I’m taking the rest of the weekend off – for two reasons:
1. With 100million views under my belt, I’ve earned it.
2. I’m rebuilding my home personal computer as it is becoming flakey, and such things take three times as long as you figure. Windows doesn’t take well to new mobos, and backup/prep must be done. So I’ll be down anyway.
Talk quietly amongst yourselves on any topic within site policy – don’t make me come back here until late Sunday night whenI start my regular work week. 😉 – Anthony
UPDATE: Sunday AM – My computer rebuild went well, and I learned some valuable things that I’ll share in an upcoming post. I went from an old AMDx2 64 dual core to a Intel I5 quad core CPU, doubled my memory speed, doubled my video card speed, and went from a SATA2 to SATA3 SSD. I can blog even faster now. Speaking of which, my email load this morning contained two stories (one quite dramatic) that I’ve put on auto-scheduled publishing that will appear soon. I’m still taking the rest of the day off though. – Anthony
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R. Gates says:
January 8, 2012 at 6:15 am
Genghis says:
January 8, 2012 at 5:29 am
Tallbloke – “For me, the big story this week is the outcome of our investigation of the controversy between Maxwell, Boltzmann and Loschmidt. It seems Maxwell and Boltzmann were wrong, and Loschmidt was right. This now has experimental support as well as theoretical underpinning.”
You are absolutely correct. The takeaway from that, for me, is that convection is what primarily heats the atmosphere. The atmosphere is largely transparent to radiation.
_______
Except that the atmosphere with greenhouse gaes present is not “largely transparent” the the LW radiation coming back from the ground, and in fact, the absorption by CO2 at around 15 microns is very nearly exactly at the same wavelength where the peak of the LW from the ground is. Water vapor also has absorption at around 15 microns, but the intensity of CO2 absorption in this region is greater. There are of course other LW aborption bands in the atmosphere as well. In addition to the LW radiation coming from the ground, there is of course some small amount of SW solar radiation that is absorbed by the atmosphere. Suggesting the atmosphere is “largely transparent” to radiation (if you’re including LW) is nonsense. Having clarified that point however, it is quite true that convection heats the atmosphere as well as conduction of course, but radiative transfer is a larger proportion of the heating than either of these.
Well, as it turns out, you’re both wrong, along with Ira Glickstein.
In fact, it is the gravitational compression of the atmosphere which leads to the thermal gradient which matches the dry adiabatic lapse rate. However, convection and the latent heat of evaporation have a large role to play in returning the balance of the gradient of heat in the atmosphere to that set by the gravitational constant and the consequent air pressure. Radiation does very little, since it cannot transfer heat between layers in any significant way in the troposphere due to short free path length and the contiguous nature of the equilibrium thermal gradient. But of course, the dayside earth is often not in local thermal equilibrium so radiation will have minor second order effects mopping up the imbalance left by convective activity. There remains much to discover about the way radiation to space occurs from various levels however, so the gravitationally challenged lady is still arranging her skirts offstage at the moment.
wayne says:
January 8, 2012 at 4:56 am
Well said tallbloke!
Everyone… yes, you do absolutely need to check this one out!
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/the-loschmidt-gravito-thermal-effect-old-controversy-new-relevance/
And tallbloke, you should check these out! I am finally vindicated!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/05/08/venus-envy/#comment-387272
And that very discussion goes all the way down that Venus Envy thread.
(in that skit dr.bill is playing Karl Maxwell ☺)
It has been going on in other threads for over a year and half. My persitent gut feeling was absolutely correct that low altitudes are warmer, high altitudes are are naturally cooler, but at that time I though it was JUST pressure and had not played in the acceleration of the molecules yet.
Well I owe it to you tallbloke for finding those papers…. you’ the man!
I just did the diligent librarian bit. Others take a bigger share of the props, including Bill Gilbert and Hans Jelbring to name just two. Plus of course Nikolov and Zeller for rekindling the flame.
When Django and Stefan met for the firsttime after the war they sat down and recorded this.
R. Gates says:
January 7, 2012 at 11:52 am
That discrepancy has been properly explained several times here, in special by Prof.Nicola Scafetta.
Have a nice week end Anthony!. a HUNDRED MILLIONS HITS deserves much more than that: Cheers!
R. Gates – “Having clarified that point however, it is quite true that convection heats the atmosphere as well as conduction of course, but radiative transfer is a larger proportion of the heating than either of these.”
You are absolutely 100% wrong or at least 99.5% wrong, it depends on the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere as to how wrong you are : ) The bulk of the atmosphere is transparent to radiation, to put it simply for you and LazyTeenager that means that radiation doesn’t warm it, radiation passes right through it.
As far as heating the atmosphere CO2 is relatively neutral, it instantly re radiates all the radiation it intercepts, except for a small fraction of kinetic energy that it transfers to the nitrogen or oxygen atoms, but remember the same collision works in reverse with the atmospheric atoms transferring kinetic energy back to the CO2 molecule which causes it to radiate out, which is a zero net gain.
Convection is the primary means of heating and distributing the energy to the atmosphere, almost exclusively. If you want some really fun proof of that I would love to take you flying some day : )
Please do not even think of limiting R gates posts here etc. He is a super asset for the skeptics. It seesms that nearly every single statement he has put up here has been soundly debunked with clear data graphs etc from his own mates NCDC, Cryosphere, DMI etc.. LOL
R. Gates
You should take a close look at OHC of the tropics. http://virakkraft.com/ENSO-OHC-Tropics.png
– All the increase in western hemisphere happened between 70 and 80, but no similar decrease in the eastern hemisphere.
– There is a very curious step change around 2003 indicating the data before and after are not comparable.
– Tropical temperature only increased as long as there were excess OHC in the w. hem. After balance was restored around 1998, tropical temperature has not increased. http://virakkraft.com/excess-heat-tropics.png Again the step change around 2003 is probably not real.
Conclusion: There is no trace of a CO2 influence in the tropics. It is all a result of the 70-80 shift (maybe caused by the change in earths rotation)
R. Gates says:
January 8, 2012 at 6:15 am
but radiative transfer is a larger proportion of the heating than either of these.
Don’t think so! Why is the floor cold below my radiator yet the ceiling above it is red hot??????
And my radiator is a lot hotter than the surface of the earth.
Has anyone seen this?
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/337368/title/Insurance_payouts_point_to_climate_change
It’s just amazing to me how far downhill SN has gone over the last 5 years.
R. Gates says….
“…….I’m sure that the vast majority of skeptics truly care as much about the truth as I do.”
Ha! Very funny for early Sunday morning. You care about the truth? My impression is that you don’t care at all for the truth.
You do, though, have a fondness for half-truths and tap dancing.
Actually I owe Ghengis an apology. He is correct that it is mostly convection (plus evapo-transpiration) which heats the atmosphere. Gravity is the underlying force which determines the distribution of that heat; cooler on top, warmer near the surface.
Fitzcarraldo says:
January 8, 2012 at 7:01 am
Please do not even think of limiting R gates posts here etc. He is a super asset for the skeptics. It seesms that nearly every single statement he has put up here has been soundly debunked with clear data graphs etc from his own mates NCDC, Cryosphere, DMI etc.. LOL
__________________________
No amount of serial debunking has moved R. Gates to date. Solid evidence on Monday leads to R. Gates deceptive postings over the same point on Thursday.
Due to R. Gates record of subtle obfuscation and thread redirection, I sincerely question that the person is really just a somewhat- dense warmist, but is rather a propagandist, as part of their job, to continuously disrupt and obscure any information displayed in WUWT which contradicts the warmist line.
This point about R. Gates true agenda has been made and left unanswered (by R. Gates) in WUWT before. The fact that the point is unanswered serves to increase the suspicion.
R. Gates says:
January 8, 2012 at 6:28 am
“Sorry, but this is rediculous. If you look at the patterns of sea level changes and match them up with prevailing winds and warm water over a long time period you get a nearly direct match. Are you suggesting that the volcanic activity on the sea floor also follows the prevailing winds? The area north of Australia is where the prevailing tropical easterly winds pile up the warm water from the equatorial Pacific. Nothing to do with volcanoes.”
There’s another water mountain near Iceland. You will have to add some epicycles to your theory.
http://suyts.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/discussion-so-far/
Genghis says:
January 8, 2012 at 7:00 am
“Convection is the primary means of heating and distributing the energy to the atmosphere, almost exclusively. If you want some really fun proof of that I would love to take you flying some day : )”
As you are keeping current with night flying, you will remember that convection disappears at night (except along weather fronts). So at night radiation rules and that scourge of mankind CO2 gets to slow down outgoing LW and keep things a little warmer. But daylight comes and the convective temperature cap goes back on an we are all saved.
Since Gates has taken over this thread, to brake monotony here is something different from Jackson California, official permitted by the governor himself:
I hope Anthony as a Ca man didn’t mind the post.
♪♪ Feelin a bit of that GRAVITY mix’n in the air ♪♪
Make sure that you make your rebuilt PC a DUAL BOOT machine with a LINUX installation such as Red Hat Fedora, Gentoo or Ubunto, or even SUSE. Windows is great but having LINUX available is a wonderful toolbox that can help you get many, many more things done!
I despise rebuilding my personal confusers. Even though I am good at it, the time to save, save, and save is gruelingly boring. Then to load, load, load, load, and endure the monotonous hours of waiting for the “Next” icon. Not how I would celebrate 1^8. However, it does allow for some beer research. 🙂
–> Convection is the primary means of heating and distributing the energy to the atmosphere, almost exclusively. If you want some really fun proof of that I would love to take you flying some day : )
You increase the temperature of the atmosphere inside a greenhouse by preventing convection and, of course, by allowing convection, “distributing the energy to the atmosphere” must mean from the ‘warm’ to the ‘cool’ atmosphere.
Maybe we should call this an R. Gates thread, as most comments seem to be addressed to him. In an attempt to re-task this thread from questioning skeptical views, I will propose this question.
How does one explain climategate 1&2. I am not referring to any single email, but the entirety of the email library. How can we rely on such “scientists” to provide us with a global view of climate? What happens to modern educated people, that causes such degeneration of principles? Why do so many warmists not discern the manipulation exposed by these emails?
Are warmist unaware or just ideologically blinded? Since R. Gates is one, perhaps he should explain first. GK
Fitzcarraldo says:
January 8, 2012 at 7:01 am
Please do not even think of limiting R gates posts here etc. He is a super asset for the skeptics. It seesms that nearly every single statement he has put up here has been soundly debunked with clear data graphs etc from his own mates NCDC, Cryosphere, DMI etc.. LOL
I don’t believe that there is even a thought of preventing R. Gates from posting here. This site provides a forum for thought, exchange of information etc. Unlike other sites that are agenda driven, this site is information driven.
A real breath of fresh air.
Tallbloke
Several years ago I read somewhere that co2 molecules can escape the earths gravitational field and disappear into space if they achieved sufficient velocity.
If that is correct no one has ever been able to tell me why that occurs, what that speed is and what fraction of co2 that involves. .Anyone know if there is any truth in this?
tonyb
[Reply] I don’t know. Anyone? – TB -mod
There was a beautiful sky at sunset in my home town of Aberfeldy in Scotland today. one of the guys I was at school with sent me this photo. It appears that the sky was like this all over Scotland and Ireland too.
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad34/Jimmy1960/Feldysky8thJan2012.jpg
The point has to made that the vast majority of the atmosphere can only be heated by convection, primarily from surface convection (and of course that includes evapo-transpiration).
The global warming theory that claims that the atmosphere is primarily heated via radiation is absolutely, unequivocally wrong. Radiation travels through the atmosphere, it doesn’t warm it and the atmosphere doesn’t cool by radiation.
While it is true that GHG’s do warm and cool via radiation, their net heating and/or cooling effect on the overall atmosphere is negligible, precisely because the rest of the atmosphere is transparent to radiation.
Hey, Anthony, here’s a fun activity for the kids (and you!). Put on an old pair of white cotton socks, and go outside. Walk around on the dirt and in the weeds, all over the place. Then, dampen the socks, and put them in zip lock plastic bags in a sunny window. They should sprout within a few weeks, it’s sooo cool!
La primavera esta a vuelta a la esquina!