By Mike Smith
There is no question that the events in Japan are ongoing and serious. That said, I believe a lot of people are being misled by much of the news coverage. Take a look at these headlines from the Christian Science Monitor and from Channel News Asia, respectively,
and,
“Three Mile Island” and “Chernobyl” sounds scary, right?
Let me ask a couple of questions? How many were killed by the Three Mile Island incident?
100?
10,000?
100,000?
Answer here
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The KneeJerk boogie has begun. Lieberman and others are calling for a moratorium on US nuke plant construction “until such time” as we yadda, yadda, yadda.
I don’t believe only 56 died because of the Chernobyl incident. The radiation has mutiliated much much more than that both immediately and long term. I think they are only counting the immediate deaths.
That being said, I don’t see anything inherently wrong or dangerous about nuclear energy except this has shown some locations need to be re-evaluated. Especially in California.
But there is no need to fear future plants being built. Even if they get approved the government regulations will prevent any real progress in this area.
David said
March 14, 2011 at 4:19 am
http://www.caithnesswindfarms.co.uk/accidents.pdf / Summary of Wind Turbine Accident data to 31 December 2010
That’s taken from a source that is against wind turbines so I am not sure how much credence you should give it. If the figure is accurate then fine. However the people behind that site are not against wind farms because of the danger but because of the visual impact of them in the lovely countryside up there.
In regards to danger they seem more concerned about the radioactive particles turning up on the beaches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reay
Andy
Volt Aire, Try reading this article. It’s simple, and deals with relative risks from significant sources of energy.
http://www.energypulse.net/centers/article/article_display.cfm?a_id=498
Enjoy.
It’s not a question of downplaying a disater it is more one of being fed up with end of the world scenarios being fed to us everyday, yet here we still are. Get a grip…
There will be a lot of lessons learned from this, particularly on resilience of coolant systems and their backups. Hopefully this is also a wakeup call to China and India where construction standards are pretty lax.
So far I have seen no-one point out that the main reactor vessels survived a 9.0 quake and successfully went into shutdown mode. Nor have I seen anyone comment that major scale windpower is not viable in Japan due to vulnerability to typhoons and tsunamis. So much for the MSM commentariat.
The diesel generators failed becuase they were swamped by the tsunami, the were built, stupidly, on low land. The operators fully expected the sea walls to hold. Also, I’ve read the secondary containment on these reactors is much weaker than at TMI, but better than Chernobyl (which isn’t saying much). So there were some serious design flaws.
Also, please remember that Chernobyl was 100% human failure. It was a half-assed unit built by the Soviet Union (nuff said right there) AND the workers were actively trying to cause an emergency test situation… at that they they did a nice job.
Volt Aire
If you don’t understand why the Chernobyl reactor cannot be compared to any other reactor anywhere in the world today and why the Chernobyl accident cannot be compared to an accident involving any other reactor, you should find that out before making more uninformed comments.
goodbye, safe nuclear power development.
Hello, even MORE oil and gas dependence.
no other choice.
Ignorance and projection are the two largest sources of energy in the world. They will transport you to places rocket fuel never can.
The following is an excerpt from a graduate paper at the Naval Postgraduate School that I wrote in 1997 on Chernobyl and Ukrainian foreign policy. It discusses the various casualty estimates as understood a decade after the accident. Unfortunately, the citations didn’t transfer over, but if anyone is really interested, I can make them available.
Short-term Casualties:
There is no agreement on the extent of the damage to people’s health from Chernobyl-related causes. Too many political interests are involved to allow consensus on the issue as governmental organs and the nuclear power and medical communities debate even the question of short-term casualties. The Soviet government put forth the initial figure of two deaths and then by the summer of 1986 raised the figure to 31 people killed (28 people from radiation poisoning and 3 from other causes). This figure of 31 casualties is the most quoted by the nuclear power industry and is still widely accepted in the press as the total casualty list. However, some experts on Ukraine and Chernobyl place the figure much higher and regard the Soviet figure (and the nuclear power industry statistics) as more deliberate obfuscation. David Marples wrote of the figure of 31 casualties, “The official casualty report has developed into something of a truism–if it is repeated often enough, people began to accept it.” Marples added, “…the figure of 31 direct casualties at Chernobyl is as mythic today as it was in 1986. During the early cleanup phase, it was clear there would be many more victims, particularly among the crews decontaminating the plant, those flying helicopter sorties over the roof of the gaping reactor in a flawed attempt to stop radiation from leaking into the atmosphere, and those working at the reactor scene at a variety of other hazardous tasks.”
Of the decontamination workers, known as liquidators, at least 5,000 had died by 1990 although not all were attributable to Chernobyl and the Ukrainian health ministry places the number of Chernobyl-related deaths as approximately 4,000 for Ukrainian citizens. On the opposite end of the spectrum from the 31 figure, some unsubstantiated estimates from environmental organizations go as high as 125,000 deaths attributable to Chernobyl since 1986.
Long-term Health Effects:
Again, the question of the long-term health effects of Chernobyl is highly politicized. Advocates of nuclear power such as the IAEA tend to downplay long-term adverse effects of low-level radiation poisoning and the extensive research on the subject is not conclusive. Effectively, however, approximately two million Ukrainians live within contaminated areas surrounding Chernobyl including nearly 500 people who have voluntarily returned to live within the 30-km exclusion zone. Compounding the problem of living with unacceptably high levels of ambient radiation is the lack of uncontaminated food as a largely rural population in Ukraine and Belarus continue to eat contaminated local produce.
A further obstacle to pinpointing the long-term health effects of the Chernobyl accident is the delineation between Chernobyl-related illnesses and those originating from other sources. The areas effected by radiation in Ukraine and Belarus are also heavily polluted areas from industrial sources. The difficult question then becomes which illnesses stem from what source? For example, using the Ukrainian Health Ministry estimates that only 28-32 percent of Ukrainian adults and 27-31 percent of children were assessed to be in good health in 1991, what portion of the approximate 70 percent of the population in ill health is due to Chernobyl? How do medical researchers discount illnesses caused by industrial pollutants, poor nutrition, the effects of smoking and alcohol, etc? There is no easy solution to this problem. Although the logical starting point would be to compare data for the affected regions prior to Chernobyl with data subsequent to the accident, the data is not complete in either case and has become a source of acrimony in the medical community—consequently allowing the data to remain open to political interpretation.
Looking at the areas that have relative consensus, it seems apparent that in general that there has been a downturn in the health of the Ukrainian and Belarus populations. This has been highlighted in particular by dramatic increases in the rate of thyroid cancer among children which “…appear to correlate closely with the areas that received the most radioactive fallout.” Incidentally, had the Soviet government warned the population about the radiation, much of the iodine radiation poisoning could have been avoided by eating canned food and by not allowing children to drink contaminated milk. The studies quoted by Marples on thyroid cancer in Belarus and Ukraine indicate that approximately 90 percent of the childhood cases are Chernobyl-related and roughly 10 percent of those will be incurable. Furthermore, one estimate figures that one child in ten in the heavily contaminated areas is likely to develop thyroid cancer. IAEA studies (which tend to be dramatically more conservative than most) of more than 800 cases of thyroid cancer in children in Belarus indicate roughly similar results with a slightly higher percentage of cases attributable to Chernobyl but at a higher predicted success rate in treatment.
Other biological concerns that have been related to the accident at Chernobyl are impaired immune response, increased rates of leukemia and other cancers as well as indications that genetic damage is occurring in animals and humans in the highly contaminated regions. This was surprising to some researchers who based on data from Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not expect to see genetic damage. Particularly disturbing are indications that DNA mutation is being passed down to subsequent generations. Some preliminary studies are showing DNA mutation rates among Belarus children are twice as high as in a control group of British children. The long-term effects of these genetic mutations are not understood and by their nature may not be for generations.
Despite expert commentary trying to put them right the BBC seem to want people to think its going to be a Nuclear Winter! It really is sad that what was once the most respected broadcaster in the world is now reviled as a bed of political propaganda!
Dellingpole this a.m….
Nuclear fatalities in the last ten years: 7
Wind farm fatalities in the last ten years: 44
Go figure and lets look at the banana post again!
Translated Government messages/press releases here: http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/topics/2011/earthquake2011tohoku.html
How many accidents have there been worldwide with wind turbines, since they started being used in earnest..?
One..?
Ten..?
A hundred..??
Answer: 933.
How many fatalities..?
None..?
One..?
Ten..?
Answer: 73.
(There’ll be many more when maintaining offshore farms becomes an ongoing situation, I reckon..)
Makes nuclear power’s record look pretty good, really…
All this debate amazes me, firstly because thousands of people have lost their lives due to the earthquake and the resultant tsunami. Yet much of the media comment centres on the events at the nuclear power stations. If these hopelessly ignorant media people actually did some homework they would not put out what are obviously misleading headlines that can only add to the anxiety already present amongst those affected.
Despite a catastophe of epic proportions the plants survived despite being heavily damaged. Yes they may not work again but the safety built in will contain the situation despite local consequences. Thankfully!
Volt Aire says:
March 14, 2011 at 4:54 am
Please go back and read the banana post on WUWT! Also try http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Battle_to_stabilise_earthquake_reactors_1203111.html for the real stuff not the MSN garbage!
Ironically , the treatment for thyroid cancer is a thyroidectomy and a drink of radioactive iodine.
If the diesels were running when they were flooded they would have hydraulic lock which usually bends the con rods , snaps cranks , cracks cylinders.
I was involved for several years through a local Rotary Club with a group that hosted groups of children affected by the Chernobyl event. As with so many if these do-gooding activities it began very laudably with the aim of getting some of these kids away from the area for a couple of weeks.
I got into trouble with the local organisers last year when I suggested that none of the youngsters that were being hosted that year had been born until at least 10 years after the event. The reaction, as a friend commented at the time, “was as if you’d suggested the Virgin Mary was a whore”. (Slight exaggeration!)
The whole “Chernobyl Concept” has taken on a life of its own but a couple of things have become very clear in the last 10 years or so:
1. It’s a peg for the green anti-nuclear fanatics to hang their hats on and it will be trotted out and the effects exaggerated for just as long as it politically useful to do so. The facts (as with such things as Brent Spar, another Greenpeace myth) will not be allowed to get in the way of a campaign;
2. Any deaths in excess of the official 56 are indeed getting “lost in the noise”. The problems that are being suffered by the children (and indeed adults) of Belarus and northern Ukraine are not those of radiation exposure but of dire poverty and abysmal living conditions. These may have served to exacerbate the effects of some radiation exposure as exposure may have made their pre-existing health problems worse.
What is for certain is that 25 years on the effects and likely effects are well-established and as with many of the scare stories which the enviro-extremists rely on to boost their coffers and roll back civilisation to their mythical Golden Age their pronouncements (and their statistics) need to be taken with a very large pinch of salt.
Ecological Tour to Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant
http://www.tourkiev.com/chernobyltour/
Specifically that’s about 100 meters from reactor #4. On the way to the site you get to stop and feed the fish in a cooling channel. Two and three day tours are available. Stay at Chernobyl’s hotel, visit the Chernobyl Museum, see all the local attractions.
Although it’s likely an error to say “radiation” turned the pine trees reddish orange. Historically uranium was used for red/orange coloration in glazed surfaces, which is why common pottery and ceramic objects can be radioactive, like old-fashioned Fiesta dinnerware (Fiestaware). Thus the pine tree coloration is likely just uranium oxide, from dust in the air post-explosion.
BTW, if you’re curious about glazed surfaces, this is informative:
http://nvl.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/jres/105/2/j52hob.pdf
Radioactivity Measurements on Glazed Ceramic Surfaces
Thomas G. Hobbs, NIST, 2000
@ur momisugly Mark Bowlin: Graduate paper 1997 – Chernobyl and Ukrainian foreign policy
Thank you for bringing some perspective and sanity to this discussion….
A few folks have mentioned this, but it bears repeating; there is no way the problems at the Japaese plants can turn into the sort of disaster that happened at Chernobyl. The Japanese plants have multiple containment structures, at least one of which is designed to deal with even a full core meltdown. There is no eviedence that thes containment structures have been compromised. (the explosions have damaged the buildings housing the reactor’s containment structures. Those buildings were never intended as radiation “containment” structures). Moreover, the reactions in all the Japanese plants have been shut down. The temperatures within the reactors are, therefore, going down, making it less likely that there will be a meltdown of nuclear fuel.
Chernobyl, by comparison involved a meltdown of nuclear fuel outside any containment structure. That’s the worst of all worlds, and it is not going to happen in the Japanese plants.
Everyone screaming disaster needs to calm down and focus on the real problem; helping the victims of the quake and tsunami. Calmly analyzed, this crisis, like TMI, shows that properly designed nuclear plants can withstand even the most extreme events, and survive with de minimis radiation leaks. Moreover, these plants were built in the early 70s. New designs are even safer. Unfortunately, an uninformed media with a thirst for hyprbole has already whipped up a frenzy of fear of all things nuclear. Our green friends with their precautionary principle preaching won’t fail to take advantage of this fear. Most of us will, I am afraid, not see the construction of a nuclear plant in the US during our lifetimes. Our society will the poorer for it.
David says:
March 14, 2011 at 5:52 am
“How many accidents have there been worldwide with wind turbines, since they started being used in earnest..?……Makes nuclear power’s record look pretty good, really…”
Don’t you think you’re comparing apples to oranges here? The TMI and Chernobyl figures refer to a specific type of casualty, i.e., nuclear-related injury/death resulting from two specific events.
I’m sure many more people were injured during the construction of those facilities or in the day to day operations. There’s no real analogy with wind power unless you want to compare, say, those sliced in half by the blades.
That 56 number from Chernobyl sounds a little low guys, does he have a reference for that? I agree we’re not even even approaching the 300+ range here and the numbers are not scary. But I believe there were more than 56 people who had direct exposure while trying to permanently encase the core and died soon thereafter from acute exposure. I would guess the number of surrounding-area-cancer-deaths to be on top of that number. That total number from Chernobyl that he’s quoting is a little suspect, just a little. I think it should be more in the 100-200 range, but I wasn’t there. I’ve just talked with people who were in Russia and in that industry at the time. I could be wrong, it just seems slightly low.
It is interesting talking to these Russian guys. They say the reason there were any large numbers of civilian deaths/exposure is because a percentage of nuclear workers at Chernobyl fled the scene as soon as they realized that they were being exposed and some big event was going down. Many of those guys died later as they’d already had an unhealthy dose, but if they had stayed and sacrificed they might have saved other lives. Their comrades stayed and died sooner from the higher dose they received, but they also helped contain the problem.
Well now I have read Volt Aire’s original article. It starts with a linear no threshold assumption (known to be not just wrong but in fact opposite to reality) From there it goes further and assumes that cancers in a carefully screened population are not higher than in and unscreened population unless they are radiation caused cancers.
In total, absolutely unsupportable conclusions. Now Reading Mark Bowlin’s wall of text is very similar.
Hey folks increase in thyroid cancers, the only ones showing significant increase that seem to relate to Chernobyl does not mean a huge increase in the death rate. Thyroid cancer is enormously treatable.
I particularly like the estimate of more cleanup workers having died than the estimate of how many cleanup workers existed. Failure to isolate the variable can result in so much excitement.
FACT : More people die from KFC than from all nuclear incidents combined