The USGS Investigates Elk

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Elk are one of the largest of the “Cervidae”, the deer family, and are one of North America’s largest mammals. Cows weight about 225 kg. (500 pounds) while bulls weigh about 320 kg (700 pounds). They are magnificent animals in the wild, and in addition they have another very important feature. They are … well … umm … no socially acceptable way to say this in a world containing vegevores but to say that elk are delicious, as many wolves or mountain lions can testify. As can I. This has not worked to their historical advantage.

Originally there were elk over much of the US. However, because of the “delicious” factor, many of the species of elk were turned into elkburger by short-sighted humans of the melanin-deficient variety. The situation in the southwestern state of Arizona is fairly typical. There, to use the lovely language of biologists, the local elk species, Merriam’s Elk, was “extirpated” just prior to 1900.

Arizona is usually thought of as a hot desert state. But the northern part of the Arizona is mountainous. I rode a freight train through northern Arizona in winter one time, and I hope to never be that cold again in my life. But the elk didn’t mind the cold, at least until we ate them all.

However, everything is not lost, humans can also repair mistakes or at least ameliorate their effects. Groups of a different species of elk were imported from Yellowstone Park from about 1910 to 1930. At first the herds were small, but nature is nothing if not fecund, and we’ve killed a lot of the elk’s natural predators (bear, wolf, mountain lion), so the main problem now is to keep the herd size down. And it is not an insignificant problem. The size of the elk herds is putting pressure on a variety of resources, both natural and human, all over the state. The Arizona Department of Game and Fish (AZDFG) has an elk management plan that lays out all that it is doing to keep the elk numbers down, and they have a big job on their hands. Their methods include regular hunting seasons; special hunting seasons; hunting seasons designed to drive elk out of a specific area; “antlerless” hunts for female elk; special permits for farmers to shoot elk that are eating their crops; hunts designed to preserve winter forage for the winter, and the like.

This is a recurring problem with large herbivores all over the planet, particularly where we’ve killed the large carnivores. There’s not a lot of food in your average blade of grass. A big animal like an elk has to eat lots and lots of vegetation just to stay alive, and even more to gain weight. And this, of course, means that wherever elk go, they will change the local ecology big-time. A herd of elk is natures mowing machine, only they’ll also mow down small trees.

Why is all of this of interest to climate science?

Figure 1. Snowfall in Flagstaff, Arizona. Pale red squares show the 17-year centered Gaussian average of the data. The airport gets more snow than the town, and as a result I have adjusted the town data so that their averages agree during the period of overlap. As you can see the match is good. The black bar shows the 95%CI for the error of the Gaussian average at the boundary of the dataset. DATA SOURCES: “History of Flagstaff,   Flagstaff Airport  Town Adjusted 

Well, some University of Montana folks, along with the US Geological Survey, have just published a paper called “Climate impacts on bird and plant communities from altered animal–plant interactions”, by Thomas E. Martin and John L. Maron, paywalled of course. (“Impacts2011). The authors make the  claim that human-caused climate change in the form of reduced snowfall around Flagstaff and in other mountain areas of Arizona is allowing the elk population to graze higher in the mountains in winter, and as a result the local ecology is changing.

This, of course, brings up several related questions:

1. Does an elk eat in the woods?

2. Has the snowfall in the Arizona mountains gone down lately?

3. Are there other factors that might push elk up into the mountains?

4. What other parts of Arizona are the elk moving into?

Question 1. Yes, elk eat in the woods, a herd of elk is a tree-trimming and mowing machine par excellence. But as is far too common in these kinds of studies, the authors can’t resist gilding the lily. Here are their photos showing what the elk can do …

Figure 2. ORIGINAL CAPTION e,f, Photos showing the decline in understory plant density in the same area of a study drainage from May 1985 (e) to May 2011 (f).

Now, I’ll buy that elk can do that kind of damage, because elk do eat in the woods, and they eat most everything. But I won’t buy that those photos are taken from the same location. They are careful to say that they are in the “same area”, but they are presented as a “before and after” combination, when they are nothing of the sort. For all I know, photo “f” may have looked like that for the last quarter century. A small point, I know, but that kind of thing rubs me the wrong way.

In any case, it is obvious to anyone who has been around them that elk eat in the woods, that they eat a lot, and that trees and their inhabitants suffer as a result. Bad elk, buncha cervine eco-criminals. Or as the authors say:

We excluded elk from one of two paired snowmelt drainages (10 ha per drainage), and replicated this paired experiment across three distant canyons. Over six years, we reversed multi-decade declines in plant and bird populations by experimentally inhibiting heavy winter herbivory associated with declining snowfall. Moreover, predation rates on songbird nests decreased in exclosures, despite higher abundances of nest predators, demonstrating the over-riding importance of habitat quality to avian recruitment.

So the authors have proven that yes, elk eat in the woods, and yes, they eat trees and understory of all kinds, and yes, when the elk do that, songbirds suffer. I would not have thought that it would take a scientific study to establish that, but I suppose it is good that they did. I would note in passing that one man’s ceiling is another mans floor, and if songbirds suffer, surely some other creature gains from having cleared out understory, and that includes fire protection for all the forest animals … but I digress. According to AGw supporters, climate change can only bring negative outcomes and no benefits, it is well known.

Regarding the second question, I see no evidence of any unusual decrease in snowfall. They do a typical AGW thing in Impacts2011, in their Figure (1a, not shown) they show only the snowfall from 1985 onwards. As you can see in Figure 1, 1985 was somewhere near the peak of the recorded historical swings. Overall, there is no such sign of decline in snowfall. There is a slight upward trend in the Flagstaff snowfall since 1948, but the trend is not statistically significant, nor is the level of modern snowfall historically unusual.

In addition, they provide absolutely no citation for their snowfall numbers. The closest that they come is when they say:

Snowfall at our study area has declined over the past 25 years (Fig. 1a), typical of what has occurred across western North America and other mountain regions of the world 1,7,8.

Reference 1 is the IPCC Bible, except of course they have neglected to give us the chapter and verse of the sermon. Heck, they don’t even say which volume contains the information, whether it is Working Group I, II, or III.

They are saying that supporting evidence for their claim is somewhere in the thousands and thousand of pages of the AR4 report somewhere, and by gosh, it is the reader’s responsibility to ferret it out. I despise this type of citation, and it is all too common in climate science. If I had tried citing a thousand page document with no page numbers in high school, much less college, my teachers would have had me for breakfast. Yet the authors are college professors, and the reviewers stay schtumm and don’t inquire too closely into the antecedents of the “facts” inhabiting the report.

The only good news? If someone does that, if someone puts the entire IPCC report as the very first citation for their paper without a page citation, you can rest assured that they are activists, not scientists.

Reference 7 for declining snowfall is “Effects of temperature and precipitation variability on snowpack trends in the western United States“.  You’d think with a title like that they might actually look at the snowpack trends. Instead, as the Abstract to that paper says:

In this study, the linear trends in 1 April SWE [snow water equivalent -w.] over the western United States are examined, as simulated by the Variable Infiltration Capacity hydrologic model implemented at 1/8° latitude–longitude spatial resolution, and driven by a carefully quality controlled gridded daily precipitation and temperature dataset for the period 1915–2003.

Here’s what they did. They took some real snowfall and temperature data. Then they “gridded” it, that is to say averaged it by gridcells on the map. Then they adjusted the temperatures for altitude using the moist adiabatic lapse rate. Oh, they also adjusted the precipitation based on the topography. They do not say whether they have infilled cells which contain no data or how they handle missing data

Then they’ve used that averaged, adiabatically compensated, gridded, topographically adjusted, and perhaps infilled dataset to drive a model, a model which outputs using a much smaller grid than the input data, a grid of about ten miles on a side. The paper is about the results of that model.

Sorry, not impressed. I’ve written too many computer programs, I have a good idea of the errors inherent in that process.

Reference 8 for decreasing snowpacks is Attribution of Declining Western U.S. Snowpack to Human Effects It was written in 2008, yet it only uses data up to 1999. This is a huge red flag for me. The reason, in this case, is that it is the usual attempt to have climate models place the blame on humans, and the model runs end in 1999. That’s convenient for alarmism, it turns out, since snowfalls have increased in the last decade. My favorite line from that one is from the abstract, viz:

Estimates of natural internal climate variability are obtained from 1600 years of two control simulations performed with fully coupled ocean–atmosphere climate models.

I had to rub my eyes at that one, natural variability obtained from models?? I looked further, to find that’s what they mean:

… Only if changes are both outside the likely range expected due to natural climate variability and consistent with the changes ex- pected due to anthropogenic forcing can it be concluded that human activity has a role in reducing winter snowpack.

We use 1600 years of control run data from fully coupled global general circulation climate models (GCMs) to provide estimates of natural internal variability

And how do they determine the “human fingerprint”? More computer runs, this time with GHGs and aerosol and the whole Cirque Du Soleil. They go on to explain that step.

Multiple ensemble members of two GCMs run with estimated historical changes in well-mixed GHGs, aerosols, and ozone supply the expected response of snowpack to these anthropogenic forcings. We statistically downscale the GCM results to 1⁄8° resolution then use the downscaled fields as input to a fine-resolution hydrological model. The hydrological model calculates the SWE values as well as soil moisture, runoff, and other variables in the hydrologic water balance used in companion work

So first they are using climate model control simulation runs to give an estimate of “natural” internal climate variability, so they can rule out natural fluctuations as a cause of the change in snowfall … these guys would be hilarious if it didn’t cost us so much time and money to fight this nonsense.

Then they compare that “natural variability” to “anthropogenic” climate model runs with greenhouse gases and aerosols and the lot. To do that, they “downsize” the results of the climate models. These are typically on 5° grids or so, pretty large. They divide each gridcell into no less than a hundred little “mini-gridcells”, and “constrain” the numbers in the downsizing process by comparing them to local observational data. (As far as I know, there is no evidence that this process does better than chance regarding preciptation … but I suppose that doesn’t matter in any case, because in any case the GCMs being downsized are known to do no better than chance on precipitation.

Those thousands of mini-gridcells are then used as input to yet another model. This final model calculates the snowfall that allegedly results from the human influence … anyone care to give me some serious error estimates for that process?

Again, not impressed by the putative fingerprints. It’s models all the way down. Reference 8 is a joke, a downsizing of models known not to work for precipitation.

So their evidence of declining snowfall is both weak and out of date, as snowfalls have generally increased in the western US in the last decade. In the Flagstaff record there is nothing to suggest a human influence on the snowfall. And more to the point, current Flagstaff snowfalls are well within historical norms. During the twenty year period between the world wars, the snowfall was quite low compared to the period they studied. Makes one wonder what the elk were up to then …

Regarding the third question, of what else might push elk up into the mountains … well, duh, population pressure. This pressure comes from two sources—the elk population numbers, and the human population numbers, particularly the number of hunters. There are some issues of interest there. One is that this is not the historical elk population, which had its winter and summer ranges figured out for thousands of years. These are modern transplants whose numbers are increasing, figuring out how to survive in a plotted, parceled, complex ecoscape of natural and human forces. Are we surprised that some group of them might take to eating places they haven’t eaten before?

A second issue is that we have replaced their historical predators with human predators. One of the largest differences between the types of predation is that natural predators preferentially take the aged, the young, and the weak. Human predation preferentially takes adult males. This changes the social structure of the animals. Another difference in predation is where we hunt. Wolves hunt where they live. Humans hunt where we can get to easily, because packing out a big elk, that’s a quarter ton of meat to shlep out of the forest. So we drive the elk into and out of different areas than did the other predators. Again, should we be surprised that they are pushing up into the area of the study?

Finally, question 4. What other areas are they going into? Here, it gets interesting. The AZDFG document cited earlier says:

History and Background:

Elk did not historically occur in southeastern Arizona and are an unplanned addition to the native wildlife found there. Early elk sources such as Murie’s 1951 “Elk of North America” correctly noted that elk were not native to southeastern Arizona. However, later sources (Bryant and Maser 1982 – Elk of North America) erroneously extended the historic range of elk far in to Mexico based on unsubstantiated rumors, a report of a pictograph, and a report by Edgar Mearns’ camp cook of 2 “large deer” crossing the border into Mexico. Archaeological evidence fails to provide any evidence elk were ever in Region 5 in historic times. No evidence exists of elk remains in the fauna lists at Native American sites in southeastern Arizona.

Another large herbivore grazing on the region’s arid and fragile desert ecosystems would probably come to the detriment of other native wildlife. Elk currently occur in Units 28, 31, and 32 and can live quite well among mesquite and prickly pear. There is no doubt they would become established in many areas of southeastern Arizona and have the potential to greatly impact other native wildlife such as desert mule deer, pronghorn, and many grassland and riparian obligate species.

So in addition to elk moving up into the mountains, they are also pushing out into the desert areas.

I can hardly wait for the next study by the USGS and the University of Montana, the new study that conclusively proves that elk are moving into the desert as a result of climate change …

My best to everyone,

w.

[PS—dang science takes a while, as I was researching and writing this Anthony posted about the study here … curse you, masked man!]

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126 Comments
Kevin Kilty
January 13, 2012 7:25 pm

Al Gored says:
January 13, 2012 at 7:05 pm

The wolves they did reintroduce, from the central Alberta Rockies (near Jasper) are more than adequate for the job, as evident by what they have done. And they introduced them to two other areas at the same time, and now they have spread far and wide…

Game and fish people tagged a young wolf and found he traveled from Yellowstone into NW Colorado, then to central Utah, Idaho and back to Yellowstone. They do travel far, and will make it to Rocky Mtn. Park on their own probably.

January 13, 2012 7:42 pm

AlGored

Well, the 1st 3 meanings are as I specified. You can have the rest.

decimate (third-person singular simple present decimates, present participle decimating, simple past and past participle decimated)
1. (Roman history) To kill one man chosen by lot out of every ten in a legion or other military group.  
2. To reduce anything by one in ten, or ten percent.  
3. (historical) To exact a tithe, or tax of 10 percent.  
4. To reduce to one-tenth.
5. To severely reduce; to destroy almost completely.  
6. (computer graphics) To replace a high-resolution model with one of lower resolution but acceptably similar appearance.

Basically a malaprop, intending to say “devastate”, but missing by 3 or 4 letters. >:)
As for the rest of your trivial “exceptions to the rule”, they’re insignificant. In the event, wolf-predated elk/deer/rabbit populations etc. are far more stable and leave much more resources for other species. Deal.

Mike Wryley
January 13, 2012 7:55 pm

“Estimates of natural internal climate variability are obtained from 1600 years of two control simulations performed with fully coupled ocean–atmosphere climate models.”
“fully coupled—models” ! ? I’ll say they were coupled, in fact the whole exercise is a cluster couple.
In reading some of the over worded, inane sentences in the Martin/Maron paper, you have to wonder if these guys actually believe their own swill.

Pamela Gray
January 13, 2012 8:27 pm

Predation is not “balanced”. It see saws just like everything else. People have very weird notions about nature’s “balance”. That is a fairy tale. Nature is about as unbalanced as it can get. It swings wildly and irregularly. It is natural for predators to extinguish prey. And it is natural for predators to themselves be extinguished. That is nature. Not this “balanced” lambs and lions in an equal match. Nature wouldn’t last in a “balanced” system. Not enough resources to sustain it. So when humans try to “balance” things by reintroducing this or that species, we usually really only screw it up worse.

Al Gored
January 13, 2012 8:33 pm

Kevin Kilty says:
January 13, 2012 at 7:25 pm
“Game and fish people tagged a young wolf and found he traveled from Yellowstone into NW Colorado, then to central Utah, Idaho and back to Yellowstone. They do travel far, and will make it to Rocky Mtn. Park on their own probably.”
Yes, young dispersing wolves can travel remarkable distances. But since they know that wolf’s route so well, I must wonder how they ‘tagged’ it. Sounds like a satellite tracked radio-collar.
The poster wolf for the Yellowstone-to-Yukon ‘Rewilding’ project – google it if you don’t know about it, and you may be shocked – was a wolf they named ‘Pluie.’ They put a satellite radio-collar on it and it made a similar incredible journey, which was said to show the need for this giant land grab – even though this wolf successfully traveled so far without it.
Then after wandering aimlessly for a year or so the greenies were all hysterical over the news that Pluie had been shot in SE British Columbia. Then they discovered that only the radio-collar had been shot, off, and Pluie had escaped. The next spring they found her again, settled in with a pack at last.
Wolves are very visually oriented social animals – thus the dominant wolf keeps its tail highest while lesser wolves have them lower, and the ‘low lifes’ are ‘hang dogs.’ You can see all this in dogs. So a wolf like Pluie, with a (then) huge bulky radio-collar around its neck, was a social outcast… until some hunter shot it off, allowing Pluie to join a pack and end its outcast days.
I would not be surprised if something like that played a role in the wolf you describe. That said, with the incredible wolf population boom since the reinroduction, there are so many wolves producing so many surplus dispersers that they are showing up all over the place. One just made it to northern California recently.
And to fully understand why this wolf project was so important to the greens, wherever a wolf wandered to suddenly became ‘critical habitat’ for what they had (until recently) classified as a Threatened species – and an excuse for more land grabbing and rancher and hunter bashing.
Ironically, all during this period any wolf which wandered across the boundary into Canada could be shot.
As to wolves getting to Rocky Mt Nat. Park, while it is certainly possible, if not probable, after what happened with this wolf reintroduction around Yellowstone I am sure that the surrounding ranching, hunting, and rural living community will do everything they can to stop it. Wolves don’t just eat elk.

Al Gored
January 13, 2012 8:59 pm

Brian H says:
January 13, 2012 at 7:42 pm
Thanks for that clarification. My Latin is sooooo rusty.
But I completely disagree with this: “As for the rest of your trivial “exceptions to the rule”, they’re insignificant. In the event, wolf-predated elk/deer/rabbit populations etc. are far more stable and leave much more resources for other species.”
Wolves do not have hunting regulations. They can all but extirpate their prey, particularly in an area like Yellowstone where they have multiple prey species.
In the fantasy version of ecology, the wolves reduce the elk population to the point where that prey population can no longer support the wolves. Then the wolves move or starve. But where they also have deer and moose for example, elk are still their preferred prey but after they have reduced the elk population they can switch to other prey, and stay longer, while at the same time killing off the remaining elk.
So there is no stability. It is cyclic. As for how much meat they leave for other species, that depends entirely on how much food they have. When wolves first arrived in Yellowstone they had a gigantic feast and could afford to just eat the best and leave the rest. Those were the glory days for those secondary scavengers – except for coyotes which they killed, and bears which they displaced from carcasses or killed (yes they can and do kill grizzly bear cubs and sometimes even adult grizzlies; all documented) – as well as for the wolves. But with more wolves and fewer elk, they consume more of each elk, leaving less for scavengers.
After peaking after reintroduction, wolf numbers in that park are declining in synch with their prey pops. That also meant that wolves went looking for food outside the park with predictable results – lots of dead livestock. And although this ‘experimental’ reintroduction was sold with the proviso that cattle killing wolves would be promptly eliminated – and many were – they wrapped that up in so much red tape that that procedure was often not followed, triggering the major backlash that erupted and finally led to their delisting.
All and all, while there are many positive things about this reintroduction it has created a very serious backlash against the greenies and their government collaborators – like Ed Bangs you quoted before – that has probably done much more overall harm than good. And since the wolf people have been lying about things since day one, I fully understand that.
The more you know about this whole thing the worse it gets.

Viv Evans
January 14, 2012 3:29 am

Pamela Gray says on January 13, 2012 at 8:27 pm:
“Predation is not “balanced”. It see saws just like everything else. People have very weird notions about nature’s “balance”. That is a fairy tale. Nature is about as unbalanced as it can get. It swings wildly and irregularly. It is natural for predators to extinguish prey. And it is natural for predators to themselves be extinguished. That is nature. Not this “balanced” lambs and lions in an equal match. Nature wouldn’t last in a “balanced” system. Not enough resources to sustain it. So when humans try to “balance” things by reintroducing this or that species, we usually really only screw it up worse.”
Spot on!
The amazing (or, for me, irritating) point is that these interactions have been researched and described by Charles Sutherland Elton, starting in the 1920s, e.g in his famous book ‘Animal Ecololgy’, 1927.
But for greenies, with their fluffy, anthropomorphic takes on ‘Nature’, history begins last Tuesday. and Elton is soo old, man, what would he know …

Frank White
January 14, 2012 7:42 am

The word “species” gets misused a lot. In my opinion the idea that extinction of a population is equivalent to extinction of a species is a mischievous idea. For example, what happened to the population of elk in Arizona was extinction of a population not a species. Likewise, whatever happens to polar bears in the US part of the Arctic is not relevant because the species is doing very well in the Canadian Arctic thanks to the loss of ice, which make seals much easier for them to find and catch.

January 14, 2012 7:45 am

Viv;
Ecololgy? NAW (Not A Word). 😉
Pam;
RU trying to say Nature is unsustainable? That there can be Peak Prey and/or Peak Predators? Or collapse of one, then the other? That would have resulted in the extinction of 99.98% of all species ever evolved!
Oh, wait …

January 14, 2012 8:41 am

Frank;
And never forget that polar bears interbreed (fertile hybrids) with grizz and Kodiacs, and are, like all bears, omnivores. Since the last glaciation, the only threat to their survival has ever been rifles. Don’t count on your pistol to save you! 😉

Mario
January 14, 2012 9:33 am

Willis I admire your posts very much. Clear arguments with empirical support.
I have a seasonal home in Cornville Az, elev 3,225 ft.
I have hiked at lower elevations, Camp Verde area approx 3.000 ft , to higher, Flagstaff area approx 7,000 ft.
On all these hikes through desert scrub to Ponderosa pine I have seen elk droppings.
I have talked to long time residents that have ranches at lower elevations that have seen elk over the years on their properties.
Elk are not pushing into desert, ie lower elevations, they are already there and have been for a while.

Jim G
January 14, 2012 9:33 am

Technically speaking, I have been told by one of our WY Game & Fish biologists that the strain of wolves introduced here were not “reintroduced” as they are somewhat different from those that were here previously. As far as the “balance of nature”, living here teaches one that there is, indeed, no such warm fuzzy. If predation or weather does not thin out a given critter then disease will do it much more dramatically. Case in point, prairie dogs, were so thick there were not enough bullets to shoot them all nor enough predators so their populations just kept growing in some areas around here then they got the plague. Now one cannot find one in those areas. The cottontail rabbit population follows a similar pattern over about a 7 year course.

Jim G
January 14, 2012 9:42 am

Decimation was originally from the Roman use of the term and was a punishment for running away in a battle and was execution of every tenth man. Since the Romans rarely experienced such losses in battle it was good reason for troops to stay and fight. More recent common use of the term has changed its meaning to a greater loss than true decimation.

juanslayton
January 14, 2012 10:36 am

Willis,
I’m always a bit puzzled by the tendency to dismiss SE Arizona as desert, ignoring the significant Swisshelm and Chiricahua mountains. The Chiricahuas in particular seem to me to be potential elk habitat (plenty of white tail and mule deer there for sure.) So I binged ‘chiricahua elk’ and found the following report of a purported elk skull find:
http://tomahawksadventuretravel.blogspot.com/2009/07/last-fall-before-departing-on-my-round.html
I’d be interested to know what you make of it.

pk
January 14, 2012 10:41 am

juanslayton:
out in the middle of your picture there is a small whatchamacallit on a galvanized pipe. is that one of those automated weather stations that anthony talks about?
when elk (and deer) grow their new antlers in the spring they are covered with skin/hide/whatever. its called “being in the velvet”. the elk/deer rub this stuff off when the antlers are fully developed because it itches. when a full sized bull elk cleans his “rack” he can really rip to shreds a half dozen “christmas trees” in a matter of a few minutes.
i have to wonder how well that little gadget would survive a “cleaning session”.
by the way the forest service used to use colored vinyl ribbon to mark trees for various purposes. the elk would eat the yellow and orange tapes but leave the other colors alone. we would see evidence of them passing through the elk in the droppings.
elk droppings are small spherical offerings. commonly called “knowledge pills” by the local denzians. the sucker is offored a couple and encouraged “here take one, it’l make you smarter”. he gets it up near his nose and says “this smells like $%&^” and the reply is “see you’re getting smarter already”.
C

juanslayton
January 14, 2012 11:22 am

pk:
I take it you refer to the ‘dinner plates on a post.’ That houses the temperature sensor, which is connected by cable to a readout in the office. I don’t know how much automation there is from there; I could use some enlightenment myself. It may be they still have to hand enter the daily readings, though I’d bet they do it on line. Anybody….? Inquiring minds, and all that…..
The Luna site actually has three temperature measurements, and all three appear in the picture. Just behind the car you can see the old Stevenson screen. It currently houses instrumentation to determine relative humidity. And way up in the top left you can see through the trees something resembling a lunar lander. I think this isan automated station, though I’ve never been able to figure out who uses it or for what.
Always interested in local nature lore : > ) Unfortunately, being a city boy myself, I couldn’t tell an elk skull from a buffalo hide. Which is why I’d like to get informed opinion on the reported elk find in the Chiricahuas. (My previous comment.)

My2Cents
January 14, 2012 11:54 am

Have they corrected for the introduction of horses and pigs?
Pigs are especially destructive to the environment

Al Gored
January 14, 2012 11:58 am

juanslayton says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:36 am
Interesting. What I can tell you for certain is this. Elk were not present in those mountains historically and because they are surrounded by desert – not elk habitat – they could not have got there naturally.
So if that elk skull and antlers came from an elk that was alive there, somebody put them there. And since elk are available for ranching now, free lance environmentalists who may have wished they were there may have released them. That has happened before for other species. Or somebody may have quietly tried elk ranching in that area and some escaped.
In any case, you or someone will have to do some homework to uncover that story. But it is worth noting that they have ‘discovered’ jaguar in some places down there recently which could never have got there naturally either – but are extremely convenient for the enviros. Isn’t the Center for Biological Diversity in Arizona?

Dr. Dave
January 14, 2012 1:19 pm

@Al Gored
I have really enjoyed your comments about wolves. I guess I’m going to have to do some research and reading on the subject. I always questioned the wisdom of re-introducing predators. I had never given a thought to the potential for environmentalist land grab inherent in the practice. I should point out that jaguar were once native to the southwestern states…and really not that long ago. They were essentially eradicated for their hides and because they were deadly to livestock and humans, but a little over 100 years ago they were not uncommon in south Texas.
I grew up in Michigan just a few miles from Lake Michigan. The Great Lakes were infested with the non-native alewife due to shipping. These fish would flourish and then die off in the millions, wash up on shore and rot in piles a half foot deep. When I was a little kid they introduced the Coho Salmon. It was not a native species but it could survive in fresh water and it likes to eat alewives. Today, probably over 40 years later, there aren’t many dead alewives on the beaches but there is a booming Coho sport fishing industry. I think in this case the interventionalists got it right.

Bob, Missoula
January 14, 2012 3:19 pm

I apologize for some of the nonsense coming out of my town.

Al Gored
January 14, 2012 3:21 pm

Dr. Dave
I know that is what they say about jaguars but if you actually look at the historical record that is highly questionable, to put it very, very mildly. The earliest apparent (Spanish) evidence is not at all what they claim it is and more recent historical records all have more logical explanations.
To take the most recent records seriously, one must imagine that a jaguar crossed large expanses of desert – nonhabitat for jaguars – and incredible distances undetected by all the people along its supposed path. Mexico is not an empty wilderness. Ignoring the habitat, must have been extremely wary cats to do that.
More likely, they arrived there on wheels.
Just googled this, which accidentally explains what is really going on:
“The animals’ prospects brightened in 1996, when Warner Glenn, a rancher and hunting guide from Douglas, Arizona, came across a jaguar in the Peloncillo Mountains of southeastern Arizona. Catching the jaguar on a ledge, Glenn snapped a few pictures, pulled back his hounds and allowed the animal to stride away. Six months later and 150 miles to the west, Tucson houndsmen Jack Childs and Matt Colvin treed a second jaguar near the reservation of the Tohono O’odham Nation. The cat, about 150 pounds and groggy from feeding, allowed himself to be videotaped for an hour.”
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Return_of_the_Jaguar.html#ixzz1jTLxENlw
In other words, that second one was obviously a tame jaguar. And there are plenty of them available.
http://www.petsforsale.org/cheetahsjaguarleopardlion-an183-DCL.aspx
“Not long after Childs’ surprise encounter, the hunter became a jaguar researcher, even traveling to Brazil’s Pantanal wilderness to study the cats. In 1999, he began placing remote cameras in Arizona where jaguars had been seen in the past. By December 2001, he had his first jaguar photograph: a male weighing between 130 and 150 pounds and later dubbed Macho A. The jaguar looked healthy, well fed and heavily built, with a broad, wide skull that flowed back to a torso shaped like a cylinder of muscle. Macho A turned up on film in August 2003, and again in September 2004. Childs and McCain have since picked up a second male, Macho B, and possibly a third animal.”
Amazing how they miraculously just pop up out of nowhere when this ‘jaguar researcher’ started looking for them.

James Crawford
January 14, 2012 11:58 pm

I am doing my share to control the depredations of the Elk population in Oregon. My boys and I bagged three of them during the first hour of opening morning. I was actually standing in my driveway when I shot mine. We got two, five points and a six point that is still at the taxidermists. They field dressed at over four hundred pounds each.
Yes, they are delicious!

pk
January 15, 2012 11:08 am

Bob, Missoula:
thats ok bob it makes up for the stiff necks at the university.
GO CATS, GO
c

January 16, 2012 3:22 pm

Well, yeah, predators might drive elk higher up the mountain.
As for where they eat, some claimed variations are:
– diet of caribou varies with seasonally availability and their needs (protein vs fat etc – need to store energy for winter), tundra caribou eat much lichen from the ground but some such as in forested SE BC eat it from trees
– some deer eat much lichen from trees in the forest, most prefer leaves or such from more open places
BTW, those type of animals are good at defending themselves with their hooves, typically quite agile at turning (a maneuver called something like “stolting”). Some pet dogs and their owners are learning the hard way that deer in urban areas hate dogs (even small ones it seems, I presume they think “wolf” instinctively). One woman in BC covered her two lap-mutts with her body, so received heavy gashes. Usually attacks come from mother deer protecting their fawns (who are likely hidden in bush).
As for elk being one of the largest mammals in NA, there are caribou, moose, grizzly bears, and polar bears – not to mention orcas and larger whales.