Ravetz on Lisbon and leading the way

Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK.

Guest post by Dr. Jerome Ravetz

While the micro-bureaucracy of the Lisbon workshop bureaucracy grinds its way towards the release of a statement, I realise that the time is long overdue for me to touch base at WUWT.

After all, it was at WUWT (with the help of Rog Tallbloke) that I made my debut on the blogosphere, and enjoyed the reaction of hundreds of readers, be they enthusiastic or vitriolic. Also, it was on WUWT that I had the first experience of seeing non-violent communication in the Climategate debate. The circumstances were surprising, for it involved our very own fire-eating champion Willis.

He was responding to Judith Curry’s posting, where she explained how she had got to where she was then. Of course he loathed her for complicity in the great Warmista fraud, and he despised her for attempting to apologise for her actions rather than crawling to WUWT in full contrition. But he had to admit that he respected and admired her for guts in doing a Daniel act, and facing the lions like himself. At that point, non-violence in the climate debate was born. For Willis had realised that bad people are not necessarily all bad. There might even be some purpose in talking to them! From that point on, WUWT could take the lead in enforcing civility in the debate, and I am very pleased to see how the principle has spread all across the lines.

Reflecting on that incident, I began to shape up ideas for the workshop that eventually took place last month. Of course it was highly imperfect, with many things done and not done in error. But what was remarkable was the universal spirit of accomplishment, even delight, that people were getting on so well and so productively. Of course, this depended to some extent on our choice of invitations; we did get close to the edge of the zone on the spectrum within in which people would be sure to be reasonably civil to each other. On that first meeting, with so much other learning to do, it would not have been productive to have explosions of mutual insults. Another time, we could try to take on that one as well.

I suppose people know that I went to a Quaker college, Swarthmore, and I have spent all the years afterwards making sense of its message of nonviolence. In a course on political science I read ‘The Power of Non-Violence’ by Richard Gregg. It struck me as very sweet but quite unrealistic. Between then and now was Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Aung San Suu Kyi, and now Tunisia, Egypt and beyond. It seems that a group of non-violent activists in Serbia had used a book by one of Gregg’s followers, Gene Sharp. They had passed the message to a study group in Qatar, and it was picked up by the activists in Tunisia and Egypt to become the basis of their strategy. The rest is history in the making. There is at last some chance that revolutions now will not simply produce new tyrannies. All this gives support to my conviction that we were correct in making the main purpose of the Lisbon workshop to further the development of non-violence in scientific debate.

My principle has always been that you don’t know what the other person is going through, and to return their violence doesn’t help them resolve their conflict of conscience. It’s so easy to condemn the evil ones and try to destroy them; that way we would still have the sectarian killings in Northern Ireland and probably a bloodbath in South Africa. On the personal level, who would have known that the slave-trader John Newton was being prepared for the experience that would eventually lead him to compose ‘Amazing Grace’?

With those words of explanation, I offer my Lisbon public lecture to Anthony Watts for debate on WUWT. This, I believe is the essence of the Lisbon story, rather than who said what about whom. Willis – over to you!

==================================================================

Non-Violence in Science?

Jerome Ravetz,

Reconciliation in the Climate Change Debate’

Public Meeting at the Gulbenkian Foundation

Lisbon 28 January 2011

People attending this conference might find the whole idea of non-violence in science to be strange. We are familiar, by now, with the use of reconciliation and non-violence to resolve intractable disputes in the political sphere. Indeed, it is now generally accepted that this is the only way to achieve a lasting and just settlement in conflicts between peoples. It worked in South Africa and in Northern Ireland, and noone with standing in the international community argues for a different approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict. But science? What possible relevance could this approach have to science?

Debate, sometimes fierce and impassioned, is the lifeblood of science. The advances of science do not occur smoothly and by consensus. There are always at least two sides to the interpretation of new theories and results. Social researchers have found that each scientific side explains its own attitudes in methodological terms, and explains the attitudes of the opposition in sociological terms. Roughly speaking, “I” am being a scientist, and “They” are being – something else. All this is quite natural and inevitable, and it has been that way from the beginning.

The process does not work perfectly. There is no ‘hidden hand’ that guides scientists quickly and correctly to the right answer. There can be injustices and losses; great innovators can languish in obscurity for a lifetime, because their theories were too discordant with the prevailing paradigm or ‘tacit knowledge’. However, to the best of our knowledge, the correct understanding does eventually emerge, thanks to the normal processes of debate and to the plurality of locations and voices in any field of science.

Why, then, have we organised a scientific conference about reconciliation, where we have actually had instruction in the theory and practice of ‘Non-Violent Communication’? Do we really need to import the teachings of Mahatma Gandhi into the conduct of science? We believe that on this occasion we do. This conference has not been about science in general, or any old field of science. The focus has been on Climate Change, and in particular the rancour that has been released by the ‘Climategate’ emails from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in Norwich, England.

This debate has not just been about the science of climate change It also concerns policy, for reducing the emissions of Carbon Dioxide worldwide. This requires a very large, complex and expensive project. It extends into lifestyles and values, as the transition out of a carbon-based economy will require a change in our ideas of comfort, convenience and the good life. There are urgent issues of equity, both between rich and poor peoples now, and also between ourselves and our descendants. All these profound issues depend for their resolution on an adequate basis in science. Some say, if we are not really sure that bad things are happening, why bother imposing these drastic and costly changes on the world’s people? But others reply, by what right can we use scientific uncertainty as an excuse for failing to protect ourselves and our descendants from irreversible catastrophe?

Both of those positions accept that there is a real debate about the strength of the science, and effectively argue about the proper burden of proof, or degree of precaution that is justified. But there are plenty of voices on the extremes. For quite some time, the official scientific establishments, particularly in the Anglophone world, claimed that ‘the science is settled’, and ‘the debate is over’. At the opposite extreme are those, including some quite reputable scientists, who argue that nothing whatever has been proved about the long-term changes in climate that might be resulting from the current increase in the concentration of Carbon Dioxide. Between these extremes, the explanations of opposing views are not merely sociological. They become political and moral. Each side accuses the other of being corrupt. The ‘skeptics’ or ‘deniers’ are dismissed as either working for outside interests, industrial or ideological, or being grossly incompetent as scientists. In short, as being either prostitutes or cranks. In their turn, the ‘alarmists’ or ‘warmistas’ are accused of feathering their own nests as grant-gaining entrepreneurial scientists, playing along with their own dishonest ideological politicians. In their protestations of scientific objectivity, they are accused of the corruptions of hypocrisy.

In the classic philosophy of science, it was imagined that debates would be settled by a ‘crucial experiment’. The observations made by Eddington in 1919 confirmed Einstein’s general theory of relativity, tout court. Before that, Rutherford showed that the atom is nearly all empty space, with a massive nucleus and planetary electrons circling it. Such crisp, clean experiments are taken as characteristic of natural science, establishing its status as solid knowledge, superior to the mere opinions of the social sciences and humanities. Where such crucial experiments happen not to occur, as in the case of Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection, it is assumed that they would occur if we could devise them. For that is the essence of science.

When we come to the climate, there are indeed two classic, simple experiences that for some are as conclusive as Eddington’s observation of the planet Mercury and of the light from the star in the Hyades cluster. The first of these is the original model of a ‘greenhouse’ earth made by the Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius in 1896. And the second is a remarkable set of readings of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, taken on top of the Hawaiian volcano Mauna Loa, showing a steady rise from their inception in the 1950’s. Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced. Suffice to say that the application of the Arrhenius model to the actual conditions on earth, including all the effects that could modify the entry and exit of radiant energy, plus the storage of heat in the oceans, leaves plenty of room for debate for those that want it. And the Mauna Loa data extend only over a half-century; extrapolating that backwards or forward is again not entirely straightforward.

Hence the climate science debate is one where all the features that make natural science different from sociology, or indeed from politics, are weakened or absent. And in the course of that debate we have discovered a serious flaw in the prevailing philosophy of science: there is no explanation of honest error. Students of science never see a failed experiment or a mistaken theory; for them it is success and truth all the way. Only those who have done truly innovative research discover how intimately are success and failure, truth and error, connected. And so when a scientist finds him- or herself convinced of the truth of a particular theory, they have no framework for treating their erring opponent with respect. “I” am right, “you” are wrong, and by persisting in your error you demonstrate that your failings are moral as well as intellectual. In the ordinary course of scientific debate such attitudes are kept under control, but in the total, complex climate science debate they come to dominate.

The debate has passed its peak of intensity, as the failure of Copenhagen has taken the impetus out of the policy drive. But the rancour and bitterness are unresolved. There has been some softening of attitudes about the issue of global warming, but (so far as I can see) little softening of emotions about past adversaries. It is for that reason that my colleagues and I have made this unusual experiment, if you wish bringing Gandhi to science or even science to Gandhi. As we planned it, our hopes were modest indeed. We could not imagine attracting people with very hardened views on the other side. We know that political negotiations begin with intermediaries, then perhaps progress to members in adjacent rooms, eventually have principals all ensconced in a secret location, and only when it is all over do they meet in public. Of course people don’t trust and respect each other at the start; and they themselves are distrusted by their own side even for dealing with the enemy. Only gradually, with many fits and false starts, is trust built up.

So for our first little experiment, we brought together people who would at least talk to those we brought with opposing views. And of course, what is essential in such activities, all who are there agree that this is an important venture. When we saw how some very busy people have enthusiastically agreed to come from very long distances, we felt that this venture is indeed worthwhile. Of course we hope that by its success it will lead to others. We do not at all intend to ‘solve’ the climate science debate, or to reach a consensus on whether we must now mount a global campaign against Carbon Dioxide. That is to be left to other forums, organised from within the appropriate scientific institutions. If we can only get people talking, and eventually framing particular scientific questions on which agreement could in principle be reached, that will have been as great a success as we could hope for.

We would also like such a venture as this to be an example of the power of non-violence, even in science. The great culture heroes of the last half-century have been defined by non-violence: Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu, and now Aung San Suu Kyi. They all paid a price for their convictions, sometimes a heavy one. We note that none were white men, and none were scientists. This is not to say that non-violence has been totally absent from science. We all know of Einstein and his ambivalent relation to warfare; and there is the late Sir Joseph Rotblat, who gave up a career in science to found the Pugwash movement for East-West dialogue during the cold war. But if we search for scientists who have really lived out their non-violent convictions, we find two nonwhite women: Wangerai Maathai and Vandana Shiva.

That reflection brings me to the state of science itself. Those of an older generation remember a time when the prestige of science was unquestioned. Science would save the world, and scientists would do the saving. It is all different now, and the mutual denunciations of the scientists in the Climategate debate have not helped. One of the most important influences that drove me to a personal involvement in this debate was a report by our distinguished colleague Judith Curry, of a conversation with a student. This student was dismayed by the Climategate story that had just broken, and wondered whether this was the sort of career that she wanted to take up. We all know what happens to institutions when they fail to attract the brightest and the best young people. Slowly, perhaps, but surely, they atrophy and wither.

You see the connection. If ‘science’ comes to be seen by young people as the sort of institution where Climategate happens, and where scientists insult and condemn each other, its future is not bright. Of course, this negative reaction would happen only at the margins; but it is at the margins where we will find the really wonderful young people that we need. I cannot prescribe, indeed I can scarcely imagine, how the spirit of non-violence that has inspired the political world can be imported effectively into science. But I would argue that it is an attempt that is well worth making, even for the future of science itself.

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Latitude
February 21, 2011 5:01 pm

Dr. Ravetz, with what we know now about the science of climate change..
…you have left everyone with only two choices.
You either believe that the are stupid..
…or you believe they are smart
If they are stupid, they actually believe that science in spite of the evidence against it.
If they are smart, they are liars, crooks, and thieves.
I find it hard to believe they are stupid.

Geoff Sherrington
February 21, 2011 5:06 pm

Dr Ravetz,
You drop in now with talk of violence. This is a straw man. Think logic, not violence.
The discussion is about the proper application of science, the procedural stages of which are well known and have been for years.
I do find abundant illogic among the mainstram climatologists. Their choice of CO2 as a whipping boy on evidence still to be presented will perhaps make the annals of science history, but as example of how to do harm. One of the main departures from acceptability is the presistent, unscientific downplay of accuracy & precision.

Pamela Gray
February 21, 2011 5:06 pm

Talk about being called bad when I think I am pretty nice, I know how that feels. I’m a teacher. Nuf said about that.
It may not be the people who should be called bad. But certainly the effort to 1) hide raw data and methods, and 2) stifle the debate by gate-keeping journal submissions needs to be called bad, and consequented if necessary.

February 21, 2011 5:10 pm

[snip] Good to see you again, glad you’re still up to your old wiles and ways.

CRS, Dr.P.H.
February 21, 2011 5:20 pm

Thank you, Dr. Ravetz. You touch upon a very fundamental problem of “climate science,” namely, application of the scientific method to changes as vast as we observe in a planetary system.
How does one perform a case/control study with an entire planet? Well, you cannot. Therefore, climate science is built upon proxies, models, extrapolations, projections, and other very “soft” sciences, and not on experimentation.
Post-Climategate, we now know that the models have not properly accounted for the effects of clouds (Dr. Joel Norris’ presentation to Fermilab, “Cloud Feedbacks On Climate: A Challenging Scientific Problem,” 12 May, 2010), IR saturation, heat storage in the oceans, etc.
The whole effort needs to be scrapped, and if there is interest, re-started to investigate IF the climate is even changing due to man’s influence! I’m not sure how much of the existing database is useful, considering all of the corruption it has undergone. I used to believe in that stuff, before Climategate & some serious reconsideration.

Rob Z
February 21, 2011 5:26 pm

Most would argue the time for reconciliation has passed. That time ended with the proclamation that the science has been settled. The scientific trust of their colleagues has been destroyed. NO scientist would EVER say such a thing in light of the evidence. Perhaps Dr. Ravetz could regale us with the times he routinely talk about his data treatment in terms of “tricks” he used to “hide” the faults. That the leading “warmistas” are morally and scientifically bankrupt in addition to being corrupt is not an accusation but a proven fact. How hard would you fight to cover your errors?? To keep your status?? To keep your funding??? To keep the lie alive???!!!!
Dr. Ravetz, violent behavior is not limited to your definition. Tell us again that less CO2 is good for the starving poor of the world. A carbon tax is not only a wealth distribution technique (primarily going to governments) but a control mechanism to decide who lives or dies. Cancun, 2010 has shown us it’s all about money and control.
The “warmistas” greatest fear is that they will be (more like they are) the laughing stocks of the scientific world. Along with this, these “scientists” are so afraid that they won’t be able to get a job doing anything else. Have pity on those poor souls for they do not understand the nature of a scientific degree. This is why Steig is fighting so hard. It’s not for science..it’s for his image. Imagine another framed Nature cover, hanging on the wall outside an office, becoming a plaque of shame. Science has no place for practitioners that cannot admit their errors nor celebrate a colleagues triumph. I will say this: The purveyors of puke have been repeatedly warned. The scientific community is moving along without them. Regardless of who’s right or wrong, the debate with the “warmistas” is over. I have no time for liars, cheats and thieves.

Dan in California
February 21, 2011 5:28 pm

“The first of these is the original model of a ‘greenhouse’ earth made by the Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius in 1896. And the second is a remarkable set of readings of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, taken on top of the Hawaiian volcano Mauna Loa, showing a steady rise from their inception in the 1950’s. Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced.”
——————————————————————————-
Arrhenius explained what is known as the “Greenhouse Effect”. This does not automatically mean that the human race is required to not create greenhouse gasses. A thinking person can show that the increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has little effect because there is already enough CO2 to absorb all outgoing infrared in that band. More CO2 just lowers the altitude at which that happens.
It is easy to show the atmospheric concentration during the geologic past, in the Paleozoic era, when 10 times the current CO2 concentration corresponded with an ice age. This, in my opinion, shows just as clearly that: “Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced.”, to use Dr Ravetz’ words.
Also, skepticism is not “the other side” of an argument. It seems all science includes skepticism except climate science. The burden of proof before enacting political and financial controls is for climate science to show there is a problem.

Atomic Hairdryer
February 21, 2011 5:29 pm

I’d ask people to go easy on Dr Ravetz.
In my simplistic view, ‘post normal science’ is part of getting science to climb out of it’s ivory tower and understand the way the world really works. So making the best decisions we can based on uncertainty. The value of PNS is how best to communicate that uncertainty at the policy interface, along with best practice in conflict resolution.
One thing I think that is sometimes forgotten is that science is adversarial. The best example is probably the viva voce process where PhD candidates are expected to defend their beliefs to a hostile (or sceptical) panel. That’s adversarial and gets candidates to defend their work. If they can’t, then perhaps they have no business being in science, or business. Yet for some reason, climate science seems to have forgotten this process of testing faith, and instead calls for unquestioned belief in ‘peer review’, or opinion from duly appointed or annointed ‘climate scientists’, who may have studied a whole variety of differing disciplines. That isn’t PNS, or science, it’s just PR. Personally I think PNS has value in how to deal with conflict situations where there is conflicting information and opinion, but it absolutely does not and cannot mean climate scientists can ignore the basics of science, or the scientific method. If scientists try that, then they just lose more credibility.

Werner Brozek
February 21, 2011 5:34 pm

“Scarface says:
February 21, 2011 at 2:00 pm
The science of AGW is wrong. There is no common ground. Evidence is everything.”
I agree with the above. However there may be common ground on what to do about it. In our province, there are plans to spend 2 billion dollars on carbon capture over the next few years. I am totally against this and have had several letters to the editor of our paper published over the last 15 months expressing this point of view in one way or another. However easily accessible sources of energy are running low and pollution is associated with tar sands, etc. In my opinion, there are much better and more helpful ways to reduce CO2 emissions into the air than to throw two billion dollars into the ground on carbon capture. Examples would be expanding rapid transit, helping homeowners buy more insulation to reduce heating bills, encouraging flextime so the main streets are not clogged up at 4:30 when everyone seems to be leaving work, etc.
So while people may totally disagree on AGW, people would likely agree that reducing heating bills or wait times in traffic would benefit all, regardless what your views are on CO2.

Chris D.
February 21, 2011 5:36 pm

Is this our same Willis “Kill the IPCC and go jump in the lake if you don’t like that language” Eschenbach that you’re referring to? Yes, civility in the climate debate.

Coldfinger
February 21, 2011 5:37 pm

The interesting thing about the Mauna Loa record, mentioned by Ravetz as supporting the CAGW case, is that it actually shows CO2 pp variation results from temperature variation, rather than causing it. Don’t take my word for it, go look. See those annual peaks and troughs on the line? Summer and winter.

Mark Twang
February 21, 2011 5:39 pm

I would like to point out that the danger of scientists engaging in violence – aside from certifiable nuts like the Unabomber – is minimal.
Not minimal is the danger of people taking messages like “we (they) are killing the polar bears” and acting on them.
When you define human activity in the aggregate as the thing that is endangering life on this planet, it is but a small step to identifying those groups of humans who are at fault and taking violent action against them.
People like Monbiot who opine that flying across the Atlantic is now the moral equivalent of pedophilia may never do anything about it themselves, except to continue to fly across the Atlantic to promote this view. But it is not difficult to imagine someone a little more crazed and a little less restrained doing something horrible.
My own skepticism has always been toward the idea that a doomsday scenario about what might happen fifty or a hundred years down the road can motivate people to change what they’re doing today. Given that reality, and the frustration of hard-core environmental doomists at the lack of what they would see as an appropriate response, it is not hard to see how some people might decide that the thing to do is blow up a few airplanes or power plants or corporate offices to drive home the point.
We’ve already seen this in the case of the Discovery Channel loon, who was perfectly willing to kill people for the sake of “the froggies”. That he didn’t do so before getting killed himself was not down to him.

Theo Goodwin
February 21, 2011 5:41 pm

You can deny each of Ravetz’s sentences and I will affirm that. However, to be of some use to this forum, let me select one of them:
“And so when a scientist finds him- or herself convinced of the truth of a particular theory, they have no framework for treating their erring opponent with respect.”
Go to Amazon on the following link:
http://www.amazon.com/Theories-Things-W-V-Quine/dp/0674879260/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1298336928&sr=1-10
Buy the book. If you are interested in scientific method, you will never regret it. However, it is not for the faint of heart. Read the essay that has the same name as the title. You will see that Quine is working on the problem of how to deal with two “total physical theories of everything” that are logically incompatible but empirically equivalent. How could you give more respect to your opponent than to recognize that your conflicting theories of everything are empirically equivalent? Quine first posed this problem in the first or second Chapter of his masterpiece “Word and Object” (1960). In other words, Ravetz is really quite ignorant of the most important studies on scientific method, the studies that have dominated the last 60 years. While Quine was active, at least into the Nineties, he was recognized the world over as the most important philosopher of the second half of the twentieth century.
As regards scientific method, the problem with the Warmista is that either they are ignorant of scientific method, like Ravetz, or else they understand it but refuse to discuss it because they know that their own so-called science has never existed within the bounds of scientific method. I cannot ascertain that Warmista understand what a physical hypothesis is. They surely do not work with them. (They work with hunches but they are furious if someone says so.) This matter of the need for physical hypotheses that can explain forcings is explained to the satisfaction of everyone, scientist or not, in Roy Spencer’s “The Great Global Warming Blunder.” I would really like to see Ravetz address Spencer’s main thesis. I do not believe that Ravetz has even a basic understanding of what Spencer says. Yet Spencer’s book should be the starting point for all discussions of forcings at this time.
Once you have read Quine, then you can take up Wolfgang Stegmuller and, much better, Isaac Levi.
Finally, Ravetz’s description of Willis Eschenbach strikes me as complete and total projection. I am not aware of any hostility shown by Willis to the sainted Judith. He might have said things such as “Would you please address this question about whatever?” But that is as rough as he got.

February 21, 2011 5:44 pm

I got a lot of “When did you stop beating your wife?” vibe from this article. Frankly, I think it is a bit rich. To start: What violence? The violence is all advocated from the alarmist side: 10:10 videos, calls for “deniers” and now even “heretics” to be tried for crimes against humanity, and so on. The add actual non-physical violence: sackings, refusal to hire, refusal to fund legitimate research, the assault upon people by confiscating their money (the basis of their life quality) based on a dishonest theory, attempting to reduce CO2 and thereby reduce food supply, using biofuels to send food costs out of reach of the poorest, these things fit my definition of violence: force to cause damage or compel others to cause damage to themselves. Physical violence is when the force is physical: armed power, fists, etc. Nonphysical violence is when the force is verbal threats, intimidation, committee decisions, etc.
Now can Dr Ravetz define his use of the word “violence”? It seems to amount to little more than hearing words he doesn’t like. Well no amount of mere insults or swearing counts as violence in my book. Nasty behaviour provokes nasty reactions, that’s almost a law of human behaviour. His alarmist cronies have behaved with the utmost nastiness and dishonesty, attempting to wreck lives of those who disagree with them, etc. – i.e. real violence. And now the chickens have come home to roost, they are trying to deflect the righteous anger that now exists towards them by mislabelling it violence. That in itself is defamatory against those they apply it to. In short, as soon as the consequences of their own evil acts become apparent, they bung a tinfoil halo on their heads and tut-tut the bad attitudes of those whom they have attacked. Pure hypocrisy. No amount of contempt for Ravetz can equal what he deserves.
The there is the fact that we are being hectored here by a scientific ignoramus. He writes:

When we come to the climate, there are indeed two classic, simple experiences that for some are as conclusive as Eddington’s observation of the planet Mercury and of the light from the star in the Hyades cluster. The first of these is the original model of a ‘greenhouse’ earth made by the Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius in 1896. And the second is a remarkable set of readings of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, taken on top of the Hawaiian volcano Mauna Loa, showing a steady rise from their inception in the 1950’s. Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced.

Well let’s see: The precession of Mercury: The above is historically wrong, the anomalous precession was long-known, probably even before Eddington was a toddler. But that aside, Relativity made a clear, numerical prediction about the rate of precession of the perihelion of Mercury, and the facts fitted. Although people don’t understand this concept since Popper’s erroneous theory of science, that is a confirmation of the theory (

February 21, 2011 5:51 pm

OOPS, previous comment posted itself before I finished writing it. Continued:
the confirmation is not a proof, but it is evidence in favour of the theory.
So how does that stack up against Ravetz’s examples?
A model of a greenhouse earth is a theory. That thing to the left of this sentence is a full stop, or “period” for you Americans. We liken that to relativity. But where is the observation that corresponds to the anomalous precession of Mercury’s perihelion? Dr Ravetz? Huh? And the “second”? A series of observations showing CO2 rising. That’s another full stop there. Where is the connection to anything contained in Arrhenius’ theory in that bare observation? Dr Ravetz, you are convinced by that? Go and learn some science. You are too drop-dead ignorant to be wasting our time here.

bob
February 21, 2011 5:58 pm

I don’t see how science or scientific views can be negotiated. As a matter of fact, that cannot happen and science be meaningful .
Of course, the real solution is for scientists of all stripes to acquire some manners. Yep, it even makes sense to invoke rules in scientific discussions like Robert’s Rules of Order.
On the other hand, how can you expect manners or observance of rules when some scientists will not show their work or data? I thought that was rule #1.

jmrSudbury
February 21, 2011 6:10 pm

> “The ‘skeptics’ or ‘deniers’ are dismissed as either working for outside interests, industrial or ideological, or being grossly incompetent as scientists. In short, as being either prostitutes or cranks.”
I think you got that one backwards. It is the alarmists by seeking grants from politicians, who are bolstered by oil companies looking for cap and trade, who are working for outside interests, industrial or ideological, or being grossly incompetent as scientists (poor statistical methods, cherry picking data, hiding the decline).
> “Nothing could be more convincing than that combination, except to those who do not wish to be convinced.”
It is the job of the scientist to question everything. It should be in their nature to not wish to be convinced.
> “Students of science never see a failed experiment or a mistaken theory; for them it is success and truth all the way”
Then they are not acting like scientists. You, like the alarmists in general, are taking the debate too far. It is science and should not need to get into morals. That is what politics are for. Global warming is not an ordinary debate because some have chosen to follow the political route way too early in the debate. It is these politics that give rise to the bitterness which is a lack of objectivity.
John M Reynolds

Theo Goodwin
February 21, 2011 6:15 pm

The quality of comments on this forum is amazingly high. The trolls can get no traction at all.
Kudos to all y’all commentators and even more kudos to Anthony.

Pamela Gray
February 21, 2011 6:17 pm

Atomic Hairdryer, God forbid we ever “return” to post-normal science. There is nothing new under the Sun and this is one of them. Specious cause and effect warnings from “what if” models are the cauldron stew and divinations of Salem Witch trial lore when not tied unmercifully and unemotionally to the gold standard of observations, plausible mechanisms, and mathematical proofs.

February 21, 2011 6:19 pm

With all due respect and civility, I have neither time nor patience for this post-normal scientist.

Martin457
February 21, 2011 6:28 pm

I don’t care. When people sink as low as Hansen, I will consider them trash. Although I will probably not be allowed to say what I think of this sub-human anti-humanity person, I’ll still read along.

Pops
February 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Is truth extreme?

old engineer
February 21, 2011 6:33 pm

I must admit, I am astonished at the vehemence and anger directed at someone who is merely suggesting that more could be gained by talking WITH one’s adversaries than AT them.
He has presented some examples from the political world that have worked. He says he thinks it is worth a try in the science arena as well, particularly with the current arguments about global warming.
Before criticizing his views, my suggestion is to learn something about non-violent communications. I suggest the book “Nonviolent Communication, A Language of Life” by Marshall B. Rosenberg, Ph.D; ISBN 1-892005-03-4; Pudddle Dancer Press,2003. It certainly changed my ideas about how to communicate with others.
Thank You Dr. Ravetz for your efforts. As you can see from the comments to your post, convincing people that non-violent communications is the way to move forward, is as hard as convincing the alarmists that there should be discussions about their conclusions.

Doug in Seattle
February 21, 2011 6:40 pm

The debate in my mind is between those who would use science to control and those who see science as a path to truth.
I did not find this theme is Dr. Ravetz’s experiment. I saw that his experiment was more about dialogue than truth, he having already (it appeared) decided that CO2=Chaos was the truth.

David Davidovics
February 21, 2011 6:46 pm

That was a long read….
It seems to me that he is almost praying for the salvation of his institution. As some one with a sharp head and lots of life in front of me, I sometimes wonder if a carrier in the sciences would be fulfilling. I might even be able to undo some of the damage done by the the warmists – then reality comes knocking. Frankly, I don’t think I want to be associated with scientists anymore.
I agree that it was once believed that science could save the world and scientists would do the saving but its not a graceful fall when you realize you cannot walk on water and there is no one to blame but yourself. Non violence and science have their place, but so does humility.