WUWT reader W. Earl Allen attended this talk and provided notes of his observations. First the talk summary:
The seminar is a Chemical Science Division seminar entitled “Climategate, Michael Mann, and Penn State’s investigation”:
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Please note: this special seminar will precede the usual CSD seminar. There will be a 15 minute break in between the two.
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The release of emails purloined from the Climate Research Unit at East Anglia University inflamed the passion and politics that surround climate science. As one of the climate scientists whose emails were released, Professor Michael Mann, who I recruited to Penn State, became a focal point of this passion in the United States.
Intense pressure was put on Penn State to investigate Professor Mann, initiating a process that led to his exoneration eight months later. As Professor Mann’s department head, I was a participant in Penn State’s investigative process. At David Fahey’s request, I will tell what I can about Climategate, Michael Mann, and Penn State’s investigation.
W. Earl Allen writes of the event a few hours later:
The security gauntlet at a supposedly open scientific research center was daunting, surprising, and most unwelcome. Fortunately, I came about a half hour early so as to be there early enough to set up for recording, which turned out to be disallowed, so I was happy that I had time to run the gauntlet, which was pretty much exactly equivalent to the security imposed by the TSA. I’ve worked at federal facilities before, and this was far and away the most intrusive and unwelcome security I have ever experienced.
One possibly irrelevant note: the NOAA research center is named for former congressperson from Boulder, David Skaggs, who I ran against in 1996 as a Libertarian. On the way in, someone questioned the tastefulness of naming such a place for a still-living person. But I guess anyone who diverted so much Federal money to Boulder deserves his name on the building.
An overview: The room was packed SRO, which Brune appeared to be surprised about, since he expected a very small seminar with only a few interested scientists. Brune opened with a backgrounder about the history of Penn State and his department within Penn State. He noted that Pennsylvania was a coal-mining state. He described hiring Michael Mann 6 years ago. Brune was very annoyed to get a lot of offensive emails and phone calls about Michael Mann when Climategate revealed Mann to be one of the primary foci of the “hacked” emails.
Brune spent several minutes ruminating about the possible problems of using email for a “conversation”. I’m not sure this is just the opinion of someone brought up in the landline phone age or someone worried about revealing the internal “sausage” of science in the making. One of the questioners asked whether or not all emails between scientists should be encrypted. Brune thought that was a very good question, but didn’t necessarily agree that all emails should be encrypted.
Like all good academic bureaucrats, when faced with a messy political problem, Brune turned to “the process”, which at Penn State has a name: RA-10. He said that he decided to use that process to handle the problem. He noted that there was no *internal* request for inquiry from within Penn State itself, so they had to “construct” questions to put to Mann from inquiries from outside the University. He seemed a bit huffy that he had to deal with “outside” inquirers, as if the only “real” problems would surface from within Penn State itself, and any controversy imposed from outside was somehow just an annoyance. {/editorial on} Talk about Ivory Towers. Reminds me of the Falwlty ones. {/editorial off}
The first step was an Administrative Inquiry, led by Bill Easterling, the Dean. Brune himself, being department chair, and the guy who hired Mann, was considered only a “consultant” to this initial Administrative Inquiry. They constructed four questions for this inquiry, which they put to Mann himself. He was exonerated regarding the first three (sorry I didn’t get the details of those questions, but since Lindzen objected to Mann’s exoneration on those first three, they must be available somewhere). The only remaining question was whether Mann had somehow played fast and loose with a paper out for review in preprint, which seemed to me to be an entirely irrelevant question.
Brune emphasized that Mann was a great student of the Philosophy of Science, and that he was “very much the scientist.”
The second stage of RA-10, called an “Investigative Committee”, which included Will Castleman and token “denier”, Richard Lindzen, got to look at only the fourth question. Lindzen was nonplussed to note that the first three questions had been deemed non-questions, and was ignored subsequently. Brune made an interesting remark to a questioner about Richard Lindzen, asking the questioner, “Do you know Richard Lindzen?” The questioner said he didn’t. Brune said that “Richard Lindzen can stand for any number of people.” I took that to mean that he could stand for just about all the deniers “out there.” But I may have misunderstood Brune.
Brune emphasized that “in summary,” nothing was found against Michael Mann, and that the whole inquiry process wasted hundreds of hours of very productive academic time.
In closing his lecture, Brune noted that climate is not just an extension of the weather, and that people like Joe Bastardi, who insist on this point, have cut all ties with Penn State and excoriated Mann and Penn State for their bad behavior. Brune appeared to carry it as a badge of honor that Bastardi no longer supports Penn State. When someone asked whether donations to Penn State had dropped off because of the Mann inquiry, Brune said he wasn’t aware of any such decrease.
I enjoyed hearing Brune emphasize that scientists *should* be skeptics, and that they should never take anything on faith, since to do so would be “religion.” I wish some of his colleagues would take that admonition to heart.
Brune ruminated on the necessity for publicizing all code, noting that 10 years ago, this wouldn’t have been good practice, nor necessary. He said that it appears that the new standard in research is to reveal all your data for replication, and that code probably should also be revealed, although he waffled a bit on that one.
Brune agonized about the “politicized environment” that produced the whole controversy around Michael Mann, and then opened the floor for questions.
None of bouldersolar’s questions got asked. He appears to have gotten them from Steve McIntyre’s site, so I’ll let him post them here if he wishes. I got to ask one question: Since so much of science now relies on computer codes, isn’t the whole project of modeling a hypercomplex non-linear chaotic system in an attempt to make psychic prognostications 50 or 100 years out a bit hubristic? Brune’s answer was that I should take his course in climatology once it comes online. I said I would love to do so. There was a bit of a titter as I asked the question, but not much of a one for that answer.
I got to “dialog” with a “dynamics” modeler after the session who explained that there’s a difference between engineers like McIntyre and “scientists” doing modeling and other scientific work. Science is a lot less exact, while engineers expect perfection. I countered by asking him to state exactly what the measured human contribution to the current CO2 concentration was. He rambled on about how this can be done with isotopes. I said yes, that is one way. Tell me what the measured percentage is. He had no answer. I asked him about the 50X sink of CO2 in the oceans, and he said that had already been covered, and by implication, dismissed.
I left the room with the impression that nobody had asked the “elephant” question. Had the money that Mann brought to Penn State from Federal sources caused him to bend his research to fit the requirements of his Federal funders? To ask such a question on the grounds of a Federal research facility might have been a bit too brash.
Verity Jones says:
October 6, 2011 at 11:00 am
“Hmm. In my experience scientists need exactitude while engineers are comfortable with estimates bounded by error quantification.”
Depends a lot on whether a feature is safety-critical or not.
Now who’s the Nittany Lion, and who’s the Nittany Jackal?
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Joe B. if there are TWO things I ever learned early in life it was –
1. Don’t irritate the college wrestler’s. It’s not worth it getting a “free” lesson in “catch as catch can”.
2. Don’t irritate the college Hockey players. Although you can more readily tell them (random missing teeth), getting “checked” into a locker or a retaining wall, really hurts if you are not used to it.
LAST, both types of personalities will FIGHT TO THE VERY END.
Keep up the good work!
Max
PS: Married a GYMNAST?? You’re the MAN, you didn’t fool around with the “hippie chicks” !
I read Bastardi comment. The comment has all of the hallmarks of an honest man and an honest professional. It was straight talk. The AGWers on the otherhand don’t talk this way– they probably don’t think this way. I am an adament sketic of ‘tipping point’ AGW — it is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof. They don’t even come close. Bastardi’s long-range forecasts are more persuasive to me because they are based on actual data and proven physical science. I am less skeptical about his claims, but as he admits himself, we all have to follow the data as it accumulates.
W. Earl Allen,
I appreciate your peek into the seminar.
Thank you. I think I owe you a brew.
John
Nice reporting Mr. Allen
I must say, lately the posts have been reporting on such petulant men! Having been raised on a small, meat and potatoes ranch, even the black sheep of the family rise above these sniveling he-said-she-said whiny suits in white smocks.
I got to “dialog” with a “dynamics” modeler after the session who explained that there’s a difference between engineers like McIntyre and “scientists” doing modeling and other scientific work. Science is a lot less exact, while engineers expect perfection.
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Yep. I think that that is admission that the science and the scientists have failed miserably in the field of climate. Time for universities and climate research centers to let the scientists go and start hiring engineers or at least scientists with engineering backgrounds. We could also do with shutting down the IPCC and other useless UN orgs, and putting engineers in charge of the data gathering, the analysis and the summary for policy makers.
Or better yet, just defund it all and let’s get back to the real world and deal with the real problems that we face on this planet.
Science is a lot less exact, while engineers expect perfection.
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My degree from the University of British Columbia says: Bachelor of APPLIED SCIENCE. In other words, it is a degree earned to apply science to real life situations. And therefore we need the science to be reasonably correct for practical purposes. But because we know that the “science” may not be totally accurate, we apply safety factors to the work which may vary depending on the application. We NEVER expect perfection, only appropriate functionality.
“An engineer is a person who passes as an exciting technical expert on the basis of being able to turn out with prolific fortitude, infinite strings of comprehensive results calculated with microscopic precision from vague assumptions and debatable figures taken from inconclusive data obtained with recording devices of problematical accuracy by uninformed persons of doubtful reliability and questionable mentality under the influence of … .”
Brune is yet more proof of Willis Eschenbach’s superb posting at Judith Curry’s Climate, Etc blog on July 25: http://judithcurry.com/2011/07/25/a-scientists-manifesto/#comment-90161
The final paragraph:
“The problem is not bad communication. The problem is bad actions by bad actors. It is compounded by the fact that you, Judith, and the overwhelming majority of AGW climate scientists, refuse to name names. “
Hum: “…Brune emphasized that Mann was a great student of the Philosophy of Science, and that he was “very much the scientist.” ” Perhaps Dr. Brune as well as Mann should reread Karl Popper. They could read any number of my essays on the subject too. Most important however is the concept of ethics in relation to science. The philosophy of science has nothing to say about ethics or morels. These are questions that other branches of philosophy have said much about.
Micheal Mann has conducted in fraudleunt and academic dishonesty and attacks his critics with ad-homeinem attacks. In a response I have created a crude cartoon of MANNBearPig. I hope this follows the comment policy.
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ws2rh2&s=7
My stenographer mother would be proud of me. 🙂
Here is what Brune said about Bastardi:
“Does any one know Joe Bastardi? Joe Bastardi is one of our alums. After all this (ed the investigation) on his european blog he was so disgusted with us he essentially denounced all his ties with us. He is now with fox news” (laughter)
I have been posting other quotes of this talk on Climate Audit. Will post more when I have time.
@Jay Currie, Luke Warm, H.R. & kim;) You’re Very Welcome.
@RWS LOL!
@Forrest M. Mims III Thanks for all those electronics projects! Your explanations are always clear and understandable.
@Ron Cram The seminar was led by a senior chairman deciding whose questions got asked and wrapping up the meeting when the time came. He was quite willing to allow a couple of attendees, bouldersolar among them, to ask two questions. The questions that were ignored were on a printed sheet that bouldersolar handed out to many of the attendees.
@Joe Kirklin Bastardi Many thanks for explaining the background to the split between you and Brune and Penn State. Very enlightening.
@Laurie Great suggestions regarding questioning. I’ll admit to being a bit over the top and wished I’d had someone with me to moderate my questions. bouldersolar sat in a different part of the room and I was unable to test questions with him. I did try to mold the question around the use of computer codes, which was much under discussion during the seminar.
@John Whitman I’ll take you up on that any time you want. If you’re ever at the Boulder Airport, we could have one at the Free Bird.
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Dennis Nikols, P. Geo.,
Yet I would think that for a rational man/woman (such as a physical scientist) to have integrity in the broadest sense then they need consistency across all branches of their own philosophy. If not then their ethics may not have an objective scientifically informed basis.
And could a set of scientific virtues be possible without some basic sense of fairness and honesty deriving from some aspect of a moral base?
Love this stuff.
John
The discussion on this topic has exceeded my expectations. There is a lot to digest here.
For any newcomers to WUWT, I would suggest you wait a day or so and then reread this post and comments carefully up to this point. Then you make your own decision as to the viewers of WUWT. You will likely be here to stay. There is a lot to be learned here.
O’Reily?
Feynman might disagree. So would Judea Pearl.
More Soylent Green! says:
October 6, 2011 at 8:32 am
There is a new discipline for software development called Software Engineering.
New Disipline????? I had a course in that 20 years ago.
” Science is a lot less exact, while engineers expect perfection.”
This is bizarre. I am a nuclear engineer, and although we do need to strive for perfection, because, as someone else noted, people will die if we don’t, we have the ability to include safety margins in our designs to take care of the uncertainties. Some of the uncertainties come from our designs and the difficulty of predicting all of the crazy things that might happen to the stuff that we design, but some also comes from the uncertainty associated with the fundamental scientific principles and quantities that we use that come from “science”. I think that the scientists need to be even more perfect that the engineers, because the rest of the society depends on the information/knowledge that they provide to come up with useful products and policies.
As we have seen recently from CERN, some REAL scientists are concerned about time differences on the order of nanoseconds, with respect to their effect on our understanding of some very basic, and important scientific principles. Those physicists are quite skeptical about what they discovered, and have made ALL of their data and methods available to EVERYONE, in an attempt to get the rest of the world to try to shoot it down. They don’t consider the science to be settled, and they invite scrutiny of their results. Unlike some “scientists” at Penn State…
Brian H says:
October 6, 2011 at 9:49 pm
O’Reily?
Feynman might disagree. So would Judea Pearl.
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Brian H,
Thanks for the comment.
I think in Feynman you see a very strict set of scientific virtues that I think do reflect his moral attitude about ‘bending over backwards’ in support of fairness and honesty.
I would need to check on O’Reily and Judea Pearl. Thanks for the references.
John
Forrest M. Mims III says:
“While discussing a related idea by e-mail with an NSF program officer, she told me that an NSF proposal I was planning must be based on a global warming theme or it would not be given serious consideration. ”
wow.
Forrest Mims is one of the digital electronics wizards of the age in case anybody didn’t know.
Super inventive and totally practical, is he.
What was Brune thinking? Did he feel left out, that he wasn’t getting his share of the blame for the mess at Penn State? With his cheap shot at Joe Bastardi he places himself in the stereotype of “used car salesman”. And they ask why we do not trust climate scientists.
Thank you Mr. Bastardi for your reply and efforts to straighten out your stand.
I too have found it disappointing to see my school (Purdue Univ.) become more “Political” since I left to work in industry as a chemist. As others have said if you mess up in the real world people can die or be badly hurt. I have seen it happen more than once during my career as a result of “shoddy work” or cost cutting.
How others can sleep at night knowing they have intentionally put others lives at risk just for a few bucks in their paycheck has always been beyond me.
W. Earl Allen says:
October 6, 2011 at 4:49 pm
@Forrest M. Mims III Thanks for all those electronics projects! Your explanations are always clear and understandable.
I grew up with his project books! I still have the blue one with the projects on graph paper laying around as a reference 35 years later. Glad to know he is still alive 🙂 Thanks for the curiosity you instilled so many years ago.
Neo says:
October 6, 2011 at 6:39 am
If engineering were exact, we wouldn’t need safety margins.
Also, there would be the one best way of doing something. As student computer programmers make the transition to software engineers, one important lesson is that what starts out as binary balck and white ceases to apply in all but the simplest of systems.