NASA and multi-year Arctic ice and historical context

Over at NASA, they have a press release about old Arctic sea ice disappearing since 1980, including a helpful comparison widget that splits the before and after for comparison. I’ll run it in full below followed by comments.

NASA Finds Thickest Parts of Arctic Ice Cap Melting Faster

This interactive illustrates how perennial sea ice has declined from 1980 to 2012. The bright white central mass shows the perennial sea ice while the larger light blue area shows the full extent of the winter sea ice including the average annual sea ice during the months of November, December and January. The data shown here were compiled by NASA senior research scientist Josefino Comiso from NASA's Nimbus-7 satellite and the U.S. Department of Defense's Defense Meteorological Satellite Program. Credit: NASA/Goddard Scientific Visualization Studio.

› View 1980 image

› View 2012 image

GREENBELT, Md. — A new NASA study revealed that the oldest and thickest Arctic sea ice is disappearing at a faster rate than the younger and thinner ice at the edges of the Arctic Ocean’s floating ice cap.

The thicker ice, known as multi-year ice, survives through the cyclical summer melt season, when young ice that has formed over winter just as quickly melts again. The rapid disappearance of older ice makes Arctic sea ice even more vulnerable to further decline in the summer, said Joey Comiso, senior scientist at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., and author of the study, which was recently published in Journal of Climate.

The new research takes a closer look at how multi-year ice, ice that has made it through at least two summers, has diminished with each passing winter over the last three decades. Multi-year ice “extent” – which includes all areas of the Arctic Ocean where multi-year ice covers at least 15 percent of the ocean surface – is diminishing at a rate of -15.1 percent per decade, the study found.

There’s another measurement that allows researchers to analyze how the ice cap evolves: multi-year ice “area,” which discards areas of open water among ice floes and focuses exclusively on the regions of the Arctic Ocean that are completely covered by multi-year ice. Sea ice area is always smaller than sea ice extent, and it gives scientists the information needed to estimate the total volume of ice in the Arctic Ocean. Comiso found that multi-year ice area is shrinking even faster than multi-year ice extent, by -17.2 percent per decade.

“The average thickness of the Arctic sea ice cover is declining because it is rapidly losing its thick component, the multi-year ice. At the same time, the surface temperature in the Arctic is going up, which results in a shorter ice-forming season,” Comiso said. “It would take a persistent cold spell for most multi-year sea ice and other ice types to grow thick enough in the winter to survive the summer melt season and reverse the trend.”

Scientists differentiate multi-year ice from both seasonal ice, which comes and goes each year, and “perennial” ice, defined as all ice that has survived at least one summer. In other words: all multi-year ice is perennial ice, but not all perennial ice is multi-year ice (it can also be second-year ice).

Comiso found that perennial ice extent is shrinking at a rate of -12.2 percent per decade, while its area is declining at a rate of -13.5 percent per decade. These numbers indicate that the thickest ice, multiyear-ice, is declining faster than the other perennial ice that surrounds it.

As perennial ice retreated in the last three decades, it opened up new areas of the Arctic Ocean that could then be covered by seasonal ice in the winter. A larger volume of younger ice meant that a larger portion of it made it through the summer and was available to form second-year ice. This is likely the reason why the perennial ice cover, which includes second year ice, is not declining as rapidly as the multiyear ice cover, Comiso said.

=========================================================

One of the most often complained about things from icy fanatical folks like Tamino (aka Grant Foster) and Neven Acropolis on their blogs is “cherry picking”.

Generally, cherry picking claims are applied when you pick a section out of datasets, and use that short section to draw a conclusion. For example, over at Steve Goddard’s blog he has nice multi-year sea ice plot from NSIDC where he’s suggesting the short term gain in 2 and 3 year old multi-year ice is significant against the larger down trend.

ScreenHunter 64 Mar. 01 01.52 NASA Caught Lying Again

The ongoing loss of 4 and 5 year old ice would tend to confirm the premise of the NASA article.

But I want to expand the scope a bit. For the first time in history, starting about 1980 with the advent of satellite remote sensing, we have geophysical data we’ve never had before. The trouble is, that 30+ year period from 1980-2012 is just barely over a 30 year climate normals period. We don’t know what sea ice extent and age trends were before that, as there really aren’t any good data on the Arctic ice pack prior to 1980.

For example if you visit the Wikipedia page Polar Ice Packs, you won’t find anything about historical sea ice data prior to that, but plenty about recent declines. They do though have a century scale model from 1950 to 2050 that posits a loss of thickness.

I’m not sure where they got that high resolution data for 1955, since we didn’t have any satellites then (Sputnik launched in 1957 and had no remote sensing capability, only a radio beacon beeper so you could track it) and we didn’t have under the ice submarines (to measure ice thickness) then either as the USS Nautilus (SSN-571) was the first vessel to complete a submerged transit beneath the North Pole on August 3, 1958.

Even the USS Skate (SSN-578) didn’t surface at the North Pole through the ice until 1959. Here’s that photo again that drives Tamino and Neven crazy when they see it because it shows open water in the Arctic in 1958:

Skate (SSN-578), surfaced in the Arctic August 1958. US Navy photo

From John Daly: (added)

For example, one crew member aboard the USS Skate which surfaced at the North Pole in 1959 and numerous other locations during Arctic cruises in 1958 and 1959 said:

“the Skate found open water both in the summer and following winter. We surfaced near the North Pole in the winter through thin ice less than 2 feet thick. The ice moves from Alaska to Iceland and the wind and tides causes open water as the ice breaks up. The Ice at the polar ice cap is an average of 6-8 feet thick, but with the wind and tides the ice will crack and open into large polynyas (areas of open water), these areas will refreeze over with thin ice. We had sonar equipment that would find these open or thin areas to come up through, thus limiting any damage to the submarine. The ice would also close in and cover these areas crushing together making large ice ridges both above and below the water. We came up through a very large opening in 1958 that was 1/2 mile long and 200 yards wide. The wind came up and closed the opening within 2 hours. On both trips we were able to find open water. We were not able to surface through ice thicker than 3 feet.”

Hester, James E., Personal email communication, December 2000

More here

So where does NOAA get 1955 high resolution data on Arctic sea ice thickness? One wonders. Wikipedia cites the source as http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/visualization-gallery but when you go there, there’s no record of the plot. Even when you go to the page at GFDL for the graphics used in IPCC’s AR4, you don’t find this visualization anywhere, nor do they have any data prior to 1980 to visualize with.

In fact it seems the Wikipedia source page is the only place that 1955-2055 visualization exists anymore. Perhaps it has been deep-sixed at NOAA after somebody pointed out the folly of it like I did with another visualization blunder from the same group.

Back to the main point.

You can plot, model, and visualize all you want, but there’s just no good sea ice thickness nor extent data prior to 1980 when satellite remote sensing came on the scene, yet we do have anecdotal evidence of previous Arctic ice retreats. For example, this now famous report from 1922 that first appeared in the Washington Post.

changing-artic_monthly_wx_review_intro.png

Sailing all the way to 81° 29 minutes North. That sure beats the Catlin expeditions and the recent Row to the Pole (which never actually made it to a pole of any kind).

In fact, so little ice has never before been noted.

But do we have any Arctic wide data for 1922? No. We also don’t have any Arctic wide data for the Little Ice Age (LIA), The Medieval Warm Period (MWP), Dark Ages Cold Period (DACP) and the Roman Warm Period (RWP). We do however have temperature reconstructions from Ljungqvist (2010) like the one below:

Reconstructed extra-tropical (30-90°N) mean decadal temperature variations relative to the 1961-1990 mean of the variance-adjusted 30-90°N CRUTEM3+HadSST2 instrumental temperature data of Brohan et al. (2006) and Rayner et al. (2006), showing the approximate locations of the Roman Warm Period (RWP), Dark Ages Cold Period (DACP), Medieval Warm Period (MWP), Little Ice Age (LIA) and Current Warm Period (CEP). Adapted from Ljungqvist (2010).
These alternating warm/cold periods, in Ljungqvist’s words: (Source CO2 Science)

“probably represent the much discussed quasi-cyclical c. 1470 ± 500-year Bond Cycles (Bond and Lotti, 1995; O’Brien et al., 1995; Bond et al., 1997, 2001; Oppo, 1997),” which “affected both Scandinavia and northwest North America synchronically (Denton and Karlen, 1973)” and have “subsequently also been observed in China (Hong et al., 2009a,b), the mid-latitude North Pacific (Isono et al., 2009) and in North America (Viau et al., 2006), and have been shown to very likely have affected the whole Northern Hemisphere during the Holocene (Butikofer, 2007; Wanner et al., 2008; Wanner and Butikofer, 2008), or even been global (Mayewski et al., 2004).”

Now it could be argued strongly that since we are in the Current Warm Period (CWP) and Arctic Sea Ice is on the decline, and the rise of the machines in the industrial age coincides with that, that man has the greatest influence on Arctic Sea Ice. That may be, but we just don’t know. We have no good ice data prior to 1980. We do however have suggestions that much of Earth’s climate and responses to it (like Arctic sea ice) is cyclic.

And with only just over 30 years of good sea ice data, how does one determine if this downturn isn’t just part of a regular cycle? For all we know, we may be simply looking at one part of a larger cycle. In fact, a recent peer reviewed paper says “there appear to have been periods of ice free summers in the central Arctic Ocean” in the early Holocene, about 10-11,000 years ago

In that larger context, using 30 years of Arctic sea ice data to draw conclusions and model out to 2050 might very well be viewed as an exercise in cherry picking.

Suggestions by NASA in 2007, in Smedsrud Et Al 2011 and recently in Wang, Song, and Curry suggest that wind patterns are a big factor in the Arctic puzzle. There’s also direct evidence that soot from the industrialization of Asia is collecting in the Arctic and could be a factor in albedo changes in the Arctic which contribute to ice loss.

Sea ice is a complex problem, and my personal view is that we simply don’t know enough about its behavior in the larger context to demonstrate a causal relationship with the recent global temperature increases.

And speaking of global, then there’s that pesky Antarctic, which has an upward trend in sea ice area:

Image from Jeff Condon via his Air Vent blog.

And then of course, unless you believe Steig’s (2009) application of Mannian statistical madness, there’s no evidence that Antarctica has any statistically significant temperature trend. That claim has been disproved by O’Donnell et al 2010.

Global sea ice hasn’t varied all that much in 30 years, and I for one, am just not all that worried about it. Especially since the Great Pacific Climate Shift occurred right about the start of the satellite data, and you all know what our friends tell us about starting conditions.

Image above from this excellent essay on The Air Vent

You can track sea ice in the NH and SH on WUWT’s sea ice page.

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rbateman
March 1, 2012 5:42 pm

Oh, that pesky Skate surfacing in thin ice.
It’s all Time’s fault. But back in the late 50’s, nobody knew any better.

Philip Bradley
March 1, 2012 5:51 pm

The topic here is faster melting of older multi-year ice.
To those advocating GHGs, atmospheric temperatures and SSTs as the cause of Arctic ice melt.
By what mechanism will increasing GHGs, increasing atmospheric temperatures, and/or increasing SSTs disproportionately melt older thicker ice?

kadaka (KD Knoebel)
March 1, 2012 6:05 pm

Jimbo said on March 1, 2012 at 4:51 pm (bold added):

Please note that they include co2 to get pass peer review.

Peer reviewed gas passing?

Bart
March 1, 2012 6:25 pm

RobW March 1, 2012 at 11:20 am is exactly right. The beginning of the data is most likely a maximum after the 1940-1970 cooling, and we hit the maximum in 2007 from the 1970-2000 warming part of the ~60 year climate cycle.
And, wouldn’t Bruce March 1, 2012 at 5:04 pm be correct in saying the melt has to come from below, as the atmospheric temperature never gets above 0 degC up there? That would explain why there is a lag of perhaps a decade between the end of a warming/cooling phase and the minimum/maximum ice cover.

John F. Hultquist
March 1, 2012 6:27 pm

Bruce says:
March 1, 2012 at 5:04 pm
“There is NO melt water on the top surface of a glacier.

Perhaps, not on your trek, but:
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/164322main_moulin-behar-browse.jpg

Editor
March 1, 2012 6:32 pm

“Suggestions by NASA in 2007, in Smedsrud Et Al 2011 and recently in Wang, Song, and Curry suggest that wind patterns are a big factor in the Arctic puzzle.”
Yes, per this October, 1 2007 NASA article;
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/quikscat-20071001.html
Son V. Nghiem of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, said that “the rapid decline in winter perennial ice the past two years was caused by unusual winds. “Unusual atmospheric conditions set up wind patterns that compressed the sea ice, loaded it into the Transpolar Drift Stream and then sped its flow out of the Arctic,” he said. When that sea ice reached lower latitudes, it rapidly melted in the warmer waters.
“The winds causing this trend in ice reduction were set up by an unusual pattern of atmospheric pressure that began at the beginning of this century,” Nghiem said.”
Per this 2001 paper, “Fram Strait Ice Fluxes and Atmospheric Circulation: 1950–2000″ by Torgny Vinje published in the American Meteorological Society Journal of Climatet;
“The corresponding decadal maximum change in the Arctic Ocean ice thickness is of the order of 0.8 m. These temporal wind-induced variations may help explain observed changes in portions of the Arctic Ocean ice cover over the last decades. Due to an increasing rate in the ice drainage through the Fram Strait during the 1990s, this decade is characterized by a state of decreasing ice thickness in the Arctic Ocean.”
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0442%282001%29014%3C3508%3AFSIFAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2
This 2004 paper “Variations in the Age of Arctic Sea-ice and Summer Sea-ice Extent” by Ignatius G. Rigor & John M. Wallace, states that;
“The winter AO-index explains as much as 64% of the variance in summer sea-ice extent in the Eurasian sector, but the winter and summer AO-indices combined explain less than 20% of the variance along the Alaskan coast, where the age of sea-ice explains over 50% of the year-to year variability. If this interpretation is correct, low summer sea-ice extents are likely to persist for at least a few years. However, it is conceivable that, given an extended interval of low-index AO conditions, ice thickness and summertime sea-ice extent could gradually return to the levels characteristic of the 1980′s.”
http://seaice.apl.washington.edu/
This 2007 paper “Rapid reduction of Arctic perennial sea ice” by Nghiem, Rigor, Perovich, Clemente-Colo, Weatherly and Neumann states that;
“Perennial-ice extent loss in March within the DM domain was noticeable after the 1960s, and the loss became more rapid in the 2000s when QSCAT observations were available to verify the model results. QSCAT data also revealed mechanisms contributing to the perennial-ice extent loss: ice compression toward the western Arctic, ice loading into the Transpolar Drift (TD) together with an acceleration of the TD carrying excessive ice out of Fram Strait, and ice export to Baffin Bay.”
http://seaice.apl.washington.edu/Papers/NghiemEtal2007_MYreduction.pdf
This 2010 paper, “Influence of winter and summer surface wind anomalies on summer Arctic sea ice extent” by Masayo Ogi, Koji Yamazaki and John M. Wallace, published in Geophysical Research Letters states that;
“We have shown results indicating that wind‐induced, year‐to‐year differences in the rate of flow of ice toward and through Fram Strait play an important role in modulating September SIE on a year‐to‐year basis and that a trend toward an increased wind‐induced rate of flow has contributed to the decline in the areal coverage of Arctic summer sea ice.”
http://www.jamstec.go.jp/frcgc/research/d2/masayo.ogi/2009GL042356.pdf
This 2011 paper, “Recent wind driven high sea ice export in the Fram Strait contributes to Arctic sea ice decline”, submitted to The Cryosphere by L. H. Smedsrud, et al. used;
“geostrophic winds derived from reanalysis data to calculate the Fram Strait ice area export back to 1957, finding that the sea ice area export recently is about 25 % larger than during the 1960’s.”
http://www.the-cryosphere-discuss.net/5/1311/2011/tcd-5-1311-2011-print.pdf
You can see can get a sense of the process occurring by watching this 1 year Arctic Sea Ice Concentration Animation from the Naval Research Laboratory:
http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/hycomARC/navo/arcticice_nowcast_anim365d.gif
Neven kept a Fram Strait transport play by play last summer:
http://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2011/07/2011-fram-strait-animation.html
“Update August 8th: Added images from the previous three days. Some serious ice transport going on there. If this keeps up…”
The NASA article Anthony posted says it all, “The thicker ice, known as multi-year ice, survives through the cyclical summer melt season”, i.e. multi-year ice doesn’t melt away during the summer, unless it is transported into warmer waters by wind.

Editor
March 1, 2012 7:03 pm

“There’s also direct evidence that soot from the industrialization of Asia is collecting in the Arctic and could be a factor in albedo changes in the Arctic which contribute to ice loss.”
Yes, Particulates;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates
especially Soot/Black Carbon;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_carbon
may also contribute to Sea Ice loss:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100728092617.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/27/MN5H1EK6BV.DTL
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/25/soot-ahoy-ship-traffic-in-the-arctic/
http://www.agu.org/news/press/pr_archives/2010/2010-20.shtml
Per the Arctic Marine Shipping Assessment 2009 Report; http://www.pame.is/images/stories/PDF_Files/AMSA_2009_Report_2nd_print.pdf
Page 5 – “Black carbon emissions from ships operating in the Arctic may have
regional impacts by accelerating ice melt.”
Page 142 – Black carbon is a component of particulate matter produced by marine vessels through the incomplete oxidation of diesel fuel. The release and deposition of BC in the Arctic region is of particular concern because of the effect it has on reducing the albedo (reflectivity) of sea ice and snow. When solar radiation is applied, reduced albedo increases the rate of ice and snow melt significantly, resulting in more open water, and thereby reducing the regional albedo further. In the Arctic region in 2004, approximately 1,180 metric tons of black carbon was released, representing a small proportion of the estimated 71,000 to 160,000 metric tons released around the globe annually. However, the region-specific effects of black carbon indicate that even small amounts could have a potentially disproportionate impact on ice melt and warming in the region. More research is needed to determine the level of impact this could have on ice melt acceleration in the Arctic and the potential benefits from limiting ships’ BC emissions when operating near to or in ice-covered regions. The potential impacts of black carbon should also be a point of consideration when weighing the costs and benefits of using in-situ burning of oil in spill response situations.”
And then there are the non-Black Carbon/Soot based impact of Ship Traffic including Supply/Bulk Shipping, Fishing, Passenger/Cruise Ships and Icebreakers:
Arctic Marine Shipping Assessment 2009 Report Page 4;
“There were approximately 6,000 individual vessels, many making multiple voyages, in the Arctic region during the AMSA survey year; half of these were operating on the Great Circle Route in the North Pacific that crosses the Aleutian Islands. Of the 6,000 vessels reported, approximately 1,600 were fishing vessels.”
Arctic Marine Shipping Assessment 2009 Report Pages 141 – 142;
“The AMSA has developed the world’s first activity-based estimate of Arctic marine shipping emissions using empirical data for shipping reported by Arctic Council member states. Emissions were calculated for each vessel-trip for which data was available for the base year 2004. The 515,000 trips analyzed represent about 14.2 million km of distance traveled (or 7.7 million nautical miles) by transport vessels; fishing vessels represent over 15,000 fishing vessel days at sea for 2004. Some results could be an underestimation of current emissions, given potential underreporting bias and anecdotal reports of recent growth in international shipping and trade through the Arctic.”
Arctic Marine Shipping Assessment 2009 Report on Page 79;
“A specific example of where cruise ship traffic is increasing at a rapid rate is off the coast of Greenland. As Table 5.3 shows, cruise ship visits and the number of passengers visiting Greenland has increased significantly between 2003 and 2008. For example, between 2006 and 2007, port calls into Greenland increased from 157 to 222 cruise ships. The number of port calls in 2006 combined for a total of 22,051 passengers, a number that represents nearly half of Greenland’s total 2006 population of 56,901.
In 2008, approximately 375 cruise ship port calls were scheduled for Greenland ports and harbors, more than double the number of port calls seen in 2006.”
Arctic Marine Shipping Assessment 2009 Report Page 137;
“The 2004 U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy reported that, while at sea, the average cruise-ship passenger generates about eight gallons of sewage per day and an average cruise ship can generate a total of 532,000 to 798,000 liters of sewage and 3.8 million liters of wastewater from sinks, showers and laundries each week, as well as large amounts of solid waste (garbage). The average cruise ship will also produce more than 95,000 liters of oily bilge water from engines and machinery a week. Sewage, solid waste and oily bilge water release are regulated through MARPOL. There are no restrictions on the release of treated wastewater.”
Arctic Marine Shipping Assessment 2009 Report Page 84;
“During 2004-2008, there were 33 icebreaker transits to the North Pole for science and tourism. An increasing number of icebreakers and research vessels are conducting geological and geophysical research throughout the central Arctic Ocean related to establishing the limits of the extended continental shelf under UNCLOS.”
Arctic Marine Shipping Assessment 2009 Report Page 84;
“Map 5.6 demonstrates the surge in vessel activity in the summer season, when all of the community re-supply takes place and most bulk commodities are shipped out and supplies brought in for commercial operations. Summer is also the season when all of the passenger and cruise vessels travel to the region.”
and Arctic Marine Shipping Assessment 2009 Report Page 160;
“Spring break-up to mark the start of summer navigation will vary and, as happens now in more southerly seas, shippers eager to start work will test the limits of their vessels in ice.”
http://www.pame.is/images/stories/PDF_Files/AMSA_2009_Report_2nd_print.pdf
I also wonder if the Ajurak Icebreaker trials in the Fram Strait in 2009 could have helped facilitate transport a bit, i.e.:
“Icebreaker and ice-management trials on behalf of ExxonMobil in connection with the Ajurak project. In this research expedition during September 2009 Icebreaker Oden (TransAtlantic management) and Icebreaker Fennica was performing various tests for ExxonMobil.”
http://www.rabt.se/Offshoreicebreaking/Reference-list/
There is no doubt that the .336 K/C per decade increase in Northern Polar RSS Lower Troposphere Temperatures;
ftp://ftp.ssmi.com/msu/graphics/tlt/plots/rss_ts_channel_tlt_northern%20polar_land_and_sea_v03_3.png
has had some influence, but it certainly isn’t the primary reason that “Multi-year ice “extent” – which includes all areas of the Arctic Ocean where multi-year ice covers at least 15 percent of the ocean surface – is diminishing at a rate of -15.1 percent per decade” and “multi-year ice area is shrinking even faster than multi-year ice extent, by -17.2 percent per decade.”
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/thick-melt.html

Philip Bradley
March 1, 2012 7:09 pm

The NASA article Anthony posted says it all, “The thicker ice, known as multi-year ice, survives through the cyclical summer melt season”, i.e. multi-year ice doesn’t melt away during the summer, unless it is transported into warmer waters by wind.
A priori reasoning makes them replace ‘shouldn’t’ with ‘doesn’t’.
Also the decreased aerosol/particulates, increased solar insolation explanation predicts lost older multi-year sea ice will be replaced by new muti-year sea ice (the 2 and 3 year ice in the graphic above), which is what’s happening.

John F. Hultquist
March 1, 2012 7:28 pm

Bart says:
March 1, 2012 at 6:25 pm
“the atmospheric temperature never gets above 0 degC

Explain this:
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

Grant
March 1, 2012 7:42 pm

Daily logs for the Skate should be available for anyone interested in taking the time to request them and read/copy them. (In Virginia I believe) It would be an interesting read.
A friend hired some guy back east to go and photo copy all the logs from the destroyer he was on in the sixties so they could be provided to his shipmates on their website.

March 1, 2012 8:10 pm

When the open leads close, they often crush together with such power they create “pressure ridges.” These are like miniature mountain ranges. I’m not sure how high they stick up, but the explorers traveling by sled tried to avoid them when possible.
One thing about pressure ridges is that they follow the “iceburg rule.” If they stick up ten feet, nine-tenths is underwater, which means they have roots sticking down ninty feet. If they stick up fifteen feet, the roots stick down one-hundred-thirty-five. And so on.
Another thing about pressure ridges is that they are not all that wide. I have heard various distances mentioned, but fifty yards, half the length of a football field, seems typical. This makes them very hard to see from outer space. On some sites, that picture arctic ice with a “zoom” option, I have been able to see these pressure ridges, if I zoom in as far as I can, but even then they are barely wide as a hair.
This makes me wonder about the ability of the sensors used to compute “average thickness,” and their ability to include the hair-thin pressure ridges that hold very thick ice. Are not the sensors basically a bounced radar beam? Can they pick up a very narrow feature?

March 1, 2012 11:22 pm

Just The Facts says:
March 1, 2012 at 6:32 pm
“Suggestions by NASA in 2007, in Smedsrud Et Al 2011 and recently in Wang, Song, and Curry suggest that wind patterns are a big factor in the Arctic puzzle.”
Yes, since winds are driven by the atmospheric pressure (the NAO), and that in the final analysis is the source of the AMO as first described here:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/theAMO-NAO.htm
but climate scientists are a somewhat ‘pompous’ not to say arrogant lot to take a note from an outsider.
But what than drives the NAO?
There is answer to it too, it could have been the sun, but relation broke in the early 1990’s, so there is only one variable left :
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/theAMO-NAO.htm

March 1, 2012 11:27 pm
Brian H
March 1, 2012 11:36 pm

Herman Pope posits a negative feedback cycle of Arctic Ice as the dominant stabilizer of current climate, responsible for holding the current benign interglacial in place for so long, unlike the brief peaking and rapid decline in temps of previous ones:
herman@popesclimatetheory.com
Loss of ice generates more air moisture/snow, which leads to cooling, which freezes over the Arctic Ocean, which cuts off the snow supply, which leads to retreat of the high-albedo snow area, which leads to warming, which leads to loss of Arctic Ice, which ….

Bart
March 2, 2012 12:21 am

John F. Hultquist says:
March 1, 2012 at 7:28 pm
“Explain this:”
Obviously, it’s a conspiracy 😉
Anyway, I asked the question, and you answered it. But, melt from below and the lag in heating or cooling the arctic ocean could still explain why ice maxima/minima appear to lag the turning points in atmospheric temperature.

Rhys Jaggar
March 2, 2012 12:50 am

I doubt real science can be done on arctic sea ice predictions before 2100, since the data simply won’t be there to allow correct modelling. You can model it all you want, but how you ‘tune’ a model without a lot of prior data I don’t know…..

Blade
March 2, 2012 12:57 am

Andrew [March 1, 2012 at 12:50 pm] says:
“Note the lack of specificity given by the submariner…Uncle Sam does know the exact locations and the exact depth of the ice…and for years they kept this a secret, due to National Security concerns. I cannot think of a valid excuse for this information not to be public. The Russian’s most assuredly have better info today than we had in the 50’s and 60’s. Heck, we have declassified the fact that we Howard Hughes salvaged a Commie sub…and last I checked…state of the art submersibles are not being readily manufactured…in any of the more sandy regions of our globe…so no threats from any peace loving peoples either…speaking as a card carrying Infidel…
I would think someone should request the details of Sea Ice in the 1950’s from the Department of the Navy…maybe…”

This is a very good point in my estimation. There is precedent for suppressed evidence (for reasons of national security) which badly influences the concurrent debate: the Venona Project was not declassified until less than a decade ago, which was unfortunately four decades too late for Joe McCarthy and all the other anti-Communist heroes that had to fight a serious battle with their best ammunition sequestered. By all means, get this stuff declassified forthwith. FOIA these suckers before they do it to us again. The reds, err greens, err watermelons I mean.
Did anyone notice this intriguing comment …

TG McCoy (Douglas DC) [March 1, 2012 at 10:28 am] says:
“Cousin’s husband was a young torpedoman on the Skate when they did that… there was a LOT of open water…”

If you are still reading this thread could you elaborate on his status? If he is still with us perhaps you might arrange for an interview of him on the record so he can at least get his important eyewitness experience documented! Maybe he has his own private photos.

Blade
March 2, 2012 1:09 am

Steven Mosher [March 1, 2012 at 11:26 am] says:
“So, is it getting warmer? yup. will that result in there being less ice in the north than there would be otherwise? yup. Is all of the loss directly a consequence of the warming? no there are other factors. Did C02 cause it all? no. The ice at the pole is retreating. Warming plays a role. Co2 plays a role in that warming. The debate should be centered on how much warming and what if anything we can do about it and what should we do.

Ignoring the condescension in Steve Mosher’s comment, and the convenient way he asks himself questions and replies to them as well, can we just cut to the chase here? How about you answer a question or two?
Steve, what should the sea ice extent be doing today, increasing, decreasing, remaining static?
Steve, what should the ‘climate’ be today when compared to the 1960’s to 1970’s mini ice-age, the same, warmer or colder?
Steve, what should the ‘climate’ be today when compared to the pre-19th century little ice-age, the same, warmer or colder?
Before you can say anything is out of the norm, you have to know the answers to those questions. Before you can say we changed the climate, you have to know what the climate would have been minus our presence.
You as a lukewarmer, very much just like the contingent of full-warmers all act like a mild warming trend (post-1980) after a mild cooling trend (60’s to 70’s) is something other than planetary SOP.
A larger point here is that just like the red/blue state election maps intentionally reversing the logical assignment of red to the Democratic Socialist party, we have a similar situation with intentional assignment of the words ‘climate change denier‘ to those of us that are actually citing ‘normal Climate Change’ as the perfectly natural situation. That makes us ‘Climate Change Supporters’ if you ask me. Those on the other side are actually the ones arguing for a static climate and are thus the actual ‘deniers’.
So cue up Casablanca … I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling Climate Change is going on in here!

REPLY: and then there’s Antarctica, an opposite anomaly all by itself. Bipolar disorder me thinks – Anthony”

I wonder why it is that I automatically thought of Mosher when I saw the words ‘bi-polar disorder’. 😉

Zac
March 2, 2012 5:05 am

Has anyone thought to ask the navy if it would release the environmental data? Every hour on the hour without fail the watchkeepers in those boats under the ice would have record such things as depth, sewater temp, salinity and position (that will be the sensitive bit). There will also be bathythermograph readings and ice thickness.

Kevin McKinney
March 2, 2012 5:19 am

I must say, I find it more than a bit odd to say that it is ‘cherry-picking’ to start at the beginning of the available data.
All in all, there seems to be little substance to this lengthy post.

phlogiston
March 2, 2012 5:50 am

This “bipolar” seesawing between hemispheres has been identified as a sign of impending end of interglacial in a recent paper:
Determining the natural length of the current interglacial
P. C. Tzedakis, J. E. T. Channell, D. A. Hodell, H. F. Kleiven & L. C. Skinner
Nature Geoscience 5, 138–141 (2012) doi:10.1038/ngeo1358
Received 23 May 2011 Accepted 28 November 2011 Published online 09 January 2012 Corrected online 10 January 2012
The timing of the hypothetical next glaciation remains unclear. Past interglacials can be used to draw analogies with the present, provided their duration is known. Here we propose that the minimum age of a glacial inception is constrained by the onset of bipolar-seesaw climate variability, which requires ice-sheets large enough to produce iceberg discharges that disrupt the ocean circulation. We identify the bipolar seesaw in ice-core and North Atlantic marine records by the appearance of a distinct phasing of interhemispheric climate and hydrographic changes and ice-rafted debris. The glacial inception during Marine Isotope sub-Stage 19c, a close analogue for the present interglacial, occurred near the summer insolation minimum, suggesting that the interglacial was not prolonged by subdued radiative forcing. Assuming that ice growth mainly responds to insolation forcing, this analogy suggests that the end of the current interglacial would occur within the next 1500 years.
“not prolonged by subdued radiative forcing” is particularly interesting, this would brush aside the former orthodoxy that the current node of weaker eccentricity oscillation means an abnormally extended interglacial (Ruddiman et al). So now we only have CO2 to save us. Still, no worries, eh?

Editor
March 2, 2012 5:55 am

Much of the multi year ice disappeared in 2007, or indeed before. I am not sure what their paper is intended to prove.
As Steve Goddard correctly points out, since 2007/2008, multi year ice has been increasing. What was 3 years last year will be 4 years this year, etc. We will have to wait till 2013 for the 5 years figure to recover.
(2008 was actually the nadir for multi year ice and not 2007 as often believed.)

anticlimactic
March 2, 2012 6:11 am

Here are some detailed descriptions of tampering [‘corrections’!] with historic Arctic monitoring station data to support the quasi-science of AGW. In real science this would cause outrage and loss of jobs, but in this quasi-science if the facts don’t fit it is perfectly acceptable to change them.
http://notrickszone.com/2012/03/01/data-tamperin-giss-caught-red-handed-manipulaing-data-to-produce-arctic-climate-history-revision/

mitchel44
March 2, 2012 7:16 am

Steve Goddard had another post on sea ice, showing an IPCC graph from the 1st report in 1990.
http://www.real-science.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/PaintImage1225.jpg
http://www.real-science.com/ipcc-early-1970s-arctic-sea-ice-persistently
So the IPCC was using data that predated the satellites in their first report, it had to come from somewhere.

Blade
March 2, 2012 7:32 am

Kevin McKinney [March 2, 2012 at 5:19 am] says:
“I must say, I find it more than a bit odd to say that it is ‘cherry-picking’ to start at the beginning of the available data.
All in all, there seems to be little substance to this lengthy post.”

If you are referring to the satellite monitoring of the Arctic which begins in 1979 there is nothing odd about calling it ‘cherry picking’ at all. There is something very convenient about it however, for the warmies, that is.
For example, if you were to start recording hourly temps at 8am your trend will show something completely different than if you started at 8pm. And if halfway through the 24-hour day you started making grand judgments and recommendations based on the available data you would be a fool. ‘After examining the available data we scientists have come to the conclusion that it is warming at a rate of 3 degrees per hour and proactive steps MUST be taken to avoid catastrophe! The science is settled’.
We just happen to be living now at a point in time where at least three identifiable cold-to-warm transitions of varying frequencies are occurring simultaneously …
[1] – Glacial Maximum to Holocene Interglacial
[2] – Little Ice Age to Modern Warm Period
[3] – 1960’s-1970’s cool period to 1990’s-2000’s warm period to
There may even be other as yet invisible but similar cold-to-warm phase changes yet to be identified. So instead of three reinforcing waves there may be more. Any one of those transitions to a reasonable person is explanation enough for the minuscule sub-one degree average temperature rise that climate geniuses assign to the past 100 years. So the catastrophic prophecies are utter insanity. The real question which will never be addressed so long as we are running around like dark age fools cowering in fear from a comet is this: where are we specifically in these various transitions of cold-to-warm-to-cold-to-warm-to…
[1] – Glacial Maximum to Holocene Interglacial to ???
[2] – Little Ice Age to Modern Warm Period to ???
[3] – 1960’s-1970’s cool period to 1990’s-2000’s warm period to ???
Where are we? Are we closer to the beginning, perfectly centered or at the tail end? No-one knows. It makes all the difference in the world though. If we actually are at the end of the Holocene, it would be idiotic to suck all the CO2 out of the atmosphere. We’re only 200ppm or so above certain death. That is to say we are living on the lower edge of atmospheric CO2 ppm, because below 200ppm or so will lead to a dead planet.
So, one partial degree average rise and the entire scientific community is turned upside down! Buckets of money are poured down the toilet bowl to satisfy these doomsayers, with Trillions more demanded. Insanity. Last time I checked, birds and people were still flying south for the winter to escape the annual 90 to 100+ degree temperature delta that occurs every six months ***. Yeah, that sub-one degree average temp rise over a hundred years is real scary.
*** That’s °F, daily max summer-winter in NorthEast USA. Max here in summer 100+°F to coldest max in winter around 10°F.or even 0°F. There have been larger and smaller than 100°F max swings in the past of course. The daily swing can be anything from 20 to 40°F or even more. Someone explain to exactly where that sub-one degree average temp rise is buried in our real world measurements? And explain how these real temps will be affected by another degree or two?