This will be a top “sticky” post for a day or two. New stories will appear below this one.
Readers may recall my previous essay where I pointed out how Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 Video, used in his “24 hours of climate reality”, had some serious credibility issues with editing things to make it appear as if they had actually performed the experiment, when they clearly did not. It has taken me awhile to replicate the experiment. Delays were a combination of acquisition and shipping problems, combined with my availability since I had to do this on nights and weekends. I worked initially using the original techniques and equipment, and I’ve replicated the Climate 101 experiment in other ways using improved equipment. I’ve compiled several videos. My report follows.
First. as a refresher, here’s the Climate 101 video again:
I direct your attention to the 1 minute mark, lasting through 1:30, where the experiment is presented.
And here’s my critique of it: Video analysis and scene replication suggests that Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project fabricated their Climate 101 video “Simple Experiment”
The most egregious faked presentation in that video was the scene with the split screen thermometers, edited to appear as if the temperature in the jar of elevated CO2 level was rising faster than the jar without elevated CO2 level.
It turns out that the thermometers were never in the jar recording the temperature rise presented in the split screen and the entire presentation was nothing but stagecraft and editing.
This was proven beyond a doubt by the photoshop differencing technique used to compare each side of the split screen. With the exception of the moving thermometer fluid, both sides were identical.

Exposing this lie to the viewers didn’t set well with some people, include the supposed “fairness” watchdogs over at Media Matters, who called the analysis a “waste of time”. Of course it’s only a “waste of time” when you prove their man Gore was faking the whole thing, otherwise they wouldn’t care. Personally I consider it a badge of honor for them to take notice because they usually reserve such vitriol for high profile news they don’t like, so apparently I have “arrived”.
The reason why I took so much time then to show this chicanery was Mr. Gore’s pronouncement in an interview the day the video aired.
His specific claim was:
“The deniers claim that it’s some kind of hoax and that the global scientific community is lying to people,” he said. “It’s not a hoax, it’s high school physics.” – Al Gore in an interview with MNN 9/14/2011
So easy a high school kid can do it. Right?
Bill Nye, in his narration at 0:48 in the video says:
You can replicate this effect yourself in a simple lab experiment, here’s how.
…and at 1:10 in the video Nye says:
Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.
So, I decided to find out if that was true and if anyone could really replicate that claim, or if this was just more stagecraft chicanery. I was betting that nobody on Gore’s production team actually did this experiment, or if they did do it, it wasn’t successful, because otherwise, why would they have to fake the results in post production?
The split screen video at 1:17, a screencap of which is a few paragraphs above shows a temperature difference of 2°F. Since Mr. Gore provided no other data, I’ll use that as the standard to meet for a successful experiment.
The first task is to get all the exact same equipment. Again, since Mr. Gore doesn’t provide anything other than the video, finding all of that took some significant effort and time. There’s no bill of materials to work with so I had to rely on finding each item from the visuals. While I found the cookie jars and oral thermometers early on, finding the lamp fixtures, the heat lamps for them, the CO2 tank and the CO2 tank valve proved to be more elusive. Surprisingly, the valve turned out to be the hardest of all items to locate, taking about two weeks from the time I started searching to the time I had located it, ordered it and it arrived. The reason? It isn’t called a valve, but rather a “In-Line On/Off Air Adapter”. Finding the terminology was half the battle. Another surprise was finding that the heat lamps and fixtures were for lizards and terrariums and not some general purpose use. Fortunately the fixtures and lamps were sold together by the same company. While the fixtures supported up to 150 watts, Mr. Gore made no specification on bulb type or wattage, so I chose the middle of the road 100 watt bulbs from the 50, 100, and 150 watt choices available.
I believe that I have done due diligence (as much as possible given no instructions from Gore) and located all the original equipment to accurately replicate the experiment as it was presented. Here’s the bill of materials and links to suppliers needed to replicate Al Gore’s experiment as it is shown in the Climate 101 video:
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BILL OF MATERIALS
QTY 2 Anchor Hocking Cookie Jar with Lid
http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=187543
QTY2 Geratherm Oral Thermometer Non-Mercury http://www.pocketnurse.com/Geratherm-Oral-Thermometer-Non-Mercury/productinfo/06-74-5826/
QTY 2 Globe Coin Bank
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150661053386
QTY 2 Fluker`s Repta Clamp-Lamp with Ceramic Sockets for Terrariums (max 150 watts, 8 1/2 Inch Bulb) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluker-s-Repta-Clamp-Lamp-150-watts-8-1-2-Inch-Bulb-/200663082632
QTY2 Zoo Med Red Infrared Heat Lamp 100W
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200594870618
QTY1 Empire – Pure Energy – Aluminum Co2 Tank – 20 oz
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190563856367
QTY 1 RAP4 In-Line On/Off Air Adapter
http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/rap4-in-line-on-off-air-adapter
QTY 1 flexible clear plastic hose, 48″ in length, from local Lowes hardware to fit RAP4 In-Line On/Off Air Adapter above.
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Additionally, since Mr. Gore never actually proved that CO2 had been released from the CO2 paintball tank into one of the jars, I ordered a portable CO2 meter for just that purpose:
It has a CO2 metering accuracy of: ± 50ppm ±5% reading value. While not laboratory grade, it works well enough to prove the existence of elevated CO2 concentrations in one of the jars. It uses a non-dispersive infrared diffusion sensor (NDIR) which is self calibrating, which seems perfect for the job.
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Once I got all of the equipment in, the job was to do some testing to make sure it all worked. I also wanted to be sure the two oral thermometers were calibrated such they read identically. For that, I prepared a water bath to conduct that experiment.
CAVEAT: For those that value form over substance, yes these are not slick professionally edited videos like Mr. Gore presented. They aren’t intended to be. They ARE intended to be a complete, accurate, and most importantly unedited record of the experimental work I performed. Bear in mind that while Mr. Gore has million$ to hire professional studios and editors, all I have is a consumer grade video camera, my office and my wits. If I were still working in broadcast television, you can bet I would have done this in the TV studio.
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STEP 1 Calibrate the Oral Thermometers
Here’s my first video showing how I calibrated the oral thermometers, which is very important if you want to have an accurate experimental result.
Note that the two thermometers read 98.1°F at the conclusion of the test, as shown in this screencap from my video @ about 5:35:
STEP 2 Calibrate the Infrared Thermometer
Since I plan to make use of an electronic Infrared thermometer in these experiments, I decided to calibrate it against the water bath also. Some folks may see this as unnecessary, since it is pre-calibrated, but I decided to do it anyway. It makes for interesting viewing
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STEP 3 Demonstrate how glass blocks IR using the Infrared Thermometer
The way an actual greenhouse works is by trapping infrared radiation. Glass is transparent to visible light, but not to infrared light, as we see below.
![greenhouseeffects[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/greenhouseeffects1.jpg?resize=400%2C459&quality=83)
By itself, that would be enough to declare the experiment invalid, but not only will I show the problem of the experimental setup being flawed, I’ll go to full on replication.
Using the warm water bath and the infrared thermometer, it becomes easy to demonstrate this effect.
Since Mr. Gore’s experiment used infrared heat lamps illuminating two glass jars, I decided to test that as well:
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STEP 4 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using the same equipment – duration of 10 minutes
At 1:10 in the Climate 101 video narrator Bill Nye the science guy says:
Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.
Since this is “simple high school physics” according to Mr. Gore, this should be a cinch to replicate. I took a “within minutes” from the narration to be just that, so I tried an experiment with 10 minutes of duration. I also explain the experimental setup and using the CO2 meter prove that CO2 is in fact injected into Jar “B”. My apologies for the rambling dialog, which wasn’t scripted, but explained as I went along. And, the camera work is one-handed while I’m speaking and setting up the experiment, so what it lacks in production quality it makes up in reality.
You’ll note that after 10 minutes, it appears there was no change in either thermometer. Also, remember these are ORAL thermometers, which hold the reading (so you can take it out of your mouth and hand it to mom and ask “can I stay home from school today”?). So for anyone concerned about the length of time after I turned off the lamps, don’t be. In order to reset the thermometers you have to shake them to force the liquid back down into the bulb.
Here’s the screencaps of the two thermometer readings from Jar A and B:
Clearly, 10 minutes isn’t enough time for the experiment to work. So let’s scratch off the idea from narration of “a few minutes” and go for a longer period:
RESULT: No change, no difference in temperature. Nothing near the 2°F rise shown in the video. Inconclusive.
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STEP 5 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using the same equipment – duration of 30 minutes
Ok, identical setup as before, the only difference is time, the experiment runs 30 minutes long. I’ve added a digital timer you can watch as the experiment progresses.
And here are the screencaps from the video above of the results:
RESULT: slight rise and difference in temperature 97.4°F for Jar “A” Air, and 97.2°F for Jar “B” CO2. Nothing near the 2°F rise shown in the video.
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STEP 6 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment, using digital logging thermometer – duration of 30 minutes
In this experiment, I’m substituting the liquid in glass oral thermometers with some small self contained battery powered digital logging thermometers with LCD displays.
This model:
Details here
Specification Sheet / Manual
USB-2-LCD+ Temperature Datalogger
I used two identical units in the experiment replication:
And here are the results graphed by the application that comes with the datalogger. Red is Temperature, Blue is Humidity, Green is dewpoint
The graphs are automatically different vertical scales and thus can be a bit confusing, so I’ve take the raw data for each and graphed temperature only:
After watching my own video, I was concerned that maybe I was getting a bit of a direct line of the visible portion of the heat lamp into the sensor housing onto the thermistor, since they were turned on their side. So I ran the experiment again with the dataloggers mounted vertically in paper cups to ensure the thermistors were shielded from any direct radiation at any wavelength. See this video:
Both runs of the USB datalogger are graphed together below:
RESULTS:
Run 1 slight rise and difference in temperature 43.5°C for Jar “A” Air with Brief pulse to 44°C , and 43.0°C for Jar “B” CO2.
Run 2 had an ended with a 1°C difference, with plain air in Jar A being warmer than Jar “B with CO2.
Jar “A” Air temperature led Jar “B” CO2 during the entire experiment on both runs
The datalogger output files are available here:
JarA Air only run1.txt JarB CO2 run1.txt
JarA Air only run2.txt JarB CO2 run2.txt
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STEP 7 Replicating Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment exactly, using a high resolution NIST calibrated digital logging thermometer – duration of 30 minutes
In this experiment I use a high resolution (0.1F resolution) and NIST calibrated data logger with calibrated probes. Data was collected over my LAN to special software. This is the datalogger model:
Data sheet: Model E Series And the software used to log data is described here
Here’s the experiment:
I had to spend a lot of time waiting for the Jar “B” probe to come to parity with Jar “A” due to the cooling effect of the CO2 I introduced. As we all know, when a gas expands it cools, and that’s exactly what happens to CO2 released under pressure. You can see the effect early in the flat area of the graph below.
Here’s the end result screencap real-time graphing software used in the experiment, click the image to expand the graph full size.
RESULTS:
Peak value Jar A with air was at 18:04 117.3°F
Peak value Jar B with CO2 was at 18:04 116.7°F
Once again, air led CO2 through the entire experiment.
Note that I allowed this experiment to go through a cool down after I turned off the Infrared heat lamps, which is the slope after the peak. Interestingly, while Jar “A” (probe1 in green) with Air, led Jar “B” (Probe 2 in red) with CO2, the positions reversed shortly after the lamps turned off.
The CO2 filled jar was now losing heat slower than the plain air jar, even though plain air Jar “A” had warmed slightly faster than the CO2 Jar “B”.
Here’s the datalogger output files for each probe:
Climate101-replication-Probe01-(JarA – Air).csv
Climate101-replication-Probe02-(JarB – CO2).csv
Climate101-replication-Probe03-(Ambient Air).csv
What could explain this reversal after the lamps were turned off? The answer is here at the Engineer’s Edge in the form of this table:
Heat Transfer Table of Content
This chart gives the thermal conductivity of gases as a function of temperature.
Unless otherwise noted, the values refer to a pressure of 100 kPa (1 bar) or to the saturation vapor pressure if that is less than 100 kPa.
The notation P = 0 indicates the low pressure limiting value is given. In general, the P = 0 and P = 100 kPa values differ by less than 1%.
Units are milliwatts per meter kelvin.
Note the values for Air and for CO2 that I highlighted in the 300K column. 300K is 80.3°F.
Air is a better conductor of heat than CO2.
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So, here is what I think is going on with Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 experiment.
- As we know, the Climate101 video used infrared heat lamps
- The glass cookie jars chosen don’t allow the full measure of infrared from the lamps to enter the center of the jar and affect the gas. I showed this two different ways with the infrared camera in videos above.
- During the experiments, I showed the glass jars heating up using the infrared camera. Clearly they were absorbing the infrared energy from the lamps.
- The gases inside the jars, air and pure CO2 thus had to be heated by secondary heat emission from the glass as it was being heated. They were not absorbing infrared from the lamps, but rather heat from contact with the glass.
- Per the engineering table, air is a better conductor of heat than pure CO2, so it warms faster, and when the lamps are turned off, it cools faster.
- The difference value of 2°F shown in the Climate 101 video split screen was never met in any of the experiments I performed.
- The condition stated in the Climate 101 video of “Within minutes you will see the temperature of the bottle with the carbon dioxide in it rising faster and higher.” was not met in any of the experiments I performed. In fact it was exactly the opposite. Air consistently warmed faster than CO2.
- Thus, the experiment as designed by Mr. Gore does not show the greenhouse effect as we know it in our atmosphere, it does show how heat transfer works and differences in heat transfer rates with different substances, but nothing else.
Mr. Gore’s Climate 101 experiment is falsified, and could not work given the equipment he specified. If they actually tried to perform the experiment themselves, perhaps this is why they had to resort to stagecraft in the studio to fake the temperature rise on the split screen thermometers.
The experiment as presented by Al Gore and Bill Nye “the science guy” is a failure, and not representative of the greenhouse effect related to CO2 in our atmosphere. The video as presented, is not only faked in post production, the premise is also false and could never work with the equipment they demonstrated. Even with superior measurement equipment it doesn’t work, but more importantly, it couldn’t work as advertised.
The design failure was the glass cookie jar combined with infrared heat lamps.
Gore FAIL.
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UPDATE: 4PM PST Some commenters are taking away far more than intended from this essay. Therefore I am repeating this caveat I posted in my first essay where I concentrated on the video editing and stagecraft issues:
I should make it clear that I’m not doubting that CO2 has a positive radiative heating effect in our atmosphere, due to LWIR re-radiation, that is well established by science. What I am saying is that Mr. Gore’s Climate Reality Project did a poor job of demonstrating an experiment, so poor in fact that they had to fabricate portions of the presentation, and that the experiment itself (if they actually did it, we can’t tell) would show a completely different physical mechanism than what actually occurs in our atmosphere.
No broader take away (other than the experiment was faked and fails) was intended, expressed or implied – Anthony















well, brilliant, but now you should change jars..
Myrrh I have to correct an earlier post I made a few days ago. At long last the Sun has come out and I can comfirm that I was totally wrong about a magnifying glass focusing the sunlight falling onto it onto a card not producing a shadow. It does produce a shadow and to my eyes the shadow is about the same intensity as the stand it is mounted on. So I’m pretty happy to conclude that most of the light falling on the glass from the sun is now being directed into one tiny bright spot and the shadow is formed on the card around it because no direct sunlight is now falling in that area.
Next, the Infrared remote control for the TV works perfectly OK when placed up to the magnifying glass and up to the max distance possible in this room. I also put a towel over the them to eliminate the possibily that the IR sigal was bouncing off the lens and then reflected back to the TV by the walls, so I am also pretty happy to conclude that near IR passes through glass with ease, so the statement that IR does not pass through glass is wrong unless it is qualified by specifying wavelengths .
That bright dot in the middle of the card must be an area of boh visible light and invisible near IR that has fallen on the surface of the lens . Wrong time of the year where I am but what causes the card to scorch, intense IR + intense visible light or just intense IR?
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:18 am
“Herschel discovered infrared and showed in the process that visible light heats”
Shrug, since visible light isn’t capable of moving molecules into vibrational states,
“What Herschel found was that all thermometers showed an increase, including the ones only subjected to visible light.”
? Yeah, so? We know that visible light isn’t capable of doing this.
In spite of what you think you know, the temperatures did all go up. BTW, infrared photons have less energy than those of visible light.
Leif – It’s too bad somebody can’t think up a very simple proof – some easily arranged experiment or common phenomenon – no theory required. I’ve been trying to think of something, but I come up blank.
Smoking Frog says:
October 22, 2011 at 8:13 am
iLeif – It’s too bad somebody can’t think up a very simple proof – some easily arranged experiment or common phenomenon – no theory required.
Herschel’s original experiment works fine.
Herschel discovered infrared and showed in the process that visible light heats:
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/classroom_activities/herschel_experiment.html
see also: http://home.znet.com/schester/calculations/herschel/index.html
@Leif Svalgaard…
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:18 am
“Herschel discovered infrared and showed in the process that visible light heats” Shrug, since visible light isn’t capable of moving molecules into vibrational states,
“What Herschel found was that all thermometers showed an increase, including the ones only subjected to visible light.”
? Yeah, so? We know that visible light isn’t capable of doing this.
In spite of what you think you know, the temperatures did all go up. BTW, infrared photons have less energy than those of visible light.
I agree with Dr. Leif Svalgaard; visible light is considered into thermal radiation spectrum, i.e. radiation that can be transferred like heat or work. When visible light is absorbed by a system, it can be transformed into static energy that causes increase of the system’s temperature.
Myrrh: If you are so convinced that visible light from the sun does not heat the earth, try taking a magnifying glass and focus the visible sunlight on it to a fine point onto a piece of paper. I’m sure you would agree that infrared radiation at any wavelength is opaque to glass, but the visible light will be transmitted through and can be concentrated by magnification on the other side.
I’ll guarantee you within about 30 seconds, the magnified and focused visible light striking the paper will heat it rapidly to its combustion temperature and ignite a fire on it or burn a hole through it if it is dry enough. If you focus the visible sunlight on your skin, you will feel an immediate burning sensation.
The color temperature of the sun is white .It is approximately 5300 K. Your eyes see in color beacuse the various objects and matter around you on the earth absorb specfic wavelengths of visible light and re-emit or reflect other wavelengths. The specific visible wavelengths that are absorbed and not re-emitted can and do cause electronic and vibrational transitions in atoms that cause a thermal reaction which is measured by change in temperature.
Smoking Frog says:
October 22, 2011 at 8:13 am
Leif – It’s too bad somebody can’t think up a very simple proof – some easily arranged experiment or common phenomenon – no theory required.
Simple theory works well here. Of the 1360 W/m2 hitting the Earth, 600 W/m2 is in the infrared [above 800 nm]. If we assume that only that heats the Earth, then we can calculate what temperature the Earth would have. It goes like this: The temperature without Greenhouse Effect is [S*(1-A)/4/5.671E-8]^(1/4) which for S=1360 and Albedo A=0.3 comes to 255K. The observed temperature is 288K, so the difference 33K is due to GHG [mostly H2O and CO2]. With Myrrh’s wrong physics [S=600] one gets 207K, for a Greenhouse Effect of 81K, so Myrrh becomes a very strong proponent of excessive Greenhouse effects.
zac says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:54 am
Myrrh
I am finding this a tough one to find a black and white statement that visible light creates heat when it is ansorbed by a body. Getting back to Herschel, other than the link given earlier all the other references I come across merely say he discovered IR by accident as his control thermometer placed below the red beam heated up.
Yes, not just tough, impossible. That’s why I keep asking for the information… 🙂 We’ve come a long way to understanding the physical world thanks to his lucky break! In painting such a moment is called a ‘happy accident’, when something you weren’t intending to do happens and it works, such as loading your brush with more paint than required for an effect and it turns out so much better than the effect you thought you wanted..
From Wiki Main interactions with matter by electromagnetic radiation.
Visible: Molecular electron excitation (including pigment molecules found in the human retina), plasma oscillations (in metals only).
Near infrared: Molecular vibration, plasma oscillation (in metals only).
Far Infrared: Plasma oscillation, molecular rotation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum etc.
Yes again, you’ll find tantalising bits to real physics, for example on that wiki page about near infrared “Physical processes that are relevant for this range are similar to those for visible light.” When you read about visible light there’s nothing in there about creating heat.. In other words, near infrared like visible is reflective rather than absorptive, and working on electronic transitional level rather than the bigger thermal, mid and longwave infrared; which they do give the processes by which these move the whole molecule to heat up, but don’t actually point out that’s what happens as a result: Mid – “Hot objects (black-body radiators) can radiate strongly in this range. It is absorbed by molecular vibrations, where the different atoms in a molecule vibrate around their equilibrium positions.” And Far – “This radiation is typically absorbed by so-called rotational modes in gas-phase molecules, by molecular motions in liquids, and by phonons in solids.”
You’ll also find AGW slants and counterslants by commission as well as omission, it goes on to say about Far – “The water in the Earth’s atmosphere absorbs so strongly in this range that it renders the atmosphere effectively opaque.” 🙂 Doesn’t reach Earth’s surface according to AGWSF.. But yeah, right, their usual sense of scale that c4%-6% (?) of the atmosphere water vapour is making the atmosphere so opaque to thermal because water is the great absorber of it that it doesn’t reach us, so, of course, can’t possibly have anything to do with directly heating the oceans and land – but note the stress on ‘water so strongly absorbs’ and contrast with visible light spiel which talks only of its use in giving our world colour and form. Sigh, it’s pig’s ear pretending to be a silk purse trying not to be a pig’s ear.
So that’s what you’ll find a lot of, real facts presented just off giving proper context, you have to do further research to find out what it means about visible light and electonic transitions impinging on electrons versus thermal, mid and longwave, moving molecules into vibrational/rotational states and kinetic energy before you realise that visible light can’t do what thermal can. And of course, then looking into optics, you find that visible is transmitted through water which really is a transparent medium for it, because of this it can’t even operate on an electronic transition process, let alone heat the whole molecule of water which is the AGWSF claim – and that teaches ‘because blue visible penetrates deeper it heats the water deeper down’.
But nowhere that I can find boldly states with no ambiguity, that visible light from the sun produces heat and how great that heat is when compared to near IR. Which I find strange given how topical global warming is at the moment. Sorry if this looks a bit messy, how are quotes, italics and such put into a post?
Not as messy as some of mine where I do put in italics and blockquotes.. Italics, bold and such are in angle brackets enclosing i and /i etc., click on the Test option top of page for this and more info.
It’s now practically impossible for those who do know the differences to spell this out without ambiguity. Teachers in schools have to be wary how they teach such basics if they know them. Lots of examples from discussions among them and students who failed to get into courses because they didn’t agree the science was settled. Those gravitating towards applied sciences will finally get to teachers who sort this out, but for the majority it will be living in an impossible world where ‘shortwave light heats up matter and creates thermal infrared and the thermal energy we feel from the Sun or incandescent lightbulb is visible light and thermal infrared direct from the Sun doesn’t reach us, somehow it disappears en route’. It’s hard to believe we’ve gained and lost so much in such a short time.
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 22, 2011 at 7:14 am
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:18 am
Leif: “Herschel discovered infrared and showed in the process that visible light heats”
Myrrh: Shrug, since visible light isn’t capable of moving molecules into vibrational states,
Leif: “What Herschel found was that all thermometers showed an increase, including the ones only subjected to visible light.”
Myrrh: ? Yeah, so? We know that visible light isn’t capable of doing this.
Leif: In spite of what you think you know, the temperatures did all go up. BTW, infrared photons have less energy than those of visible light
And you avoid the point I’m making. Just what were they measuring?
We know in real world physics that visible light works on the sub atomic level of electrons, electronic transitions where it isn’t in a transparent medium to it such as water. This does not move the whole molecule into vibrational states which is how something heats up in the real world. We know this. Tried and tested and used for many decades in countless real world applications. Moreover, since visible light is absorbed by the electrons of the molecules of nitrogen and oxygen in our atmosphere before they bounce it back out (reflection/scattering) – where is the heat created by this shown in the AGWSF energy budget?
Junk science remains junk science regardless amount of obfuscation directed against preventing rational examination.
It hasn’t taken zac long to come to asking the same questions I came to:
“But nowhere that I can find boldly states with no ambiguity, that visible light from the sun produces heat and how great that heat is when compared to near IR. Which I find strange given how topical global warming is at the moment.”
So where should we look for this information which should be basic to explaining the ‘energy budget’ since you generic never produce it when asked?
How does visible light heat the molecules of water of Earth’s oceans?
Nasif Nahle says:
October 22, 2011 at 9:17 am
@Leif Svalgaard…
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:18 am
“Herschel discovered infrared and showed in the process that visible light heats” Shrug, since visible light isn’t capable of moving molecules into vibrational states,
“What Herschel found was that all thermometers showed an increase, including the ones only subjected to visible light.”
? Yeah, so? We know that visible light isn’t capable of doing this.
In spite of what you think you know, the temperatures did all go up. BTW, infrared photons have less energy than those of visible light.
…………
I agree with Dr. Leif Svalgaard; visible light is considered into thermal radiation spectrum, i.e. radiation that can be transferred like heat or work. When visible light is absorbed by a system, it can be transformed into static energy that causes increase of the system’s temperature.
That it is so considered is an AGWScience Fiction meme. In traditional well known tried and tested and used in countless applications visible is Light not Heat. You can consider it as thermal as you want, but it is incapable of moving whole molecules into vibrational states which is how molecules of matter get heated because it is not a thermal energy, it doesn’t have the power to do this. The junk energy budget claims that shortwaves (Light) heat the Earth’s land and oceans and that thermal infrared (Heat), the real heat energy we feel as heat direct from the Sun, doesn’t play any part in directly heating land and oceans. This is simply nonsense, garbage in will get you garbage out.
Prove that visible light can raise the temperature of water as per the claim. If you can’t, then you have to take it out of your energy budget.
Leif Svalgaard says:
The observed temperature is 288K, so the difference 33K is due to GHG [mostly H2O and CO2].
Good science requires that we distinguish between what is proven and what is theory, before we speak in absolutes. The difference is due to GHG according to specific theories. Other theories attribute other causes.
For example: Wikipedia says the “greenhouse effect” in real greenhouses is due mainly to convection, and radiative transfer has only a minor role. The EPA says that the atmospheric greenhouse effect is due to the same causes as in real greenhouses, so according to these sources, the 33K must mainly be due to convection, and GHG plays only a minor role.
Myrrh,
I have a visible [green] laser that can pop balloons. Does that count as thermal energy?
Chuck Wiese says:
October 22, 2011 at 10:14 am
I’ve already addressed most of what you’ve posted.
The specific visible wavelengths that are absorbed and not re-emitted can and do cause electronic and vibrational transitions in atoms that cause a thermal reaction which is measured by change in temperature.
And as I’ve already said. Visible light from the Sun works on an electronic transitional level, not capable of moving atoms and molecules into vibration, therefore, incapable of heating them. Show me exactly how visible light from the Sun heats water.
Smokey, I’ve already said that lasers can be adjusted for intensity, just as using a magnifying glass alters intensity. Green light is not a thermal energy any more than is UV which we cannot feel as thermal but which can burn our skin, UV works on the DNA level, burning of the skin is a chemical reaction as much as plants using visible energy to create sugars is a chemical effect. Visible does not move molecules into vibrational states which is what has to happen to matter to raise its temperature, to heat it up.
UV doesn’t penetrate further than the first layer of skin, the epidermis. Thermal infrared penetrates much deeper and heats us up from the inside because we are mainly water, and water, “absorbs so strongly in this range”.
It’s the thermal energy from the Sun which heats us up, which heats up land and oceans. This has been removed from the energy budget. This missing heat is a travesty..
Myrrh
You keep stating that visible light affects only the electrons in a molecule and does not impart vibrational energy. If you were shown that this statement is incorrect would it change your mind?
Any spectroscopist who has looked at the vibrational fine structure of an electronic transition knows that you cannot have an electronic transition without an associated vibrational transition.Look up the Franck-Condon effect.
Likewise, if you are interested, and vibrational transition has associated rotational structure i.e. microwave level energy changes.
Look it up.
ferd berple says:
October 22, 2011 at 12:34 pm
For example: Wikipedia says the “greenhouse effect” in real greenhouses is due mainly to convection,
Straw man, as the Earth is not a ‘real’ greenhouse with walls and ceiling. But the atmosphere is actually heated from below, mostly by convection from the heated surface.
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 12:17 pm
that thermal infrared (Heat), the real heat energy we feel as heat direct from the Sun, doesn’t play any part in directly heating land and oceans.
Nobody is saying that [except you just now]. All light of any wavelength that gets to the surface play a part in heating it.
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 12:05 pm
How does visible light heat the molecules of water of Earth’s oceans?
Visible light penetrates rather deep into the oceans, of the order of 100 meters, before finally being absorbed. As it is absorbed, it will heat the water. Mostly by exciting vibrations of the water molecules, not exciting the electrons. There is no mystery here, just well-known physics.
Chuck Weise you write to Myrrh “I’m sure you would agree that infrared radiation at any wavelength is opaque to glass”. Having proved to myself only a few posts before yours, that glass is not opaque to near IR ie my Tv IR remote controls my TV perfectly OK through glass up to the the same distances as it does without glass in front of it, I don’t believe Myrrh has to agree.
As for Far IR, I do believe glass does attenuate It as when I shut the door of my log burner which has a glass panel it is easy to detect the drop in radiant heat. But I say attenuate because the glass panel builds up with soot over time and when cleaned (a major chore) the increase in radiant heat is also obvious, so far IR must also pass through glass albeit attenuated
I’m getting rather suspicious of modern science assumptions of what is correct without physical proof. In fact I would rather a scientist observe a phenomenon and then investigate why it occurs rather than the other way round.
jimmi_the_dalek says:
October 22, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Myrrh
You keep stating that visible light affects only the electrons in a molecule and does not impart vibrational energy. If you were shown that this statement is incorrect would it change your mind?
Any spectroscopist who has looked at the vibrational fine structure of an electronic transition knows that you cannot have an electronic transition without an associated vibrational transition.Look up the Franck-Condon effect.
Likewise, if you are interested, and vibrational transition has associated rotational structure i.e. microwave level energy changes.
Look it up.
Yeah, yeah, always the ‘go look it up’, SHOW me proof that Visible light heats water. Water is transparent medium to visible light, visible light doesn’t even get to play with the electrons.
And if what you claim is true, how much hotter are the molecules of nitrogen and oxygen in our atmosphere whose electrons absorb visible light and reflect/scatter it all over the sky?? It’s not in the energy budget.
…………
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 22, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 12:17 pm
that thermal infrared (Heat), the real heat energy we feel as heat direct from the Sun, doesn’t play any part in directly heating land and oceans.
Nobody is saying that [except you just now]. All light of any wavelength that gets to the surface play a part in heating it.
Why do you always come out with this kind of bs? The only reason I’m responding is that it’s the repetition of this garbage by those like you which is dumbing down real science education. You have a lot to answer for being party to this by trying to confuse readers here. That’s exactly the claim.
The claim is that UV/Visible/NrIR heat land and oceans and thermal infrared is excluded. Shortwave in, longwave out. That’s the claim. That’s exactly as in the KT97 and of its ilk. That is the AGW Science Fiction Meme of its Science Fiction Energy Budget, that Light energies are thermal, heating the Earth’s land and oceans. That’s exactly how it is described in the ‘greenhouse cartoon’, that thermal doesn’t get through and it is the shortwaves that heat the ground which then radiates out thermal. You know the arguments.
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 22, 2011 at 1:41 pm
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 12:05 pm
How does visible light heat the molecules of water of Earth’s oceans?
Visible light penetrates rather deep into the oceans, of the order of 100 meters, before finally being absorbed. As it is absorbed, it will heat the water. Mostly by exciting vibrations of the water molecules, not exciting the electrons. There is no mystery here, just well-known physics.
Visible light doesn’t even get to play with the electrons of the molecules of water. It is not powerful enough to excite the whole molecule which is what it takes to heat up water. Water is a transparent medium for Visible light, it is transmitted through. It does not heat water because it cannot do what it takes to heat water.
And “just well-known physics” is only just well known in the science fiction physics created by corrupting real physics to support the dumbing down of the population the better to accept the garbage in of all AGW arguments.
Show me, actually go and fetch a real world text book in applied science which shows the detail of how visible light from the Sun heats water and the applications of this in real life. You can’t. It doesn’t exist. Your continual detractions to avoid admitting this and deliberately generating confusion about claims is not very impressive, but that’s all you can do to support the garbage in of AGW.
Show me, actually go and fetch a real world physics text book in applied science which shows the detail of how visible light from the Sun heats water and the applications of this in real life. You can’t. It doesn’t exist.
Prove it exists, prove to all of us here that it exists, go fetch it.
zac says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Chuck Weise you write to Myrrh “I’m sure you would agree that infrared radiation at any wavelength is opaque to glass”. Having proved to myself only a few posts before yours, that glass is not opaque to near IR ie my Tv IR remote controls my TV perfectly OK through glass up to the the same distances as it does without glass in front of it, I don’t believe Myrrh has to agree. etc.
Thank you zac.
Have you tried bouncing the near ir remote around the room, ceilings, walls, to change channels? Discovered by accident when I leaned on it and it was pointing away from the tv and changed the channel.
This whole thing reminds me (in its futility) of a discussion I once had (on another board) with one of those people who was so convinced that the GHE violates the laws of thermodynamics that he claimed that if photons emitted by a cooler object should happen to come across a warmer object in their travels, then they would just vanish rather than be absorbed.
Myrrh, I said “look it up” because that’s where you find the proof. Unless, that is, you believe that every textbook on physics in general or spectroscopy in particular has been doctored as part of a conspiracy.
Yes I have tried bouncing the near IR around and it will reflect off the walls and control the TV.That is why I placed a towel over everything to eliminate this. Have you read my post and what I found?
I hope this is the link.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/18/replicating-al-gores-climate-101-video-experiment-shows-that-his-high-school-physics-could-never-work-as-advertised/#comment-774733
Myrrh says:
October 22, 2011 at 2:33 pm
The claim is that UV/Visible/NrIR heat land and oceans and thermal infrared is excluded.
That is not the claim. That is your distortion of it.
Water is a transparent medium for Visible light, it is transmitted through.
If this were true then the ocean bottom should be bathed in visible sunlight. But is it pitch dark down there. Light penetrates only about 100 meter into the ocean and it thus absorbed and thus heats the water [or do you think the energy just disappears?]
Myrrh: So if an object got really hot, like 100,000K, the object would have a peak emission at .029 um, or far into the UV spectrum. This means there would also be a considerable amount visible light emitted by such an object as well as infrared radiation, such as from a star. But between .8 and 80 microns ( the infrared spectrum ), the emission is 1.58 x 10 E9 Wm-2, which means if you had a black body nearby to absorb just that part of the electromagnetic radiation, its temperature would only reach 12,900 K or approximately 13% of the emitting star’s temperature right next to it, separated by just a few feet in space.
Of course, such an assumption is absurd, and everyone knows the temperature of the black body would have to be much higher and a lot closer to the emitting body’s temperature, and that is precisely due to the fact that radiation absorbed at the visible and UV wavelengths would cause additionall large spikes in the temperature of such an object. There is no experiment that you could conduct that would prove that a temperature rise in any object by shining visible light on it is only owing to the absorption of infrared radiation by that light unless it had an albedo of 1, and I challenge you to show everyone such a condition. There are countless examples where considering all wavelengths of an emitter involved, that the temperature of such an object absorbing them would experience a temperature rise in close agreement with the established radiation laws as long as the specific heat and emissivity of the absorbing property are known.
Your claims are baseless in light of experimental evidence and established radiation laws.