Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
The Duke of Edinburgh, the husband of Queen Elizabeth, has spoken out about windmills, and he’s not happy at all. Chris Huhne, the UK Energy Secretary, has said that people who oppose windmills are “curmudgeons and fault-finders”. He finds windmills “elegant” and “beautiful”.
Figure 1. A photo of elegant windmills beautifying the otherwise inelegant, ugly UK countryside. PHOTO SOURCE
The Duke, on the other hand, thinks that windmills are an absolute disgrace. Of course that’s my translation, because being royalty, the Duke would never say something as direct and crude as that. The man who tried to sell His Dukeness the windmills reports on the conversation as follows:
“He said they were absolutely useless, completely reliant on subsidies and an absolute disgrace,” said Mr Wilmar. “I was surprised by his very frank views.”
Hmmm … well, I guess royalty may not be that much different after all. The article continues:
Mr Wilmar said his attempts to argue that onshore wind farms were one of the most cost-effective forms of renewable energy received a fierce response from the Duke.
“He said, ‘You don’t believe in fairy tales do you?’” said Mr Wilmar. “He said that they would never work as they need back-up capacity.”
The Duke won’t abide windmills on his estate. I don’t blame him one bit, I commend his understanding of the situation, and I admire his frankness. The Duke’s eldest son, the Artist Currently Known As Prince, has agreed with the Duke’s position. He won’t allow windmills on his estate either, despite The Artist’s well-known alarmism about CO2. Funny how that works, even royalty believes in NIMBY.
Actually, though, none of that was what caught my eye about the Telegraph article. The part that made my hair stand on end was this throwaway line from just before the end:
Two-thirds of the country’s wind turbines are owned by foreign companies, which are estimated to reap £500 million a year in subsidies.
Yikes! I’m too gobsmacked to even comment on that, other than to say I guess we know how they lost their Empire … not that the US is far behind …
w.
“Two-thirds of the country’s wind turbines are owned by foreign companies, which are estimated to reap £500 million a year in subsidies.”
More than enough to buy hours of BBC air time in the form of extra long advertisements under the fabricated cover of ‘documentaries’ isnt it? More than enough money to bribe the WWF/RSPB/Greenpeace etc to turn a blind eye to the massacre of tens of thousands of birds and bats. Its ‘kick back city Arizona’ a veritable money tree where Mafia gangs and greedy landowners and bent politicians and crooked ‘charaties’ all rub shoulders as they feed from the golden trough of public funds. It matters not to the greedy, the selfish, the ideologue, the corrupt that the poor are paying the price and the price is unsustainable. The politicians who pimped this grotesque abomination will be brought to account? Made to pay the price? Made to face justice? You all know the answer to that already and that is the real tragedy isnt it? In this tragedy only the victims will suffer, only the victims will remember and pay the price, the perpetrators will fade like a summer morning mist to count their money and laugh at the victims.
Never before has an industry been built and sustained on such eye watering corruption and run by so many moral degenerates for the singular benefit of the dregs of humanity. Harsh? No! The simple truth of it all, the basest of reasons, an appeal to greed of the worst sort driven by the most ugly and evil of all justifications, ‘the end justifies the means’. Never before has so many lies been told, so many people been bought off, so many people deceived, so much money been made/stolen/extorted. Where has the money gone, how much will ever be recovered when the shameful fraud of the modern age collapses? Offshore tax havens have swallowed vast amounts of money, it will never be traced, never be recovered, the damage will take decades to fix and for what?
Marc Dacey says:
November 20, 2011 at 8:13 pm
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Yes, hydrogen storage has made progress during the last couple of years, but I think it is still terribly inefficient and expensive. How does hydrogen electrolysis, storage, and power generation compare with an simple battery in terms of cost ?
Maybe Phill the Greek (as he is affectionately known as in the U.K.) has had the time to read this
“Vattenfall, has spent £500 million on building 30 five megawatt turbines with a total “capacity” of 150MW. What Shukman did not tell us, because the BBC never does, is that, thanks to the vagaries of the wind, these machines will only produce a fraction of their capacity (30 per cent was the offshore average in the past two years). So their actual output is only likely to average 45MW, or £11 million per MW.
Compare this with the figures for Britain’s newest gas-fired power station, recently opened in Plymouth. This is capable of generating 882MW at a capital cost of £400 million – just £500,000 for each megawatt. Thus the wind farm is 22 times more expensive, and could only be built because its owners will receive a 200 per cent subsidy: £40 million a year, on top of the £20 million they will get for the electricity itself.”
Not the sort of numbers people like Kum Dollison want us to know about Willis.
Kum Dollison:
Wind energy developers should also be forced to pay for the birds and bats they kill. Let’s start off with $250,000 per eagle, $75,000 per hawk, seems that should do for starters though those figures might be a bit on the low side. When they are all shredded how much would the world pay to have them back? Rates can be inferred backwards from that value. That also might even give WWF and the like something to push out other than the hot CO2 eminating from their PR departments. Of course alternative these wind energy developers could just cover their gigantic windmills with chicken wire. Seems that should do it too. The power drop should be minimal. Ok with you?
And like Willis I am more that tired of Ohio sapping tax dollars from the tax payers in other states with tax credits so you can blow your horn, to me it’s a bit like legal theft. Hey, you know, that gives me something to do tomorrow. With a bit of influence in Congress and friends with a whole lot more than myself that give me a whole new project, thanks Kum.
Willis says : I thought so … your kind of green hypocrisy turns my stomach. Me, I’m not the kind of man like you, the kind that will happily eat the meat while blaming the butcher for being “nas-tee” …
Gareth responds: Wow Willis! You are obviously learning from John Cook on how to promote debate! The comment you responded to was just that, a comment with no hate or malice. There is no need to respond in such a way. You have so much more potential. Have a look at the article on Lord Moncktons behaviour for some guidance on how unconstructive this sort of behaviour can be.
But back to the debate. Should Dutch windmills be banned? If so, which ones and at what age? Whether something is an eyesore or not is a subjective issue. I live on an island with many many windmills, I hated them initially, but I must admit I don’t tend to notice them now. We also have a nuclear power station, which looks ok and an oil/gas terminal, which is ugly, but required. However if I were pressed to say which one was less visually intrusive, personally I would say the windmills at this point. Our farmers like them due to being still able to use marginal agricultural land for grazing while earning money from the Turbines. It’s worth noting that the majority of turbines tend to be situated in areas which are not good agricultural land. However the other major wind farm we have is off shore. It’s visible on the horizon and is apparently more efficient. Now that this trend has started I believe that will be the future of wind generated energy, I think it unlikely we will see the same level of land based turbine building in future.
With regard to subsidies, that is an economic issue. We could hope that the Conservative government will address such issues quickly, but I’m not holding my breath. You may be pleased to know however that the domestic feed in tariff for energy generated from the home has been stopped. Lets hope that jet fuel is now taxed to show that we are all in this together and that it’s not just the little man who has to pay more every time there is an economic initiative.
R. Gates says- Of course it was by the plundering and subjugation of dark-skinned people in far-away lands, and by the direct control of the economy by the Crown, allowing their corporate interests to call the shots and reap vast profits.
Is this not the aim of the IPCC, WWF, Greenpeace etc. to keep the developing countries down and in doing so reap huge profits.
Reminds you of someone you know (who also fought windmills):
“…amigo Sancho Panza, donde se descubren treinta, o pocos más, desaforados gigantes […] que ésta es buena guerra, y es gran servicio de Dios quitar tan mala simiente de sobre la faz de la tierra.”
“Mire vuestra merced,” respondió Sancho, “que aquellos que allí se parecen no son gigantes, sino molinos de viento.”
“Bien parece,” respondió don Quijote, “que no estás cursado en esto de las aventuras: ellos son gigantes.” [ch. VIII]
[…for look there, friend Sancho Panza, where thirty or more monstrous giants present themselves […] This is righteous warfare, and it is God’s good service to sweep so evil a breed from off the face of the earth.”
“Look, your worship,” said Sancho; “what we see there are not giants but windmills.”
“It is easy to see,” replied Don Quixote, “that thou art not used to this business of adventures; those are giants.”]
For once, the Knight of the Sad Countenance was absolutely right.
Living in Wales I can assure everyone that I have never heard of a bunch of wind turbines sliding down a hill into a school and killing hundreds of children. Or as a health professional I have never seen hundreds of thousands on workers slowly gasping their lives away because of wind powered dust. Or as someone who loves the Welsh countryside I really can’t agree that the hundreds of coal tips dumped in lovely countryside were not more intrusive and damaging than turbines. Sometimes, it’s not all about profit and loss.
The Duke is OK with windmills on the sea bed where they pay the subsidy into the family pockets so he is still the hypocrite he always was. As for Charles he still insists on subjecting us to his tirades about so many days to ‘save the earth’. He is the ultimate NIMBY in that he is advocating wind generation everywhere but his estates.
Remember both these people are founder members of the Club of Rome!!
Re. that throwaway line just before the end, most of the infrastructure of this country – energy, transport, communications, you name it – now seems to be owned by foreigners, not just the greenies’ prayerwheels. It is, of course, purest coincidence that it is also now largely falling apart as the value of our formerly publicly owned infrastructure leaches out of the country and into the pockets of the shareholders of the corporations they’re now a part of. I think they call it a “free” market, mostly because the 1% are now “free” to help themselves and blackmail the Gov for more subsidies, while the rest of us are now “free” to decide whether we can afford to heat our homes in the cold weather or not.
It’s all getting very reminiscent of the old saw that “the law forbids the rich man, as well as the poor, to steal a loaf of bread, or sleep under a bridge”. If I sound cynical, blame a lifetime of watching this transfer of freedom from people to “markets” (corporations) and regulation from markets to people. Oh, and this time out I agree with the Duke, despite his expressed wish to be reborn as a lethal virus: at least he’s blunt and honest, unlike the mealy-mouthed petty functionaries who have torn our country apart.
Keep in mind that the UK is part of this think called the EU, or Common Market, and that the article was in the Telegraph, which is fairly EU phobic.
So in a US context, you might read this:
Or, 1/3 are owned within the state – which is pretty good. Upscale to Europe, and you see there isn’t really an issue.
Gareth Phillips says:
November 21, 2011 at 12:44 am
Living in Wales I can assure everyone that I have never heard of a bunch of wind turbines sliding down a hill into a school and killing hundreds of children. Or as a health professional I have never seen hundreds of thousands on workers slowly gasping their lives away because of wind powered dust. Or as someone who loves the Welsh countryside I really can’t agree that the hundreds of coal tips dumped in lovely countryside were not more intrusive and damaging than turbines. Sometimes, it’s not all about profit and loss.”
Indeed it is not. However your post is all emotion, and no science or even statistics. Statistics demonstrate wind to be more deadly then nuclear as it is practiced in the world, and coal as it is practiced in the USA. Add in the destruction of world economies due to the CAGW panic, and the wars and riots that may well result, and it is indeed not all about monetary profit and loss.
the beast of traal says:
November 20, 2011 at 6:18 pm
““The common enemy of humanity is man.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up…”
You must try to quote the actual document (pg 75):”
Thanks, Beast Of Traal. The complete quote makes it even scarier.
For what it’s worth, Willis, I live in Mississippi. Not Iowa. Not a very scientific assumption on your part.
You can get mad at me all you want, Bubba; but, I didn’t cause the 20th Century to leave you. It was just time; and it left. It’s the 21st Century, now, and China is paying $126.00/Tonne for coal, and importing 5 million barrels/day of oil, and diesel.
Liquified Natural Gas is selling for $13.50 per thousand cuft in Asia, and we’re building LNG Export Facilities as quickly as it can be done. China is adding, by far, more Wind Power than any other country on Earth. You might want to ask yourself, “Why?”
We get 40% of Our coal from the Powder River Basin, and most of the current mines operating there will be “played out” in 20 yrs. Maybe you’d care to ask, “what/where next?” The times they are a’changin’, son; time to move on.
And Phil the Greek is not a foreign investor? And the Queen? Whole family of Germans if I’m not mistaken…..
For the first time ever, Willis, I find fault with something you have said, but rest assured, it’s a common mistake easily made, regarding our Empire. We did not lose it, we gave it back, & created the modern Commonwealth of which the Queen is still (a popular) Head! There is a huge difference between losing something & giving it back, although I admit we did so largely because we were flat broke at the end of WW2, helping to win the war as lead partner, until January 1945 when it was clear that Amercia was pouring in 3/4 of the manpower & equipment into the European conflict, still with much fierce fighting ahead. The US then took the lead role, that without fantastic US support it would have been impossible to win. I also hasten to remind all of the 300,000 men who served under the Stars & Stripes in that bloody campaign, & who gave their last full measure of devotion to the cause of liberation, freedom & democracy in Europe, something some in the PDREU seem to forget all too readily!!!!! They need reminding every now & then just who got us out of the sH1t on two occasions last century, & they didn’t really have to, but they did! 🙂
But the counter-argument could be made that wind farms kill indirectly, because their subsidies raise the price of power, causing more of the fuel-poor elderly to die of hypothermia.
But that’s not inherent in coal mining. Modern techniques can avoid it, or minimize it.
But that’s offset, to some degree, by the ruination of the landscape, and contamination of the water, in China where the rare earths for these turbines are being mined.
Gareth Phillips says:
November 21, 2011 at 12:44 am
I agree that the health of the Coal Miners is a concern and the Coal tips could have been handled better.
But how many families made their living based on Coal in Wales and how many would still like to be able to again?
And to think you lot got rid of the Crown completely for a bunch of elected clowns! I’m with the ‘Duke’ but unfortunately the clowns are in charge of the circus everywhere-
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/in-hot-water-over-shower-head/story-e6freuy9-1226200126584
Perhaps it’s an insidious virus strain that only attacks ‘whitefella’ brains?
It puts ROCs in their heads and it RECs them!
What a fun bunch of comments! Typical of the responses Willis generates. In response to a few:
Kum Dollison says:
“Iowa seems to have gone from 15% of electricity provided by Wind to 20% provided by Wind in one year. That means, in 4 years they could be up to the 40% that many, there, are aiming for.”
So in only a dozen years or so Iowa could be exporting wind-generated electricity! And trees grow to the moon.
Rhoda Ramirez says:
“Carl Chapman: I believe that it was Prince Charles that said he wanted to be reincarnated as a virus, not his father Prince Phillip.”
Actually, Prince Charles really wanted to be reincarnated as something else.
And as usual the anti-American R. Gates doesn’t understand. The U.S. was in the Philippines, not to expand a mythical empire, but as a direct result of the Spanish-American war. America gave the Philippines an almost identical copy of the American Constitution, and left. Where was the greedy profit, Gates?
“Roger Knights says:
But that’s offset, to some degree, by the ruination of the landscape, and contamination of the water, in China where the rare earths for these turbines are being mined.”
ENERCON WECs produce clean energy without neodymium
29.04. 2011
ENERCON wind energy converters (WECs) generate electricity in an environmentally friendly way without the use of the controversial element, neodymium. The gearless WEC design on which all WEC types – from the E-33/330 kW to the E-126/7.5 MW – are based includes a separately excited annular generator.
http://tinyurl.com/6lkadj7
A description of the removal of a windfarm:
http://www.enercon.de/p/downloads/WB_0211_eng.pdf
When ENERCON installed the Roggeplaat Wind Farm in The Netherlands in 1992,…
At the end of June, ENERCON began taking down the first E-33 turbines. First the rotor blades, hub and nacelle were dismantled and removed by crane. Then the demolition digger broke through the walls of the 35-metre towers so that the crane could heave the towers off of the foundation base. «We just take the towers down and lay them on the ground,»
explains ENERCON project manager, Din Rijniers. Later on a sub-contractor will come on site, rip out the foundation, and crush the tower and foundation concrete down into rubble
which will then be reused to build the access roads and crane pads for the new E-82. They are scheduled to be installed starting in April 2012.
So in 10 months most will be recycled (no storage for 10s of years) and the same site reused (no quarantine)
Nuclear (wiki)
Cost of decommissioningIn USA many utilities estimates now average $325 million per reactor all-up (1998 $).
In France, decommissioning of Brennilis Nuclear Power Plant, a fairly small 70 MW power plant, already cost 480 million euros (20x the estimate costs) and is still pending after 20 years. Despite the huge investments in securing the dismantlement, radioactive elements such as Plutonium, Cesium-137 and Cobalt-60 leaked out into the surrounding lake.[66][67]
In the UK, decommissioning of the Windscale Advanced Gas Cooled Reactor (WAGR), a 32 MW prototype power plant, cost 117 million euros.
In Germany, decommissioning of Niederaichbach nuclear power plant, a 100 MW power plant, amounted to more than 143 million euros
Time: “many” years some left in “safestore” for 30+years
this ones interesting:
USA Yankee Rowe PWR 185 MWe 31 years operating
(1960–1991) DECON COMPLETED – Demolished
(greenfield open to visitors) [14] $608 million with $8 million per year upkeep
Big respect to the Duke and his forthright views – for which he is well known. What is refreshing is that AT LAST a member of The Establishment here in the UK is stating what Basil Fawlty in ‘Fawlty Towers’ (hope you are familiar with it in the States) would describe as the bleedin’ obvious.
As for Chris Huhne and his ‘elegant’ and ‘beautiful’ descriptions of these eyesores, I think he may be failing to identify that their sole purpose is to GENERATE ELECTRICITY…
Talking of which – as I write, wind in the UK is contributing 0.9% of demand – or 12% of installed capacity. Big deal.
Eventually, even Dave Cameron, despite the fact that his father-in-law is making £1000/week from the things, will have to concede that this medieval technology has no place in the 21st century, when increasing numbers of voters are in fuel poverty…