Ravetz on Lisbon and leading the way

Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK.

Guest post by Dr. Jerome Ravetz

While the micro-bureaucracy of the Lisbon workshop bureaucracy grinds its way towards the release of a statement, I realise that the time is long overdue for me to touch base at WUWT.

After all, it was at WUWT (with the help of Rog Tallbloke) that I made my debut on the blogosphere, and enjoyed the reaction of hundreds of readers, be they enthusiastic or vitriolic. Also, it was on WUWT that I had the first experience of seeing non-violent communication in the Climategate debate. The circumstances were surprising, for it involved our very own fire-eating champion Willis.

He was responding to Judith Curry’s posting, where she explained how she had got to where she was then. Of course he loathed her for complicity in the great Warmista fraud, and he despised her for attempting to apologise for her actions rather than crawling to WUWT in full contrition. But he had to admit that he respected and admired her for guts in doing a Daniel act, and facing the lions like himself. At that point, non-violence in the climate debate was born. For Willis had realised that bad people are not necessarily all bad. There might even be some purpose in talking to them! From that point on, WUWT could take the lead in enforcing civility in the debate, and I am very pleased to see how the principle has spread all across the lines.

Reflecting on that incident, I began to shape up ideas for the workshop that eventually took place last month. Of course it was highly imperfect, with many things done and not done in error. But what was remarkable was the universal spirit of accomplishment, even delight, that people were getting on so well and so productively. Of course, this depended to some extent on our choice of invitations; we did get close to the edge of the zone on the spectrum within in which people would be sure to be reasonably civil to each other. On that first meeting, with so much other learning to do, it would not have been productive to have explosions of mutual insults. Another time, we could try to take on that one as well.

I suppose people know that I went to a Quaker college, Swarthmore, and I have spent all the years afterwards making sense of its message of nonviolence. In a course on political science I read ‘The Power of Non-Violence’ by Richard Gregg. It struck me as very sweet but quite unrealistic. Between then and now was Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Aung San Suu Kyi, and now Tunisia, Egypt and beyond. It seems that a group of non-violent activists in Serbia had used a book by one of Gregg’s followers, Gene Sharp. They had passed the message to a study group in Qatar, and it was picked up by the activists in Tunisia and Egypt to become the basis of their strategy. The rest is history in the making. There is at last some chance that revolutions now will not simply produce new tyrannies. All this gives support to my conviction that we were correct in making the main purpose of the Lisbon workshop to further the development of non-violence in scientific debate.

My principle has always been that you don’t know what the other person is going through, and to return their violence doesn’t help them resolve their conflict of conscience. It’s so easy to condemn the evil ones and try to destroy them; that way we would still have the sectarian killings in Northern Ireland and probably a bloodbath in South Africa. On the personal level, who would have known that the slave-trader John Newton was being prepared for the experience that would eventually lead him to compose ‘Amazing Grace’?

With those words of explanation, I offer my Lisbon public lecture to Anthony Watts for debate on WUWT. This, I believe is the essence of the Lisbon story, rather than who said what about whom. Willis – over to you!

==================================================================

Non-Violence in Science?

Jerome Ravetz,

Reconciliation in the Climate Change Debate’

Public Meeting at the Gulbenkian Foundation

Lisbon 28 January 2011

People attending this conference might find the whole idea of non-violence in science to be strange. We are familiar, by now, with the use of reconciliation and non-violence to resolve intractable disputes in the political sphere. Indeed, it is now generally accepted that this is the only way to achieve a lasting and just settlement in conflicts between peoples. It worked in South Africa and in Northern Ireland, and noone with standing in the international community argues for a different approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict. But science? What possible relevance could this approach have to science?

Debate, sometimes fierce and impassioned, is the lifeblood of science. The advances of science do not occur smoothly and by consensus. There are always at least two sides to the interpretation of new theories and results. Social researchers have found that each scientific side explains its own attitudes in methodological terms, and explains the attitudes of the opposition in sociological terms. Roughly speaking, “I” am being a scientist, and “They” are being – something else. All this is quite natural and inevitable, and it has been that way from the beginning.

The process does not work perfectly. There is no ‘hidden hand’ that guides scientists quickly and correctly to the right answer. There can be injustices and losses; great innovators can languish in obscurity for a lifetime, because their theories were too discordant with the prevailing paradigm or ‘tacit knowledge’. However, to the best of our knowledge, the correct understanding does eventually emerge, thanks to the normal processes of debate and to the plurality of locations and voices in any field of science.

Why, then, have we organised a scientific conference about reconciliation, where we have actually had instruction in the theory and practice of ‘Non-Violent Communication’? Do we really need to import the teachings of Mahatma Gandhi into the conduct of science? We believe that on this occasion we do. This conference has not been about science in general, or any old field of science. The focus has been on Climate Change, and in particular the rancour that has been released by the ‘Climategate’ emails from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in Norwich, England.

This debate has not just been about the science of climate change It also concerns policy, for reducing the emissions of Carbon Dioxide worldwide. This requires a very large, complex and expensive project. It extends into lifestyles and values, as the transition out of a carbon-based economy will require a change in our ideas of comfort, convenience and the good life. There are urgent issues of equity, both between rich and poor peoples now, and also between ourselves and our descendants. All these profound issues depend for their resolution on an adequate basis in science. Some say, if we are not really sure that bad things are happening, why bother imposing these drastic and costly changes on the world’s people? But others reply, by what right can we use scientific uncertainty as an excuse for failing to protect ourselves and our descendants from irreversible catastrophe?

Both of those positions accept that there is a real debate about the strength of the science, and effectively argue about the proper burden of proof, or degree of precaution that is justified. But there are plenty of voices on the extremes. For quite some time, the official scientific establishments, particularly in the Anglophone world, claimed that ‘the science is settled’, and ‘the debate is over’. At the opposite extreme are those, including some quite reputable scientists, who argue that nothing whatever has been proved about the long-term changes in climate that might be resulting from the current increase in the concentration of Carbon Dioxide. Between these extremes, the explanations of opposing views are not merely sociological. They become political and moral. Each side accuses the other of being corrupt. The ‘skeptics’ or ‘deniers’ are dismissed as either working for outside interests, industrial or ideological, or being grossly incompetent as scientists. In short, as being either prostitutes or cranks. In their turn, the ‘alarmists’ or ‘warmistas’ are accused of feathering their own nests as grant-gaining entrepreneurial scientists, playing along with their own dishonest ideological politicians. In their protestations of scientific objectivity, they are accused of the corruptions of hypocrisy.

In the classic philosophy of science, it was imagined that debates would be settled by a ‘crucial experiment’. The observations made by Eddington in 1919 confirmed Einstein’s general theory of relativity, tout court. Before that, Rutherford showed that the atom is nearly all empty space, with a massive nucleus and planetary electrons circling it. Such crisp, clean experiments are taken as characteristic of natural science, establishing its status as solid knowledge, superior to the mere opinions of the social sciences and humanities. Where such crucial experiments happen not to occur, as in the case of Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection, it is assumed that they would occur if we could devise them. For that is the essence of science.

When we come to the climate, there are indeed two classic, simple experiences that for some are as conclusive as Eddington’s observation of the planet Mercury and of the light from the star in the Hyades cluster. The first of these is the original model of a ‘greenhouse’ earth made by the Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius in 1896. And the second is a remarkable set of readings of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, taken on top of the Hawaiian volcano Mauna Loa, showing a steady rise from their inception in the 1950’s. Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced. Suffice to say that the application of the Arrhenius model to the actual conditions on earth, including all the effects that could modify the entry and exit of radiant energy, plus the storage of heat in the oceans, leaves plenty of room for debate for those that want it. And the Mauna Loa data extend only over a half-century; extrapolating that backwards or forward is again not entirely straightforward.

Hence the climate science debate is one where all the features that make natural science different from sociology, or indeed from politics, are weakened or absent. And in the course of that debate we have discovered a serious flaw in the prevailing philosophy of science: there is no explanation of honest error. Students of science never see a failed experiment or a mistaken theory; for them it is success and truth all the way. Only those who have done truly innovative research discover how intimately are success and failure, truth and error, connected. And so when a scientist finds him- or herself convinced of the truth of a particular theory, they have no framework for treating their erring opponent with respect. “I” am right, “you” are wrong, and by persisting in your error you demonstrate that your failings are moral as well as intellectual. In the ordinary course of scientific debate such attitudes are kept under control, but in the total, complex climate science debate they come to dominate.

The debate has passed its peak of intensity, as the failure of Copenhagen has taken the impetus out of the policy drive. But the rancour and bitterness are unresolved. There has been some softening of attitudes about the issue of global warming, but (so far as I can see) little softening of emotions about past adversaries. It is for that reason that my colleagues and I have made this unusual experiment, if you wish bringing Gandhi to science or even science to Gandhi. As we planned it, our hopes were modest indeed. We could not imagine attracting people with very hardened views on the other side. We know that political negotiations begin with intermediaries, then perhaps progress to members in adjacent rooms, eventually have principals all ensconced in a secret location, and only when it is all over do they meet in public. Of course people don’t trust and respect each other at the start; and they themselves are distrusted by their own side even for dealing with the enemy. Only gradually, with many fits and false starts, is trust built up.

So for our first little experiment, we brought together people who would at least talk to those we brought with opposing views. And of course, what is essential in such activities, all who are there agree that this is an important venture. When we saw how some very busy people have enthusiastically agreed to come from very long distances, we felt that this venture is indeed worthwhile. Of course we hope that by its success it will lead to others. We do not at all intend to ‘solve’ the climate science debate, or to reach a consensus on whether we must now mount a global campaign against Carbon Dioxide. That is to be left to other forums, organised from within the appropriate scientific institutions. If we can only get people talking, and eventually framing particular scientific questions on which agreement could in principle be reached, that will have been as great a success as we could hope for.

We would also like such a venture as this to be an example of the power of non-violence, even in science. The great culture heroes of the last half-century have been defined by non-violence: Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu, and now Aung San Suu Kyi. They all paid a price for their convictions, sometimes a heavy one. We note that none were white men, and none were scientists. This is not to say that non-violence has been totally absent from science. We all know of Einstein and his ambivalent relation to warfare; and there is the late Sir Joseph Rotblat, who gave up a career in science to found the Pugwash movement for East-West dialogue during the cold war. But if we search for scientists who have really lived out their non-violent convictions, we find two nonwhite women: Wangerai Maathai and Vandana Shiva.

That reflection brings me to the state of science itself. Those of an older generation remember a time when the prestige of science was unquestioned. Science would save the world, and scientists would do the saving. It is all different now, and the mutual denunciations of the scientists in the Climategate debate have not helped. One of the most important influences that drove me to a personal involvement in this debate was a report by our distinguished colleague Judith Curry, of a conversation with a student. This student was dismayed by the Climategate story that had just broken, and wondered whether this was the sort of career that she wanted to take up. We all know what happens to institutions when they fail to attract the brightest and the best young people. Slowly, perhaps, but surely, they atrophy and wither.

You see the connection. If ‘science’ comes to be seen by young people as the sort of institution where Climategate happens, and where scientists insult and condemn each other, its future is not bright. Of course, this negative reaction would happen only at the margins; but it is at the margins where we will find the really wonderful young people that we need. I cannot prescribe, indeed I can scarcely imagine, how the spirit of non-violence that has inspired the political world can be imported effectively into science. But I would argue that it is an attempt that is well worth making, even for the future of science itself.

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Jeremy
February 22, 2011 7:31 am

Why does this come off as sounding like those who caused our doom while telling us to be quiet are now taking credit for being the peacemakers in the debate they said was over? Sounds highly arrogant there Ravetz, rethink and re-write please.

Martin Lewitt
February 22, 2011 7:53 am

eadler,
“Initially’, in the 1980′s and 1990′s, this attack on the science, was lead by the energy interests in the US, who contributed to think tanks like CATO, Heritage, and Heartland Institute. These think tanks employed some like minded scientists to lead the denial of the science.”
As I recall, rather than attack or denial of the science, there was well founded criticism, that lead to much more sophisticated attempts to account for the urban heat island effect. Just because there is an ideological correlation today, it doesn’t follow that the discourse had to become a shouting match with personal attacks and charges of lying or lack of integrity. Look at the substance of the claims of that the “debate is closed” and charges of “denialism”, you will find that the first is false and the second is mere name calling. Look at the substance of charges of lying and lack of integrity you will find that there was reasonable suspicion based upon evasive or intellectually dishonest IPCC author responses to expert review comments, lack of openness on data and methods, IPCC unjustified claims of confidence and failure to address model diagnostic issues in their summaries or reports of projections, difficulty getting contrary data published, obstruction of FOI requests, even before it was substantiated by the climategate evidence. Unfortunately there is actually lying and lack of integrity and in such circumstances the credibility of the science is best served by addressing it forthrightly. Persons of integrity can be objective regardless of their funding sources, so you are unjustified characterizing their criticisms of the science as “attacks” on that basis alone.
regards

johanna
February 22, 2011 8:02 am

Ron Cram said:
For example, when I say unions destroy the economy, some people will think I’m talking about politics. Not true. That is a statement about history and economics. And it is irrefutable.
————————————————————
Ron, you have shot yourself in the foot. If nothing in science is ‘irrefutable’, how on Earth can a statement founded in your view of history and economics be irrefutable? I’m not going to argue the toss with you (except to note in passing that unions are a feature of rich economies, not poor ones) – but let’s stick to discussing science and science policy here.
eadler said:
Initially’, in the 1980′s and 1990′s, this attack on the science, was lead by the energy interests in the US, who contributed to think tanks like CATO, Heritage, and Heartland Institute. These think tanks employed some like minded scientists to lead the denial of the science. Other groups opposed to big government have also chimed in. It is pretty clear that among laymen, there is a large correlation between political stance and one’s position on the science of global warming.
———————————————————-
First of all, could I share with you my irritation with the term ‘the science’, which is about as (no, less!) meaningful than ‘the pink horned unicorn’. The pink horned unicorn might possibly exist. ‘The science’ is an oxymoron. One of the two words has to go, for either to have any meaning.
While people like Anthony are not living (sorry owning, only dropping in now and then) in $20m mansions on the coast in California, I won’t bother with the nonsense about rivers of gold to those who disagree with the so-called consensus.
Finally, the correlation between people’s political views and their opinions on CAGW is nowhere as clear cut as you imagine. In the UK, while all major parties subscribe to this nonsense, most voters, across the board, do not. I will not presume to comment on US politics, which is much more complicated than choices between 2 parties – but the punters are not buying it, that much is clear. In Australia, the conservative parties came within a whisker of winning the last election on a skeptical policy platform. The Labor Party is now doing everything in its power to slow down and sideline mad policies which will hit its working class base, while trying not to lose face.
In Australia, Green voters are mostly affluent inner city dwellers who (a) can afford doubling of power prices and (b) wouldn’t last 5 minutes in the bush.
It would be taxing WUWT readers (and me) to run through the rest of the errors in your post. But, please do not imagine that silence is assent.

Tom Jones
February 22, 2011 8:11 am

Ravetz says, “When we come to the climate, there are indeed two classic, simple experiences that for some are as conclusive as Eddington’s observation of the planet Mercury and of the light from the star in the Hyades cluster. The first of these is the original model of a ‘greenhouse’ earth made by the Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius in 1896. And the second is a remarkable set of readings of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, taken on top of the Hawaiian volcano Mauna Loa, showing a steady rise from their inception in the 1950’s. Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced.”
Add to that list, those who absolutely do not believe that correlation and causation are the same thing. Sometimes, correlation points you the way to go. Sometimes, it points to the weeds. That combination means almost nothing, and a great deal of subsequent work has been ambigous. Climategate suggested that some of the previous work had indeed been false, and suggested that some leading players were not to be trusted.
The way out is not reconciliation. It is for fact-based science to come to indisputable conclusions.

Ron Cram
February 22, 2011 8:29 am

David, thank you for pointing me to your comment. I agree with it completely.
Dr. Ravetz,
I would like to make a number of propositional statements and ask you to kindly respond to each whether you agree or disagree.
1. It is fine, even helpful, to observe that climate science has entered an abnormal period and calling it post-normal science is an adequate title to describe the current situation.
2. The goal is to return to a period of normality in climate science, where scientists make argue their positions passionately, but with civility, honesty, openness and good will.
3. A call to greater civility in the climate debate is welcome if it is accompanied by a call for greater honesty, openness and adherence to the standards of science. There is little point in observing we are in a post-normal situation unless we also call scientists back to normal science.
4. The reason we have entered this period of post-normal science is because climate scientists have been pushing a policy agenda to lower carbon emissions and that agenda required fudging and cherry-picking data, hiding adverse data, ignoring scientific uncertainty and blocking publication of science papers by skeptics.
5. The best road forward to reach the goal of normal climate science is to keep separate the discussion of science and policy. Policy should not be discussed until the science is fully and fairly assessed, a task the IPCC has shown itself incapable of completing.
6. The best way to fully and fairly assess the current state of climate science is to establish an editorial board dedicated to the task of climate science assessment on a scale similar to AR5, but by including all three groups of scientists: proponents, skeptics and lukewarmers.
Dr. Ravetz, do you agree with these observations, opinions and goals?

Allen
February 22, 2011 8:36 am

This seemingly reasonable prose is a thin veil for the dirty rhetorical war that continues to be waged. Recently I heard an alarmist shill called Bob McDonald over at the CBC appealing to the authority of the IPCC. A journalist who dogmatically adheres to the CAGW theory and has access to the bully pulpit ought to remind us that the war is not over.
Dr. Ravetz, there can be no peace when war is all around us.

Ron Cram
February 22, 2011 8:37 am

Johanna,
I used unionism as an example that everyone could understand. I was not trying to establish an argument that was still being discussed.
Unions are found in rich economies and formerly rich economies. In the US, the states which are doing the best are the right-to-work states (mostly in the South). In California, where I live, unions have destroyed the steel industry, the automaking industry and the aerospace industry is on the ropes. Manufacturing is nearly dead, except in instances protected by patents. Unions pretend they have not lost their powerbase, but their jobs are disappearing. Most union workers now work in government or in the service or agricultural industries.
For more information, see http://nrtw.org/

February 22, 2011 9:05 am

I think Gerry Ravetz has a fundamental misunderstanding about the “debate”, a misunderstanding that is shared by most of the warmists.
Many of us, Gerry, started off as warmists, some like myself activist warmists committed to waking other people up because “we have a problem”. We became skeptics when we dug FOR OURSELVES a bit deeper into the science, and into the cost and cost-effectiveness of mitigation. We realized that the Precautionary Principle is exactly stood on its head. The only precaution worth taking is getting the truth, the real science. And that means Openness. Accountability. Auditability. Debate. Availability of Data. Availability of Methods. Let the Evidence Speak. Let Us Speak for Ourselves. Everything we have worked for, non-violently, in all ways we could find, as Gandhi would have done. Everything the AGW team have not done.
Show what experiments have been done that actually contain evidence that increasing CO2 in the real world has warmed the planet. There is nothing. The correlation between increasing CO2 and rising temperature is appalling on many counts.
Gerry, there is virtually nobody who has “converted” the opposite direction. Sure, a few, a very few, have converted from ignorant skepticism to AGW belief backed up by the orthodox science. But everyone who looks seriously at the skeptics’ science as well as the orthodox science, converts the other direction. We maintain that it is PRECISELY because of this that warmists wanted to maintain “the debate is over”.
This is why you come across as patronizing, Gerry.
Please, study the science. Our science as well as the warmist science. Truth matters. Gandhi said “Be The Change”. In this context, this means Study The Science. Then we would have more respect for you. I’ve written a Primer to help you do that, written for non-scientists as well as scientists. Confessions of an Ex-Warmist. Click my name.

February 22, 2011 9:42 am

Gerry Ravetz is an arch-dissembler: on one side we have the political clout of many governments in the Western world and on the other we have the seekers of truth who know ‘the science is not settled’. Ravetz is seeking an accomodation where none can exist; only the truth revealed by non-partisan science can be the goal.
From a historical perspective, non-violent peaceful protest was invented 60 years before Ghandi by two Maori Chiefs in New Zealand, Te Whitu and Tohu, who used the tactic of non-violence to attempt to keep their lands from the incoming British. They failed in the short term. For anyone interested in the the history of that time and place, Dick Scott’s book ‘Ask That Mountain’ is a fascinating place to start.

February 22, 2011 9:46 am

Examples.
I will select a few comments and ask you all to consider how they work as pieces of writing. Ask yourself, if I were Ravetz, what would my reaction be? Are these people trying to convince me? reason with me?, insult me? shame me? change the topic? What is the likely reaction after reading the first sentence?
Also, ask yourself how many of these pieces played to the crowd. I used to see this all the time at RC. Where people would not engage in the questions asked, but rather the would turn to each other and mock or attack the “outsider” who showed up to say something that they didnt agree with 100%.
#########################
#
The other side offers peace. It shows they are losing. The planet is cooling. Watch the sun. Ignore the verbal trickery of the opponent.
Somebody somewhere (hopefully not me, even indirectly) is presumably paying for the production of this pious drivel.
I am sorry, but I think that this post is multi-metaphorical mish-mash.
Somehow, I suspect the good professor grew up in a very sheltered environment if he thinks “talking ugly” is “violence”. I think maybe Jerome spent his playground period in the library.
I don’t care. When people sink as low as Hansen, I will consider them trash. Although I will probably not be allowed to say what I think of this sub-human anti-humanity person, I’ll still read along.
I’m sorry, Dr. Ravetz, but your prose gives me the heebie-jeebies. Why? Because the universe you live in appears to me to be the artificial, nay phantasmagoric, construct of a confused mind.
Dr. Ravetz,
You were part of the devolution of many parts of academia into activism based upon divisive ad hominem rhetoric and collective identity politics.
##########
a week or so ago we had our annual WUWT dinner in SF. Anthony, Willis, Charles, Smokey, Myself, Tom Fuller. It’s our time to reflect upon the year, and Anthony always asks us what we suggest for improving WUWT. We discussed page formats,
new departments ( like the reference pages), posts and comments. I’ll just ask folks if they are doing everything in their power to add to the conversation. If they are making WUWT a more thoughtful, more credible, more enjoyable place than it was yesterday. Anthony puts a huge amount of work into this place. So has charles and willis. I think folks owe it to them to pause and think before they rattle off invective.
But I’ll also note that good nasty street brawls get a lot of attention.

February 22, 2011 9:50 am

I said, “Truth Matters”…
… then remembered, this is the most fundamental issue where I feel in violently uncomfortable disagreement with you. Post-Normal-Science replacing “truth” with “value” is unerringly offensive and I will not budge on that even if PNS folk gagged me and trussed me and tortured me.
I will not budge for the simple reason that I cannot. The universe is built on truth, and it is Truth that heals above all else, as psychology knows well, and has healed me at my own encounters with death and despair.
What PNS has picked up that is important, is the awareness somewhere that Science cannot totally exclude the Observer of the Experiment – and if Science tries to do this, as it has for 300 years, the Observer will bite back eventually. You cannot leave human values out of Science. But this has been forgotten for so long that it needs to be explored again, openly, in a “brave new world” in Shakespeare’s original sense, where Truth still speaks deeply to the soul and still shines a heavenly light to illumine everything, yea even Post Normal Shibboleths.
Human values need to be re-incorporated into Scientific Method. Passing “beyond” Truth – never.

February 22, 2011 10:02 am

eadler:
‘Steve,
Don’t hold your breath. This has become a political and ideological question. In such cases, civility,logic and rational thought goes out the window. Prejudice and belief reign supreme.”
Thanks. The way I look at it is this. I like Judith because she is willing to engage in debate ( even with people who are obviously wrong) because she believes in rational discourse. So, I continue to look for like minded people. I think you might be one of them. If you dont believe in rational discourse, then you believe in the application of force or power to settle issues.
many people here who claim to want a return to “normal” science are actually using irrational, illogical, threatening discourse to try “convince” others to return to a rational debate. Ironic. But they started it! That’s a funny thing to think about. If you believe that the discourse has been moved by the other side away from what science really is, what is the best way to return to “normal” rational discourse?
Here’s a thought. If your theory is that we return to rational discourse by engaging in counter punching, hitting back, invective, insult, motive hunting, ect.. How well is that theory holding up? err not too well.

Ron Cram
February 22, 2011 10:19 am

Dr. Ravetz,
I forgot to mention one other extremely important propositional statement:
7. Post-normal science occurs in cases where “facts are uncertain, values in dispute, stakes high and decisions urgent.” In science, the first of these three apply almost all the time. The claim that decisions are urgent (such as Jim Hansen’s statement to Barack Obama that he only had four years to save the world) has not been shown and has no credibility. Therefore, the goal is to return to a normal science situation as quickly as possible.

Vince Causey
February 22, 2011 10:23 am

Johanna,
“It would be taxing WUWT readers (and me) to run through the rest of the errors in your post. But, please do not imagine that silence is assent.”
Well said Johanna. I did think of replying, but it would be like trying to write down and respond to every propaganda item in a party political pamphlet – a fools errand. I refuse to take the bait.

Martin Lewitt
February 22, 2011 10:33 am

Steven Mosher,
“Also, ask yourself how many of these pieces played to the crowd. I used to see this all the time at RC.”
RC also censored inconvenient substantive posts exploiting their moderation positions to make sure they got the last word, and while feeding strawman “denier” trolls to the mob. Freedom and lack of censorship is messy, the stuff you see “all the time” is a small price to pay. Dr. Ravetz would probably earn the respect of many here if he stuck around and substantively engaged with us on any serious points raised. I see no reason to insult WUWT with such a comparison.

Sam Parsons
February 22, 2011 10:35 am

Seems to me that you are engaged in third-grade school marming. I have an instinctive repulsion for that kind of behavior. Once upon a time, I believed that I experienced the repulsion because I was male. Then I visited New York City and realized I was a New Yorker. Californians might not get it. Anyway, I believe that everyone should have an instinctive revulsion for third-grade school marming and, yes, sadly, I believe that all third-grade school marms should be shunned or made to teach in the Big Apple.

February 22, 2011 10:42 am

Ah Mosh I agree with so much of what you write… even though we may differ over the science.
Could you do a piece for WUWT on “PNS and Blog Behaviour: What Advances Science and What Hinders it” – or the like?

old engineer
February 22, 2011 11:04 am

Ah, now I understand. It is not the message that people are objecting to, it is the messenger. A case of “who you are speaks so loudly I can’t hear what you are saying.” And certainly Dr. Ravetz remarks about Willis Eschenbach shows he is not a practitioner of non-violent communication. Non-violent communication does not evoke violent response.
One point needs to be made about the historic “non-violent” movements. When they are referred to, a word is left out- that word is “resistance.” The movements were about non-violent resistance to the status quo. Anyone who lived though those times (or studied them) knows there was plenty of violence. It was a case of: I am willing to die for this cause, but not to kill for it.
Does anyone doubt that the societal status quo in regard to AGW, is that it is an established fact? We who are skeptical are in the minority. We need to use all the tools of non-violent resistance: the courts, the vote, and non-violent communications.
But communications with who? Not the Phil Joneses or Jim Hansens. They will not change. The communications needs to be with the people who listen to the Phil Joneses and Jim Hansens and believed them. Get them to listen to us, instead. Then the status quo will change, and Phil Jones and Jim Hansen will be irrelevant.

Mark Twang
February 22, 2011 11:22 am

In terms of science, the only value I can see to this prissy insistence on “civility” would be if the people who refuse to publish their data sets and other bits and pieces that they want to withhold even in the face of FOIA requests were to cough them up in the interest of full disclosure, in exchange for not being called names anymore.
Not a likely outcome, I fear.

February 22, 2011 12:04 pm

Lucy Skywalker says:
February 22, 2011 at 10:42 am
Ah Mosh I agree with so much of what you write… even though we may differ over the science.
Could you do a piece for WUWT on “PNS and Blog Behaviour: What Advances Science and What Hinders it” – or the like?
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I’ve been thinking. i know the minute I try to tell people how to act, that they will be able to find me doing the very thing I am complaining about. There is no getting away from that. When I was asked to attend the conference, I wrote down my position.
It came to this. I don’t think we are even ready to talk about “reconciliation”. I think the best we can do is outline behaviors which make the conflict worse. I know those behaviors. I’ve engaged in them. Some people might think I’ve perfected some of them. But still, upon reflection, I’m more happy with the friends I’ve made than the enemies. Thanks Lucy. More thinking..

February 22, 2011 12:18 pm

Martin Lewitt says:
February 22, 2011 at 10:33 am
Steven Mosher,
“Also, ask yourself how many of these pieces played to the crowd. I used to see this all the time at RC.”
RC also censored inconvenient substantive posts exploiting their moderation positions to make sure they got the last word, and while feeding strawman “denier” trolls to the mob. Freedom and lack of censorship is messy, the stuff you see “all the time” is a small price to pay. Dr. Ravetz would probably earn the respect of many here if he stuck around and substantively engaged with us on any serious points raised. I see no reason to insult WUWT with such a comparison.
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I’m sorry if you saw it as an insult to WUWT. I will tell you that when I shared this with Anthony at dinner he did not see it as an insult. It’s my perception that the quality of debate has suffered somewhat here. You dont find many informed warmists willing to come here and engage. That might be by Their design. People know that a good debate generates traffic. For example, I bet if Willis and I decided to go at it we could generate a nice long thread. (we joked about this at dinner) The point is I see the behavior of SOME commenters slouching toward the behavior that drove me away from RC. To be sure, the moderation policy there played a huge role.(like C02, hehe) scrolling through a long pile of comments that amount to “they suck” gets a bit tiresome.
But, on the other hand, sometimes it IS entertaining. Here’s the problem. we want to delight and instruct.
So, I’ll suggest that folks try some different modes of engaging with others. Just experiment. No hugging or hand holding or singing folk songs required.

Bruce Cobb
February 22, 2011 12:33 pm

eadler says:
February 22, 2011 at 6:51 am
“This has become a political and ideological question. In such cases, civility,logic and rational thought goes out the window. Prejudice and belief reign supreme.”
Yes indeed. The idiotic notion that our C02 is some sort of threat to the planet is both political and ideological, and the irrationality of Warmists is testament to a belief system which is beyond the pale, and itself poses a grave danger to humanity. Fortunately, there are many skeptics/climate realists challenging that belief system, which is now foundering.
You’re welcome.

Martin Lewitt
February 22, 2011 1:02 pm

Steve Mosher,
“Here’s a thought. If your theory is that we return to rational discourse by engaging in counter punching, hitting back, invective, insult, motive hunting, ect.. How well is that theory holding up? err not too well.”
There is plenty of rational discourse here, so it mustn’t be working too well either. What it is probably going to take is for the science to get settled and the hubris, dissemblance and dishonesty of the “debate is over” crowd to be thoroughly discredited. Then maybe it will take a culture that swears to keep the memory alive.

Pooh, Dixie
February 22, 2011 1:15 pm

I am grateful to Dr. Ravetz for referring to his Quaker background. It illuminates his use of the words “violence” and “non-violence”. I had assumed the common usage (physical violence), and was puzzled. The Quaker interpretation of Mt 5:21-22 is both reasonable and honorable. I also appreciate EternalOptimist’s distinguishing between intellectual and physical violence (February 21, 2011 at 1:29 pm).

Pooh, Dixie
February 22, 2011 1:20 pm

As much as I appreciate the viewpoints presented by Dr. Ravetz, I have a few reservations. Among them:
Dr. Ravetz appeals to the Precautionary Principle, using other words: “by what right can we use scientific uncertainty as an excuse for failing to protect ourselves and our descendants from irreversible catastrophe?” Cass Sunstein, who authored a book on the Precautionary Principle, did not agree that it should be used for climate change. Sunstein also co-authored books / papers on global warming and social justice, and climate change and discounting the future.
Sunstein, Cass R. 2008. Throwing precaution to the wind: Why the ‘safe’ choice can be dangerous. Opinion. boston.com – The Boston Globe. July 13. http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/07/13/throwing_precaution_to_the_wind
Sunstein, Cass R. 2005. Laws of Fear: Beyond the Precautionary Principle. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press
Sunstein, Cass R., and Eric A. Posner. 2008. Global Warming and Social Justice. Regulation (Spring). http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv31n1/v31n1-3.pdf
Sunstein, Cass R., and David Weisbach. 2008. Climate Change and Discounting the Future: A Guide for the Perplexed. Working Paper. Reg-Markets Center, AEI Center for Regulatory and Market Studies, August. http://aei-brookings.org/admin/authorpdfs/redirect-safely.php?fname=../pdffiles/phpEK.pdf
“High Stakes” was a prominent condition for employing Post Normal Science. It is not mentioned here. The possibility of catastrophic anthropogenic global warming is a high stakes issue, but the possibly needless destruction of the economies of western civilization by bureaucrats regulating carbon dioxide is also a high stakes issue.
“Nothing could be more convincing than that combination (Svante Arrhenius and Mauna Loa), except to those who do not wish to be convinced.” I suspect that Dr. Ravetz wishes that he had not written that, given its implication and the context of his lecture.
“There are urgent issues of equity, both between rich and poor peoples now, and also between ourselves and our descendants.” I do not believe that the issue of equity can be solved by shipping boatloads of money to Mugabe and his ilk. There is a proven solution: recognize Natural Law (“Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”) is above legislation and the executive, then “…proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants”, and finally to …”secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, … ordain and establish this Constitution….”