This will be a top “sticky” post for a day or two. New stories will appear below this one.
Readers may recall my previous essay where I pointed out how Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 Video, used in his “24 hours of climate reality”, had some serious credibility issues with editing things to make it appear as if they had actually performed the experiment, when they clearly did not. It has taken me awhile to replicate the experiment. Delays were a combination of acquisition and shipping problems, combined with my availability since I had to do this on nights and weekends. I worked initially using the original techniques and equipment, and I’ve replicated the Climate 101 experiment in other ways using improved equipment. I’ve compiled several videos. My report follows.
First. as a refresher, here’s the Climate 101 video again:
I direct your attention to the 1 minute mark, lasting through 1:30, where the experiment is presented.
And here’s my critique of it: Video analysis and scene replication suggests that Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project fabricated their Climate 101 video “Simple Experiment”
The most egregious faked presentation in that video was the scene with the split screen thermometers, edited to appear as if the temperature in the jar of elevated CO2 level was rising faster than the jar without elevated CO2 level.
It turns out that the thermometers were never in the jar recording the temperature rise presented in the split screen and the entire presentation was nothing but stagecraft and editing.
This was proven beyond a doubt by the photoshop differencing technique used to compare each side of the split screen. With the exception of the moving thermometer fluid, both sides were identical.

Exposing this lie to the viewers didn’t set well with some people, include the supposed “fairness” watchdogs over at Media Matters, who called the analysis a “waste of time”. Of course it’s only a “waste of time” when you prove their man Gore was faking the whole thing, otherwise they wouldn’t care. Personally I consider it a badge of honor for them to take notice because they usually reserve such vitriol for high profile news they don’t like, so apparently I have “arrived”.
The reason why I took so much time then to show this chicanery was Mr. Gore’s pronouncement in an interview the day the video aired.
His specific claim was:
“The deniers claim that it’s some kind of hoax and that the global scientific community is lying to people,” he said. “It’s not a hoax, it’s high school physics.” – Al Gore in an interview with MNN 9/14/2011
So easy a high school kid can do it. Right?
Bill Nye, in his narration at 0:48 in the video says:
You can replicate this effect yourself in a simple lab experiment, here’s how.
…and at 1:10 in the video Nye says:
Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.
So, I decided to find out if that was true and if anyone could really replicate that claim, or if this was just more stagecraft chicanery. I was betting that nobody on Gore’s production team actually did this experiment, or if they did do it, it wasn’t successful, because otherwise, why would they have to fake the results in post production?
The split screen video at 1:17, a screencap of which is a few paragraphs above shows a temperature difference of 2°F. Since Mr. Gore provided no other data, I’ll use that as the standard to meet for a successful experiment.
The first task is to get all the exact same equipment. Again, since Mr. Gore doesn’t provide anything other than the video, finding all of that took some significant effort and time. There’s no bill of materials to work with so I had to rely on finding each item from the visuals. While I found the cookie jars and oral thermometers early on, finding the lamp fixtures, the heat lamps for them, the CO2 tank and the CO2 tank valve proved to be more elusive. Surprisingly, the valve turned out to be the hardest of all items to locate, taking about two weeks from the time I started searching to the time I had located it, ordered it and it arrived. The reason? It isn’t called a valve, but rather a “In-Line On/Off Air Adapter”. Finding the terminology was half the battle. Another surprise was finding that the heat lamps and fixtures were for lizards and terrariums and not some general purpose use. Fortunately the fixtures and lamps were sold together by the same company. While the fixtures supported up to 150 watts, Mr. Gore made no specification on bulb type or wattage, so I chose the middle of the road 100 watt bulbs from the 50, 100, and 150 watt choices available.
I believe that I have done due diligence (as much as possible given no instructions from Gore) and located all the original equipment to accurately replicate the experiment as it was presented. Here’s the bill of materials and links to suppliers needed to replicate Al Gore’s experiment as it is shown in the Climate 101 video:
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BILL OF MATERIALS
QTY 2 Anchor Hocking Cookie Jar with Lid
http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=187543
QTY2 Geratherm Oral Thermometer Non-Mercury http://www.pocketnurse.com/Geratherm-Oral-Thermometer-Non-Mercury/productinfo/06-74-5826/
QTY 2 Globe Coin Bank
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150661053386
QTY 2 Fluker`s Repta Clamp-Lamp with Ceramic Sockets for Terrariums (max 150 watts, 8 1/2 Inch Bulb) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluker-s-Repta-Clamp-Lamp-150-watts-8-1-2-Inch-Bulb-/200663082632
QTY2 Zoo Med Red Infrared Heat Lamp 100W
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200594870618
QTY1 Empire – Pure Energy – Aluminum Co2 Tank – 20 oz
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190563856367
QTY 1 RAP4 In-Line On/Off Air Adapter
http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/rap4-in-line-on-off-air-adapter
QTY 1 flexible clear plastic hose, 48″ in length, from local Lowes hardware to fit RAP4 In-Line On/Off Air Adapter above.
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Additionally, since Mr. Gore never actually proved that CO2 had been released from the CO2 paintball tank into one of the jars, I ordered a portable CO2 meter for just that purpose:
It has a CO2 metering accuracy of: ± 50ppm ±5% reading value. While not laboratory grade, it works well enough to prove the existence of elevated CO2 concentrations in one of the jars. It uses a non-dispersive infrared diffusion sensor (NDIR) which is self calibrating, which seems perfect for the job.
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Once I got all of the equipment in, the job was to do some testing to make sure it all worked. I also wanted to be sure the two oral thermometers were calibrated such they read identically. For that, I prepared a water bath to conduct that experiment.
CAVEAT: For those that value form over substance, yes these are not slick professionally edited videos like Mr. Gore presented. They aren’t intended to be. They ARE intended to be a complete, accurate, and most importantly unedited record of the experimental work I performed. Bear in mind that while Mr. Gore has million$ to hire professional studios and editors, all I have is a consumer grade video camera, my office and my wits. If I were still working in broadcast television, you can bet I would have done this in the TV studio.
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STEP 1 Calibrate the Oral Thermometers
Here’s my first video showing how I calibrated the oral thermometers, which is very important if you want to have an accurate experimental result.
Note that the two thermometers read 98.1°F at the conclusion of the test, as shown in this screencap from my video @ about 5:35:
STEP 2 Calibrate the Infrared Thermometer
Since I plan to make use of an electronic Infrared thermometer in these experiments, I decided to calibrate it against the water bath also. Some folks may see this as unnecessary, since it is pre-calibrated, but I decided to do it anyway. It makes for interesting viewing
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STEP 3 Demonstrate how glass blocks IR using the Infrared Thermometer
The way an actual greenhouse works is by trapping infrared radiation. Glass is transparent to visible light, but not to infrared light, as we see below.
![greenhouseeffects[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/greenhouseeffects1.jpg?resize=400%2C459&quality=83)
By itself, that would be enough to declare the experiment invalid, but not only will I show the problem of the experimental setup being flawed, I’ll go to full on replication.
Using the warm water bath and the infrared thermometer, it becomes easy to demonstrate this effect.
Since Mr. Gore’s experiment used infrared heat lamps illuminating two glass jars, I decided to test that as well:
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STEP 4 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using the same equipment – duration of 10 minutes
At 1:10 in the Climate 101 video narrator Bill Nye the science guy says:
Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.
Since this is “simple high school physics” according to Mr. Gore, this should be a cinch to replicate. I took a “within minutes” from the narration to be just that, so I tried an experiment with 10 minutes of duration. I also explain the experimental setup and using the CO2 meter prove that CO2 is in fact injected into Jar “B”. My apologies for the rambling dialog, which wasn’t scripted, but explained as I went along. And, the camera work is one-handed while I’m speaking and setting up the experiment, so what it lacks in production quality it makes up in reality.
You’ll note that after 10 minutes, it appears there was no change in either thermometer. Also, remember these are ORAL thermometers, which hold the reading (so you can take it out of your mouth and hand it to mom and ask “can I stay home from school today”?). So for anyone concerned about the length of time after I turned off the lamps, don’t be. In order to reset the thermometers you have to shake them to force the liquid back down into the bulb.
Here’s the screencaps of the two thermometer readings from Jar A and B:
Clearly, 10 minutes isn’t enough time for the experiment to work. So let’s scratch off the idea from narration of “a few minutes” and go for a longer period:
RESULT: No change, no difference in temperature. Nothing near the 2°F rise shown in the video. Inconclusive.
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STEP 5 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using the same equipment – duration of 30 minutes
Ok, identical setup as before, the only difference is time, the experiment runs 30 minutes long. I’ve added a digital timer you can watch as the experiment progresses.
And here are the screencaps from the video above of the results:
RESULT: slight rise and difference in temperature 97.4°F for Jar “A” Air, and 97.2°F for Jar “B” CO2. Nothing near the 2°F rise shown in the video.
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STEP 6 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment, using digital logging thermometer – duration of 30 minutes
In this experiment, I’m substituting the liquid in glass oral thermometers with some small self contained battery powered digital logging thermometers with LCD displays.
This model:
Details here
Specification Sheet / Manual
USB-2-LCD+ Temperature Datalogger
I used two identical units in the experiment replication:
And here are the results graphed by the application that comes with the datalogger. Red is Temperature, Blue is Humidity, Green is dewpoint
The graphs are automatically different vertical scales and thus can be a bit confusing, so I’ve take the raw data for each and graphed temperature only:
After watching my own video, I was concerned that maybe I was getting a bit of a direct line of the visible portion of the heat lamp into the sensor housing onto the thermistor, since they were turned on their side. So I ran the experiment again with the dataloggers mounted vertically in paper cups to ensure the thermistors were shielded from any direct radiation at any wavelength. See this video:
Both runs of the USB datalogger are graphed together below:
RESULTS:
Run 1 slight rise and difference in temperature 43.5°C for Jar “A” Air with Brief pulse to 44°C , and 43.0°C for Jar “B” CO2.
Run 2 had an ended with a 1°C difference, with plain air in Jar A being warmer than Jar “B with CO2.
Jar “A” Air temperature led Jar “B” CO2 during the entire experiment on both runs
The datalogger output files are available here:
JarA Air only run1.txt JarB CO2 run1.txt
JarA Air only run2.txt JarB CO2 run2.txt
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STEP 7 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using a high resolution NIST calibrated digital logging thermometer – duration of 30 minutes
In this experiment I use a high resolution (0.1F resolution) and NIST calibrated data logger with calibrated probes. Data was collected over my LAN to special software. This is the datalogger model:
Data sheet: Model E Series And the software used to log data is described here
Here’s the experiment:
I had to spend a lot of time waiting for the Jar “B” probe to come to parity with Jar “A” due to the cooling effect of the CO2 I introduced. As we all know, when a gas expands it cools, and that’s exactly what happens to CO2 released under pressure. You can see the effect early in the flat area of the graph below.
Here’s the end result screencap real-time graphing software used in the experiment, click the image to expand the graph full size.
RESULTS:
Peak value Jar A with air was at 18:04 117.3°F
Peak value Jar B with CO2 was at 18:04 116.7°F
Once again, air led CO2 through the entire experiment.
Note that I allowed this experiment to go through a cool down after I turned off the Infrared heat lamps, which is the slope after the peak. Interestingly, while Jar “A” (probe1 in green) with Air, led Jar “B” (Probe 2 in red) with CO2, the positions reversed shortly after the lamps turned off.
The CO2 filled jar was now losing heat slower than the plain air jar, even though plain air Jar “A” had warmed slightly faster than the CO2 Jar “B”.
Here’s the datalogger output files for each probe:
Climate101-replication-Probe01-(JarA – Air).csv
Climate101-replication-Probe02-(JarB – CO2).csv
Climate101-replication-Probe03-(Ambient Air).csv
What could explain this reversal after the lamps were turned off? The answer is here at the Engineer’s Edge in the form of this table:
Heat Transfer Table of Content
This chart gives the thermal conductivity of gases as a function of temperature.
Unless otherwise noted, the values refer to a pressure of 100 kPa (1 bar) or to the saturation vapor pressure if that is less than 100 kPa.
The notation P = 0 indicates the low pressure limiting value is given. In general, the P = 0 and P = 100 kPa values differ by less than 1%.
Units are milliwatts per meter kelvin.
Note the values for Air and for CO2 that I highlighted in the 300K column. 300K is 80.3°F.
Air is a better conductor of heat than CO2.
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So, here is what I think is going on with Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 experiment.
- As we know, the Climate101 video used infrared heat lamps
- The glass cookie jars chosen don’t allow the full measure of infrared from the lamps to enter the center of the jar and affect the gas. I showed this two different ways with the infrared camera in videos above.
- During the experiments, I showed the glass jars heating up using the infrared camera. Clearly they were absorbing the infrared energy from the lamps.
- The gases inside the jars, air and pure CO2 thus had to be heated by secondary heat emission from the glass as it was being heated. They were not absorbing infrared from the lamps, but rather heat from contact with the glass.
- Per the engineering table, air is a better conductor of heat than pure CO2, so it warms faster, and when the lamps are turned off, it cools faster.
- The difference value of 2°F shown in the Climate 101 video split screen was never met in any of the experiments I performed.
- The condition stated in the Climate 101 video of “Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.” was not met in any of the experiments I performed. In fact it was exactly the opposite. Air consistently warmed faster than CO2.
- Thus, the experiment as designed by Mr. Gore does not show the greenhouse effect as we know it in our atmosphere, it does show how heat transfer works and differences in heat transfer rates with different substances, but nothing else.
Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 experiment is falsified, and could not work given the equipment he specified. If they actually tried to perform the experiment themselves, perhaps this is why they had to resort to stagecraft in the studio to fake the temperature rise on the split screen thermometers.
The experiment as presented by Al Gore and Bill Nye “the science guy” is a failure, and not representative of the greenhouse effect related to CO2 in our atmosphere. The video as presented, is not only faked in post production, the premise is also false and could never work with the equipment they demonstrated. Even with superior measurement equipment it doesn’t work, but more importantly, it couldn’t work as advertised.
The design failure was the glass cookie jar combined with infrared heat lamps.
Gore FAIL.
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UPDATE: 4PM PST Some commenters are taking away far more than intended from this essay. Therefore I am repeating this caveat I posted in my first essay where I concentrated on the video editing and stagecraft issues:
I should make it clear that I’m not doubting that CO2 has a positive radiative heating effect in our atmosphere, due to LWIR re-radiation, that is well established by science. What I am saying is that Mr. Gore’s Climate Reality Project did a poor job of demonstrating an experiment, so poor in fact that they had to fabricate portions of the presentation, and that the experiment itself (if they actually did it, we can’t tell) would show a completely different physical mechanism than what actually occurs in our atmosphere.
No broader take away (other than the experiment was faked and fails) was intended, expressed or implied – Anthony















zac says:
October 23, 2011 at 12:20 pm
living matter that feeds off visible light without generating heat is a massive mistake.
The living matter take up a VERY small part of the energy falling on the Earth, so have little impact on the energy budget.
leif says
Here’s one for you. Run a bath of cold water, take its temperature. Shine a visible light source onto it which does not contain thermal infrared. Perhaps HenryP October 23, 2011 at 3:30 am will be able to guide you into how to do this, let it run for a few hours, take temperature of water. Let us know the result.
Henry@leif
I doubt if you will be able to see or measure any change in temps.
I have thought about it to settle the matter.
First of all, @beng, I think laser beams are close to the wavelengths of micro waves, but to be able to actually see the beam they might overlay or add some visible stream of light (red or green) so you can see where the beam is.
Now, when we think about radiation 0-100um coming at us, it seems to me there are generally 3 possibilities.
1) it passes through the substance, case in point: IR light through N2/O2
2) it does not pass through either wholly or partially and is deflected (back radiated) at the same wavelengths ( where we find absorption in the spectrum): case in point:visible light through water, or water vapor. (remember when you need sunglasses most is when humidity is high)
3) it does not pass through either wholly or partially and is deflected (back radiated) at a higher wavelength: case in point X-rays during body search that shows us the bones and metal in the visible range.
Obviously if there is a change of wavelength, some energy in the form of heat will be left inside the substance (warming up).
Zac,
When plants absorb light it does produce heat – it is just that the heat is immediately used to promote chemical reactions – in particular to combine CO2 and H2O into sugars, since that reaction would not occur without an energy input (do you see glucose raining out of the sky?)
HenryP says:
October 23, 2011 at 12:53 pm
leif says …
I doubt if you will be able to see or measure any change in temps.
Don’t mistake me for Myrrh.
HenryP
I have thought about it to settle the matter.
First of all, @beng, I think laser beams are close to the wavelengths of micro waves, but to be able to actually see the beam they might overlay or add some visible stream of light (red or green) so you can see where the beam is.”
Henry, you can have microwave lasers , infrared lasers, visible lasers, ultraviolet lasers, but they are all essentially monochromatic i.e one wavelength. A laser is what-you-see-is-what-get.
“3) it does not pass through either wholly or partially and is deflected (back radiated) at a higher wavelength: case in point X-rays during body search that shows us the bones and metal in the visible range.”
No, no – the visible image is produced by the detector, the X rays do not wavelength, they change amplitude i.e some are absorbed. And visible has a much greater wavelength than Xrays (you are confusing wavelength with frequency)
“2) it does not pass through either wholly or partially and is deflected (back radiated) at the same wavelengths ( where we find absorption in the spectrum): case in point:visible light through water, or water vapor. (remember when you need sunglasses most is when humidity is high)”
No, no again – water does not re-radiate in the visible – does it start glowing when you shine a light on it ? (I am not talking about refections from the surface)
“1) it passes through the substance, case in point: IR light through N2/O2”
This is the only one of your statements that is nearly correct – and even this is not quite true, as N2 and O2 have very weak absorption due to collision induced effects (when two N2 molecules bump into each other the result is not symmetric and can absorb IR)
@Byz “You have a great country and you were so fortunate to have Franklin D Roosevelt in the 1930′s as he guided the ship through troubled waters and the rise of the US after the WWII to stand up to Soviet aggression is a testament to how great a president he was,”
Galane says:
October 23, 2011 at 12:39 am
FDR a great President? Google “National Industrial Recovery Act” and “National Recovery Administration”.
Those were his attempt to steer the country hard left by nationalizing all the big industries. When the Supreme Court declared it all unconstitutional, he embarked on a plan of doing it piecemeal through the creation of a lot of new government agencies we didn’t need.
___________________
Do not forget that FDR is the one who stole all the gold from US citizens and gave it to the banks to fritter away to foreigners.
Congressman McFadden’s Speeches in 1934 on “Roosevelt’s gold raid” http://www.afn.org/~govern/mcfadden.html
Is Ft Knox Empty of good delivery gold? “The Great American Disaster: How Much Gold Remains In Fort Knox?” http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/weber-c1.1.1.html
WORSE he is the one that saddle us with the new definition of the “Commerce Clause” a definition that allows the Federal Government to interfere with every aspect of our lives.
“After President Roosevelt threatened to pack the Court to dilute the influence of the uncooperative “nine old men,” a majority of the justices took to the most expansive definition of the commerce clause like a drunk to drink…..
…. Enter Roscoe Filburn, an Ohio dairy and poultry farmer, who raised a small quantity of winter wheat — some to sell, some to feed his livestock, and some to consume…. the central government told Mr. Filburn that for the next year he would be limited to planting 11 acres of wheat and harvesting 20 bushels per acre. He harvested 12 acres over his allotment for consumption on his own property. When the government fined him, Mr. Filburn refused to pay.
Wickard v. Filburn got to the Supreme Court, and in 1942, the justices unanimously ruled against the farmer. The government claimed that if Mr. Filburn grew wheat for his own use, he would not be buying it — and that affected interstate commerce. It also argued that if the price of wheat rose, which is what the government wanted, Mr. Filburn might be tempted to sell his surplus wheat in the interstate market, thwarting the government’s objective. The Supreme Court bought it.
The Court’s opinion must be quoted to be believed:
[The wheat] supplies a need of the man who grew it which would otherwise be reflected by purchases in the open market. Home-grown wheat in this sense competes with wheat in commerce.
As Epstein commented, “Could anyone say with a straight face that the consumption of home-grown wheat is ‘commerce among the several states?'” For good measure, the Court justified the obvious sacrifice of Mr. Filburn’s freedom and interests to the unnamed farmers being protected:
It is of the essence of regulation that it lays a restraining hand on the self-interest of the regulated and that advantages from the regulation commonly fall to others.
After Wickard , everything is mere detail…..” http://www.fff.org/freedom/0895g.asp
I curse the day that man was born. The USA would have been much better off if FDR had never become a president. Even his son-in-law states he was a puppet for the international bankers.
“Franklin Delano ROOSEVELT My Exploited Father-in-Law excerpts from the book: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/New_World_Order/FDR_ExploitedFather-In-Law.html
If you are interested in the politics behind CAGW reading the above excerpts is a good place to start.
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 23, 2011 at 11:36 am
Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 11:09 am
Water is a transparent medium to visible light, it does not absorb it.
I have given you several pointers that show that Water is not transparent, but absorbs visible light, e.g. at 515 nm and at 606 nm. Basically, the energy goes into symmetric and asymmetric stretching of the hydrogen bonds. The absorption is weak [so water is almost transparent at visual wave lengths] but if the path length is long enough [hundreds of meters] the visible light will be absorbed and its energy transferred to the water molecules, heating the water.
I didn’t have time to reply to your first post on this earlier:http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/18/replicating-al-gores-climate-101-video-experiment-shows-that-his-high-school-physics-could-never-work-as-advertised/#comment-775546
Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:23 am
I am still waiting for proof of the claim that visible light creates heat when it is absorbed by earth and water
The absorption by water at the molecular level is very complicated.
No it isn’t complicated, water is a transparent medium for visible light, it is transmitted through without being absorbed.
A technical description can be found here:
From http://www.leif.org/EOS/Absorption-Water.pdf page 55:
“As in the case of discrete H2O molecules, these bands are due to vibrational-rotational harmonic and combination transitions from the ground state, specified earlier in Figure 2.3a, but they are wider and usually shifted in the direction of the longer wavelengths. Again, as in the case of such molecules, some of these broadened bands lie in the visible range of the spectrum, although there are more of them in the VIS range in the case of liquid water than of water vapor. These include two discernible, although quite weak bands at c. 606 nm and c. 515 nm (See Table 2.9, items 17 and 18). Notice also, that as in the case of the fundamental absorption bands, these harmonic and combination absorption bands of liquid water are generally more intense than those of water vapor.”
First of all, I asked you for a textbook from real world physics which showed exactly on a molecular level how visible light heats water as per your claim.
Again, you avoid this. You know exactly what I am asking you for, unless I have totally misjudged you and you’re in fact really really low iq with no ability to think straight let alone concentrate on this..
You then give me a page which you have compiled, I’m not even going to go there and I’m sure that are at least some reading here who won’t be surprised that I’m not interested in more of your avoidance techniques, from a study which I cannot access to see context, and which anyway is not what I asked you for.
Fetch what I have actually asked for. Or admit that no such real physical property of visible light exists in the real world that ‘water absorbs visible light and heats it’, only in the perverse garbled world of the AGWSF’s imagination as promoted by you here. Where internal coherence is chucked out for expediency in all attempts to fool the unwary.
You don’t care how illogical you are in your explanations, the more confusion you create the better, so you have to distract to avoid having to deal with the inconsistency created by your explanations.
How much does visible light heat the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen in our atmosphere? Go on, give us an answer since you claim absorption equals heating.
I can’t take you seriously as a ‘scientist’, but you know that already, I think you’ve just joined in here because you’re bored or something.. I am however extremely disappointed that I had to conclude this.
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Show on a molecular scale exactly how visible light heats water, give me real world textbook science and examples of real world application where visible light as from the Sun actually heats water
Again, I have already shown you that textbook and those applications.
No you haven’t. You showed me something from a study which I have no way of knowing what they are actually talking about, no context.
My request is perfectly clear. Surely you can tell the difference between a textbook and a book on a study?
That water is a transparent medium for visible light is bog standard real world physics basics.
It means that visible light is not able to get to play with the electrons of the molecules of water. It’s not complicated. A garbled passage with no context giving two points where this isn’t so, even if proved in context, is hardly the stuff to support the junk energy budget claims that all visible light heats water of the Earth and is the ‘thermal’ energy ‘because [the real heat from the Sun] direct thermal infrared has no part in heating the land and oceans’. [The claim is that shortwave energies heat land and oceans and no thermal infrared heats these, to make this clear if anyone’s unsure, I’m only dealing with visible light and water as a test case].
Here is an example of real world physics about visible light and water:
That’s from Georgia State University.
That is bog standard, well-known and understood, tried and tested real world physics. Water is a transparent medium for visible light, which means it is transmitted through without being absorbed.
You cannot show me a real textbook teaching your claim that water absorbs visible light and that means it heats it.
Because it doesn’t. You know that. I know that. Hopefully, those reading here who didn’t know that, also now know that.
AGWScience Fiction has corrupted general education in this, teaching the junk energy budget as if real physics. This is unconscionable. We, in the real world, can be grateful that there are still some departments in our universities teaching real physics about the world around us.
It continues:
I want you (generic) to explain in real textbook physics detail on a molecular level how visible light heats water and this demonstrated in real physics.
I gave you a reference already.
Anyone else want a go since Leif has failed to provide this?
Myrrh – I have followed your assertions with some interest. Your technique is similar to the child that asks ‘why?’ and then responds to each answer with ‘why?’. Another technique is that if someone provides contra evidence as requested, you repeat that visible light is not absorbed by water therefore they must be wrong (a circular argument).
What you have successfully illustrated is how in science, it is difficult to get anything completely settled. And indeed there is a level at which nothing can be.
But you have not demonstrated that visible light is not absorbed by sea water. Statements you cite that water is transparent to light do not explain in real textbook physics detail on a molecular level how visible light is not absorbed at all by sea water. I am no expert in this, but scientific and empirical evidence do seem to suggest otherwise. I suspect that the statements are correct at one level (sea water does not absorb much visible light), but incorrect at the next level (the absorption is not zero),
I really do think that your basic assertion “Water is a transparent medium to visible light, it does not absorb it” has to be incorrect in the context of the oceans. Otherwise, the ocean top and/or bottom would be brighter.
Now I am not authoritatively stating that you are absolutely wrong – science is full of surprises – but if you wanted to convince me of your case, you would have to produce very convincing concrete evidence, both theoretical and empirical, that sea water is 100% transparent to visible light.
Having said all that, the obvious rider is ‘so what?’. The dialogue has all taken place in the context of CAGW, and if the CAGW conjecture is basically correct then there are other possible mechanisms for heat being transferred from the atmosphere to the oceans. However, the tropical troposphere seems to indicate that the CAGW conjecture is incorrect, just to give one example, in which case this topic becomes irrelevant here.
It has been interesting, though..
“I gave you a reference already.”
“Anyone else want a go since Leif has failed to provide this?”
Well I did as well – real standard science text books, but you are not interesting in reading up on the subject. So it’s pointless.
However for the benefit of anyone else here is some more real science
http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jones/es151/gallery/images/absorp_water.html
which shows the absorbance of light of different wavelengths by liquid water. Note that at for visible light the absorbance coefficient is a million times smaller than for IR (and a billion times smaller than UV), but it is NEVER zero at any frequency. Down the right hand side of the graphs is the depth to which different wavelengths of light typically penetrate – this varies from only a few microns for parts of the IR, to a 100 meters or so in the visible.
This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MODIS_ATM_solar_irradiance.jpg shows what is absorbed by the atmosphere before it gets to sea level.
And I think that until Myrrh demonstrates that he is willing to read a textbook, then there is no point in going on.
Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:37 pm
You then give me a page which you have compiled, I’m not even going to go there
The page I referred you to is chapter 2 of the textbook Here it is:
http://www.amazon.com/Absorption-Absorbents-Atmospheric-Oceanographic-Sciences/dp/sitb-next/0387307532
I have extracted the chapter so you don’t have to pay $160 to read it.
I’ll try to explain what modern, real, standard physics has to say about this. A water molecule consists of an oxygen atom with two hydrogen atoms sitting on ‘hydrogen bonds’ [like little springs sticking out from the oxygen atom]. The two springs form an angle of some 105 degrees. There are three main modes of vibrations: mode 1, where the hydrogen atoms vibrate in and out in unison [‘symmetric vibration’]; mode 2 where the bonds bend back and forth, changing the angle;and mode 3 where the hydrogen atoms vibrate in opposite directions [when one goes in, the other goes out – called ‘asymmetric vibration’]. Because of the dense packing in liquid water, mode 2 does not happen [there is not enough room], so in liquid water only mode 1 and 3 occur. As with any vibration, there is a fundamental frequency [which is activated by far infrared], but here are also overtones [or harmonics – this is what makes a note, like ‘A’, sound differently on a violin and a trumpet]. The overtones that combine mode 1 and 3 [combined to 6th and 5th harmonics] correspond to the visual frequencies of light of 511 nm [green] and 606 nm [yellow], so visual light can and does excite vibrations. Overtones are normally of much less amplitude [strength] than the fundamental vibrations, so the visual light absorption is up to million times smaller than that of far IR. That infrared is absorbed [and thus heats] in the first few millimeters of the water column, while it takes 100 meters or more of water to absorb [and be heated by] visual light. But the ocean is deep enough for that, so even visual light gets absorbed [otherwise the ocean floor would be bathed in light – which it is not] and thus heats the oceans.
Now, in science we deal with effective explanations, that is: we only need to go to details that have effect at the level we are discussing. For absorption by water it is enough to note that visual light eventually gets absorbed and thus heats the oceans. It is not necessary [and usually a distraction] to go to the deeper level of molecular vibrations or [even deeper] quantum mechanics in order to understand what goes on. But now you know [if you read the above] at the molecular level what happens.
Myrrh,
Type the search term
“light absorption by water molecules and inorganic substances in sea water”
into Google.
Find the link corresponding to Chapter 2 of Wozniak and Dera.
Read Chapter 2 in its entirety.
Don’t come back till you have.
Mike Jonas says:
October 23, 2011 at 7:29 pm
Now I am not authoritatively stating that you are absolutely wrong – science is full of surprises
This is not one of them. The absorption of visible light is well-understood. See my post upthread at October 23, 2011 at 7:00 pm
“”””” Infrared light lies between the visible and microwave portions of the electromagnetic spectrum. Infrared light has a range of wavelengths, just like visible light has wavelengths that range from red light to violet. “Near infrared” light is closest in wavelength to visible light and “far infrared” is closer to the microwave region of the electromagnetic spectrum. The longer, far infrared wavelengths are about the size of a pin head and the shorter, near infrared ones are the size of cells, or are microscopic “””””
Well my heart felt sympathies go out to Leif, and the others who waged a stirling effort to try an teach some 4-H club level science, to Myrrh. Some children are just incapable of learning; and it is a waste of time trying to teach them, since there are agreat many kids who are just eager to learn, and much more deserving of one’s efforts; Myrrh simply isn’t worth trying to teach.
So the above quoted citation is from Myrrh’s too often repeated NASA kids teaching article about the EM spectrum.
I draw your attentions to the very first sentence; I only included, the rest to enable quick comparison to the link Myrrh gives.
So: “”””” Infrared light lies between the visible and microwave portions of the electromagnetic spectrum. “””””
This direct quote from Myrrh’s “Traditional Physics Bible” is sheer balderdash; absolute rubbish; nothing but total nonsense.
You see, “LIGHT” BY DEFINITION is VISIBLE.
LIGHT is entirely a creation of the human eye, It is the human eye’s response to EM radiation generally in the range of 400 to 800 nm wavelength; but in stsudies has been shown to extend as far as 1100 nm.
As a consequence, LIGHT is measured in its own set of units, which have NO PHYSICAL MEANING in the absence of the human eye. That is the PHOTOMETRIC SYSTEM OF UNITS based on the LUMEN, CANDELA, and other well known units of photometry. Theseunits are quite separate and differnt from the RADIOMETRIC units used for ALL FORMS of EM radiation, including the range of EM wavelenghts the human eye interprets as “LIGHT ”
So Myrr’s NASA staement is total BS; there is NO SUCH THING as INFRARED LIGHT beyond the range of VISIBLE LIGHT.
LIGHT by definition IS VISIBLE; SO THERE IS NO LIGHT BEYOND THE VISIBLE RANGE.
But as I said there are other children worth teaching; Myrrh is not.
Leif – thanks, I did. I think it covers everything.
Jimmy says:
Henry, you can have microwave lasers , infrared lasers, visible lasers, ultraviolet lasers, but they are all essentially monochromatic i.e one wavelength. A laser is what-you-see-is-what-get.
henry@Jimmy
Yes, agreed. You do. But the ones that cut through iron you cannot see so they add a visible
beam?
“3) it does not pass through either wholly or partially and is deflected (back radiated) at a higher wavelength: case in point X-rays during body search that shows us the bones and metal in the visible range.”
Jimmy says
No, no – the visible image is produced by the detector, the X rays do not wavelength, they change amplitude i.e some are absorbed. And visible has a much greater wavelength than Xrays (you are confusing wavelength with frequency)
Henry says
Jimmy, they need Xrays to see your fractures. Whatever method they use to see that, the fact remains that the X ray goes through the fracture in your bone (if you have one) and has difficulty going through metals?
henry says
“2) it does not pass through either wholly or partially and is deflected (back radiated) at the same wavelengths ( where we find absorption in the spectrum): case in point:visible light through water, or water vapor. (remember when you need sunglasses most is when humidity is high)”
Jimmy says
No, no again – water does not re-radiate in the visible – does it start glowing when you shine a light on it ? (I am not talking about refections from the surface)
Henry says
It does actually start glowing when light falls on it. Water and water vapor do reradiate in the visible. In fact they can measure it as it reflects from the moon again. Go to my reference given in the footnote here,
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011
follow the blue line (FIG 6 BOTTOM) and find all the absorptions of water between 0.6 and 1.2 um.It all comes back to earth fig 6 top.So the direction was sun-earth-moon-earth.
This is the reason why you need sun glasses when humidity is high and you drive even with the sunlight coming from the back: the water vapor re-radiates in the visible area…. ca. 60% is back radiated in the direction where it came from, ca. 40% goes the other way. Do you know why?
“1) it passes through the substance, case in point: IR light through N2/O2″
This is the only one of your statements that is nearly correct – and even this is not quite true, as N2 and O2 have very weak absorption due to collision induced effects (when two N2 molecules bump into each other the result is not symmetric and can absorb IR)
Henry@Jimmy
It is good that we agree on something.
.
What don’t you all understand, or are deliberately ignoring, that my request is for the basic mechanism by which your claim that visible light heats water is fully explained on a molecular level, is shown possible.
Re-read that.
The material you present you don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of understanding because you have not the faintest idea of the BASIC PHYSICS involved in what the words mean. Water is a transparent medium for visible light, that means in real basic physics, in the real world, that water does not absorb visible light, not by its electrons not by its atoms and molecules as a whole. In fact, what you claim for visible light in the atmosphere in the ‘junk greenhouse’ claim that ‘the atmosphere is transparent to visible light’, which is false, because the electrons of the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen do absorb visible light, that’s why visible light is scattered all over the sky. According to you therefore, visible light is heating the atmosphere, and yet there’s no mention of this in the junk energy budget. You’re not dealing with this.
You’re trying to run before you can walk.
You can’t get to grown up stuff like oceans until you understand the basic methods, the basic processess, the difference between electronic transitions and rotational/vibrational, the difference between the different effects produced by electronic transitions, such as to illuminate the world around us and through photsynthesis feed plant life and give us our oxygen. You don’t realise how much these childish AGWSF memes have confused you utterly, because they take out all the differences in properties and processes, here, by the meme ‘all electromagnetic energy is the same’ and ‘all electromagnetic energy absorbed equals heat’, and then they feed you with complex maths physics laws which make you feel oh so very clever because you can do the maths, and you can’t see that your conclusions from it are utterly stupid. So you spread the erroneous idea that visible light creates heat, that this is the heat you feel from the Sun and from incandescent lights! And you really can’t see how stupid that is because you’ve completely lost the plot to what physics is, the exploration of the real world in the differences in properties and processes from which exploration we already know that the heat we feel from the Sun and from fires in the invisible thermal infrared and from which we already know that visible light isn’t this, therefore can’t warm us up, even when you’re told that the physical fact that around 95% of an incandescent light bulb’s output is heat, you still think that this doesn’t reach us from the Sun, that it isn’t this which is heating the land and oceans and us, even though we can feel it here.. You have no sense of scale, no understanding that ‘highly energetic of shortwaves’ means tinier, no grasp this is the reason they can only affect matter on an electron scale, because they’re not big enough or powerful enough to move whole molecules into vibrational states which is necessary for water to get hotter, for matter to get hotter. You go with the fiction meme that ‘highly energetic means very powerful’. Yeah right, so powerful that electrons bounce it all over the sky. Visible light bounces off matter, travels through water without even this interaction happening and more, isn’t powerful enough to move a whole molecule into sustained vibrations which has to happen for matter to get hotter. You don’t realise how silly your claims that visible light heats water is not only because you’ve no grasp of scale, but because you’re lacking in the adult skills necessary to differentiate the different meanings of words according to context. You’re stuck in AGWSF one dimensional fantasy world where the meme ‘absorbed’ means ‘heat is created’, so lacking the necessary adult skills to differentiate between the meanings of the word you extrapolate from ‘visible light is absorbed by oceans and blue light travels further’ to think that this means visible heats water, and blue light heats water further down! That’s what these memes programme you to think. How can you think yourselves scientists when you show you’re not even able to understand what is being described? The whole junk energy budget is built on the premise meme that shortwave from the Sun is the mechanism by which all of Earth’s land and oceans are heated up, when in real life, in real physics, shortwave isn’t capable of doing this. Moreover, you believe the AGWSF meme that thermal infrared direct from the Sun plays no part in heating the Earth’s land and oceans even though in the real world physics this is known to be the real heat energy we receive on Earth direct from the Sun, the invisible thermal infrared we feel as heat. Because you don’t know the basics, because you don’t know how to understand words in context, you can’t tell when you’re being taken for a ride by people who do know the differences, who cleverly manipulate you by using ‘sunlight’ when ‘Sun’ should be used. You can’t see this. You can’t see how those manipulating your confusion with the meanings of words are having a great laugh at your expense, because you can’t see how silly you look when in all your great scientific pontificating you defend their memes such as visible heats the oceans because water absorbs it, so you can’t see the lie meme that the atmosphere is transparent to it, and you sent into a spin when it’s pointed out that visible scattered by the electrons in the atmosphere is because the electrons absorb visible, so for you that has to mean visible heats the sky. I only point these out so you can better see that there is no internal consistency in the AGWSF memes.
Sorry, I have tried to be kind in explaining how the science basics have been corrupted, but you really need to wake up to the manipulation if you’re to have a real grasp of the world around you. If you care about science, which is the process of discovery about the real world around us, you’re not doing yourselves any favours by thinking you know what you’re talking about. Of course this is difficult to get one’s head around, because you’ll have to conclude the highest most respected scientific institutions have been corrupted and have to come to see we’ve been subjected to this misinformation deliberately through the education system for the last couple of decades, in force. Non-specialist teachers of infant and primary school children brainwashed into accepting nonsense memes as if real science have passed this on and we now have a generation today of young adults interested in science who now can’t tell how silly the ideas that because oceans absorb visible light this means visible light heats the oceans, and, because these science fiction memes are now ubiquitous, even older scientists in different fields take such information to be real, because why shouldn’t they trust such basics from the science world? And most older scientists or those still being taught traditional physics anyway, as zac mentioned, don’t even realise that’s what is being said in the energy budget cartoon, most would naturally assume it meant thermal infrared heating the Earth, it’s not until you get into the reading the detail that you’d notice it is saying shortwave heating the Earth and thermal energy from the Sun ‘doesn’t even get to the surface’…
I’m going to quit this discussion now, maybe if there’s ever one directly addressing this point I’ll come back in to discuss it, but it really is time consuming having to reply to such strong defence of these fictional science memes, you’ll go through any contortions to keep them.
Go back to the basics, get a good grounding the differences between Heat and Light energies from the Sun. Get a real sense of scale and understanding of the differences in properties and processes, expand your horizons by learning the different effects of absorption, the differences between those which create heat and those which don’t. Take in what absorption on an electron scale can do, gives us light, colours, form, used in chemical changes of photosynthesis which gives us life. Get a grip on the basics. Water is a transparent medium for visible light, the atmosphere isn’t. This fact completely throws out the fictional science meme energy budget. Think about that.
Look at this carefully, take in what it is saying: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/watabs.html
Take in what is being described here, it isn’t possible for visible light from the Sun to interact with water to create heat, so from that you get a grasp of the differences between visible ‘absorbed’ by water and visible absorbed by electronic transitions from which we get to see colour and form in the world around us through light reflecting back into our eyes as pigments absorb some waves and reflect others, and from which we get chemical changes to sugars in plants and the creation of vitamin D through our skin, where ‘absorption’ of energy doesn’t equal ‘heat’.
Don’t be fooled by those who tell you this is too complicated, or that ‘everyone has a different understanding of heat’. Get a really good grip on the basic differences so you can more easily spot where people are deliberately adding to the confusion or unknowingly parrotting memes out of context. Remember, you are claiming that visible light and other shortwave energies directly heat land and oceans, and from this heating up of land and oceans a huge amount of thermal infrared, heat, is radiated back out, and the invisible real heat direct from the Sun, thermal infrared, plays no part in this. Unless you can prove and show on a molecular level how visible light heats water and the thermal energy of the Sun, which is heat which is the invisible thermal infrared reaching us by radiation, doesn’t play any part in heating land and oceans even though we can feel this heat for ourselves so we know it reaches us and land and oceans, then you are parroting science fiction memes which have no proven physical reality, until you can prove your claims you are pedalling unproven junk. It’s up to you to prove your junk ideas real, traditional physics already falsifies it because traditional physics knows and can describe the differences in properties and processes.
Myrrh “Look at this carefully, take in what it is saying: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/watabs.html“.
This is what it says: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/imgche/waterabsorb.gif
Clearly – very clearly – the absorption of visible light by water is not zero.
HenryP says:
October 23, 2011 at 11:00 pm
It does actually start glowing when light falls on it. Water and water vapor do reradiate in the visible. In fact they can measure it as it reflects from the moon again. Go to my reference given in the footnote here
I think you are confused. Visible light is reflected from water droplets in fog and clouds. These don’t ‘glow’. The reference you give shows how H2O is absorbed [see Figure 7].
Myrrh says:
October 24, 2011 at 5:56 am
The whole junk energy budget is built on the premise meme that shortwave from the Sun is the mechanism by which all of Earth’s land and oceans are heated up, when in real life, in real physics, shortwave isn’t capable of doing this. Moreover, you believe the AGWSF meme that thermal infrared direct from the Sun plays no part in heating the Earth’s land and oceans
This shows your misconception. Both visible light and infrared and even UV heat anything that absorb them. Half of the heating due to the sun is from infrared, the other half is from all the rest. I have shown you the precise process on the molecular level.
I’m going to quit this discussion now
Good, although it is a pity you have not taken the opportunity to learn something.
Leif: “What Herschel found was that all thermometers showed an increase, including the ones only subjected to visible light.”>>>
Myrrh: ? Yeah, so? We know that visible light isn’t capable of doing this.>>>
And there, in a nutshell is the crux of the problem. Presented with the very proof he has asked for, Myrrh responds that the proof is impossible. In an argument where all evidence can be eliminated by Myrrh shouting “that’s impossible!” I find scant reason to continue attempting to educate him because he has, by his own words, made that “impossible”.
I also find Myrrh’s condescending remarks about Leif Svalgaard’s IQ and understanding of physics, that of the emission spectrum of the Sun in particular, somewhat amusing. I would expect that Leif might be rather insulted, though he hasn’t said so.
Perhaps Leif might share with Myrrh what his day job is?
Myrrh says
Water is a transparent medium for visible light,
Henry@Myrrh& leif
Water & water vapor is in fact not transparent to visible light. I have already shown that to Jimmy.
There is some absorption in the visible region, leading to re-radiation.
This is also the reason that you will quickly grap for your sun glasses when humidity is high, because even with the sun shining for you from your back and driving in your car, you can feel that the light from the sun is re-radiated by the water vapor in the atmosphere.
I have explained it in a way that ordinary people can understand it, here,
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011
I will be glad to hear your comments on that piece if there is anything in it that you don’t agree with.
davidmhoffer says:
October 24, 2011 at 8:31 am
I would expect that Leif might be rather insulted, though he hasn’t said so.
Posting here requires a thick skin 🙂
Perhaps Leif might share with Myrrh what his day job is?
No need to appeal to authority, but perhaps this would be helpful:
http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=qFdb2fIAAAAJ&pagesize=100&view_op=list_works
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 24, 2011 at 8:59 am
No need to appeal to authority, but perhaps this would be helpful:
http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=qFdb2fIAAAAJ&pagesize=100&view_op=list_works
This may not work for you as it is a invitation only feature of google scholar. sorry.
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 24, 2011 at 9:30 am
This may not work for you as it is a invitation only feature of google scholar. sorry.
Had it worked, this would have been the first page shown: http://www.leif.org/research/Citations-h-index-etc.png
Leif,
I don’t think appeal to authority will sway Myrrh, he has, as I said, made it impossible for himself to learn anything from anyone on this topic.
But he should at least feel honoured that you responded to him at all, and maybe, just maybe, knowing who you are and what you do might sway him. Facts and logic have failed completely, what else is there? 😉