pm

Is this what the Professor and his ilk really want?
Effective World Government Will Be Needed to Stave Off Climate Catastrophe
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/03/17/effective-world-government-will-still-be-needed-to-stave-off-climate-catastrophe/

Greg House
March 18, 2012 4:58 pm

LamontT says:
March 18, 2012 at 9:12 am
In other words if it was a warming trend in Central England then there was a warming trend in the rest of the world and if there was a cooling trend in Central England there was a cooling trend in the rest of the world. So because of this we can look at the records back to the 1600′s and make general conclusions about what was happening in the rest of the world.
======================================================
No, we can not. What you suggest is actually a variation of the not so rare mistake: confusing correlation with causality.
Correlation alone is not enough. I’ll give you a simple example. Mr. Smith is 95 years old and he always votes for the presidential candidate, who wins the election. Like 20 times in succession. This is a perfect correlation of 100%, isn’t it? So, there is no need to hold the next presidential elections, we can simply ask Mr. Smith, who apparently can be used as a proxy for the whole country.
Or another one about projections in the past. The district attorney Ms.Hard has won all the 1234 cases she represented over the past 30 years. What a nice correlation. But before that she lost one case and the guy was declared not guilty. Because of the correlation it must be clear, that the court had made a mistake hence the guy should be put in jail immediately.
Maybe you can agree with me that what the modern climate science has been doing is not much different from what I described above.
Actually, we should ask the question: is the weather station network (and it’s record) representative for the whole world? If you think it is, please give me a reference to a scientific paper where it is proven. I think it is a legitimate question, because apparently not any set of thermometers is automatically representative for the whole world.

March 18, 2012 5:07 pm

The great divider in my observation between CAGW adherents and opponents is curiosity. CAGW proponents appear to miss a basic curiosity. They know things already, nothing new to learn, the science is settled, etc.
The most basic trait of a “true” scientist as I see it is curiosity. Not some education, or title, or a set of strict rules to follow. It all starts and is maintained by an ongoing fascination and curiosity about how the world is and how it operates. All the rest flows from this.
One of the big reasons I turn my back on proponents of CAGW is they always sing the same tune. Nothing new to learn from them. Even if they would be right: wow are they boring. And the main reason for visiting WUWT is: so much to learn! Open debate, different opinions, and a lot of facts. Plenty for the curious mind.

March 18, 2012 5:42 pm

Hugh Pepper (March 17, 2012 at 12:56 pm):
While you criticise Mr. Monckton for having offered no hypothesis which could be validated through research, you fail to criticise the climatologists of the consensus for exhibiting the same failing. Why the selective critique?

johanna
March 18, 2012 5:57 pm

Constitutionalist says:
March 18, 2012 at 6:26 am
johanna says:
March 18, 2012 at 5:15 am
>Michael, let’s just clear up straightaway that selectively breeding cattle for bulk or sheep for wool or dogs for the shape currently in favour with show judges is not the same as eugenics.
>I am not confusing ethics and science.
Yes you certainly are confusing ethics and science. Mistakes were certainly made in associating some traits and diseases with genetic origins but there were also instances where there was no mistake. Huntington’s disease is a prime example of no mistake. Today genetic testing can be cheaply and easily done to identify individuals who carry the gene for it before they are old enough to reproduce and before diagnostic symptoms show up in middle age. Testing and sterilizing carriers would be eugenics and it would work to at least some degree in reducing the incidence of Huntington’s. Whether or not that should be done is an ethical question not a scientific one. Eugenics as practiced 80+ years ago would not have had the precision it would have today but would have still worked as well as it does in animal breeding. Wolves didn’t turn into dogs voluntarily yet the big difference between a livestock guard dog and a wolf is entirely mental. Dogs that attacked the livestock were killed and those that attacked wolves and protected livestock were bred. It works and would work for humans too on a purely technical basis. It’s the moral implications that are unpalletable although that moral objection appears to be more a matter of fashion than anything else as eugenics was readily embraced by “good” Christian Americans in the day.
——————————————————————————-
Honestly, I can’t work out whether you are deliberately being obtuse or just plain ignorant.
Eugenics as a public policy and pseudo-science has nothing to do with your example regarding Huntington’s disease. Thanks to modern genetic science, it is possible for people to voluntarily be screened for serious heritable conditions such as Huntington’s. There is no dispute about either the existence or the heritability of this disease. They then have a range of options (again, all voluntary) to minimise or eliminate the risk of transferring the disease to their children. That means that individuals can voluntarily choose at every step what they want to do, or not do. It is not State sanctioned ‘cleansing’ of the gene pool, which is what eugenics was about.
Then you typify the ignorance that pervades proponents of this rubbish science by claiming:
“Wolves didn’t turn into dogs voluntarily yet the big difference between a livestock guard dog and a wolf is entirely mental. Dogs that attacked the livestock were killed and those that attacked wolves and protected livestock were bred. It works and would work for humans too on a purely technical basis.”
Wolves didn’t ‘turn into’ dogs. They have a common ancestor, a distinction that, like the whole discussion, is clearly too subtle for you to understand.

March 18, 2012 6:08 pm

Nice Hijack, Hugh Pepper. As things heat up, your spelling and grammar disintegrate, though. But the content remains the same. Snark, snark, and yet more snark. Most interesting.

March 18, 2012 6:36 pm

Hugh Pepper said March 18, 2012 at 3:20 pm

Read Michael Mann’s book Rocky. There are several references to this research in the book. From Mann’s references you can locate the original research.

No, you provide the references. Who wants to spend money only to discover that you are lying through your teeth? Put up, or shut up!

March 18, 2012 6:49 pm

Apropos DDT, it was usually replaced by organophosphates in agriculture. You can read some about those materials here. As a rural volunteer firefighter the Git had to be very careful when the bushfires consumed farm sheds containing such materials.

Depending on the degree of intoxication, symptoms may include:
Nervousness/Restlessness
Miosis (contraction of the pupil)
Rhinorrhea (runny nose), excessive salivation
Dyspnea (difficulty in breathing due to bronchoconstriction/secretions)
Sweating
Bradycardia (slow heartbeat)
Tachycardia (fast heartbeat)
Loss of consciousness
Convulsions
Flaccid paralysis
Loss of bladder and bowel control
Apnea (breathing stopped)

In the case of apnea, you can’t use mouth to mouth (unless you want to share the victim’s symptoms); you just get to watch the victim die.

dp
March 18, 2012 6:56 pm

markstoval says:
March 18, 2012 at 12:45 pm
“I love the man and his gifts for debate but he’s mixed up the freedom of speech to include a guarantee of an audience.”
He was invited to a public institution that receives millions each year in federal funds. The right of all of us to hear an invited guest in a public venue is covered under the first amendment. A small group tried to prevent all interested parties from hearing the invited guest. (typical “progressive” behavior I might add)
Seek legal advice on this if you still don’t see it.

They were their to oppose him. That is allowed. They passed no law, they failed at their task if it was to prevent his speaking, but nothing they did was against the constitution. They were, in fact exercising their first amendment rights. He was privileged to have the audience – that was a gift, not a right. However – both he and I were speaking in the general case of the first amendment, not this specific case. It does not protect his right to an audience. He has none.

March 18, 2012 7:01 pm

Hugh Pepper says:
“With just a little effort Smokey you will discover that Mann’s original hypothesis s now accepted in the climate science community, that is by the people who devote their lives to the study of climate systems.”
I have discovered no such thing, and I have put more than ‘just a little effort’ into this thread, providing you personally with literally dozens of citations that refute your claims. Your response to everyone here is to spout baseless opinion; opinion that has been shown to be flat wrong.
So instead of babbling your debunked talking points, provide specific citations showing that Mann’s original hypothesis conjecture [MBH98/99] has been validated seven (7) times. You made that preposterous claim, now I challenge you to back it up with specific, legitimate, verifiable citations — or admit that you simply fabricated that claim.
Keep in mind that rather than having his work validated “seven times”, Michael Mann was forced to issue a Correction regarding his own paper. A Correction is a fairly rare occurrence, and it only happens when there are major errors uncovered. In Mann’s case, the errors were uncovered by Steve McIntyre and Ross McKitrick.
Time to man up if you can, Pepper, and provide those seven citations that you claim exist. Or everyone will see that you’re just making up stories as you go along.

Larry in Texas
March 18, 2012 7:54 pm

Michael Palmer says:
March 17, 2012 at 1:07 pm
“Eugenics may or may not work – the fact of the matter is that it has not been tried (and I’m not suggesting that it should). The extermination campaigns of the Nazis may have been influenced by, but certainly are not the same as a planned breeding program; nor can it be assumed that most people who would support planned breeding would support murder.”
That statement is one of the most historically illiterate I’ve read on this site (aside from some of the statements made by the usual trolls on this website). I suggest you read the following pieces about the Lebensborn program in Nazi Germany, and then tell me that eugenics wasn’t the same thing as a “planned breeding program.”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,446978,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn

Larry in Texas
March 18, 2012 8:17 pm

Michael Palmer says:
March 18, 2012 at 1:30 pm
I’ll try this again, as my first try didn’t get through for some reason.
Michael, here is what you said at 1:07 pm:
“Eugenics may or may not work – the fact of the matter is that it has not been tried (and I’m not suggesting that it should). The extermination campaigns of the Nazis may have been influenced by, but certainly are not the same as a planned breeding program; nor can it be assumed that most people who would support planned breeding would support murder.”
I suggest that your statement is ignorant of the history of Nazi Germany, especially in that the program cited below was also a larger part of Nazi ideology and racial policy. Here are a couple of links for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/world/europe/07nazi.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,446978,00.html
Read these and then tell me that “eugenics” doesn’t include a planned breeding program or wasn’t an important of it in Nazi Germany. Regardless of the myriad of ways that you might define “eugenics.”

March 18, 2012 8:27 pm

You are all missing the point.
Having something validated 7 or 70 or 700 or 7,000 times is meaningless in terms of the scientific method, if that same “thing” can be invalidated even once.
The extremists warmists “models” have been proven catastrophically (ha-ha) wrong not just once, but over and over and over again, not by some competing scientific society, but by reality itself.
They are wrong. All that is left is the (concededly difficult) task of unwinding the billions upon billions of dollars of incentives that have led these mock-scientists and their UN “overlords” to their positions of temporary “authority”.
It will take time, but it is now as inexorable as gravity itself. The earth will have stopped warming, despite massive continuing increases in man-made CO2, it will now begin to cool with the solar cycle (you know, that hot, bright thing in the sky), and our grand children will be taught the same fears that I was taught back in school in the 1970s–that we are all in imminent danger of a new ice age.
Funny, that.

March 18, 2012 8:49 pm

Hugh Pepper,
That is not a validation of Michael Mann, much less the seven (7) validations you claimed. Using Mann’s own self-serving apologia for his anti-science hardly qualifies as a citation.
Either provide 7 verifiable citations for your mendacious claim that Mann’s MBH98/99 paper has been validated, as you previously asserted, or concede that you were making it up.
You continue to babble your alarmist talking points; you are doing nothing except expressing your repeatedly debunked nonsense. Have you no sense of shame at all?? You are lying outright, in the hope that others will accept your fibs based on your say-so, and nothing more.
Last chance: provide seven verifiable citations showing that Michael Mann’s MBH98/99 papers have been rigorously confirmed, or admit that his conjecture has been falsified. Hugh Pepper’s credibility is on the line. What will Pepper do? Own up? Or continue to prevaricate?

Hugh Pepper
Reply to  dbstealey
March 19, 2012 7:39 am

I am not going to play your game Smokey. You can do your own investigation of the evidence. it’s out there in the form of thousands of independent studies, and summarized in books written by authors much more expert than me. If you only read Soon, Baliunas, Lindzen, Michaels and a few others, you will have a distorted, even false, impression of the reality. The climate scientists who publish their work in the accepted, peer reviewed fashion, who actually do research, have credibility. The rest……not so much!

Mike Wryley
March 18, 2012 8:54 pm

Ever notice what the lefty “utter disgust and sheer anger” crowd has an abundance of ? Hubris. They are the only ones with the vision and foresight to determine what the rest of us need without regard to cost or consequences. Mandate CFLs and oh by the way, put your domestic incandescent lamp industry out of business for good measure. Provide tax incentives for wind power that will double or triple the cost of electricity for rich and poor alike. Find a Twinkie in little Johnny’s lunchbox, confiscate the kid’s meal and give him an “approved” one. The CO2 scam has generated more useless bureaucracies, unproductive processes in business and industry, and unwarranted economic distortions to the marketplace, and probably rivals soviet communism
in the FUBAR quotient. While the professional meddler will always be with us, we should make damn sure that public money does not continue to feed these clowns.

Andrew
March 18, 2012 8:54 pm

C’mon Pepper stop stalling – otherwise we will necessarily have to assume that you are unable to substantiate your foolish and frankly hysterically funny claim that the con-Mann’s fabricated findings have been independently varified (repeated) no less than 7 times!!
As Smokey (above) has implied: time to put up or shut up.
…so list the citations…

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