This will be a top “sticky” post for a day or two. New stories will appear below this one.
Readers may recall my previous essay where I pointed out how Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 Video, used in his “24 hours of climate reality”, had some serious credibility issues with editing things to make it appear as if they had actually performed the experiment, when they clearly did not. It has taken me awhile to replicate the experiment. Delays were a combination of acquisition and shipping problems, combined with my availability since I had to do this on nights and weekends. I worked initially using the original techniques and equipment, and I’ve replicated the Climate 101 experiment in other ways using improved equipment. I’ve compiled several videos. My report follows.
First. as a refresher, here’s the Climate 101 video again:
I direct your attention to the 1 minute mark, lasting through 1:30, where the experiment is presented.
And here’s my critique of it: Video analysis and scene replication suggests that Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project fabricated their Climate 101 video “Simple Experiment”
The most egregious faked presentation in that video was the scene with the split screen thermometers, edited to appear as if the temperature in the jar of elevated CO2 level was rising faster than the jar without elevated CO2 level.
It turns out that the thermometers were never in the jar recording the temperature rise presented in the split screen and the entire presentation was nothing but stagecraft and editing.
This was proven beyond a doubt by the photoshop differencing technique used to compare each side of the split screen. With the exception of the moving thermometer fluid, both sides were identical.

Exposing this lie to the viewers didn’t set well with some people, include the supposed “fairness” watchdogs over at Media Matters, who called the analysis a “waste of time”. Of course it’s only a “waste of time” when you prove their man Gore was faking the whole thing, otherwise they wouldn’t care. Personally I consider it a badge of honor for them to take notice because they usually reserve such vitriol for high profile news they don’t like, so apparently I have “arrived”.
The reason why I took so much time then to show this chicanery was Mr. Gore’s pronouncement in an interview the day the video aired.
His specific claim was:
“The deniers claim that it’s some kind of hoax and that the global scientific community is lying to people,” he said. “It’s not a hoax, it’s high school physics.” – Al Gore in an interview with MNN 9/14/2011
So easy a high school kid can do it. Right?
Bill Nye, in his narration at 0:48 in the video says:
You can replicate this effect yourself in a simple lab experiment, here’s how.
…and at 1:10 in the video Nye says:
Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.
So, I decided to find out if that was true and if anyone could really replicate that claim, or if this was just more stagecraft chicanery. I was betting that nobody on Gore’s production team actually did this experiment, or if they did do it, it wasn’t successful, because otherwise, why would they have to fake the results in post production?
The split screen video at 1:17, a screencap of which is a few paragraphs above shows a temperature difference of 2°F. Since Mr. Gore provided no other data, I’ll use that as the standard to meet for a successful experiment.
The first task is to get all the exact same equipment. Again, since Mr. Gore doesn’t provide anything other than the video, finding all of that took some significant effort and time. There’s no bill of materials to work with so I had to rely on finding each item from the visuals. While I found the cookie jars and oral thermometers early on, finding the lamp fixtures, the heat lamps for them, the CO2 tank and the CO2 tank valve proved to be more elusive. Surprisingly, the valve turned out to be the hardest of all items to locate, taking about two weeks from the time I started searching to the time I had located it, ordered it and it arrived. The reason? It isn’t called a valve, but rather a “In-Line On/Off Air Adapter”. Finding the terminology was half the battle. Another surprise was finding that the heat lamps and fixtures were for lizards and terrariums and not some general purpose use. Fortunately the fixtures and lamps were sold together by the same company. While the fixtures supported up to 150 watts, Mr. Gore made no specification on bulb type or wattage, so I chose the middle of the road 100 watt bulbs from the 50, 100, and 150 watt choices available.
I believe that I have done due diligence (as much as possible given no instructions from Gore) and located all the original equipment to accurately replicate the experiment as it was presented. Here’s the bill of materials and links to suppliers needed to replicate Al Gore’s experiment as it is shown in the Climate 101 video:
====================================================
BILL OF MATERIALS
QTY 2 Anchor Hocking Cookie Jar with Lid
http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=187543
QTY2 Geratherm Oral Thermometer Non-Mercury http://www.pocketnurse.com/Geratherm-Oral-Thermometer-Non-Mercury/productinfo/06-74-5826/
QTY 2 Globe Coin Bank
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150661053386
QTY 2 Fluker`s Repta Clamp-Lamp with Ceramic Sockets for Terrariums (max 150 watts, 8 1/2 Inch Bulb) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluker-s-Repta-Clamp-Lamp-150-watts-8-1-2-Inch-Bulb-/200663082632
QTY2 Zoo Med Red Infrared Heat Lamp 100W
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200594870618
QTY1 Empire – Pure Energy – Aluminum Co2 Tank – 20 oz
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190563856367
QTY 1 RAP4 In-Line On/Off Air Adapter
http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/rap4-in-line-on-off-air-adapter
QTY 1 flexible clear plastic hose, 48″ in length, from local Lowes hardware to fit RAP4 In-Line On/Off Air Adapter above.
====================================================
Additionally, since Mr. Gore never actually proved that CO2 had been released from the CO2 paintball tank into one of the jars, I ordered a portable CO2 meter for just that purpose:
It has a CO2 metering accuracy of: ± 50ppm ±5% reading value. While not laboratory grade, it works well enough to prove the existence of elevated CO2 concentrations in one of the jars. It uses a non-dispersive infrared diffusion sensor (NDIR) which is self calibrating, which seems perfect for the job.
===================================================
Once I got all of the equipment in, the job was to do some testing to make sure it all worked. I also wanted to be sure the two oral thermometers were calibrated such they read identically. For that, I prepared a water bath to conduct that experiment.
CAVEAT: For those that value form over substance, yes these are not slick professionally edited videos like Mr. Gore presented. They aren’t intended to be. They ARE intended to be a complete, accurate, and most importantly unedited record of the experimental work I performed. Bear in mind that while Mr. Gore has million$ to hire professional studios and editors, all I have is a consumer grade video camera, my office and my wits. If I were still working in broadcast television, you can bet I would have done this in the TV studio.
==============================================================
STEP 1 Calibrate the Oral Thermometers
Here’s my first video showing how I calibrated the oral thermometers, which is very important if you want to have an accurate experimental result.
Note that the two thermometers read 98.1°F at the conclusion of the test, as shown in this screencap from my video @ about 5:35:
STEP 2 Calibrate the Infrared Thermometer
Since I plan to make use of an electronic Infrared thermometer in these experiments, I decided to calibrate it against the water bath also. Some folks may see this as unnecessary, since it is pre-calibrated, but I decided to do it anyway. It makes for interesting viewing
==============================================================
STEP 3 Demonstrate how glass blocks IR using the Infrared Thermometer
The way an actual greenhouse works is by trapping infrared radiation. Glass is transparent to visible light, but not to infrared light, as we see below.
![greenhouseeffects[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/greenhouseeffects1.jpg?resize=400%2C459&quality=83)
By itself, that would be enough to declare the experiment invalid, but not only will I show the problem of the experimental setup being flawed, I’ll go to full on replication.
Using the warm water bath and the infrared thermometer, it becomes easy to demonstrate this effect.
Since Mr. Gore’s experiment used infrared heat lamps illuminating two glass jars, I decided to test that as well:
==============================================================
STEP 4 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using the same equipment – duration of 10 minutes
At 1:10 in the Climate 101 video narrator Bill Nye the science guy says:
Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.
Since this is “simple high school physics” according to Mr. Gore, this should be a cinch to replicate. I took a “within minutes” from the narration to be just that, so I tried an experiment with 10 minutes of duration. I also explain the experimental setup and using the CO2 meter prove that CO2 is in fact injected into Jar “B”. My apologies for the rambling dialog, which wasn’t scripted, but explained as I went along. And, the camera work is one-handed while I’m speaking and setting up the experiment, so what it lacks in production quality it makes up in reality.
You’ll note that after 10 minutes, it appears there was no change in either thermometer. Also, remember these are ORAL thermometers, which hold the reading (so you can take it out of your mouth and hand it to mom and ask “can I stay home from school today”?). So for anyone concerned about the length of time after I turned off the lamps, don’t be. In order to reset the thermometers you have to shake them to force the liquid back down into the bulb.
Here’s the screencaps of the two thermometer readings from Jar A and B:
Clearly, 10 minutes isn’t enough time for the experiment to work. So let’s scratch off the idea from narration of “a few minutes” and go for a longer period:
RESULT: No change, no difference in temperature. Nothing near the 2°F rise shown in the video. Inconclusive.
==============================================================
STEP 5 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using the same equipment – duration of 30 minutes
Ok, identical setup as before, the only difference is time, the experiment runs 30 minutes long. I’ve added a digital timer you can watch as the experiment progresses.
And here are the screencaps from the video above of the results:
RESULT: slight rise and difference in temperature 97.4°F for Jar “A” Air, and 97.2°F for Jar “B” CO2. Nothing near the 2°F rise shown in the video.
==============================================================
STEP 6 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment, using digital logging thermometer – duration of 30 minutes
In this experiment, I’m substituting the liquid in glass oral thermometers with some small self contained battery powered digital logging thermometers with LCD displays.
This model:
Details here
Specification Sheet / Manual
USB-2-LCD+ Temperature Datalogger
I used two identical units in the experiment replication:
And here are the results graphed by the application that comes with the datalogger. Red is Temperature, Blue is Humidity, Green is dewpoint
The graphs are automatically different vertical scales and thus can be a bit confusing, so I’ve take the raw data for each and graphed temperature only:
After watching my own video, I was concerned that maybe I was getting a bit of a direct line of the visible portion of the heat lamp into the sensor housing onto the thermistor, since they were turned on their side. So I ran the experiment again with the dataloggers mounted vertically in paper cups to ensure the thermistors were shielded from any direct radiation at any wavelength. See this video:
Both runs of the USB datalogger are graphed together below:
RESULTS:
Run 1 slight rise and difference in temperature 43.5°C for Jar “A” Air with Brief pulse to 44°C , and 43.0°C for Jar “B” CO2.
Run 2 had an ended with a 1°C difference, with plain air in Jar A being warmer than Jar “B with CO2.
Jar “A” Air temperature led Jar “B” CO2 during the entire experiment on both runs
The datalogger output files are available here:
JarA Air only run1.txt JarB CO2 run1.txt
JarA Air only run2.txt JarB CO2 run2.txt
==============================================================
STEP 7 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using a high resolution NIST calibrated digital logging thermometer – duration of 30 minutes
In this experiment I use a high resolution (0.1F resolution) and NIST calibrated data logger with calibrated probes. Data was collected over my LAN to special software. This is the datalogger model:
Data sheet: Model E Series And the software used to log data is described here
Here’s the experiment:
I had to spend a lot of time waiting for the Jar “B” probe to come to parity with Jar “A” due to the cooling effect of the CO2 I introduced. As we all know, when a gas expands it cools, and that’s exactly what happens to CO2 released under pressure. You can see the effect early in the flat area of the graph below.
Here’s the end result screencap real-time graphing software used in the experiment, click the image to expand the graph full size.
RESULTS:
Peak value Jar A with air was at 18:04 117.3°F
Peak value Jar B with CO2 was at 18:04 116.7°F
Once again, air led CO2 through the entire experiment.
Note that I allowed this experiment to go through a cool down after I turned off the Infrared heat lamps, which is the slope after the peak. Interestingly, while Jar “A” (probe1 in green) with Air, led Jar “B” (Probe 2 in red) with CO2, the positions reversed shortly after the lamps turned off.
The CO2 filled jar was now losing heat slower than the plain air jar, even though plain air Jar “A” had warmed slightly faster than the CO2 Jar “B”.
Here’s the datalogger output files for each probe:
Climate101-replication-Probe01-(JarA – Air).csv
Climate101-replication-Probe02-(JarB – CO2).csv
Climate101-replication-Probe03-(Ambient Air).csv
What could explain this reversal after the lamps were turned off? The answer is here at the Engineer’s Edge in the form of this table:
Heat Transfer Table of Content
This chart gives the thermal conductivity of gases as a function of temperature.
Unless otherwise noted, the values refer to a pressure of 100 kPa (1 bar) or to the saturation vapor pressure if that is less than 100 kPa.
The notation P = 0 indicates the low pressure limiting value is given. In general, the P = 0 and P = 100 kPa values differ by less than 1%.
Units are milliwatts per meter kelvin.
Note the values for Air and for CO2 that I highlighted in the 300K column. 300K is 80.3°F.
Air is a better conductor of heat than CO2.
==============================================================
So, here is what I think is going on with Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 experiment.
- As we know, the Climate101 video used infrared heat lamps
- The glass cookie jars chosen don’t allow the full measure of infrared from the lamps to enter the center of the jar and affect the gas. I showed this two different ways with the infrared camera in videos above.
- During the experiments, I showed the glass jars heating up using the infrared camera. Clearly they were absorbing the infrared energy from the lamps.
- The gases inside the jars, air and pure CO2 thus had to be heated by secondary heat emission from the glass as it was being heated. They were not absorbing infrared from the lamps, but rather heat from contact with the glass.
- Per the engineering table, air is a better conductor of heat than pure CO2, so it warms faster, and when the lamps are turned off, it cools faster.
- The difference value of 2°F shown in the Climate 101 video split screen was never met in any of the experiments I performed.
- The condition stated in the Climate 101 video of “Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.” was not met in any of the experiments I performed. In fact it was exactly the opposite. Air consistently warmed faster than CO2.
- Thus, the experiment as designed by Mr. Gore does not show the greenhouse effect as we know it in our atmosphere, it does show how heat transfer works and differences in heat transfer rates with different substances, but nothing else.
Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 experiment is falsified, and could not work given the equipment he specified. If they actually tried to perform the experiment themselves, perhaps this is why they had to resort to stagecraft in the studio to fake the temperature rise on the split screen thermometers.
The experiment as presented by Al Gore and Bill Nye “the science guy” is a failure, and not representative of the greenhouse effect related to CO2 in our atmosphere. The video as presented, is not only faked in post production, the premise is also false and could never work with the equipment they demonstrated. Even with superior measurement equipment it doesn’t work, but more importantly, it couldn’t work as advertised.
The design failure was the glass cookie jar combined with infrared heat lamps.
Gore FAIL.
=============================================================
UPDATE: 4PM PST Some commenters are taking away far more than intended from this essay. Therefore I am repeating this caveat I posted in my first essay where I concentrated on the video editing and stagecraft issues:
I should make it clear that I’m not doubting that CO2 has a positive radiative heating effect in our atmosphere, due to LWIR re-radiation, that is well established by science. What I am saying is that Mr. Gore’s Climate Reality Project did a poor job of demonstrating an experiment, so poor in fact that they had to fabricate portions of the presentation, and that the experiment itself (if they actually did it, we can’t tell) would show a completely different physical mechanism than what actually occurs in our atmosphere.
No broader take away (other than the experiment was faked and fails) was intended, expressed or implied – Anthony
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.















davidmhoffer says:
October 24, 2011 at 10:10 am
Facts and logic have failed completely, what else is there? 😉
If people do not want to be swayed [because it would destroy their world view], they cannot be swayed by any means. But we can at least show others what the facts are.
“”””” HenryP says:
…………………………….
October 23, 2011 at 11:00 pmThis is the only one of your statements that is nearly correct – and even this is not quite true, as N2 and O2 have very weak absorption due to collision induced effects (when two N2 molecules bump into each other the result is not symmetric and can absorb IR) “””””
!!!!! HOORAY !!!!!
Finally; some sanity.
Everybody repeat after me; ” Mono and diatomic gases gases DON’T absorb or radiate in the Infra-Red, since they have no electric dipole moment. ”
Well CO2 doesn’t have any electric dipole moment either; so clearly it can’t absorb or radiate in the infra-red either. ??
What’s that you say; the CO2 molecule “distorts”, as in bending or assymmetrically stretching; and in doing so, it aquires a non-zero electric dipole moment; and then can act like a Hertzian antenna, and radiate or absorb electro-magnetic radiation. In that case, and many other molecular spectral situations, the radiation is a resonance phenomen, driven by and driving a mechanical oscillation at the same frequency as the EM radiation.
Well if you did the repeat after me, then we all spoke nonsense.
What was that HenryP said; when two N2 molecules bump in to each other the result is not symmetric and can absorb IR.
BUMP IN TO EACH OTHER is the very essence of what Myrrh and others call “HEAT” but is actually simply the process of bumping in to each other..
The mean velocity of the molecules while in free flight between the “bump into each other” is in fact characterized by the Temperature of that collection of molecules; and makes clear WHY matter is necessary for the process of heating to occur. No bumping; no heating.
Now the velocities of the molecules in a group at some specific Temperature, have the well known Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, and the higher the Temperature, the higher the kinetic energies of the individual molecules in the group and the bigger the bump, when any two collide.
These molecular collision energies are not quantized, they can have almost any value and the energy exchange in the “bump” can be quite variable too.
And the other key observation HenryP makes is that the result is not symmetric.
Wow!! I think HenryP is saying the molecule distorts; and thereby obtains a non-zero electric dipole moment, and now it can absorb and emit, in the infra-red; or anywhere else for that matter; depending on the actual center of mass collision energy of any two molecules.
The source of the distortion is quite obvious. The “electron cloud”, and the molecule nuclei, have identical charge values (opposite signed), so they generate the same sorts of electrostatic fields and forces; “”” BUT “”” The nuclei are about 4,000 times more massiver than the elctron clouds.
So the collision energies and momenta are confined pretty much to the nuclei, which charge on towards each other long after the electron clouds have pretty much stopped, and have started to back out of the collision.
The nuclei actually nearer 3675 times as massive, have to get much closer to each other, to decelerate, and then rebound off each other, so you should get EM emission; or absorption by the electrons to begin with, over a fairly long period of time, followed by a shorter period of emission from the protons, once they two start decelerating.
Don’t try to argue that such a brief encounter of two molecules is too short for any significant amount of emission or absorption of EM radiation to occur.
The collision time of two ordinary atmospheric molecules at ordinary T&P., is an astronomic amount of time of geologic proportions; and all sorts of interesting things have time to occur.
Just remember that virtually all of the really interesting things of the early history of the universe; the “Archeo-Physics”, we might call it, all happened during the first 10^-43 seconds after the big bang. After that, the universe became a rather boring place.
So the interraction time of two ordinay neutral molecules involved in an ordinary thermal energy collision; is an eternity of time for the emission or absorption of electromagnetic radiation in a continuous “Thermal” spectrum that depends only on the Temperature of the collection of molecules.
It isn’t any different from BLACK BODY RADIATION, and follows the same Planckian spectral distribution.
No we don’t call it BB radiation, because a single molecule, which emits or absorbs EM radiation is not capable of absorbing any and all EM radiation that falls on from down to but not including DC up to beyond the farthes fringes of the gamma ray spectrum. But it is “Planckian radiation and is quite detectable.
The neutral non-polar molecules of the atmosphere DO emit, and absorb EM radiation in the visible, IR, UV and anywhere else in the spectral continuum. It just is not a lot of energy per molecule, andi t has to compete withan extgremely noisy background of competing radiations
So HenryP you do win a cigar; it’s that assymmetrical distortion, that unfolds the antenna of the bumping molecules uiring the collision, and permits the emission and absorption to occur.
HenryP says:
October 24, 2011 at 8:48 am
Myrrh says
Water is a transparent medium for visible light,
Henry@Myrrh& leif
Water & water vapor is in fact not transparent to visible light. I have already shown that to Jimmy.
There is some absorption in the visible region, leading to re-radiation.
This is also the reason that you will quickly grap for your sun glasses when humidity is high, because even with the sun shining for you from your back and driving in your car, you can feel that the light from the sun is re-radiated by the water vapor in the atmosphere.
I have explained it in a way that ordinary people can understand it, here,
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011
I will be glad to hear your comments on that piece if there is anything in it that you don’t agree with.
And what’s that got to do with creating heat? You’re talking about optical effects (see pages such as http://userpages.umbc.edu/~tokay/chapter8new.html), I’m arguing about the science fiction premise of the whole energy budget. The claim is that shortwaves from the Sun heat land and oceans of Earth and thermal infrared direct from the Sun doesn’t have any part in heating land and oceans. Heat is created when whole atoms and molecules are set to sustained vibrational/rotational movement, visible light and the other short waves do not have the power to do this. They affect matter on the electron scale, not on the larger molecule scale. The invisible Thermal infrared direct from the Sun is the heat we feel from the Sun, it is powerful, it heats land and water and us, we are mostly water. As I said, the problem here is a sense of scale is missing.
What is ludicrous, is that until this meme was introduced into education to screw science understanding the better to sell the AGW con, everyone understood the difference between light and heat energies. You, generic, can’t see the wood for the trees. Water is a transparent medium for visible light, even on an electron scale the molecules of water don’t let visible in to play, that is how light is transmitted through water. Visible light is absorbed by the electrons of oxygen and nitrogen molecules, this does not create heat either. Absorption is a word that needs to be understood in context. Visible light absorbed in oceans is from general speech, in physics it is not absorbed, because absorbed has a particular meaning of taking in the energy, either on electron or atom/molecule scale. Not all absorption in electronic scale creates heat, the same light (not hot, not thermal) can be reflected/scattered back out, as blue light in the sky, it can be used for chemical change to sugar, which does not heat the matter taking it in, etc. I’m talking about the basic premise of this junk energy budget – it completely excludes the REAL heat from the Sun which is capable of raising the temperature of matter, of heating up real land and real oceans. The Sun’s actual thermal energy, which we can all feel as heat, is excluded. We do not feel visible light or UV or near IR as heat, they are not thermal energies. AGWSF has swapped the properties.
I really don’t know how else to say that. Visible light is not absorbed by water in the physics sense, it cannot raise the temperature of water, it cannot heat the oceans and land. This con has been a long time in the making, you all need to step back from tinkering with the minutia which is just confusing you until you get the basic differences right.
Until you generic are able to show that UV Visible and Near IR are even capable of heating water and land you’re all just playing at this.
Myrrh
I see you still have not read chapter 2 of “light Absorption in Sea Water:
http://www.springer.com/earth+sciences+and+geography/oceanography/book/978-1-4419-2149-9
Why not?
PS George E – I don’t smoke otherwise I would claim that cigar.
PS HenryP : As Lief says, you are seeing reflections. Also you have misinterpreted that spectrum – it is an absorption spectrum.
Myrrh says:
October 24, 2011 at 3:17 pm
Until you generic are able to show that UV Visible and Near IR are even capable of heating water and land you’re all just playing at this.
As I already showed you, visible light is absorbed and excites the (a,0,b) overtone vibrations. This raises the internal energy of the molecules. When such a molecule collides with other molecules, that extra energy is transferred into kinetic energy, i.e. heat. Do us a favor and learn a bit. E.g. by reading the chapter from the textbook I referred you to.
Have to say that not one photosynthesis equation that I have come across says that heat is also produced. And given that our planet is covered by plankton and vegetation it seems to me that it is wrong to say that all visible sunlight heats the surface.
zac says:
October 24, 2011 at 4:26 pm
Have to say that not one photosynthesis equation that I have come across says that heat is also produced. And given that our planet is covered by plankton and vegetation it seems to me that it is wrong to say that all visible sunlight heats the surface.
I was just the other day out in the Mojave Desert with nary a plant. It was really hot…
You have just reminded me. Cycling through the El Campo region in California it was much cooler in the inner “green belt” than in the desert outer areas. Was it the irrigation or the plants that caused it?
Zac,
Have to say that not one photosynthesis equation that I have come across says that heat is also produced
Well it is not produced immediately – it is stored. Photosynthesis takes as input CO2, H2o and energy from the sun, and after a long set of biochemical events, produces sugars like glucose or fructose (both of which have the formula C6H12O6). But this is an endothermic reaction ie energy (heat) is required to produce the sugar, so effectively it has stored energy. This stored energy is then released when you consume your glucose rich sports drink and go for a run, at which point you are making your own contribution to the earth’s energy balance by releasing that energy as LWIR.
jimmi_the_dalek says:
October 24, 2011 at 3:51 pm
Myrrh
I see you still have not read chapter 2 of “light Absorption in Sea Water:
http://www.springer.com/earth+sciences+and+geography/oceanography/book/978-1-4419-2149-9
Why not?
Because it is irrelevant to what I’ve asked for. What it shows is you don’t understand the word ‘absorption’. Find me where it says visible light heats the oceans, how it is absorbed by pigments and organic matter is a non heat creating effect, just as is the chemical creation of sugars in photosynthesis.
You claim in the junk energy budget that shortwave heats land and oceans. There is a lot of land, various types of rock and plant life on it, there is a lot of ocean, a lot of rivers and lakes, that these shortwave are claimed to heat directly, to directly HEAT UP, all of it, so much that it raises the temp of the Earth to radiate the huge amount of thermal infrared which is heat. Get real here. You have excluded the real direct thermal infrared from the Sun from playing any part in heating the vast areas of land and oceans and replaced it with the nonsense that short wave is capable of taking its place. Utterly ridiculous, you just can’t see how much..
………………
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 24, 2011 at 3:58 pm
Myrrh says:
October 24, 2011 at 3:17 pm
Until you generic are able to show that UV Visible and Near IR are even capable of heating water and land you’re all just playing at this.
As I already showed you, visible light is absorbed and excites the (a,0,b) overtone vibrations. This raises the internal energy of the molecules. When such a molecule collides with other molecules, that extra energy is transferred into kinetic energy, i.e. heat. Do us a favor and learn a bit. E.g. by reading the chapter from the textbook I referred you to.
That is not a textbook, it is a study, I have said that I can’t access it and even if I could it is not what I asked for. I can’t check your context. That is not what I asked for. I asked for a real textbook which supports your claim that on a molecular level visible light, all visible light, heats water.
You can wriggle as much as you like and some here may well be so very impressed by you and your ‘credentials’, but you and I know that you can’t produce it. And you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.
Until you generic are able to show that UV Visible and Near IR are even capable of heating water and land
and,
Because it is irrelevant to what I’ve asked for. What it shows is you don’t understand the word ‘absorption’.
Hold on a minute, I think it is time for you to define some terms (should have asked this ages ago).
What do you mean by ‘absorbed’ and what do you think happens to the energy in light that is absorbed?
What do you mean by ‘thermal IR’ if you are excluding near IR from the things that heat earth?
What are the wavelengths (or frequencies) of the ‘thermal IR’?
Which is more energetic (on a photon by photon basis) visible light, near IR, or thermal IR?
What wavelengths dominate the sun’s output in term sof total energy?
Myrrh says:
October 24, 2011 at 5:31 pm
That is not a textbook, it is a study, I have said that I can’t access it and even if I could it is not what I asked for. I can’t check your context. That is not what I asked for. I asked for a real textbook which supports your claim that on a molecular level visible light, all visible light, heats water.
http://www.amazon.com/Absorption-Absorbents-Atmospheric-Oceanographic-Sciences/dp/sitb-next/0387307532
“discusses the fundamentals of light absorption at various depths in seawaters of different trophicity by absorbers of diverse origin. The authors have drawn their information from a substantial body of contemporary research results published in the subject literature (over 700 references) as well as their own work during the last 30 years. No other book presently available examines the issues of light absorption and absorbers in seawaters in such a manner.
The book is intended primarily for students, engineers and scientists professionally involved with the marine environment”
Thus a textbook.
You don’t need to buy the whole book. I gave you a link to chapter 2 which discusses absorption by water.
George E. Smith
Wow. Best explanation I’ve ever read and I learned a whole bunch too. Thanks!
jimmi_the_dalek says:
October 24, 2011 at 6:19 pm
Until you generic are able to show that UV Visible and Near IR are even capable of heating water and land
and,
Because it is irrelevant to what I’ve asked for. What it shows is you don’t understand the word ‘absorption’.
Hold on a minute, I think it is time for you to define some terms (should have asked this ages ago).
What do you mean by ‘absorbed’ and what do you think happens to the energy in light that is absorbed?
What do you mean by ‘thermal IR’ if you are excluding near IR from the things that heat earth?
What are the wavelengths (or frequencies) of the ‘thermal IR’?
Which is more energetic (on a photon by photon basis) visible light, near IR, or thermal IR?
What wavelengths dominate the sun’s output in term sof total energy?
Until you generic are able to show that UV Visible and Near IR are even capable of heating water and land you don’t know what you’re talking about. Discussion of terms is waste of my time, you’ve generic have already shown you don’t understand the word ‘absorption’.
Just go an fetch what I’ve asked for – textbook proof of the physics on a molecular scale for your claim, that visible light, all visible light, heats water and applied.
The only important question here is, do you understand what I’m asking for?
I asked for a real textbook which supports your claim that on a molecular level visible light, all visible light, heats water.
OK Myrrh,
So you don’t know the answers to those questions.
Guess I’ll leave it at that then.
By the way, I have just realised that the book I was asking Myrrrh to read is the same one Lief was suggesting – sorry for the duplication.
Myrrh says:
October 24, 2011 at 6:54 pm
I asked for a real textbook which supports your claim that on a molecular level visible light, all visible light, heats water.
Not only did you get a reference to such a textbook, but also a condensed explanation that should be understandable to the general reader: “A water molecule consists of an oxygen atom with two hydrogen atoms sitting on ‘hydrogen bonds’ [like little springs sticking out from the oxygen atom]. The two springs form an angle of some 105 degrees. There are three main modes of vibrations: mode 1, where the hydrogen atoms vibrate in and out in unison [‘symmetric vibration’]; mode 2 where the bonds bend back and forth, changing the angle;and mode 3 where the hydrogen atoms vibrate in opposite directions [when one goes in, the other goes out – called ‘asymmetric vibration’]. Because of the dense packing in liquid water, mode 2 does not happen [there is not enough room], so in liquid water only mode 1 and 3 occur. As with any vibration, there is a fundamental frequency [which is activated by far infrared], but here are also overtones [or harmonics – this is what makes a note, like ‘A’, sound differently on a violin and a trumpet]. The overtones that combine mode 1 and 3 [combined to 6th and 5th harmonics] correspond to the visual frequencies of light of 511 nm [green] and 606 nm [yellow], so visual light can and does excite vibrations. Overtones are normally of much less amplitude [strength] than the fundamental vibrations, so the visual light absorption is up to million times smaller than that of far IR. That infrared is absorbed [and thus heats] in the first few millimeters of the water column, while it takes 100 meters or more of water to absorb [and be heated by] visual light. But the ocean is deep enough for that, so even visual light gets absorbed [otherwise the ocean floor would be bathed in light – which it is not] and thus heats the oceans.”
Are you saying that you are not able to understand the above? Perhaps, you could point out exactly which words you have trouble with, so further explanation can be given.
Myrrh reminds me of the ancient Greek philosopher who’s theory was that people could see because of “rays” that their eyes emitted. When asked how the Sun going down at night prevented the “rays” from people’s eyes from working at night, he advised that the matter was “irrelevant”.
Myrrh says:
October 24, 2011 at 6:54 pm
What it shows is you don’t understand the word ‘absorption’.
You can learn more about this subject here
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~etrnsfer/water.htm
Myrrh says:
October 24, 2011 at 6:54 pm
What it shows is you don’t understand the word ‘absorption’.
Theory is one thing, but actual, careful measurements are king.
Here is Wang’s very careful work [the result is on page 87]:
http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/85959/Wang.pdf?sequence=1
Pages 2-5 gives a short overview of the theory.
You see, the absorption of visible light by [pure] water has been studied extensively.
I was going to take a picture of my kids with my digital camera, but after reading Myrrh’s explanation of the physics, it dawned on me that digital cameras are impossible. One would have thought that a few hundred million people who bought the darned things might have complained that they don’t work, but as Myrrh has explained, they were taught in school to believe that they do and hence, they see pictures that aren’t there. Now knowing that my digital camera doesn’t actually work, I dug into the old boxes in the back of my garage to retrieve my old analog camera. I was wondering where to find film for the darn thing when I realised that based on Myrrh’s physics, the analog camera is impossible too. I think the whole medical establishment must also be in on the hoax, that’s how they justify all those expensive cancer treatments and operations based on x-ray photos that are also impossible.
You’re about to be rich Myrrh. There’s a ton of class action law suits coming up based on your work, and your testimony as an expert witness is going to be in high demand. You could probably start your own school and certify practitioners in your brand of physics to take some of the load off. It would be pretty quick training I think. Memorizing lines such as “that’s impossible” and “that’s irrelevant” ought to take very little time, and with your certification behind them, I’m certain the courts will accept their testimony as proof that pictures don’t exist.
davidmhoffer says:
October 24, 2011 at 9:59 pm
I was going to take a picture of my kids with my digital camera, but after reading Myrrh’s explanation of the physics…
We should cut Myrrh some slack. It is no shame to be ignorant or to have an unshakable wrong world view. The best we can do is to continue patiently to attempt to impart some knowledge. This may fall on barren ground [as it does most of the time], but one may hope that a seed will take root one day.
To what end? There are more efficient ways of ending thread highjacking. The hundreds of yards of “column space” his OC thickness have occupied could have much better been spent on topics of actual interest and import.
Brian H says:
October 24, 2011 at 11:28 pm
The hundreds of yards of “column space” his OC thickness have occupied could have much better been spent on topics of actual interest and import.
Except that this thread is dead anyway [no other person has raised more interesting things]. In the meantime we have learned why water is blue and how molecules vibrate.
George you are funny.
But I was asking if there was something wrong in my reasoning here: http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011
I will be glad to hear your comments on that piece if there is anything in it that you don’t agree with.
Brian H : “To what end?”
I think Leif has the best approach. Let’s face it, we’ve all learned a lot from the exchange (I have) and if time and space permits it’s not a bad idea to let the scientific arguments take their course – the last thing science needs is protection from scientific challenge, no matter how off-beam that challenge might appear at first. Think Einstein. Or Warren and Marshall, or Mpemba, or, thinking the other way round, Lysenko. As Leif said, he doesn’t have to convince Myrrh.