Replicating Al Gore's Climate 101 video experiment shows that his "high school physics" could never work as advertised

This will be a top “sticky” post for a day or two. New stories will appear below this one.

Readers may recall my previous essay where I pointed out how Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 Video, used in his “24 hours of climate reality”, had some serious credibility issues with editing things to make it appear as if they had actually performed the experiment, when they clearly did not. It has taken me awhile to replicate the experiment. Delays were a combination of acquisition and shipping problems, combined with my availability since I had to do this on nights and weekends. I worked initially using the original techniques and equipment, and I’ve replicated the Climate 101 experiment in other ways using improved equipment. I’ve compiled several videos. My report follows.

First. as a refresher, here’s the Climate 101 video again:

I direct your attention to the 1 minute mark, lasting through 1:30, where the experiment is presented.

And here’s my critique of it: Video analysis and scene replication suggests that Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project fabricated their Climate 101 video “Simple Experiment”

The most egregious faked presentation in that video was the scene with the split screen thermometers, edited to appear as if the temperature in the jar of elevated CO2 level was rising faster than the jar without elevated CO2 level.

It turns out that the thermometers were never in the jar recording the temperature rise presented in the split screen and the entire presentation was nothing but stagecraft and editing.

This was proven beyond a doubt by the photoshop differencing technique used to compare each side of the split screen. With the exception of the moving thermometer fluid, both sides were identical.

difference process run at full resolution - click to enlarge

Exposing this lie to the viewers didn’t set well with some people, include the supposed “fairness” watchdogs over at Media Matters, who called the analysis a “waste of time”. Of course it’s only a “waste of time” when you prove their man Gore was faking the whole thing, otherwise they wouldn’t care. Personally I consider it a badge of honor for them to take notice because they usually reserve such vitriol for high profile news they don’t like, so apparently I have “arrived”.

The reason why I took so much time then to show this chicanery was Mr. Gore’s pronouncement in an interview the day the video aired.

His specific claim was:

“The deniers claim that it’s some kind of hoax and that the global scientific community is lying to people,” he said. “It’s not a hoax, it’s high school physics.” – Al Gore in an interview with MNN 9/14/2011

So easy a high school kid can do it. Right?

Bill Nye, in his narration at 0:48 in the video says:

You can replicate this effect yourself in a simple lab experiment, here’s how.

…and at 1:10 in the video Nye says:

Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.

So, I decided to find out if that was true and if anyone could really replicate that claim, or if this was just more stagecraft chicanery. I was betting that nobody on Gore’s production team actually did this experiment, or if they did do it, it wasn’t successful, because otherwise, why would they have to fake the results in post production?

The split screen video at 1:17, a screencap of which is a few paragraphs above shows a temperature difference of 2°F. Since Mr. Gore provided no other data, I’ll use that as the standard to meet for a successful experiment.

The first task is to get all the exact same equipment. Again, since Mr. Gore doesn’t provide anything other than the video, finding all of that took some significant effort and time. There’s no bill of materials to work with so I had to rely on finding each item from the visuals. While I found the cookie jars and oral thermometers early on, finding the lamp fixtures, the heat lamps for them, the CO2 tank and the CO2 tank valve proved to be more elusive. Surprisingly, the valve turned out to be the hardest of all items to locate, taking about two weeks from the time I started searching to the time I had located it, ordered it and it arrived. The reason? It isn’t called a valve, but rather a “In-Line On/Off Air Adapter”. Finding the terminology was half the battle. Another surprise was finding that the heat lamps and fixtures were for lizards and terrariums and not some general purpose use. Fortunately the fixtures and lamps were sold together by the same company. While the fixtures supported up to 150 watts, Mr. Gore made no specification on bulb type or wattage, so I chose the middle of the road 100 watt bulbs from the 50, 100, and 150 watt choices available.

I believe that I have done due diligence (as much as possible given no instructions from Gore) and located all the original equipment to accurately replicate the experiment as it was presented. Here’s the bill of materials and links to suppliers needed to replicate Al Gore’s experiment as it is shown in the Climate 101 video:

====================================================

BILL OF MATERIALS

QTY 2 Anchor Hocking Cookie Jar with Lid

http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=187543

QTY2 Geratherm Oral Thermometer Non-Mercury http://www.pocketnurse.com/Geratherm-Oral-Thermometer-Non-Mercury/productinfo/06-74-5826/

QTY 2 Globe Coin Bank

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150661053386

QTY 2 Fluker`s Repta Clamp-Lamp with Ceramic Sockets for Terrariums (max 150 watts, 8 1/2 Inch Bulb) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluker-s-Repta-Clamp-Lamp-150-watts-8-1-2-Inch-Bulb-/200663082632

QTY2 Zoo Med Red Infrared Heat Lamp 100W

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200594870618

QTY1 Empire – Pure Energy – Aluminum Co2 Tank – 20 oz

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190563856367

QTY 1 RAP4 In-Line On/Off Air Adapter

http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/rap4-in-line-on-off-air-adapter

QTY 1 flexible clear plastic hose, 48″ in length, from local Lowes hardware to fit RAP4 In-Line On/Off Air Adapter above.

====================================================

Additionally, since Mr. Gore never actually proved that CO2 had been released from the CO2 paintball tank into one of the jars, I ordered a portable CO2 meter for just that purpose:

It has a CO2 metering accuracy of: ± 50ppm ±5% reading value. While not laboratory grade, it works well enough to prove the existence of elevated CO2 concentrations in one of the jars. It uses a non-dispersive infrared diffusion sensor (NDIR) which is self calibrating, which seems perfect for the job.

carbon dioxide temperature humidity monitorData Sheet

===================================================

Once I got all of the equipment in, the job was to do some testing to make sure it all worked. I also wanted to be sure the two oral thermometers were calibrated such they read identically. For that, I prepared a water bath to conduct that experiment.

CAVEAT: For those that value form over substance, yes these are not slick professionally edited videos like Mr. Gore presented. They aren’t intended to be. They ARE intended to be a complete, accurate, and most importantly unedited record of the experimental work I performed. Bear in mind that while Mr. Gore has million$ to hire professional studios and editors, all I have is a consumer grade video camera, my office and my wits. If I were still working in broadcast television, you can bet I would have done this in the TV studio.

==============================================================

STEP 1 Calibrate the Oral Thermometers

Here’s my first video showing how I calibrated the oral thermometers, which is very important if you want to have an accurate experimental result.

Note that the two thermometers read 98.1°F at the conclusion of the test, as shown in this screencap from my video @ about 5:35:

STEP 2 Calibrate the Infrared Thermometer

Since I plan to make use of an electronic Infrared thermometer in these experiments, I decided to calibrate it against the water bath also. Some folks may see this as unnecessary, since it is pre-calibrated, but I decided to do it anyway. It makes for interesting viewing

==============================================================

STEP 3 Demonstrate how glass blocks IR using  the Infrared Thermometer

The way an actual greenhouse works is by trapping infrared radiation. Glass is transparent to visible light, but not to infrared light, as we see below.

Image from: greenhousesonline.com.au
Mr. Gore was attempting to demonstrate this effect in his setup, but there’s an obvious problem: he used infrared heat lamps rather than visible light lamps. Thus, it seems highly likely that the glass jars would block the incoming infrared, and convert it to heat. That being the case, the infrared radiative backscattering effect that makes up the greenhouse effect in our atmosphere couldn’t possibly be demonstrated here in the Climate 101 video.

By itself, that would be enough to declare the experiment invalid, but not only will I show the problem of the experimental setup being flawed, I’ll go to full on replication.

Using the warm water bath and the infrared thermometer, it becomes easy to demonstrate this effect.

Since Mr. Gore’s experiment used infrared heat lamps illuminating two glass jars, I decided to test that as well:

==============================================================

STEP 4 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using the same equipment – duration of 10 minutes

At 1:10 in the Climate 101 video narrator Bill Nye the science guy says:

Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.

Since this is “simple high school physics” according to Mr. Gore, this should be a cinch to replicate. I took a “within minutes” from the narration to be just that, so I tried an experiment with 10 minutes of duration. I also explain the experimental setup and using the CO2 meter prove that CO2 is in fact injected into Jar “B”. My apologies for the rambling dialog, which wasn’t scripted, but explained as I went along. And, the camera work is one-handed while I’m speaking and setting up the experiment, so what it lacks in production quality it makes up in reality.

You’ll note that after 10 minutes, it appears there was no change in either thermometer. Also, remember these are ORAL thermometers, which hold the reading (so you can take it out of your mouth and hand it to mom and ask “can I stay home from school today”?). So for anyone concerned about the length of time after I turned off the lamps, don’t be. In order to reset the thermometers you have to shake them to force the liquid back down into the bulb.

Here’s the screencaps of the two thermometer readings from Jar A and B:

Clearly, 10 minutes isn’t enough time for the experiment to work. So let’s scratch off the idea from narration of “a few minutes” and go for a longer period:

RESULT: No change, no difference in temperature. Nothing near the 2°F rise shown in the video. Inconclusive.

==============================================================

STEP 5 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using the same equipment – duration of 30 minutes

Ok, identical setup as before, the only difference is time, the experiment runs 30 minutes long. I’ve added a digital timer you can watch as the experiment progresses.

And here are the screencaps from the video above of the results:

RESULT: slight rise and difference in temperature 97.4°F for Jar “A” Air, and 97.2°F for Jar “B” CO2. Nothing near the 2°F rise shown in the video.

==============================================================

STEP 6 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment, using digital logging thermometer – duration of 30 minutes

In this experiment, I’m substituting the liquid in glass oral thermometers with some small self contained battery powered digital logging thermometers with LCD displays.

This model:

Details here

Specification Sheet / Manual

USB-2-LCD+ Temperature Datalogger

I used two identical units in the experiment replication:

And here are the results graphed by the application that comes with the datalogger. Red is Temperature, Blue is Humidity, Green is dewpoint

The graphs are automatically different vertical scales and thus can be a bit confusing, so I’ve take the raw data for each and graphed temperature only:

After watching my own video, I was concerned that maybe I was getting a bit of a direct line of the visible portion of the heat lamp into the sensor housing onto the thermistor, since they were turned on their side. So I ran the experiment again with the dataloggers mounted vertically in paper cups to ensure the thermistors were shielded from any direct radiation at any wavelength. See this video:

Both runs of the USB datalogger are graphed together below:

RESULTS:

Run 1 slight rise and difference in temperature 43.5°C for Jar “A” Air with Brief pulse to 44°C , and 43.0°C for Jar “B” CO2.

Run 2 had an ended with a 1°C difference, with plain air in Jar A being warmer than Jar “B with CO2.

Jar “A” Air temperature led Jar “B” CO2 during the entire experiment on both runs

The datalogger output files are available here:

JarA Air only run1.txt  JarB CO2 run1.txt

JarA Air only run2.txt JarB CO2 run2.txt

==============================================================

STEP 7 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using a high resolution NIST calibrated digital logging thermometer – duration of 30 minutes

In this experiment I use a high resolution (0.1F resolution) and NIST calibrated data logger with calibrated probes. Data was collected over my LAN to special software. This is the datalogger model:

Data sheet: Model E Series And the software used to log data is described here

Here’s the experiment:

I had to spend a lot of time waiting for the Jar “B” probe to come to parity with Jar “A” due to the cooling effect of the CO2 I introduced. As we all know, when a gas expands it cools, and that’s exactly what happens to CO2 released under pressure. You can see the effect early in the flat area of the graph below.

Here’s the end result screencap real-time graphing software used in the experiment, click the image to expand the graph full size.

RESULTS:

Peak value Jar A with air  was at 18:04 117.3°F

Peak value Jar B with CO2 was at 18:04 116.7°F

Once again, air led CO2 through the entire experiment.

Note that I allowed this experiment to go through a cool down after I turned off the Infrared heat lamps, which is the slope after the peak. Interestingly, while Jar “A” (probe1 in green) with Air, led Jar “B” (Probe 2 in red) with CO2, the positions reversed shortly after the lamps turned off.

The CO2 filled jar was now losing heat slower than the plain air jar, even though plain air Jar “A” had warmed slightly faster than the CO2 Jar “B”.

Here’s the datalogger output files for each probe:

Climate101-replication-Probe01-(JarA – Air).csv

Climate101-replication-Probe02-(JarB – CO2).csv

Climate101-replication-Probe03-(Ambient Air).csv

What could explain this reversal after the lamps were turned off? The answer is here at the Engineer’s Edge in the form of this table:

Heat Transfer Table of Content

This chart gives the thermal conductivity of gases as a function of temperature.

Unless otherwise noted, the values refer to a pressure of 100 kPa (1 bar) or to the saturation vapor pressure if that is less than 100 kPa.

The notation P = 0 indicates the low pressure limiting value is given. In general, the P = 0 and P = 100 kPa values differ by less than 1%.

Units are milliwatts per meter kelvin.

Note the values for Air and for CO2 that I highlighted in the 300K column. 300K is 80.3°F.

Air is a better conductor of heat than CO2.

==============================================================

So, here is what I think is going on with Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 experiment.

  1. As we know, the Climate101 video used infrared heat lamps
  2. The glass cookie jars chosen don’t allow the full measure of infrared from the lamps to enter the center of the jar and affect the gas. I showed this two different ways with the infrared camera in videos above.
  3. During the experiments, I showed the glass jars heating up using the infrared camera. Clearly they were absorbing the infrared energy from the lamps.
  4. The gases inside the jars, air and pure CO2 thus had to be heated by secondary heat emission from the glass as it was being heated. They were not absorbing infrared from the lamps, but rather heat from contact with the glass.
  5. Per the engineering table, air is a better conductor of heat than pure CO2, so it warms faster, and when the lamps are turned off, it cools faster.
  6. The difference value of 2°F shown in the Climate 101 video split screen was never met in any of the experiments I performed.
  7. The condition stated in the Climate 101 video of “Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.” was not met in any of the experiments I performed. In fact it was exactly the opposite. Air consistently warmed faster than CO2.
  8. Thus, the experiment as designed by Mr. Gore does not show the greenhouse effect as we know it in our atmosphere, it does show how heat transfer works and differences in heat transfer rates with different substances, but nothing else.

Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 experiment is falsified, and could not work given the equipment he specified. If they actually tried to perform the experiment themselves, perhaps this is why they had to resort to stagecraft in the studio to fake the temperature rise on the split screen thermometers.

The experiment as presented by Al Gore and Bill Nye “the science guy” is a failure, and not representative of the greenhouse effect related to CO2 in our atmosphere. The video as presented, is not only faked in post production, the premise is also false and could never work with the equipment they demonstrated. Even with superior measurement equipment it doesn’t work, but more importantly, it couldn’t work as advertised.

The design failure was the glass cookie jar combined with infrared heat lamps.

Gore FAIL.

=============================================================

UPDATE: 4PM PST Some commenters are taking away far more than intended from this essay. Therefore I am repeating this caveat I posted in my first essay where I concentrated on the video editing and stagecraft issues:

I should make it clear that I’m not doubting that CO2 has a positive radiative heating effect in our atmosphere, due to LWIR re-radiation, that is well established by science. What I am saying is that Mr. Gore’s Climate Reality Project did a poor job of demonstrating an experiment, so poor in fact that they had to fabricate portions of the presentation, and that the experiment itself (if they actually did it, we can’t tell) would show a completely different physical mechanism than what actually occurs in our atmosphere.

No broader take away (other than the experiment was faked and fails) was intended, expressed or implied – Anthony

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October 22, 2011 4:45 pm

Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:33 pm
SHOW me proof that Visible light heats water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared#Astronomy_division_scheme:
“Infrared radiation is popularly known as “heat radiation”, but light and electromagnetic waves of any frequency will heat surfaces that absorb them. Infrared light from the Sun only accounts for 49%[12] of the heating of the Earth, with the rest being caused by visible light that is absorbed then re-radiated at longer wavelengths. ”
[12]: http://www.azsolarcenter.com/design/documents/passive.DOC
Here is how a solar cooker works [applied science] http://solarcooking.org/sbcdes.htm
Visible light easily passes through the glass and is absorbed and reflected by materials within the enclosed space.” Any time something is absorbed by a material, the material is heated [as the energy cannot just disappear]
More applied science: http://www.pasolar.ncat.org/lesson03.php
“Visible light (insolation) is the main energy source collected by systems that provide space heat, water heat, and electricity for homes.”
I think you were put down enough on this old thread, but apparently it was quite futile: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/15/radiating-the-ocean/

Smoking Frog
October 23, 2011 3:15 am

Leif Svalgaard October 22, 2011 at 11:36 am

Smoking Frog says:
October 22, 2011 at 8:13 am
Leif – It’s too bad somebody can’t think up a very simple proof – some easily arranged experiment or common phenomenon – no theory required.
Simple theory works well here. Of the 1360 W/m2 hitting the Earth, 600 W/m2 is in the infrared [above 800 nm]. If we assume that only that heats the Earth, then we can calculate what temperature the Earth would have. It goes like this: The temperature without Greenhouse Effect is [S*(1-A)/4/5.671E-8]^(1/4) which for S=1360 and Albedo A=0.3 comes to 255K. The observed temperature is 288K, so the difference 33K is due to GHG [mostly H2O and CO2]. With Myrrh’s wrong physics [S=600] one gets 207K, for a Greenhouse Effect of 81K, so Myrrh becomes a very strong proponent of excessive Greenhouse effects.

Yes, but that’s not as simple as what I was looking for. I’d like something so simple that Myrrh would be stymied by its obviousness and would be seen as being stymied by its obviousness, as opposed to being seen as not understanding.

October 23, 2011 3:30 am

Henry@Leif
Leif,
this is from your quote:
with the rest being caused by visible light that is absorbed then re-radiated at longer wavelengths
henry@Leif
The question was how UV or visible light heats the water. I doubt also that uv or visible light heats water, as it is not consistent with the observations.I think it is simply re-radiated. I have left many times (forgot) the cuvet with my watery samples in the spectrophotometer with my wavelength set at a specific wavelength (in the UV or in the visible range) and the machine on, and when I came back nothing in the sample had boiled over or evaporated. I have to conclude from this that it (the beam with light of that wavelength) is simply re-radiated. Maybe some of that is re-radiated at longer wavelengths, *heat?)but even that can only happen up to a certain saturation point – remember that the substance is finite whereas the light source is not finite.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011
If your argument is that this absorption (and subsequent conversion to heat) only happens at great depth, how would you prove that? What happens with the light before you reach the 100 meters?

Myrrh
October 23, 2011 4:23 am

Chuck Wiese says:
October 22, 2011 at 4:41 pm
Your claims are baseless in light of experimental evidence and established radiation laws.
More irrelevant gobblegook avoiding my point.
I am giving you established physical processes of how visible light doesn’t get absorbed by water molecules, is not powerful enough to move the molecules into vibrational states which is what heats water, isn’t even powerful enough to get in to play with the electrons of the molecules of water as visible is able to do with the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen in our atmosphere.
I have asked for proof that visible light heats water, how exactly it does this as per the claim in the junk energy energy budget, because physically it cannot and does not. You cannot provide the actual information I’m asking for because it doesn’t exist. I’m expecting a detailed description from you of the actual physical process. Why aren’t you providing it?
Are you having problems with the meanings of ‘properties and processes’?
……………
……………
Leif – why don’t for once answer my the question I have actually asked? I am still waiting for proof of the claim that visible light creates heat when it is absorbed by earth and water which is the claim of the junk energy budget. I have asked you to provide specific real world details from real world physics with real world examples to prove this claim, you as usual do not and as usual come back with links to more of the same crap information without any proof about which I’m complaining doesn’t exist to deflect from your inability to answer my direct requirements and, as usual, deflecting from your ignorance of method and inability to give me a straight answer by yet more ad homs. You’re, and I do not say this lightly but after considerable experience of this typical behaviour from you in previous discussions on the science, not fit for purpose for all your claims to being a scientist. For example:
http://www.azsolarcenter.org/images/docs/passive/passive.doc
“Sunlight, in the form of short wave solar radiation, exhibits a transformation from solar energy to heat energy when impacting a material (absorption).”
Not true. Photosynthesis is not transformation to heat, it is chemical energy conversion to sugars, not thermal conversion to heat. Solar short wave cannot move molecules into vibrational states which is the physical requirement for heating matter.
Your link to solar cooking repeats the same nonsense that light heats matter, no it can’t, it’s the thermal infrared heat energy from the Sun which cooks the dinner. Your link to collecting solar power – again with the science fiction bull, as I gave the difference earlier – visible light is not able to heat water through panel collection, this is collecting thermal infrared, photo-voltaic cells are able to convert the puny visible into electricity which can then heat water. That’s the real difference. Pages such as you’ve given are garbled nonsense, the same garbled science you give. No more links except as source reference. You explain to us here exactly how shortwave Visible light heats water on a molecular/atomic/electron basis, the “matter” in the quote, which you say happens because water absorbs visible light.
Until you, and the others here pushing this junk, do that exactly as I’ve requested, then your claims for the energy budget are based on nothing but your imaginations creating impossible worlds, science fiction. Some may be convinced that your garbled avoidance has scientific merit, but I can see through the bull.
And as for your link to that discussion, it’s a picture of thermal longwave radiation heating the earth and oceans… 🙂 For any interested in the actual discussion,
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/15/radiating-the-ocean/
I requested actual real world applied science textbooks confirming your claim. These pages do not constitute text books. Fetch the real physics explanations from real physics text books in the real world actually teaching how visible light heats water on a molecular scale or admit you can’t because none such exists.
I have given real physical explanations on an electon/atom/molecule level of why visible light from the Sun cannot do this, cannot heat matter.
You cannot prove this real world physics on the properties and processes of visible light wrong. All you can do is continue bluffing.
Additionally, your generic claim in the junk energy budget is that air is a transparent medium for shortwave from the Sun, this is not true. The electrons of the molecules of nitrogen and oxygen absorb visible light before reflecting it back out, therefore it is not transparent. So, how much does this heat the atmosphere? Why isn’t the figure for this in the junk energy budget claim?

Myrrh
October 23, 2011 4:36 am

zac says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:55 pm
Yes I have tried bouncing the near IR around and it will reflect off the walls and control the TV.That is why I placed a towel over everything to eliminate this. Have you read my post and what I found?
Sorry, I don’t know how I missed associating that with your previous post. It’s likely that your mention of it in your post is what later triggered my memory of my experience, perhaps my mind giving me a nudge because I didn’t reply to your question there..
That bright dot in the middle of the card must be an area of boh visible light and invisible near IR that has fallen on the surface of the lens . Wrong time of the year where I am but what causes the card to scorch, intense IR + intense visible light or just intense IR?
I would think intense IR. Think of a piece of paper put close to an open fire but not touching the source, it will be affected by the thermal ir just as a pot suspended over the fire is affected and heated up. I’ve just lit a candle and held a piece of paper near it.. I’m not sure to what extent even a coherent source of visible could have that effect as in a laser, how intense it would need to be, but the processes of how the various wavelengths affect matter are different and from what I’ve read so far, I think even visible intensified required some input from ir to have a ‘burning’ effect, lasers damage eyes from a photochemical action, not from a thermal. Even intense UV outdoors for example, can be stopped by a shirt. How is that intensified through a magnifying glass? I think, roughly, of artificial intensity much as the difference between a hand drill and an electric when it comes to lasers cutting through metal.., but intensification is still limited to the properties a wave has. How ‘intense’ can an x-ray be made to travel through bone? Can it ever? Anyway, this page on lasers for dummies says:

http://www.wickedlasers.com/laser-tech/dummies.html
“In general, laser radiation is not in itself harmful, and behaves much like ordinary light in its interaction with the body.”
Since that is benign, it is reflective rather than absorptive, or we’d cast no shadows.., I should think its magnification through a glass plays no part in heating the paper any more than it does without magnification, it is brightness which is being intensified, not thermal energy. Perhaps all one gets is a clearer view of the paper burning..

Myrrh
October 23, 2011 4:41 am

Smoking Frog says:
October 23, 2011 at 3:15 am
Leif Svalgaard October 22, 2011 at 11:36 am
Smoking Frog says:
October 22, 2011 at 8:13 am
Yes, but that’s not as simple as what I was looking for. I’d like something so simple that Myrrh would be stymied by its obviousness and would be seen as being stymied by its obviousness, as opposed to being seen as not understanding.
Keep looking. I’m looking for proof that visible light is capable of heating water, real world science text book proof and explanation of how this happens on a molecular level.

zac
October 23, 2011 5:27 am

Myrrh.
The candle experiment is quite interesting. I can approach the side of the flame with a peice of paper and get quite close before it scorches and eventualy bursts into , I assume that is heat transmission by Far IR. When I go from directly above I can’t get very close at all before the paper bursts into flames and I will assume that is heat transmission by Far IR and convection of the air in the room. The same goes for my hand, I can get very close to the side of the flame before it becomes uncomfortable although I can sense the heat from a couple of inches away but from above the flame, six inches above it iis about the limit I can tolerate.
So it would seem to me that the convection of air in the room transmits much more heat away from the flame than far IR alone.

jimmi_the_dalek
October 23, 2011 5:37 am

You have been told how it happens at a molecular level Myrrh, you just cannot be bothered looking it up. Do you have access to proper text books? For example “Physical Chemistry:A Molecular Approach” by McQuarrie and Simon (particularly chapter 13), or “Fundamentals of Molecular Spectroscopy”, by Banwell, or “Physical Chemistry” by Atkins?
You cannot in a molecule have an electronic transition without a simultaneous vibrational one.

October 23, 2011 7:05 am

Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:23 am
I am still waiting for proof of the claim that visible light creates heat when it is absorbed by earth and water
If light is absorbed it means that the energy in the light is transferred to the absorbing material. This heats the material. As simple as that.

zac
October 23, 2011 7:46 am

Quite often when light is absorbed it produces a chemical reaction. Museums and art galleries go to great lengths as to what light their exhibits are exposed to, red cars become pink, photographs fade, the sense of sight depends on a photo chemical reaction, photosynthesis is the ultimate solar power but none of these produce heat.

beng
October 23, 2011 8:02 am

****
Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:23 am
I am still waiting for proof of the claim that visible light creates heat when it is absorbed by earth and water
****
Uh…..what exactly do you think industrial metal-cutting lasers are doing? Hint: a laser emits coherent visible light, not IR.

October 23, 2011 8:26 am

Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:23 am
I am still waiting for proof of the claim that visible light creates heat when it is absorbed by earth and water
The absorption by water at the molecular level is very complicated. A technical description can be found here:
From http://www.leif.org/EOS/Absorption-Water.pdf page 55:
“As in the case of discrete H2O molecules, these bands are due to vibrational-rotational harmonic and combination transitions from the ground state, specified earlier in Figure 2.3a, but they are wider and usually shifted in the direction of the longer wavelengths. Again, as in the case of such molecules, some of these broadened bands lie in the visible range of the spectrum, although there are more of them in the VIS range in the case of liquid water than of water vapor. These include two discernible, although quite weak bands at c. 606 nm and c. 515 nm (See Table 2.9, items 17 and 18). Notice also, that as in the case of the fundamental absorption bands, these harmonic and combination absorption bands of liquid water are generally more intense than those of water vapor.”
Basically, the energy goes into symmetric and asymmetric stretching of the hydrogen bonds. The absorption is weak [so water is almost transparent at visual wave lengths] but if the path length is long enough [hundreds of meters] the visible light will be absorbed and its energy transferred to the water molecules, heating the water.

rbateman
October 23, 2011 8:56 am

Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:41 am
Go stand in front of a window, with your bowl of water, with the sun shining in.

October 23, 2011 8:57 am

Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:41 am
I’m looking for proof that visible light is capable of heating water, real world science text book proof and explanation of how this happens on a molecular level.
Here it is:
http://www.amazon.com/Absorption-Absorbents-Atmospheric-Oceanographic-Sciences/dp/sitb-next/0387307532
My post above is from this real world science text bvook.

G. Karst
October 23, 2011 8:59 am

This argument reminds me of a discussion I once foolishly became engaged in concerning gravity. A friend stated he was convinced (by something he read) that gravity was a push NOT a pull. The gravity we feel exerted on the surface of the earth was merely the delta G between the sun and the earth. ie The sun’s gravity pushes objects on to the surface of the earth and the earth’s gravity pushes objects away from the surface of the earth. The net force is the weight of objects. No matter how I tried, I was unable to completely falsify the premise.
Another example is the growing earth video of Neal Adams:
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ&w=420&h=315%5D
I think the reason, some of these are difficult to falsify, is that the science itself is still “fuzzy” or at least, my own understanding remains fuzzy. It may require, some of these type of conundrums, to humble ourselves, occasionally. Again, experimentation seems to be the only correct path. GK

Zac
October 23, 2011 9:37 am

An industrial CO2 cutting laser produces IR.

October 23, 2011 10:39 am

G. Karst says:
October 23, 2011 at 8:59 am
The sun’s gravity pushes objects on to the surface of the earth and the earth’s gravity pushes objects away from the surface of the earth. The net force is the weight of objects. No matter how I tried, I was unable to completely falsify the premise.
The tides raised by the Sun…

October 23, 2011 10:49 am

Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Visible does not move molecules into vibrational states which is what has to happen to matter to raise its temperature, to heat it up.
Yes it does. Visible light at 515 nm and at 606 nm [page 47 in the reference I gave you, item 17 and 18] have vibrational combination transitions (0,0,0) -> (a,0,b) where a+b=6 and 5, respectively.

Myrrh
October 23, 2011 11:09 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 23, 2011 at 7:05 am
Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:23 am
I am still waiting for proof of the claim that visible light creates heat when it is absorbed by earth and water
If light is absorbed it means that the energy in the light is transferred to the absorbing material. This heats the material. As simple as that.
Water is a transparent medium to visible light, it does not absorb it.
The atmosphere is not a transparent medium to visible light, the AGWSF energy budget claims it is, the electrons of nitrogen and oxygen absorb visible light, so, how hot does this make the sky? Why isn’t the figure in the energy budget?
beng says:
October 23, 2011 at 8:02 am
****
Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:23 am
I am still waiting for proof of the claim that visible light creates heat when it is absorbed by earth and water
****
Uh…..what exactly do you think industrial metal-cutting lasers are doing? Hint: a laser emits coherent visible light, not IR.
Show on a molecular scale exactly how visible light heats water, give me real worl textbook science and examples of real world application where visible light as from the Sun actually heats water, and not an artificially intensified source such as a laser, the Sun is not a laser. Unless you can prove using real physics that the AGWSF energy budget’s claim that visible light from the Sun heats land and oceans you should stop claiming it.
rbateman says:
October 23, 2011 at 8:56 am
Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 4:41 am
Go stand in front of a window, with your bowl of water, with the sun shining in.
? Since this argument is about whether or not visible light heats water, this experiment does nothing to prove it does.
Here’s one for you. Run a bath of cold water, take its temperature. Shine a visible light source onto it which does not contain thermal infrared. Perhaps HenryP October 23, 2011 at 3:30 am will be able to guide you into how to do this, let it run for a few hours, take temperature of water. Let us know the result.
I want you (generic) to explain in real physics detail on a molecular level how visible light heats water and this demonstrated in real physics.

zac
October 23, 2011 11:19 am

Have to say I had never ever questioned the accepted norm that visible sunlight warms the earth before. But it is now becoming more obvious to me that that can not be the full case.
We are supposed to consider the planet as a black body and what the temperature should be on the surface of that black body without an atmosphere, or so most climate scientists tell us. But the bleeding obvious is that Earth is not a black body and those first photographs from space showed just what a wonderful brilliant colourful planet it is. It is a living planet and not a dead black body.
Sunlight falling on the planet is gobbled up by plankton in the oceans and vegetation on land to produce chemical reactions. To state it is all turned into heat is just totally ridiculous.
Black body my A***.

October 23, 2011 11:36 am

Myrrh says:
October 23, 2011 at 11:09 am
Water is a transparent medium to visible light, it does not absorb it.
I have given you several pointers that show that Water is not transparent, but absorbs visible light, e.g. at 515 nm and at 606 nm.
Show on a molecular scale exactly how visible light heats water, give me real worl textbook science and examples of real world application where visible light as from the Sun actually heats water
Again, I have already shown you that textbook and those applications.
Here’s one for you. Run a bath of cold water, take its temperature. Shine a visible light source onto it which does not contain thermal infrared. Perhaps HenryP October 23, 2011 at 3:30 am will be able to guide you into how to do this, let it run for a few hours, take temperature of water. Let us know the result.
If that bath is 100 meters deep or more [as the oceans] you’ll find that its temperature increases just as in real world.
I want you (generic) to explain in real physics detail on a molecular level how visible light heats water and this demonstrated in real physics.
I gave you a reference already.

October 23, 2011 11:43 am

zac says:
October 23, 2011 at 11:19 am
It is a living planet and not a dead black body.
Black bodies are not necessarily black. The Sun is very nearly a black body. The operational definition of a black body is this: take a closed box. Heat the box to a high temperature. Make a very small hole in the wall and watch the radiation coming out of the hole. That hole is a black body.

October 23, 2011 11:45 am

zac says:
October 23, 2011 at 11:19 am
Black body my A***.
Your lowest orifice is a pretty good approximation to a black body with a temperature around 37 C.

zac
October 23, 2011 12:20 pm

Still have not sussed the quote stuff. But just to reply in a crude way, that imho ignoring the fact that planet (mearly typed plant) Earth is covered with living matter that feeds off visible light without generating heat is a massive mistake.

jimmi_the_dalek
October 23, 2011 12:37 pm

Strawmen all over the place.
Climate science does not treat the earth as a black body. (and as an aside “black bodies” are not black! they have a color which depends on their temperature)
The atmosphere does absorb some visible light (just not very much)
There is no substance (made of normal matter i.e. leave ‘dark matter’ out of it) anywhere in the universe which is 100% transparent – if it is made of protons and electrons it absorbs electromagnetic radiation. Sometimes the absorption is very weak and it requires a very long path length before it is all gone, but it is absorbed, at all wavelengths, always. And of course it is eventually re-emitted, at different wavelengths, because as well as all matter absorbing radiation, it also all emits radiation, provided it is at a temperature above absolute zero (which it is of course as it has just absorbed energy)
If it is absorbing light, at any wavelength, it is heating, because the conservation of energy requires it.
Myrrh, you have already been told how water absorbs visible light, several times. Have you actually looked in a text book? A real text book, not some internet page full of hand waving approximate ideas.

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