Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I did jail time in the Sixties for a peaceful sit-in against the Vietnam War. So (as with many things) my understanding of the issues involved in what may be termed “civil disobedience” is eminently practical as well as theoretical. I was very disturbed by a recent column in the New York Times by Kirk Johnson entitled “Do Motives Matter?” It discussed the DeChristopher case. I reproduce it in its entirety and discuss it below.
Do Motives Matter? The DeChristopher Verdict
Tim DeChristopher hugged supporters as he left a courthouse in Salt Lake City after his conviction. Associated Press Photo
The American legal system tends to pay obsessive attention to a person’s motives and mental state. A hate crime, for example, only becomes a hate crime at all with motive. Premeditated offenses often get harsher treatment than impulsive acts of rage or passion. The capacity to understand right and wrong is a fundamental threshold of competency in a courtroom.
OK, let’s stop right there. Part of that is simply untrue. In addition, he is conflating motive, premeditation, mental competence, and intent.
The American legal system pays almost no attention to motive. The only crime I can think of in which a person’s motives make a difference is a “hate crime”. This is a recent addition to the law. But if you murder someone, or steal their wallet, your motive is meaningless. You might have stolen to impress your girlfriend. You might need the money to feed your kids. Doesn’t matter, the jury will never hear about your motive. The only question the jury ever considers is “did you do it”, not “why did you do it”.
While premeditation and mental competence and intent are certainly issues to which the law pays “obsessive attention”, they have nothing to do with motive. All they are doing in his essay is confusing the issue. In general the person’s motive for doing something whether a person had noble reasons for committing a crime is legally immaterial to the jury. If motive enters into the record at all, it is only and solely in the sentencing phase, after the person has been found guilty and the jury sent home. Thus the judge acted correctly in doing what Kirk Johnson describes in mildly accusatory accusatory undertones as:
But in the federal trial of Tim DeChristopher, who was convicted on Thursday in Salt Lake City on two felony charges for trying to derail an auction oil and gas leases in southern Utah in late 2008, discussion of motive – at least so far as the jury got to hear – was almost entirely stripped away.
Judge Dee Benson told the lawyers that the case would not be about why Mr. DeChristopher did what he did, but only whether he did it. Federal energy policies and concern about climate change, which were in fact the core drivers of Mr. DeChristopher’s actions, as he has said in many interviews, would not be put on trial, Judge Benson ruled.
And he properly ruled so. DeChristopher’s motives are not relevant to the jury’s deliberations.
Does it matter? In covering the case for The New York Times, I found myself pondering a pretty deep question: In assessing offenses driven by environmental concerns, is an understanding of the “why” crucial to the truth? Or is it a huge distraction because of the politics and complexity and controversy that swirl around the subject?
Is his motive “crucial to the truth” or a “huge distraction”? I would say neither. I would say that an understanding of his motive in the context of what is called “noble cause corruption” is useful in understanding the current sorry state of climate science. In either case his motive does not matter to the law, nor should it.
Would the jury have assessed things differently if the defendant’s deeper psychological portrait had emerged – specifically his belief that risks to the planet and the future are so dire and urgent that rules must be broken?
Or is the “rule of law,” as an assistant United States attorney, John W. Huber, put in it his closing argument, crucial to civil society — the linchpin of protecting everything we have, including and perhaps especially the environment?
I have no sympathy with this argument at all. Why on earth should I care about Mr. DeChristopher’s “deeper psychological portrait”? I don’t generally turn over rocks if I fear that there are strange things under them … I’m not interested in what lies under Mr. DeChristopher’s actions. I have enough problems with the creatures that live under my own skullcap, I have no interest in the unknown denizens of Mr. DeChristopher’s cranium.
Certainly, Mr. DeChristopher, a 29-year-old economics graduate, is no eco-terrorist. This was not an Earth Liberation Front firebombing; the closest he got to violence was raising his bidding paddle at the auction to buy land leases with money he didn’t have. But there was also little doubt, as he had also conceded in interviews, that he broke the law by signing federal forms while posing as a legitimate energy buyer, and then by bidding successfully for upward of $1.8 million in leases from the federal Bureau of Land Management.
Again, I’m not clear what the relevance of this is. He is not an eco-terrorist. He is also not a kidnapper or a child molester … so what? What does that have to do with his case? Is he saying we should have sympathy for him because he is a “white collar criminal”? Because I generally have less sympathy for that breed of crook, not more. I’ll take an honest bank robber over a bank accountant who steals the same amount of money, any time.
In a statement after the verdict, the United States attorney for Utah, Carlie Christensen, addressed part of this debate, one that will no doubt continue in Mr. DeChristopher’s probable appeal. “Whether the B.L.M. was correct in its decision to offer these parcels for oil and gas lease sales was not the question which this jury was asked to resolve,” Ms. Christensen said.
Nor should they be asked to resolve it. It is not a question for the jury.
Look, I have no problem with Mr. DeChristopher’s actions. As I mentioned, I did the same myself, and I did time for it. As we said then, if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime. However, I never heard the New York Times opining that the judge should have considered my motives in deciding my guilt or innocence. It didn’t matter. I was guilty. As is DeChristopher.
What I have a problem with is when this kind of thinking slops over into the scientific arena. You see, if a scientist thinks it is ethical to break the laws of civil society in the name of saving the planet, I have absolutely no confidence that the same man will not break the laws of honest, transparent, ethical science in the name of saving the planet. As we have seen, sadly, this more than a thoretical threat.
When this occurs in science, it is called “noble cause corruption”. It occurs when a scientist thinks that their cause (saving the world from Thermageddon) is so important and so noble that it transcends plebeian concerns. Their cause is much more critical and vital and important than, you know, mundane boring things like transparency, and scientific integrity, and archiving data that may not agree with your hypothesis, and revealing adverse results. For scientists like that, those are petty scientific concerns, things that only apply to people who are not engaged on a mission from Gaia.
This noble cause corruption, amply personified by Michael Mann, Phil Jones, Gene Wahl, Caspar Amman, Gavin Schmidt, James Hansen, Stephen Schneider, Lonnie Thompson, and far too many other leading lights of AGW orthodoxy, has been the root cause of the mistrust of the public in climate science.
And reasonably so. When the public sees top-notch, world-renowned climate scientists lying and cheating and breaking the rules and stuffing the peer-review panels and subverting the IPCC, what do you think will happen to the reputation of the field?
Judith Curry and others keep presenting this as a communications problem. It is not. The AGW folks think the problem is that they’re not getting the word out. So they’ve formed some kind of Guerrilla AGW Killer Rapid Response Ninja Suicide Death Commando Team to answer questions, at least I think that’s the name … guys, lack of AGW scientific opinion is not a problem as far as I can see, quite the opposite. We’ve heard your scientific claims of upcoming catastrophe proclaimed at full volume over and over. And over. And over. The problem is not that your message is not getting across. We hear it. It’s crystal clear, no problem with either the medium or the message. RST is five by five, as the ham radio operators have it.
But most folks simply don’t believe anything you say. You’ve lied to everyone before, you conned us in the past, people are determined it won’t happen again.
The problem is that a large number of the top names in the field have been shown to be, well, liars, cheats, and thieves. They were working hard, in secret, using deplorable, unethical, and likely illegal tactics to advance their noble cause and to protect their secrets and their data and methods.
Now, if that were all, it would be bad. But it is worse than that. If, when all that was revealed, the rest of the honest, decent climate scientists had stood up and pointed and said “For Shame!”, the breach in trust could have been repaired. If the miscreants were identified and disowned by the majority of climate scientists, there would have been problems, but not huge problems.
But that’s not what happened. When the Climategate rock was rolled over, and the UEA nest of scorpions was revealed and they started running from the sunlight, with few and notable exceptions the good, decent, honest climate scientists suddenly found something else really fascinating to talk about. About how it was just boys being boys. About how it was just scientists talking trash about each other in private. About how Climategate meant nothing. About how the use of “hacked” emails was unethical. The overwhelming majority of the good honest decent AGW supporters talked volubly about everything under the sun … everything except the putrid scientific rot Climategate revealed within the top ranks. Nor did they say a peep about a succession of ludicrous whitewash investigations apparently led by Inspector Clouseau of “Pink Panther” fame … silence and closing the ranks was the order of the day.
So as a result much of the general public in the US at least believes that all climate scientists are crooks. They’re not. They’re mostly just reasonable, curious scientists who tragically were unwilling to speak up for scientific honesty and integrity when history called on them to do so. And as the saying goes, for scorpions to succeed, all that is necessary is for good climate scientists to do nothing.
After all of that, anyone who thinks that what we have is a communications problem, or that it can be solved by better scientific explanations, or that it can be fixed by reframing the discussion, is seriously deluding themselves. Someday, good science will eventually win out. Not communication. Not reframing. Good science.
But until then, I can assure you that if a climate scientist says it’s raining outside, any reasonable person will surreptitiously glance out the window …
w.
[Update] There is an outstanding comment below:
Turn this around when thinking about the “profit motive” such that the “profit motive” were a valid legal defense. A really scary thought, that one is.
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Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says . . . .
Blah, blah, praise the Lord! blah, blah.
Sorry Cynthia, if you aren’t a troll pretending to be a skeptic; your sermon has little to do with the subject and everything to do with YOUR belief system, which you are trying to impose on everyone else here. Your truth may not be true at all, and the fact that you think it is doesn’t change that.
You nasty comment about paganism is also not appreciated by me. Religions don’t make people good; if virtue doesn’t come from within, then it doesn’t really exist. But some of the most noble teachings in history derive from the very pagans you apparently consider beneath you.
This is a science blog, not a pulpit for religion. The fact that post here at all seems dubious to me. After all, I don’t know many skeptics who quote from the bible. Blind religious credulity and thoughtful skepticism are not the same things.
Willis: “I don’t think Hansen is doing that deliberately … it’s what happens with noble cause corruption.”
It seems to me what you are accusing Hansen of is just confirmation bias if he is not doing it deliberately:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/corruption/#nobl
“…in cases of noble cause corruption — contra what the person who performs the action thinks — the ‘corrupt’ action morally ought not to be performed”
Mr. Eschenbach, “I and a number of other guest posters have written studies published in the peer-reviewed scientific journals. I have a paper in peer-review now with such a journal. Your claims are untrue. If you have a specific point to make, you haven’t made it.”
All of that is moot to the point I was making. In this article, instead of addressing any of the science, you choose to address the scientists. Unfounded accusations about those with whom you disagree is in conflict with recent advice of yours.
“If a man is going to rob me, I’d rather he do it with a pistol than a fountain pen.”
If a poor man puts a gun in your face that is Robbery. If a rich man takes your money without threat of violence it is theft.
You need to go to Wikipedia and look up robbery and the difference between robbery and theft.
They are not the same crime.
One involves the threat of violence the other is simply taking another person’s stuff.
“Joshua, I know the law makes a distinction between rich men’s crimes and the crimes of the poor.”
No this is not a distinction between rich and poor….it is a distinction between threat of harm and simply stealing things.
If a poor man burglarized your home it is a lesser crime them if he put a gun in your face and took your wallet.
Anton: Blind religious credulity and thoughtful skepticism are not the same things.
Indeed not. Anthony has asked us all to avoid religious controversies, and with good reason. Still, the Book has a great deal to say about motives, rules, laws and truth. All of which are intrinsic to any discussion of noble cause corruption. Don’t want to put words in the saint’s mouth, but I think Paul would agree with Willis’s position on this issue: And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their condemnation is deserved!
It is clear from the foregoing discussion that (a) motive is indeed relevant in American criminal jurisprudence, both in assessing guilt, and in determining punishment; and that (b) some motives should, or ought to be, dismissed or ignored, for a variety of reasons (irrelevant, fanciful, etc.). In the end it will inevitably depend on who’s ox is being gored whether the reason for the goring (or Al-goring) has any bearing. I think most here would tend to agree that the rule of law takes priority, even when the cause is noble (or ‘nobel’). The end may sometimes justify the means (e.g. lying or even killing to protect one’s family from tyrants), but then even if one may hope for mercy on noble grounds, one must be prepared to pay the price the law demands.
/Mr Lynn
Intent mattersfor obstruction of justice e.g. the leading case of US v Quattrone.
The judgment of the 2nd Circuit appeal ( see here) provides a readable summary of the facts and the law. A discussion of recent leading obstruction cases (including both Quattrone and Arthur Andersen) is here.
The offence is not strict liability; corrupt intent is an essential element for an offence to exist.
Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:
March 12, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Cynthia, I don’t exactly loathe your stream of consciousness. I do love your statement, that you like your stream of consciousness more than the alternative. It’s hardly surprising that you find the sound of your own voice so alluring and compelling. I find that to be common in religious SIFs.
However, I don’t like your stream of consciousness. Not only don’t I find it compelling, I find it intrusive and pushy and inappropriate that you want to shill for your own beliefs here. This is not atypical of Christians, many of whom (like you) seem to obey only the parts of the Bible that they like, and ignore things like Matthew 6 : 5-8
In other words … please “Be Blessed” someplace else, my dear, some place like … well, the bible suggests “your room” with the door closed and the internet off, that sounds like a good Biblical type location. Not WUWT. We’re already blessed here, you see, we don’t need your assistance.
w.
Well, it’s about time, Willis, that you stepped into a subject which I know something about.
I will leave be what the other posters have said here about their views of “motive” and “intent.” Many of them are right in their assessment of the role of motive in the criminal justice system. What is important is that the N.Y. Times is seriously wrong about certain aspects of this case.
What is known as “criminal intent” or “mens rea” is more about actions and circumstances coupled to a state of mind. If I fire a gun at random in the air, around and around, and I hit someone, it is pretty obvious that I am intending to shoot a gun. Whether I have committed a crime in that situation depends more on the total circumstances of the shooting as opposed to just what is actually in the mind of the shooter. If, for example, I stop whirling around at one point of my random shooting activity, pause, point my gun at one person briefly, and fire, thereby hitting the victim, it can make a big difference what kind of crime I may be charged with. The circumstances, coupled with evidence of a host of factors (where the shooter was, how many other people around, what happened when the shooting started, how the person was hit) more often determines whether a criminal act or criminal intent occurs, as opposed to state of mind. The state of mind of the shooter can be used to determine whether: (1) the person acted intentionally or with premeditation; (2) the person acted recklessly (i.e. he really was just playing shoot-em-up, wasn’t trying to hit somebody, but knew what the consequences of shooting around a bunch of people would be and didn’t really care too much); (3) the person acted with criminal negligence (which is a crime in Texas – criminally negligent homicide). This determines the degree of the crime committed. One must in most states, Texas included, allege and prove some form or degree of intent as a part of any criminal offense.
That is how intent and motive generally work. Motive also works, as some have already pointed out, in cases of highly circumstantial evidence of a crime, to corroborate certain behaviors that would be consistent with the commission of a crime.
What some folks often confuse is motive as an important element of any criminal offense with motive as a defense to a crime committed. Motive is seldom if ever a legitimate defense, except in homicide cases. Self-defense in homicide cases is the classic example of a “motive” that is the exception to this rule – but even that requires knowledge and proof of pertinent physical circumstances. Otherwise, the fact that one can claim to have a “good motive” for committing a crime is seldom relevant; in the case you write about it is highly irrelevant. That could have been the Pablo Escobar defense, of course, had he survived the Colombian authorities – he gave a lot of illicit drug money back to his community in the form of stadiums and other goodies. But the truth there is that it is irrelevant what he did with the drug money he received from the sale of illegal drugs. Because the sale of certain drugs has been defined as a criminal act by governments, due to the fact that there is a lot of other social harm caused by the sale and use of drugs that far outweighs the benefits of Pablo’s drug money. Defenses to a criminal act that a law is “bad or immoral policy” are equally irrelevant and equally fraudulent.
Steve Reynolds says:
March 12, 2011 at 7:15 pm
Thanks, Steven. The problem with noble cause corruption is that it expresses itself in a host of ways, from things like a strong confirmation bias or unconsciously selecting proxies to fit a preconception at one end of the spectrum, through to things like actively subverting the IPCC and deleting emails at the other end. There’s a host of other actions in between that may be the result of noble cause corruption.
w.
So, if I understand this correctly, when you did jail time for a peaceful sit-in against the Vietnam War in the ’60s you were suffering from “noble cause corruption”; that mass psychological phenomena among college enrolled baby boomers that ultimately led to the Cambodian Holocaust and the defeat of South Vietnam and all those millions of brown skinned oriental people having to flee communist nirvana on sinking boats? It is curious how the “draft” doesn’t count as “affirmative action” at Columbia, Stanford, Princeton, Yale, Harvard…Yeah, motives do matter. For the record, I volunteered for two tours in Vietnam, and got to enjoy some of that mighty fine military single payer health care; so, did you spend a safe weekend in jail pending arraignment or were you released with no future court date and dropped charges?
You should also call Gore’s “Inconvenient Truth” a Nobel lie.
How do you explain those who’ve “crossed the aisle” to this side from yours, then? (A question Naomi Klein might ask herself as well.)
Rather interesting. this young man convicted by the government for believing the “science” put forward by that same government. Does that make Hanson & Mann etel guilty of “insighting to riot”? pg
Another instance is habit of making alarmist predictions and then distancing himself from them when they don’t work out. I.e., his attempt to spin his 1988 prediction as unfalsified, and his burying of his 1980’s prediction about a flooded Manhattan by now.
Walt Ughes says: “To me the real question is not why some charlatans gamed the system for personal gain, it is why honest scientists that didn’t believe [still] stayed silent. They are almost more guilty than the liars.”
Some honest scientists did, and bore the consequences: vilification, threats, firing, demotion, inability to publish in (formerly) prestigious journals. Why didn’t the rest of them speak up? Maybe many did, and the MSM failed to publish their statements, and the journals refused their papers, and we never heard about it.
Not to detract from your sentiment, which I agree with, but motive and intent are quite important in trials. For instance, if you kill someone because you are worried about great bodily harm, that’s justifiable homicide. On the other hand, if you kill someone because you want their life insurance money, that is murder of some kind. That having been said, these ideas are codified in the law.
I’ve been in a debate with a very intelligent AGW person, who primarily focuses on the science. I think the science is not conclusive, but it would be really nice to have a pure bullet list of offenses by the people you list who have crossed the line. Phil Jones’ emails are pretty compelling, but it would also be good to have the pure list for Michael Mann. He seems to be a bit smarter than the others, more like a religious leader than a zealot.
@jorge : Do you have examples of retribution you describe above?
don says:
March 12, 2011 at 9:37 pm
Egad, sirrah, I hardly know where to begin. I see you have a strong belief that the Americans who didn’t believe in the Vietnam War and protested against it were the cause of the defeat of South Vietnam. Given your age, I’m sure you must have noticed that view of the causation of history is not universally shared.
It is not generally appreciated that when the Americans entered the Vietnam War, Ho Chi Minh was 61. He had been fighting to throw foreigners out of his country since he was fifteen. Over forty-five years, he had fought the Chinese. He had fought the Japanese as an ally of the US. He had fought the French. After decades of fighting, the Americans foolishly entered the fray. De Gaulle told Kennedy he was stupid to get into an Asian land war against Ho. He was ignored.
If I had to ascribe causation for North Vietnam willing the war, I’d say Ho had a hell of a lot more to do with that, than I and every other person who protested the war put together. He was an absolute demon on the subject of jerks coming from other countries and trying to tell Vietnamese how to run their own place. He wouldn’t stand it, and lots and lots of Vietnamese felt the same. Blaming the loss of the war on the American Peace movement ignores a host of other, much more important factors.
Haven’t a clue what the first sentence means. And yes, motives do matter … but noble motives don’t make a man innocent.
Not clear what your point is in that, don. I’m glad you volunteered for two tours in Vietnam. A longer version of what I did in that time is here. I make a comment there as follows:
=======================
A good buddy of mine in high school went to Canada to avoid the war. He lives there still.
Another good buddy volunteered. He said he wanted to go fight to make the world safe for democracy. Naw, just kidding. His actual words were that he wanted to “kill gooks”. He landed in Vietnam. After processing he was sent immediately out to a firefight. Fifteen minutes in, a bullet entered his stomach and exited his rectum. Dying on the ground, he heard a helicopter, but he could tell it wasn’t a medevac chopper. He gave up hope. The chopper landed anyhow and picked him up, took him direct to the Saigon Airport. He was flown to Tokyo and operated on. He lived. Less than a day in-country.
I have a friend who was a Lurp. He’s said little about what he did over there. From what he has said, I don’t want to know more. He is not proud of what he did. He’s lived alone since the war, doesn’t sleep well, and runs twenty miles a day.
I have a friend who got married and had a kid just to avoid the draft. The marriage fell apart. The kid was a wreck. He never was drafted.
I have other friends who are just names on the wall.
Did any of us group of friends, kids not far out of high school, make the ethical decision, the moral decision? What is the ethical and moral decision to make in an unethical, immoral war? I thought it was to tell them calmly to their faces that I couldn’t take their orders blindly, I had to make up my own mind … but then I got sucked back in, I didn’t have the spine or the will or something to hold to my principles. Was that ethical or moral? Should I be proud I tried and ashamed that I failed, or the other way around? What I know is that my failure left me profoundly depressed.
A friend of mine was a Captain in the Army who was going to be a lifer. He was stationed in Korea. He took leave to go to see what was happening in Vietnam because he was slated to be sent there. Having seen it, he resigned his commission so he would not have to participate in what he saw (and still sees) as the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time against the wrong people. The war cost him his career, but not his honor.
Another friend got out of the draft by walking around the draft board examination rooms, in and out of offices wearing only underwear with holes in them and singing
“Oh, the Bonneville Dam, it’s a sight to see,
makes that e-leka-tris-eye-tee.
E-leka, e-leka-tris-eye-tee,
makes that e-leka-tris-eye-tee”
at the top of his lungs over and over until they threw him out.
Was his singing more or less moral than being a Lurp in Vietnam and killing women and silently executing Viet-Cong farmers in their beds? None of us did right in that war, not the ones that fought, not the ones that refused to fight. There was a man in the nuthouse with me. All day long he crawled around on the floor, reaching for something. He never said a word. Whatever he was reaching for, it always eluded him. He could never grasp it. The Docs said he’d been in a foxhole with his buddy. Someone threw in a grenade. He went to grab it and throw it out of the foxhole. Before he could reach it, his buddy threw himself on top of it and was blown to shreds before his eyes.
He never recovered. They tried plugging him into the wall, but the war had blown him through time and space to his own private planet, a place of perpetual Sisyphean torment that apparently wasn’t wired for 240 volts, so they shipped him off to a VA hospital.
The Vietnam War wounded everyone it touched, at the end of the day those of us lucky enough to walk away from it walked away with blood on our hands, soldiers and civilians alike.
===================
So don, I make no judgement on the actions and choices of anyone who was touched by the war. I am not qualified to do that, nor is anyone I ever met. You did what you felt was right, as did I and others. As Bob Dylan commented,
Let it go at that, even the photos are faded, let the dead past bury its dead. We have new battles to fight now.
Thanks,
w.
Yeah the motive issue actually mitigates AGAINST innocence in our legal system. If you had a “good reason” to do what you did, that increases the likelihood that you are guilty, whereas if this idiot was just some sub-80 IQ chucklehead waving a paddle around, he would be deemed innnocent due to lack of mental capacity.
So, even if your cause is noble, the fact that you HAVE a cause to do what was done reduces the doubt on the part of the jury as to your innocence.
Now, if you dont like the LAW, then what you need to do is argue against the validity of the law and try to encourage a jury nullification of the case against you. Judges tend to hate that strategy even more, and most attorneys are loathe to engage in such a strategy out of fear that the judge will hold it against them in all future cases (for which there is ample justification, most judges oppose jury nullification, and I know people who have been arrested for contempt, OUTSIDE court houses for handing out jury nullification pamphlets.)
Johanna I cannot speak for the US legal system, but in the UK and Australian systems, motive may be very relevant to whether a person is convicted in certain cases. The classic example is where someone is charged with assault/manslaughter/murder and they plead self-defence. Self defence, if accepted, may result in acquittal even if the act undoubtedly occurred.
In the US, at least, whether the killer acted in self-defense is not a question of motive. He only acted in self-defense if his life was in imminent danger. For example, suppose I see you with a gun, and I believe that anyone carrying a gun puts my life in danger, so I kill you. That’s not self-defense. There may be an out for a killer who had good reason to believe that his life was in imminent danger, even though it was not, but that doesn’t depend on the question of motive, either.
I’ll be surprised if this is significantly different in the UK or Australia. It sounds to me like you misunderstand the concept of motive.
Willis,
While I respect that you think you were fighting for a noble cause in your anti-war protests, and you seem to think Ho Chi Minh was some sort of SE Asian George Washington, but I have to say that George Washington never sent millions of his own citizens to die in reeducation camps, he never ordered the torture and assassination of elected civillian officials, and he never killed anybody to prevent multi-candidate or multi-party elections. Reference data:
This is just one of many sources of data on the genocidal crimes of the Communist Vietnamese government, just for crimes on their own people. There were also hundreds of thousands killed in Laos and Cambodia by Vietnamese forces. Furthermore, a campaign of ethnic cleansing drove millions of people into the sea, the lucky ones on boats, the luckiest ones on boats that were sea worthy, becoming the largest “boat people” migration in history. The seas offshore of Vietnam are littered with the bones of millions of refugees from Ho Chi Minh and his successors.
I recognise tho, that, much like American Communists of the 30’s and 40’s and 50’s who had no idea about the tens of millions that Stalin was killing in his own genocidal purges, yet willingly sabotaged American national security, self righteousness purges all guilt.
Further references:
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/vietnam/hochiminh.html
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM
http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/239/2390710003A.pdf
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/vietnam/landreform.html
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/vietnam/boatpeople3.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215155233/http://www.laohumrights.org/laowht02.html
Like historian Michael Moyar, I consider Vietnam to be justified but improperly executed, although we won militarily, our military victory was betrayed by hamstringing rules of engagement and diplomatic betrayals, as well as the active participation of US mass media in the NVA propaganda machine (for instance, the TIME Magazine bureau chief in Saigon was a commissioned Colonel in NVA Intelligence, documented in his own autobiography, a fact that the publishers of TIME to this day refuse to admit).
Just because you think Ho Chi Minh was a great man to not tolerate foreigners in his country, his intolerance for many other things, including the opinions, rights, property, and existence of many of his own countrymen, delegitimizes him as a leader worthy of any respect.
Wow, Willis, that’s probably the best rant ever on Wattsup. Bookmark.
I want to say I can feel your pain, but I suspect I have but glimpse a tiny moment of it.
Mike Lorrey says:
March 13, 2011 at 12:40 am
You misunderstand me, clearly I was not clear. I do not like Ho or what he believed in. However, many of his countrymen do think that was a SE Asian George Washington. You’ll have to explain to them why they’re deluded.
My point was that he, and many other men and women like him, spent a lifetime fighting against and throwing foreign invaders out of Vietnam. They won the war because after 45 years of doing it, they had become expert in it. Ho and his friends beat the Chinese and drove them out of Vietnam. They beat the Japanese and drove them out of Vietnam. They beat the French and drove them out of Vietnam. And at the end, they beat the US. Vietnam is now, for the first time in a long, long time, free of foreign invaders.
So no, I’m no fan of Uncle Ho. He did many bad things, you’ve listed some of them above, there’s lots more you haven’t listed. My point was that the Vietnam War was not lost by the American peace movement. It was won by insanely patriotic Vietnamese, incredibly skilled and battle-hardened men and women who were willing to fight for independence from all foreign powers, not for a few years, not for a decade, but for decade after decade after decade. Ho ended up fighting for over fifty years, half a century, before finally succeeding in ridding his country of foreign overlords. What other country can say that their independence was bought so dearly, by such dedicated men? George Washington didn’t fight the British for 50 years … doesn’t make Ho and his friends good guys, you are right about that, but it does make him and Big Minh and the others legendary and ultimately invincible warriors.
People think we could have won “if only we’d been free to bomb Hanoi” or “if only we’d put more power in”. I say those people still don’t get it. They don’t understand what drove Ho and his friends through fifty years of everything that huge, powerful nations could throw against them. We could have, as some said, “Bombed North Vietnam back to the Stone Age”, and Ho and his guys would have hid in their insane underground rabbit-warren cities, and come out even more determined to kill us with stones if they had to. He had fought fifty years, and it was simple. He wasn’t going to stop. He wasn’t going to quit. He wasn’t going to negotiate away anything. He was going to win if he had to crawl on bloody hands and knees to do it. Against trucks and tanks and ships and jets, they won the war on bicycles. Bicycles! And if they hadn’t had bikes, they still would have won.
We stuck our head into a buzz-saw, and paid the price. And so did they. I said above that the Vietnam War wounded everyone it touched. The worst wounded, of course, were the Vietnamese themselves. It became a civil war to them, and they are always the most savage and self-destructive.
Finally, the list of Ho’s crimes is large and long. He was a harsh and brutal man, no question, fifty years of fighting tends to do that to you. However, My Lai and a host of other war crimes, reported and unreported, by ourselves and our South Vietnamese allies, should remind us that our own hands were far from clean … no one walked away unscarred.
w.
Willis,
Yes, Ho and his people definitely were fanatical, but so were the generals of the Tojo government in Japan during WWII, of them all, only Yamomoto had a rational appreciation of the capacity of the US to wage total war, and he died relatively early. The Bushido Code that the militarists were infused with from youth, as well as a common and enduring, if somewhat contradictory, national mythology of racial supremacy coupled with a deep sense of national insult about how the West dealt with Japan, like they dealt with China and the Indo-china countries, created a sense of fanaticism and martial discipline at least as extreme as that among the Vietminh.
The NVA were not superior soldiers by any means. They never won a battle in which they were evenly matched, and frequently lost battles in which they outnumbered their opponents. They refused to respect the Laws of War, torturing and butchering captured prisoners, both US and ARVN. The few abuses, like those of My Lai, were a response, as unfortunate as they were, to the barbarity of the NVA and VC, policies of barbarity that were intentionally engaged in as a matter of policy according to Marxist revolutionary theory, that dictated that it was necessary to force the enemy to commit atrocities out of desperation in response to the brutality of the insurgent forces, so that the enemy’s brutality would be publicized by “fellow travellers” and “useful idiots” in the press.
It remains a common shibboleth in the western left that Ho was some sort of patriot when in fact his first loyalty was to communism, not to the Vietnamese people, and that wasn’t a late development, but dated back to the beginnings of his fighting against Nationalist Chinese, Imperial Japan, and against French colonialists. He was not a supreme fighter, he was as brutal a butcher as Che Guevara and Pol Pot.
I’m a military veteran. I, and many other veterans, consider it a grave insult when people who don’t know what they are talking about try to claim that Ho and his commissars were some sort of gallant patriots for the cause of Vietnam or fought as warriors. They did not behave as warriors. It’s common to hear, though, just as it was common even during WWII to see OSS agents and the US state department to regard Mao as a mere “land reformer” who should be supported as some sort of Chinese FDR. These were common delusions that college students were taught by their leftist professors or by trotskyist parents.
The only distinction, really, between the governments of Tojo and Ho was that Tojo was seen in the western intelligentsia as a right wing government, therefore inherently wrong, justifying total opposition and the worst sort of racism in the media, and Ho was a left wing government, thus inherently right by their marxist leanings, and thus justifying apologia, subversion of democracy, and sabotage of the american war effort.
This is common to see, like today, the government of Mubarak was seen as right wing and thus illegitimate by the western media and the Obama white house, worthy of being overthrown, while Gaddaffi’s government is leftist, so Obama has gone limp on the opposition National Council, and his National Security Czar has testified before congress already stating that Gaddaffi will win the fight.