Researchers Crack the Mystery of the Missing Sunspots
March 2, 2011: In 2008-2009, sunspots almost completely disappeared for two years. Solar activity dropped to hundred-year lows; Earth’s upper atmosphere cooled and collapsed; the sun’s magnetic field weakened, allowing cosmic rays to penetrate the Solar System in record numbers. It was a big event, and solar physicists openly wondered, where have all the sunspots gone?
Now they know. An answer is being published in the March 3rd edition of Nature.
In this artistic cutaway view of the sun, the Great Conveyor Belt appears as a set of black loops connecting the stellar surface to the interior. Credit: Andrés Muñoz-Jaramillo of the Harvard CfA
“Plasma currents deep inside the sun interfered with the formation of sunspots and prolonged solar minimum,” says lead author Dibyendu Nandi of the Indian Institute of Science Education and Research in Kolkata. “Our conclusions are based on a new computer model of the sun’s interior.”
For years, solar physicists have recognized the importance of the sun’s “Great Conveyor Belt.” A vast system of plasma currents called ‘meridional flows’ (akin to ocean currents on Earth) travel along the sun’s surface, plunge inward around the poles, and pop up again near the sun’s equator. These looping currents play a key role in the 11-year solar cycle. When sunspots begin to decay, surface currents sweep up their magnetic remains and pull them down inside the star; 300,000 km below the surface, the sun’s magnetic dynamo amplifies the decaying magnetic fields. Re-animated sunspots become buoyant and bob up to the surface like a cork in water—voila! A new solar cycle is born.
For the first time, Nandi’s team believes they have developed a computer model that gets the physics right for all three aspects of this process–the magnetic dynamo, the conveyor belt, and the buoyant evolution of sunspot magnetic fields.
OK. Plenty of belief here, but does it have predictive power?
“According to our model, the trouble with sunspots actually began in back in the late 1990s during the upswing of Solar Cycle 23,” says co-author Andrés Muñoz-Jaramillo of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. “At that time, the conveyor belt sped up.”
Sunspot cycles over the last century. The blue curve shows the cyclic variation in the number of sunspots. Red bars show the cumulative number of sunspot-less days. The minimum of sunspot cycle 23 was the longest in the space age with the largest number of spotless days. Credit: Dibyendu Nandi et al.
The fast-moving belt rapidly dragged sunspot corpses down to sun’s inner dynamo for amplification. At first glance, this might seem to boost sunspot production, but no. When the remains of old sunspots reached the dynamo, they rode the belt through the amplification zone too hastily for full re-animation. Sunspot production was stunted.
Later, in the 2000s, according to the model, the Conveyor Belt slowed down again, allowing magnetic fields to spend more time in the amplification zone, but the damage was already done. New sunspots were in short supply. Adding insult to injury, the slow moving belt did little to assist re-animated sunspots on their journey back to the surface, delaying the onset of Solar Cycle 24.
“The stage was set for the deepest solar minimum in a century,” says co-author Petrus Martens of the Montana State University Department of Physics.
OK. Plenty of belief. Does it have predictive power?
Colleagues and supporters of the team are calling the new model a significant advance.
“Understanding and predicting solar minimum is something we’ve never been able to do before—and it turns out to be very important,” says Lika Guhathakurta of NASA’s Heliophysics Division in Washington, DC.
OK. Colleagues think its wonderful. But…
Nandi notes that their new computer model explained not only the absence of sunspots but also the sun’s weakened magnetic field in 08-09. “It’s confirmation that we’re on the right track.”
I’m pleased for you. Now about the future…
Next step: NASA’s Solar Dynamics Observatory (SDO) can measure the motions of the sun’s conveyor belt—not just on the surface but deep inside, too. The technique is called helioseismology; it reveals the sun’s interior in much the same way that an ultrasound works on a pregnant woman. By plugging SDO’s high-quality data into the computer model, the researchers might be able to predict how future solar minima will unfold. SDO is just getting started, however, so forecasts will have to wait.
Indeed, much work remains to be done, but, says Guhathakurta, “finally, we may be cracking the mystery of the spotless sun.”
I worry about this sort of science (or at least, this sort of scientific publishing). They claim they can explain the past, but they have no idea if their model has any predictive power.
Before the last solar minimum there were plenty of different models that all explained the past but had zero predictive power about the solar minimum. Has this salutary experience been forgotten already at NASA? I’m sure David Hathaway could tell them all about it.
I was going to title this post “NASA suffers from premature exultation” but I thought better of it. This team could be right, but frankly there’s no way to know unless they can make a reasonable forecast.
All of which puts all of this at slightly above the level of reading tea-leaves. But its in Nature, so it’s like hitting a home run in the World Series of science. That’s the important part, clearly.
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Pascvaks
March 4, 2011 6:30 am
“All of which puts all of this at slightly above the level of reading tea-leaves. But its in Nature, so it’s like hitting a home run in the World Series of science. That’s the important part, clearly.” (JohnA)
Tea-Leaves it is. Home Run it ain’t. Important ’tis not, NATURE is a worn out public soapbox.
The “scientists” familiar with the study know its limitations better than anyone. The “politicians” hyping the study know it only adds a very small amount of fuel the fire, but what else can they do, oil is so expensive these days, and people have burned camel, buffalo, and cow chips for millions of years.
“Our conclusions are based on a new computer model of the sun’s interior.”
/Facepalm
Computer models shouldn’t be a basis for conclusions. They should be a way to test the mechanism of a theorized system to compare with future data.
Making a conclusion based on a computer model is just navel gazing.
DesertYote
March 4, 2011 8:14 am
John Whitman
March 3, 2011 at 11:30 pm
Thanks John, I was really not commenting on the science, but the language. This NASA press release bears the marks of being written by professional propagandists, e.g. instead of the LIA, they use the phrase “Europe’s LIA”. This is not an accident. You will find example of the careful choice of phrases to invoke a “message supporting” image or impression that is separate from what is being said in all NASA PR that has any impact on the CAGW story.
Malaga View
March 4, 2011 10:24 am
Leif Svalgaard says: March 4, 2011 at 5:49 am Every complicated question has a simple answer which is wrong.
Except
1) when the simple answer is correct…
2) when the complicated question is the wrong question…
Malaga View
March 4, 2011 10:38 am
Leif Svalgaard: It is like the two little boys discussing where babies come from;
NASA Science: the same way that an ultrasound works on a pregnant woman
Hey Guys! I know spring is coming and all that… but can we try to raise the tone of the conversation a little. I know being Galactic Gatekeepers is really tough work for real men… and, if it helps, you can call me old fashioned… but in my book real men don’t talk down to little people…. and real scientists don’t act like Galactic Gatekeepers.
Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:24 am 1) when the simple answer is correct…
2) when the complicated question is the wrong question…
It would seem hard to have a correct answer to the wrong question…
Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:38 am but can we try to raise the tone of the conversation a little.
It is hard to judge the correct level, but the previous posts might give a clue as to what the going tone is: NASA – Nebulous Astronomy with Stupidity and Arrogance…
how can seemingly intelligent people be so dumb?…
In the new age nobody knows what they are doing….
Malaga View
March 4, 2011 10:56 am
Leif Svalgaard says: It would seem hard to have a correct answer to the wrong question…
Its very easy to ask the wrong question… many people deliberately ask wrong questions… many people deliberately make things complicated… many people deliberately try to confuse and divert… but the answer will be correct if you ask the right question… and that same answer is still correct even if you deliberately ask the wrong question.
Malaga View
March 4, 2011 11:05 am
Its sad when so much Science has descended into Sophistry… Sophistry just promotes cynicism and scepticism…
Pascvaks
March 4, 2011 11:44 am
Ref – Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:05 am
“Its sad when so much Science has descended into Sophistry…
Sophistry just promotes cynicism and scepticism…”
And versa vicea. It’s a mobius strip.
It’s especially noticeable when “scientists” dabble in politics.
Once they’re on the strip it just goes on and on and on.
Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:56 am many people deliberately ask wrong questions…
many people deliberately make things complicated…
many people deliberately try to confuse and divert…
you deliberately ask the wrong question.
How about that tone of conversation?
There is a proverb in Danish: “a thief thinks everybody steals”. Sophistry just promotes cynicism and scepticism…
Skepticism is not so bad..
tallbloke says:
March 3, 2011 at 2:15 pm
Jim Imboden says:
March 3, 2011 at 1:02 pm (Edit)
Vukcevic says: “Dr. Hathaway must be pulling his beard out in a rage too”
Hathaway has a comment on the Nature site, actually it was Hathaway that said their model is in conflict with observations. If you read his comment you will see that he doesn’t agree with their model at all.
Leif can’t be pleased about his shallow dynamo theory getting the cold shoulder either.
Seems there might be more than one way to read the SDO data tealeaves.
What say you Leif? Is this a final throw of the dice for the deep dynamo-hummers?
###############
what exactly is the POINT of personalizing this by trying to figure out whether Dr. S is pleased or not? From what I know of Dr. S he seems the kind of person who is interested in understanding things. He’s published his views and you can bet that he will welcome the day when they are proved right or wrong.
The other thing that is troubling is the tenor of many comments here. A couple months ago we had dinner with Anthony and he asked us ( smokey, CTM, willis, Fuller, and me) what we could do to make WUWT a better place. I think its fair to say that we all agreed that certain types of comments drive AWAY good discussion.
If you mention the word “model” a chorus of the same voices will cry out “Models, we cant trust models” well, vuc has a model. rog, you have a model. understanding things and predicting things means YOU BUILD A MODEL. A description in MATH of what happened and what will happen. Those models can be statistical, phenomenalogical or physical. The math can be simple and run on a computer called a calculator or complex and run on a bigger computer.
steven mosher says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:28 pm what exactly is the POINT of personalizing this by trying to figure out whether Dr. S is pleased or not?
It is clearly easier [and somewhat demeaning of the perpetrators] to engage in personal attacks than in the science. Better filtering of such is one way you could improve WUWT.
tallbloke
March 4, 2011 1:53 pm
steven mosher says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:28 pm
If you mention the word “model” a chorus of the same voices will cry out “Models, we cant trust models” well, vuc has a model. rog, you have a model. understanding things and predicting things means YOU BUILD A MODEL. A description in MATH of what happened and what will happen. Those models can be statistical, phenomenalogical or physical. The math can be simple and run on a computer called a calculator or complex and run on a bigger computer.
This is true, I have built mathematical models and models are not bad things per se.
People are distrustful of models because a group inside mainstream climate science has gone too far in trying to convince us that their model is sufficiently representative of reality that they can dismiss other hypotheses concerning climate change and tell us our future on the strength of them.
Some solar scientists have also been guilty of over-investing in the strength of their models and have tried to bend reality to fit their models, as Dr Hathaway has pointed out. Hence my comment. I don’t think I was making it particularly personal. Just speaking as I find from reading between the lines of the solar science paper abstracts I get by email.
I’ve just seen this new item at the top of the site posted by Anthony:
“Bubbleheaded Barking Mad Met Office Modelers”
Mixed messages?
tallbloke
March 4, 2011 1:57 pm
Leif Svalgaard says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:52 pm
It is clearly easier [and somewhat demeaning of the perpetrators] to engage in personal attacks than in the science.
Well it’s marvellous news that Leif has come to this conclusion. I shall look forward to interesting and insult free scientific discussion with him from now on. I’m sure Vuk will too.
Malaga View
March 4, 2011 1:57 pm
@ur momisugly tallbloke
Looks like your last comment has just been accidented… shame… this NASA press release is a bellyful of laughs… but I think they will be more concerned if you stick around… don’t give them an extra free pass… they already have ones from the government and the main stream media… they really don’t deserve any more.
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:57 pm Well it’s marvellous news that Leif has come to this conclusion. I shall look forward to interesting and insult free scientific discussion with him from now on.
You always get that, to wit:
Leif Svalgaard says:
March 4, 2011 at 5:49 am
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:02 am
Leif. Can you point me to your research and theory on the shallow dynamo?
I don’t really have a dog in that race. My point is that the ‘turn-around’ time for the cycles must be short [a few years only] for the polar fields to be a predictor of the next cycle [which they seem empirically to be]. Dikpati’s deep conveyor belt model has a turn-around time of some 40 years [count the dots on the right-hand figure on slide 5 of http://www.leif.org/research/Predicting%20the%20Solar%20Cycle%20(SORCE%202010).pdf ] which is much longer than half a cycle. Now, her model is controlled by ‘advection’, i.e. the magnetic field is dragged along by the plasma and does not diffuse across the flow. If you assume a much higher diffusion efficiency [BTW, we don’t KNOW what it is], then the field could reach the bottom of the convection zone [left-hand figure] in a much shorter time [say, a few years] and the correlation between polar fields and [next] cycle size would make sense, even with a deep dynamo. Alternatively a shallow dynamo [e.g. as explored by Schatten or originally proposed by Babcock and Leighton] might also explain the short turn-around. We don’t know which is correct, if any. The problem with a shallow dynamo is that the overturn time for the convection zone is only of the order of weeks or months [not many years], so what keeps the magnetic field down there long enough for the dynamo amplification to work? [we don’t know]. The deep dynamo crowd gets past that problem by placing the generation region just below the convection zone in the stable radiative interior.
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:57 pm “It is clearly easier [and somewhat demeaning of the perpetrators] to engage in personal attacks than in the science.”
Well it’s marvellous news that Leif has come to this conclusion. I shall look forward to interesting and insult free scientific discussion with him from now on. I’m sure Vuk will too.
But that also means that you have to do the harder of the two. If you do, the discussions will, indeed, be better. We shall see.
Malaga View
March 4, 2011 2:22 pm
Leif Svalgaard says: There is a proverb in Danish: “a thief thinks everybody steals”.
“Thanks John, I was really not commenting on the science, but the language. This NASA press release bears the marks of being written by professional propagandists, e.g. instead of the LIA, they use the phrase “Europe’s LIA”. This is not an accident. You will find example of the careful choice of phrases to invoke a “message supporting” image or impression that is separate from what is being said in all NASA PR that has any impact on the CAGW story.”
– – – – – –
DesertYote,
Yes, I understand the thrust of your original comment was the way NASA might be viewed as minimizing the global nature of the LIA by saying Europe in reference to the LIA. It was a good point. Thanks.
But, because the NASA quote you referenced put the MM and LIA in play then your comment gave me an opportunity interject about the lack of evidence that the MM caused the LIA. There seem to be many commenters and blog posts ( for example by Archibald) that imply there is correlation between events like the MM and LIA, so they consequently imply solar minimums like the MM might be the cause of events like the LIA.
Thanks for your reply.
John
Late in the debate here, but at least one mod will see it. I like the site, and I like the level of moderation. The notion of watching and noting what stifles, and editing it out, is a good idea, but I suspect a little goes a long way, and too much of a good thing, isn’t.
Anyway, to models, models are great, if they are checked. As automotive engineers, and mechanical designers in general know and benefit from good models day in and day out. A good crash model goes a long way. Finite element stress modeling is invaluable, but these models are rather solidly based, and extremely well checked against equivalent real tests. Impact modeling was still hard last I knew, but they have figured it well in automotive crash simulation. One designs the structure in the test software and then runs the crash simulation. Tweak the design and crash it again. This takes many hours of one or a few engineers, but no cars have to be built and destroyed. The design eventually approaches the intended criteria, and then the real-world testing begins. They build the real car based on the model-optimized design and prove to a high confidence level that the model worked. The car crashes as expected, and the passengers are as safe as can be hoped for. Still, these models are tested and retested, and the mathematics of the mesh and the materials and other physical parameters are checked against theory, real test data, and empirical correlation over and over. Such does not happen with climate models.
Models are good if they are verified, and independently verifiable.
John Whitman
March 4, 2011 9:00 pm
tallbloke says:
March 3, 2011 at 2:15 pm
steven mosher says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:28 pm
Leif Svalgaard says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:52 pm
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:53 pm
– – – – – –
tallbloke/mosher/leif,
Personalization is OK when used in the context of cordiality of blog colleagues or just blog acquaintances; a nice thing. When a blog relationship has a history of vehement disagreement then any injection of personalization is usually taken negatively by the parties involved. I think that vehemently disagreeing commenters poking each other in light humorous ways is OK and great entertainment. I suggest they keep it at that level.
I think we need to remember that all commenters have personalities that are reflected in their communication styles. A highly personalized style of commenting may be viewed by some as a negative, but it may not be anything but personality. Be careful, style accompanies content. To me the styles of some of the vehement protagonists on WUWT are very endearing . . . . like very dear old friends. I would sorely miss them if they disappeared.
Regarding models, attack the model not the modeler? OK. Models are fair game!
John
tallbloke
March 5, 2011 12:08 am
Leif Svalgaard says:
March 4, 2011 at 2:08 pm
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:57 pm
“It is clearly easier [and somewhat demeaning of the perpetrators] to engage in personal attacks than in the science.”
Well it’s marvellous news that Leif has come to this conclusion. I shall look forward to interesting and insult free scientific discussion with him from now on. I’m sure Vuk will too.
But that also means that you have to do the harder of the two. If you do, the discussions will, indeed, be better. We shall see.
Hi Leif, I can see what you are driving at here, but if you think you have the right to restrict the discussion of the Sun and its changing activity to one version of the Babcock-Leighton theory or another and define other hypotheses as ‘unscientific’ then we will be doing more disagreeing, hopefully politely, or at least with humorous digs rather than seriously rancorous ones.
NASA scientists Wolff and Patrone, and Ching Cheh Hung among other predecessors such as Paul Hose, Rhodes Fairbridge and Ivanka Charvatova have put the planetary-solar hypothesis into the literature, and there is legitimate discussion to be had regarding the possible consequences of their findings.
I believe the correct answer will be found in the fusion and integration of both the dynamo theory and the planetary-solar hypotheses. Something causes those meridional flow rates to change, and I doubt the Sun is doing it all by itself. The Wolff-Patrone mechanism posits changing amounts of energy release from overturning convective cells which relate to the motion of the Sun relative to the centre of mass of the solar system. If your hints regarding the depth of the return subsurface flows are correct, their model will need refining and testing further against observation.
In my opinion, it’s about time the solar science community spent a comparatively small amount of money funding research into working out how the solar inertial motion is affecting those flow rates, alongside their efforts to successfully model the magnetic fields and sunspot production.
Let’s all do the science together, while we argue over the details.
“All of which puts all of this at slightly above the level of reading tea-leaves. But its in Nature, so it’s like hitting a home run in the World Series of science. That’s the important part, clearly.” (JohnA)
Tea-Leaves it is. Home Run it ain’t. Important ’tis not, NATURE is a worn out public soapbox.
The “scientists” familiar with the study know its limitations better than anyone. The “politicians” hyping the study know it only adds a very small amount of fuel the fire, but what else can they do, oil is so expensive these days, and people have burned camel, buffalo, and cow chips for millions of years.
“Our conclusions are based on a new computer model of the sun’s interior.”
/Facepalm
Computer models shouldn’t be a basis for conclusions. They should be a way to test the mechanism of a theorized system to compare with future data.
Making a conclusion based on a computer model is just navel gazing.
John Whitman
March 3, 2011 at 11:30 pm
Thanks John, I was really not commenting on the science, but the language. This NASA press release bears the marks of being written by professional propagandists, e.g. instead of the LIA, they use the phrase “Europe’s LIA”. This is not an accident. You will find example of the careful choice of phrases to invoke a “message supporting” image or impression that is separate from what is being said in all NASA PR that has any impact on the CAGW story.
Leif Svalgaard says: March 4, 2011 at 5:49 am
Every complicated question has a simple answer which is wrong.
Except
1) when the simple answer is correct…
2) when the complicated question is the wrong question…
Leif Svalgaard: It is like the two little boys discussing where babies come from;
NASA Science: the same way that an ultrasound works on a pregnant woman
Hey Guys! I know spring is coming and all that… but can we try to raise the tone of the conversation a little. I know being Galactic Gatekeepers is really tough work for real men… and, if it helps, you can call me old fashioned… but in my book real men don’t talk down to little people…. and real scientists don’t act like Galactic Gatekeepers.
Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:24 am
1) when the simple answer is correct…
2) when the complicated question is the wrong question…
It would seem hard to have a correct answer to the wrong question…
Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:38 am
but can we try to raise the tone of the conversation a little.
It is hard to judge the correct level, but the previous posts might give a clue as to what the going tone is:
NASA – Nebulous Astronomy with Stupidity and Arrogance…
how can seemingly intelligent people be so dumb?…
In the new age nobody knows what they are doing….
Leif Svalgaard says:
It would seem hard to have a correct answer to the wrong question…
Its very easy to ask the wrong question… many people deliberately ask wrong questions… many people deliberately make things complicated… many people deliberately try to confuse and divert… but the answer will be correct if you ask the right question… and that same answer is still correct even if you deliberately ask the wrong question.
Its sad when so much Science has descended into Sophistry…
Sophistry just promotes cynicism and scepticism…
Ref – Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:05 am
“Its sad when so much Science has descended into Sophistry…
Sophistry just promotes cynicism and scepticism…”
And versa vicea. It’s a mobius strip.
It’s especially noticeable when “scientists” dabble in politics.
Once they’re on the strip it just goes on and on and on.
Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:56 am
many people deliberately ask wrong questions…
many people deliberately make things complicated…
many people deliberately try to confuse and divert…
you deliberately ask the wrong question.
How about that tone of conversation?
There is a proverb in Danish: “a thief thinks everybody steals”.
Sophistry just promotes cynicism and scepticism…
Skepticism is not so bad..
tallbloke says:
March 3, 2011 at 2:15 pm
Jim Imboden says:
March 3, 2011 at 1:02 pm (Edit)
Vukcevic says: “Dr. Hathaway must be pulling his beard out in a rage too”
Hathaway has a comment on the Nature site, actually it was Hathaway that said their model is in conflict with observations. If you read his comment you will see that he doesn’t agree with their model at all.
Leif can’t be pleased about his shallow dynamo theory getting the cold shoulder either.
Seems there might be more than one way to read the SDO data tealeaves.
What say you Leif? Is this a final throw of the dice for the deep dynamo-hummers?
###############
what exactly is the POINT of personalizing this by trying to figure out whether Dr. S is pleased or not? From what I know of Dr. S he seems the kind of person who is interested in understanding things. He’s published his views and you can bet that he will welcome the day when they are proved right or wrong.
The other thing that is troubling is the tenor of many comments here. A couple months ago we had dinner with Anthony and he asked us ( smokey, CTM, willis, Fuller, and me) what we could do to make WUWT a better place. I think its fair to say that we all agreed that certain types of comments drive AWAY good discussion.
If you mention the word “model” a chorus of the same voices will cry out “Models, we cant trust models” well, vuc has a model. rog, you have a model. understanding things and predicting things means YOU BUILD A MODEL. A description in MATH of what happened and what will happen. Those models can be statistical, phenomenalogical or physical. The math can be simple and run on a computer called a calculator or complex and run on a bigger computer.
steven mosher says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:28 pm
what exactly is the POINT of personalizing this by trying to figure out whether Dr. S is pleased or not?
It is clearly easier [and somewhat demeaning of the perpetrators] to engage in personal attacks than in the science. Better filtering of such is one way you could improve WUWT.
steven mosher says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:28 pm
If you mention the word “model” a chorus of the same voices will cry out “Models, we cant trust models” well, vuc has a model. rog, you have a model. understanding things and predicting things means YOU BUILD A MODEL. A description in MATH of what happened and what will happen. Those models can be statistical, phenomenalogical or physical. The math can be simple and run on a computer called a calculator or complex and run on a bigger computer.
This is true, I have built mathematical models and models are not bad things per se.
People are distrustful of models because a group inside mainstream climate science has gone too far in trying to convince us that their model is sufficiently representative of reality that they can dismiss other hypotheses concerning climate change and tell us our future on the strength of them.
Some solar scientists have also been guilty of over-investing in the strength of their models and have tried to bend reality to fit their models, as Dr Hathaway has pointed out. Hence my comment. I don’t think I was making it particularly personal. Just speaking as I find from reading between the lines of the solar science paper abstracts I get by email.
I’ve just seen this new item at the top of the site posted by Anthony:
“Bubbleheaded Barking Mad Met Office Modelers”
Mixed messages?
Leif Svalgaard says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:52 pm
It is clearly easier [and somewhat demeaning of the perpetrators] to engage in personal attacks than in the science.
Well it’s marvellous news that Leif has come to this conclusion. I shall look forward to interesting and insult free scientific discussion with him from now on. I’m sure Vuk will too.
@ur momisugly tallbloke
Looks like your last comment has just been accidented… shame… this NASA press release is a bellyful of laughs… but I think they will be more concerned if you stick around… don’t give them an extra free pass… they already have ones from the government and the main stream media… they really don’t deserve any more.
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Well it’s marvellous news that Leif has come to this conclusion. I shall look forward to interesting and insult free scientific discussion with him from now on.
You always get that, to wit:
Leif Svalgaard says:
March 4, 2011 at 5:49 am
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:02 am
Leif. Can you point me to your research and theory on the shallow dynamo?
I don’t really have a dog in that race. My point is that the ‘turn-around’ time for the cycles must be short [a few years only] for the polar fields to be a predictor of the next cycle [which they seem empirically to be]. Dikpati’s deep conveyor belt model has a turn-around time of some 40 years [count the dots on the right-hand figure on slide 5 of http://www.leif.org/research/Predicting%20the%20Solar%20Cycle%20(SORCE%202010).pdf ] which is much longer than half a cycle. Now, her model is controlled by ‘advection’, i.e. the magnetic field is dragged along by the plasma and does not diffuse across the flow. If you assume a much higher diffusion efficiency [BTW, we don’t KNOW what it is], then the field could reach the bottom of the convection zone [left-hand figure] in a much shorter time [say, a few years] and the correlation between polar fields and [next] cycle size would make sense, even with a deep dynamo. Alternatively a shallow dynamo [e.g. as explored by Schatten or originally proposed by Babcock and Leighton] might also explain the short turn-around. We don’t know which is correct, if any. The problem with a shallow dynamo is that the overturn time for the convection zone is only of the order of weeks or months [not many years], so what keeps the magnetic field down there long enough for the dynamo amplification to work? [we don’t know]. The deep dynamo crowd gets past that problem by placing the generation region just below the convection zone in the stable radiative interior.
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:57 pm
“It is clearly easier [and somewhat demeaning of the perpetrators] to engage in personal attacks than in the science.”
Well it’s marvellous news that Leif has come to this conclusion. I shall look forward to interesting and insult free scientific discussion with him from now on. I’m sure Vuk will too.
But that also means that you have to do the harder of the two. If you do, the discussions will, indeed, be better. We shall see.
Leif Svalgaard says:
There is a proverb in Danish: “a thief thinks everybody steals”.
CLASSIC… QED.
Malaga View says:
March 4, 2011 at 2:22 pm
“There is a proverb in Danish: “a thief thinks everybody steals””
CLASSIC… QED.
I thought so too.
I think I see the problem. The conveyor belt is oscillating wildly during this sunspot cycle.
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/2010_03_15/Hathway+Rightmire_2010_Fig4.jpg
You’re welcome, NASA. Zeke
DesertYote says:
March 4, 2011 at 8:14 am
“Thanks John, I was really not commenting on the science, but the language. This NASA press release bears the marks of being written by professional propagandists, e.g. instead of the LIA, they use the phrase “Europe’s LIA”. This is not an accident. You will find example of the careful choice of phrases to invoke a “message supporting” image or impression that is separate from what is being said in all NASA PR that has any impact on the CAGW story.”
– – – – – –
DesertYote,
Yes, I understand the thrust of your original comment was the way NASA might be viewed as minimizing the global nature of the LIA by saying Europe in reference to the LIA. It was a good point. Thanks.
But, because the NASA quote you referenced put the MM and LIA in play then your comment gave me an opportunity interject about the lack of evidence that the MM caused the LIA. There seem to be many commenters and blog posts ( for example by Archibald) that imply there is correlation between events like the MM and LIA, so they consequently imply solar minimums like the MM might be the cause of events like the LIA.
Thanks for your reply.
John
Late in the debate here, but at least one mod will see it. I like the site, and I like the level of moderation. The notion of watching and noting what stifles, and editing it out, is a good idea, but I suspect a little goes a long way, and too much of a good thing, isn’t.
Anyway, to models, models are great, if they are checked. As automotive engineers, and mechanical designers in general know and benefit from good models day in and day out. A good crash model goes a long way. Finite element stress modeling is invaluable, but these models are rather solidly based, and extremely well checked against equivalent real tests. Impact modeling was still hard last I knew, but they have figured it well in automotive crash simulation. One designs the structure in the test software and then runs the crash simulation. Tweak the design and crash it again. This takes many hours of one or a few engineers, but no cars have to be built and destroyed. The design eventually approaches the intended criteria, and then the real-world testing begins. They build the real car based on the model-optimized design and prove to a high confidence level that the model worked. The car crashes as expected, and the passengers are as safe as can be hoped for. Still, these models are tested and retested, and the mathematics of the mesh and the materials and other physical parameters are checked against theory, real test data, and empirical correlation over and over. Such does not happen with climate models.
Models are good if they are verified, and independently verifiable.
– – – – – –
tallbloke/mosher/leif,
Personalization is OK when used in the context of cordiality of blog colleagues or just blog acquaintances; a nice thing. When a blog relationship has a history of vehement disagreement then any injection of personalization is usually taken negatively by the parties involved. I think that vehemently disagreeing commenters poking each other in light humorous ways is OK and great entertainment. I suggest they keep it at that level.
I think we need to remember that all commenters have personalities that are reflected in their communication styles. A highly personalized style of commenting may be viewed by some as a negative, but it may not be anything but personality. Be careful, style accompanies content. To me the styles of some of the vehement protagonists on WUWT are very endearing . . . . like very dear old friends. I would sorely miss them if they disappeared.
Regarding models, attack the model not the modeler? OK. Models are fair game!
John
Leif Svalgaard says:
March 4, 2011 at 2:08 pm
tallbloke says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:57 pm
“It is clearly easier [and somewhat demeaning of the perpetrators] to engage in personal attacks than in the science.”
Well it’s marvellous news that Leif has come to this conclusion. I shall look forward to interesting and insult free scientific discussion with him from now on. I’m sure Vuk will too.
But that also means that you have to do the harder of the two. If you do, the discussions will, indeed, be better. We shall see.
Hi Leif, I can see what you are driving at here, but if you think you have the right to restrict the discussion of the Sun and its changing activity to one version of the Babcock-Leighton theory or another and define other hypotheses as ‘unscientific’ then we will be doing more disagreeing, hopefully politely, or at least with humorous digs rather than seriously rancorous ones.
NASA scientists Wolff and Patrone, and Ching Cheh Hung among other predecessors such as Paul Hose, Rhodes Fairbridge and Ivanka Charvatova have put the planetary-solar hypothesis into the literature, and there is legitimate discussion to be had regarding the possible consequences of their findings.
I believe the correct answer will be found in the fusion and integration of both the dynamo theory and the planetary-solar hypotheses. Something causes those meridional flow rates to change, and I doubt the Sun is doing it all by itself. The Wolff-Patrone mechanism posits changing amounts of energy release from overturning convective cells which relate to the motion of the Sun relative to the centre of mass of the solar system. If your hints regarding the depth of the return subsurface flows are correct, their model will need refining and testing further against observation.
In my opinion, it’s about time the solar science community spent a comparatively small amount of money funding research into working out how the solar inertial motion is affecting those flow rates, alongside their efforts to successfully model the magnetic fields and sunspot production.
Let’s all do the science together, while we argue over the details.