Guest post by Ira Glickstein
Albert Einstein was a great theoretical physicist, with all the requisite mathematical tools. However, he rejected purely mathematical abstraction and resorted to physical analogy for his most basic insights. For example, he imagined a man in a closed elevator being transported to space far from any external mass and then subjected to accelerating speeds. That man could not tell the difference between gravity on Earth and acceleration in space, thus, concluded Einstein, gravity and acceleration are equivalent, which is the cornerstone of his theory of relativity. Einstein never fully bought into the mainstream interpretation of quantum mechanics that he and others have called quantum weirdness and spooky action at a distance.
So, if some Watts Up With That? readers have trouble accepting the atmospheric “greenhouse” effect because of the lack of a good physical analogy, you are in fine company.
For example, in the discussion following Willis Eschenbach’s excellent People Living in Glass Planets, a commenter “PJP”, challenged the atmospheric “greenhouse” effect:
“The incoming energy (from the sun) you express in w/m^2, lets simplify it even more and say that energy is delivered in truckloads. Lets say we get 2 truckloads per hour. … when we come to your semi-transparent shell [representing greenhouse gases (GHG) in the atmosphere], you are still getting two truckloads per hour, but you say that these two truckloads are delivered to both the earth and to the shell — that makes 4 truckloads/hr. Where did the extra two truckloads come from?”
In that thread, I posted a comment with an analogy of truckloads of orange juice, representing short-wave radiation from Sun to Earth, and truckloads of blueberry juice, representing longwave radiation between Earth and the Atmosphere and back out to Space. A later commenter, “davidmhoffer” said “Ira, That was a brilliant explanation. …”
This Post is a further elaboration of my physical analogy, using a pitching machine and yellow and purple balls in place of the truckfulls of juice.
Graphic 1 shows the initial conditions. The Sun is a ball pitching machine that, when we turn it on, will throw a steady stream of yellow balls towards the tray of a weight scale, which represents the Earth. The reading on the scale is analogized to “temperature” and, with the Sun turned off, reads “0” arbitrary units.
TURN ON THE “SUN”
Graphic 2 shows what happens when the Sun is turned on and there are no GHG in the Atmosphere. The stream of yellow balls impact the tray atop the weight scale and compress the springs within the well-damped scale until equilibrium is reached. The scale reads “1”. This is analogous to the temperature the Earth would reach in the absence of GHG.
The balls bounce off the tray and, for illustrative purposes, turn purple in color. This is my way of showing that Sun radiative energy is mostly in the “shortwave” visible and near-visible region (about 0.3μ to 1μ) and that radiative energy from the warmed Earth is mostly in the “longwave” infrared region (about 6μ to 20μ). The Greek letter “μ” (mu) stands for a unit of length called the “micron” which is a millionth of a meter.
Since, at this stage of my physical analogy, there are no GHG in the Atmosphere, the purple balls go off into Space where they are not heard from again. You can assume the balls simply “bounce” off like reflected light in a mirror, but, in the actual case, the energy in the visible and near-visible light from the Sun is absorbed and warms the Earth and then the Earth emits infrared radiation out towards Space. Although “bounce” is different from “absorb and re-emit” the net effect is the same in terms of energy transfer.
If we assume the balls and traytop are perfectly elastic, and if the well-damped scale does not move once the springs are compressed and equilibrium is reached, there is no work done to the weight scale. Therefore, Energy IN = Energy OUT. The purple balls going out to Space have the same amount of energy as the yellow balls that impacted the Earth.
ADD GHG TO THE “ATMOSPHERE”
Graphic 3 shows what happens when we introduce GHG into the Atmosphere. The yellow balls, representing shortwave radiation from the Sun to which GHG are transparent, whiz right through and impact the weight scale and push it down as before.
However, the purple balls, representing longwave radiation from the Earth, are intercepted by the Atmosphere. In my simplified physical analogy, the Atmosphere splits each purple ball in two, re-emiting one half-ball back towards the Earth and the other half-ball out to Space. Again, you can assume that half of the balls “bounce” off the Atmosphere back to Earth like reflected light from a half-silvered mirror and the other half pass through out towards Space. In the actual case, it is “absorb and re-emit half in each direction” but the net effect is the same in terms of energy transfer.
OK, here is the part where you should pay close attention. The purple half-balls that are re-emitted by the Atmosphere towards Earth impact the tray of the weight scale and press against the springs with about half the force of the original yellow balls. So, at this stage, when equilibrium is reached, the well-damped scale reads “1.5” arbitrary units.
But, we are not done yet. The purple half-balls are absorbed by the Earth, and re-emitted towards Space. Then they are re-absorbed by the Atmosphere and once again split into quarter-balls, half of which head back down to Earth and re-impact the weight scale. Now it reads “1.75”. As you can see, the purple balls continue to get split into ever smaller balls as they bounce back and forth and half head out to Space. The net effect on the weight scale is the sum of 1 (from the yellow balls) + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 and so on (from the purple balls). That expression has a limit of “2”, which is approximately what the scale will read when equilibrium is reached.
Again, the well-damped scale does not move once the springs are compressed and equilibrium is reached, so there is no work done to the weight scale. Therefore, Energy IN = Energy OUT. The purple balls going out to Space have the same amount of energy as the yellow balls that impacted the Earth. But the “temperature” of the Earth, as analogized by the reading on the weight scale, has increased.
DOUBLE THE GHG IN THE “ATMOSPHERE”
Graphic 4 is the final step in my physical analogy. Let us double the GHG in the Atmosphere. (NOTE: I am assuming that the doubling includes ALL the GHG, most especially water vapor, and not simply CO2!) This is represented by putting a second layer of Atmosphere into the physical analogy.
The purple balls emitted towards Space by the first layer of the Atmosphere are intercepted by the second layer, where they are absorbed, and smaller balls are re-emited in each direction. The downward heading balls from the upper atmosphere are intercepted by the lower Atmosphere and half is re-emitted down towards the weight scale that represents Earth. Once again, they compress the springs in the weight scale increasing the reading a bit, and are re-emitted back up. The purple balls get halved and bounce around up and down between Earth and the two layers of the Atmosphere, further increasing the reading on the scale once equilibrium is reached.
Again, the well-damped scale does not move once the springs are compressed and equilibrium is reached, so there is no work done to the weight scale. Therefore, Energy IN = Energy OUT. The purple balls going out to Space have the same amount of energy as the yellow balls that impacted the Earth. But the “temperature” of the Earth, as analogized by the reading on the weight scale, has increased due to the doubling of GHG in the Atmosphere.
WHAT I LEFT OUT OF THE PHYSICAL ANALOGY
Any simplified analogy is, by its very nature, much less than the very complex situation it is meant to analogize. Here is some of what is left out:
- My purple balls are re-emitted in only two directions, either up or down. In the real world, longwave radiation is emitted in all directions, including sideways.
- My purple balls are all totally absorbed by the Atmosphere and re-emitted. In the real-world, a substantial amount of longwave radiation is re-emitted from the Earth and the Atmosphere in the 9μ to 12μ band where the Atmosphere is nearly-transparent. A substantial portion of the radiation from Earth and the Atmosphere thus passes through the Atmosphere to Space without interception.
- My physical analogy addresses only radiative energy transfer. In the real-world, energy transfer from the Sun to Earth and Earth to Space is purely radiative. However, the Earth transfers a considerable amount of energy to the Atmosphere via convection and conduction, in the form of winds, precipitation, thunderstorms, etc. These effects are absent from my analogy.
- I represent the Atmosphere as a single shell, when, in fact, it has many layers with lots of interaction between layers.
- I represent doubling of GHG as adding another shell, when, in fact, doubling of GHG, if it occured (and if it included not just CO2 but also a doubling of water vapor and other GHG) would increase the density of those gases in the Atmosphere and not necessarily increase its height significantly.
- In my analogy, all the energy from the Sun strikes and is absorbed by the Earth. In the real-world, up to a third of it is reflected back to Space from light-colored surfaces (albedo) such as snow, ice, clouds, and the white roof of Energy Secretary Chu’s home :^). If a moderately warmer Earth, due to increased GHG, evaporates more water vapor into the atmosphere, and if that causes more clouds to form, that could increase the Earth’s albedo to counteract a substantial portion of the additional warming.
I am sure WUWT readers will find other issues with my physical analogy. However, the point of this posting is to convince those WUWT readers, who, like Einstein, need a physical analogy before they will accept any mathematical abstraction, that the atmospheric “greenhouse” effect is indeed real, even though estimates of climate sensitivity to doubling of CO2 are most likely way over-estimated by the official climate Team. When I was an Electrical Engineering undergrad, I earned a well-deserved “D” in Fields and Waves because I could not create a physical analogy in my overly-anal mind of Maxwell’s equations or picture the “curl” or any of the other esoteric stuff in that course. Therefore, those WUWT readers who need a physical analogy are in great company – Einstein and Glickstein :^).
I plan to make additional postings in this series, addressing some implications of the 9μ to 12μ portion of the longwave radiation band where the Atmosphere is nearly-transparent, as well as other atmospheric “greenhouse” issues. I look forward to your comments!
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In reply to Davidmhoffer (circa February 25, 2011 at 4:13am);
Since someone else still seems to be interested in flogging this room temperature horse I might as well do so as well. In between bouts of shoveling the accumulated Global Warming from my driveway up here in upstate New York I have read your post with interest.
Thank you for your insight let me rephrase it to see if I have understood it correctly;
The AGW theory (as posited by Ira, the UN IPCC, and many others) is that GHGs are able to redistribute the energy into different altitudes in the atmosphere. This materially changes the “speed of heat” through the atmosphere and causes the surface/atmosphere system to achieve a new higher energy state near the surface (i.e. melting icecaps, etc. etc. etc. etc.).
Is hope this is an accurate summary ? Please correct me as necessary.
To quote your insight;
“a perturbation of the system followed by a new steady state”, I am sorry but in my experience the “perturbation” of a system (.visa. .ve. energy) requires “extra energy”, and a “new steady state” requires that this “extra energy” be forever after present, otherwise the perturbation becomes a temporary effect (i.e. the WEATHER, it’s been in all the papers).
So as I see it some interpretations of the greenhouse gas hypothesis require that;
The thermal mass of the oceans (huge), the rocks (big) and the gases (tiny) all achieve the equilibrium temperature that is determined by the miraculous ability of GHGs to absorb, retain, and also simultaneously emit IR radiation. This is very much similar to my analogy of the mosquitoes hitting your windshield being able to determine the speed of your vehicle.
An alternative explanation (not part of the much acclaimed consensus) COULD BE;
Energy arrives from the Sun, thereafter the massive thermal capacity of the oceans and the rocks accumulates this heat. The speed of heat through these portions of the system and their thermal capacities determine the “average temperature” thereafter. Very complex interactions between clouds, humidity, albedo, etc. etc. cause a chaotic system to occur. We used to call this the weather, but once some people got a hold of computers that could calculate “energy gains” they decided they had this all figured out and could tell us what would happen in 100 years with 99% accuracy (a mister Hansen comes to mind). I freely admit that I do not have the ability to tell what will happen in 100 years. But of course I am not seeking other folk’s money to pretend that I can.
Here is just a short back of the envelop calculation for the folks that might still be open to the the flaws in the Greenhouse Effect;
The time for a photon to be absorbed and converted to thermal energy: probably less than a microsecond, buts let’s say its 100 microseconds. It’s probably the same going the other way, i.e. thermal to photon.
The time for a photon to travel all the way to the top of the atmosphere (~5 miles * speed of light) = (30,000 feet * 1 nanosec/foot) = 30 microseconds.
So each pass through the atmosphere by a photon takes maybe 130 microseconds. Lets insert some wiggle room (to account for calculation errors) and say that each pass takes 1 millisecond. So if a photon has been stricken with the dreaded back/back/back/back….radiation affliction it might be delayed by 10 milliseconds.
And this can cause a higher equilibrium temperature while the sun light striking any surface of the Earth cycles from zero to a whole bunch every 86,400,000 milliseconds ?
I hereby consider this room temperature horse to be totally flogged……..
Cheers, Kevin.
Ira,
wayne’s question gave me an idea. Your juice trucks and your physical model visualize the process by which CO2 absorbs and re-emmits photons. But that isn’t wayne’s question. What wayne is asking for is a way to visualize how the process translates into temperature increase. He asked if it was “delayed cooling”. And it sort of is, but that’s not quite it. But I think I came up with a pretty simple visual that explains it. I’d like to send it to you after I get it drawn, probably tomorrow, and see if you think it makes sense. ira @ur momisugly techie.com ?? wayne, if you give have an email address to share I’ll send it to you as well as it was sort of your idea.
The truth is that
a) some warming is caused by CO2 but nobody has any quantified measurements in the relevant range, i.e. from 0,02% to 0.05%. Experiments shown to me so far are all insufficient and/or without relevant value.
b) some radiative cooling is caused as CO2 also has quite a few absorptions in the 0-5 um range, but again nobody has any quantified mesurements of that
c) cooling is also caused by CO2 due to its participation in the process of photo synthesis. To carry out photo synthesis and “growth” you need warmth, hence the reason why forests do not grow at higher altitudes and latitudes.
the question is what is the net effect?
Clue: LOOK AT THE PATTERN OF MODERN WARMING
at the various weather stations. If warming is caused by greenhouse gases, you would expect minimum temperature to show more rise.
Yet, it does not!!!
henry@georgwsmith
So why are we here? What did I learn at WUWT?
We are here because we want to learn why people have said that more CO2 is bad.
From the beginning (where I believed more Co2 is bad a la Al Gore) I have now arrived at a point where I believe more carbon dioxide is not bad, it is also not only good, in fact IT IS BETTER….for everybody….
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok
Is that not amazing?
Sure, David, send it along to ira@ur momisuglytechie.com. advTHANKSance!
I thought of another anology that may help wayne and Kevin (or not). Say you have a bathtub with a slightly clogged drain. You turn on the water full-force and the water level rises. The rate of water going down the drain depends on the pressure, so, as the water level rises, the water drains a bit faster until, with a foot of water in the tub, the rate of water coming in is exactly the same as the rate of water going out, and the tub stays at 12 inches forever, so long as the rate coming in and the clog in the drain remain constant. OK so far?
Now, if you increase the clog in the drain a bit, the rate of water going out will decrease slightly, and you will have a bit more water coming in than going out. As a result, the water level will rise a bit, increasing the pressure, and that will increase the rate at which the water drains out of the tub. At some point, say 13 inches, the rate of inflow and outflow will be equal.
OK, the rate of water coming in represents the rate of shortwave (visible and near-visible light) energy from the Sun coming in to the Earth. The level of water in the tub represents the amount of heat energy stored in the Earth system (temperature of the mass of the oceans, land, atmosphere, …). The rate of water going out represents the rate of longwave (far IR radiation) going out of the Earth’s Atmosphere into Space.
The clog in the drain represents the level of GHGs that slow down the rate of energy loss from Earth to Space. Increase that clog a bit, and, all else being equal, the water level will rise until the extra pressure restores the rate of water going out and stabilizes at a new, higher level. Increase GHGs a bit, and, all else being equal, the Earth’s average temperature (of the mass of the oceans, land, atmosphere, …) will rise until the extra longwave radiation restores the rate of energy going out and stabilizes at a new, higher level.
Of course, all else is not equal. When temperatures rise there may be more water vapor evaporated into the Atmosphere and that may result in more clouds and, if clouds have a net cooling effect (as I think they do) that may reduce the rate of incoming shortwave radiation and thus reduce incoming energy rates such that the temperatures will not rise as high. On the other hand, more water vapor in the Atmosphere, with H2O being the most important GHG, may further slow the rate of energy loss from Earth the Space and cause further temperature increase.
The official climate Team says that water vapor feedback has a net positive effect, which is why they estimate the sensitivity of doubling CO2 as high as they do, +2ºC to +5ºC. Some prominent skeptics estimate CO2 sensitivity as four to ten times less, +0.25ºC to +1ºC. But, from what I have read, all climate experts, including prominent skeptics, estimate CO2 sensitivity to be positive.
Now, I am not a climate scientist (and I do not even play one on TV or at WUWT :^), so I cannot be sure about any of this (and I doubt even climate scientists can be sure, witness the wide differences in their estimates and predictions). However, I am a System Engineer who is used to dealing with very complex military avionics systems with extremely complex subsystems and components and feedbacks. I am used to dealing with differing estimates from experts in various domains of communications, navigation, and computer technology, human factors, aerodynamics, and so on. My conclusions are based on my experiences and the available data, and I have a fairly good track record with complex systems, but none of them were related to climate.
The experiences of WUWT commenters differs from mine and you may have access to different data, so we may each reach different conclusions. The absolute truth will not be known for a century, if ever, but we may get some good indications if the coming decades see stabilization of temperatures despite what seems inevitable CO2 increases, which will argue for a much lower level of CO2 sensitivity than estimated by the official climate Team.
NONE of the above argues that moderately rising levels of CO2 and/or moderate temperature increases are bad. Indeed, they will certainly be beneficial for some portion of the Earth’s population, perhaps a majority. This thread is strictly dedicated to showing that the Atmospheric “greenhouse” effect does operate to keep the temperature ranges on Earth in the livable range, and that GHG are esssential to that purpose.
Ira,
I sent the slide deck to you at that address, please let me know if you got it or not. Once I got it done, I took my own run through it and thought hmmm… wayne’s “delayed cooling” isn’t quite right, but its awfull darn close!
[SNIP – Duplicate comment]
Ira says,
But, from what I have read, all climate experts, including prominent skeptics, estimate CO2 sensitivity to be positive.
Henry@Ira
You cannot rely on that. Here, you have to come with results. We need actual measurements with actual results. [SNIP – See Godwin’s Law – Ira]
We know that most of the increase in CO2 occurred during the past 30 or 40 years. So, if you are right we should see some warming. Now carefully read my report, here.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/assessment-of-global-warming-and-global-warming-caused-by-greenhouse-forcings-in-pretoria-south-africa
the finding is: there is no warming. Mean temps. have stayed exactly the same over the past 37 years. …. Max. temps have been rising but at the same time minimum temps have been falling. I found the same in La Paz, Bolivia during the dry months there. It is the same in Spain. Willis checked Armagh in Northern Ireland (where they records going back 200 years).
There is no warming caused by CO2 or by an increase in GHG’s in general.
The reason for that is probably that the radative cooling by CO2 (as proven) and the cooling caused by nature due to CO2 (by taking part in photo synthesis, as proven) cancels the warming that is caused by the CO2…..
Now, unfortunately, unless you have different measurements, you cannot claim that I am wrong.
FYI
Apparently since 1987, there has not been as much ice in the Ostsee (the sea between Poland and Scandinavia). If the cold weather there continues, you soon will be able to walk from Poland to Sweden.
Just to sign off here:
Science is not like politics, or elections or the number of votes for a person or position. In science you really only need one man who happens to be right……
Your argument has a logical fallacy, IMHO. Example: All experts say computers are made of metals and plastics. Therefore, an increase in cost of these raw materials will have the effect of increasing the cost of computers. However, over the past 30 years, the cost of computers has decreased, despite an increase in the cost of the raw materials. Therefore, the experts are wrong, and computers are not made of metals and plastics.
Global mean temperatures are affected by many factors, mostly natural cycles, but also including levels of GHG, including CO2. The fact that temperatures have stabilized and even decreased over the past decade and a half, while CO2 continues its rapid rise, is an indication that CO2 sensitivity as been overestimated by the official climate Team, but it does not mean that CO2 has a zero or negative effect.
In my example, the cost of raw materials is undoubtedly a factor in the cost of computers, but, despite an increase in that aspect of cost, other, stronger factors, such as the efficiency of mass production, distribution, online sales, and other cost-cutting effects fueled by competition, have reduced the net cost.
Ira, your model takes it as generally accepted science that the CO2 molecule is opaque to infra red and transparent to UV and visible light. The facts are: it is not transparent at a number of places from 0 to 5 um where the sun shines. You can check that. I have shown you that they can actually measure (some of ) this radiation as it is mirrored back again from the moon. Nobody has actually proven scientifically that the warming (due to entrapment of earth’s radiation between 14-15) is bigger than the cooling (due to deflection of the sun’s radiation at various places between 0 and 5 um). In addition, as also shown to you, the carbon dioxide causes cooling due to its participation in photo synthesis.
so where are the test results that would prove to me what the net effect is of the warming and cooling of the CO2 in the atmosphere? What they actually did at the IPCC is look at the increase in warming since 1750 and then correlate this to an increase in GHG’s and the CO2 since 1750. Then they came up with a “value” for forcing. But THAT IS PUTTING THE HORSE BEHIND THE CARRIAGE. There were no test results (that I could find)
Check my post here.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok
wayne
I’ve posted an article and series of slides in response to your question about “delayed cooling” here. I think that may be a reasonable term in fact, but this should provide you with a more detailed depiction of what happens (IMHO) and hopefully answers your question.
http://knowledgedrift.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/co2-exactly-how-does-it-warm-the-planet/
HenryP;
so where are the test results that would prove to me what the net effect is of the warming and cooling of the CO2 in the atmosphere?>>>
There are plenty of test results that are credible in the IPCC reports. I long since began accepting Doubling CO2 = 3.7 watts/m2 as being a reasonable approximation. My quibble is the misleading manner in which the credible testing is then presented. They calculate a 1 degree temperature increase as a result, but only in the fine print do you learn that isn’t at earth surface, it is at the “effective black body temperature” of earth, which is about 35 degrees colder than earth surface. Then they state in the fine print that this may not correlate to changes in earth surface temperature. Then they proceed to discuss earth surface temperature as if it does. They document that the effect is logarithmic, but then construct economic “scenarios” based on various temperature increases, carefully ignoring any mention of just how massive an amount of oil would have to be burned to achieve that.
You are correct, CO2 has narrow absorption bands near 2μ, 3μ, 4μ, and 5μ which are in the part of the near-IR and mid-IR spectrum where the Sun radiates. However, since the Sun’s radiation peaks at around 0.5μ, the amount of radiation in those outlying and narrow bands is greatly diminished. So, I accept your point that CO2 does reflect a small amount of Sunlight back to Space, preventing it from warming Earth. Thus, increasing levels of CO2 will increase that reflection. But, IMHO, that factor is so small it in not significant in the larger picture.
The amounts of energy reflected by CO2 to Space are so small, compared to the amounts of energy in the approximately 12μ to 17μ LW band that are reflected back to Earth that the conclusions are scientifically accepted and correctly so IMHO. As for the energy absorbed in photosynthesis when CO2 (which as I wrote on WUWT is PLANT FOOD) is taken up by plants does cool the Earth and absorb CO2. However, when the plants are consumed as food by animals, or when they die and rot, or when they are burned as fossil fuels, both the CO2 and energy are returned to the Atmosphere. Therefore, over the long term, the photosynthetic cooling and CO2 sequestration effects are cancelled out.
Bottom Line Henry: I am on your side in that I do not think there is any kind of Global Warming “tipping point” or “runaway warming” crisis, nor has there been one. The official climate Team has distorted the temperature record and the science behind the Atmospheric “greenhouse” effect in a way that violates academic integrity. But, that does not mean everything they say is wrong. Even a stopped clock is correct twice every day :^)
Thanks Dave, I read and highly recommend the CO2 posting on your blog. I also recommend your humorous and all too-true Physicist and Climatologist topic, as well as the other climate-related materials on your blog. THANKS!
Henry@Ira
Most recentlty they also discovered absorptions of CO2 in the UV range, which they now actually use to find CO2 and measure it on other planets. You forgot about that.
The absorption band of Co2 at 2 and in the 4-5 range is not that small. From a few good graphs, you are able to see that it does eat in the sun’s output. And although the sunshine intensity is low at between 4-5, that radiation is in fact very hot. A lot of the sunshine when measured in W/m2 is still in IR (43-45%). Here, in Africa, you can not stand in the sun for longer than 5 minutes. And then you look for cover. It is too hot. Admittedly, CO2 also absorbs between 14 and 15 (not 12-17). But water vapor also absorbs here as does oxygen/ozone. How do you disentangle that?
Another interesting observation I made here (in Africa) is that the heat on the skin from the sun decreases as humidity rises. (clouds do the same thing, of course),
So this confirms my observation that without the CO2 in the atmosphere even more heat would be slammed on top of us. So my question is: how much cooling and how much warming is caused by the CO2 in the atmosphere?
Your argument about the cooling caused by vegetation made some sense to me. However, it is also true that people have made living spaces in places that were once desert or semi desert. Las Vegas and Johannesburg are examples. Johannesburg is now a city that has the most trees in Africa. They brought water in and planted the trees. So your argument there also falls away and now (the last 50 years or so) you do have to take into account the cooling caused by (more) vegetation. Note that earth has become a lot greener during the past few decades (which is good).
Henry@David
there are no real test results. Ira’s argument that the “cooling caused by CO2″ is neglegible is what I have heard often, but there are no test results from real experiments. Everyone repeats the same mistake made by Arrhenius over and over again. He ignored the cooling. He did not know about it. Hence, the reason why his formula did not work (at all).
If you have experimental results I would love to hear about it. But I know what you will find. It is all just based on correlations, mathematical calculations and computer models, all based on the pre-assumption that the increase in CO2 caused (most of) modern warming…..
What I need to see is experimental measurements showing the cooling and warming in W/m2 per 0.01% CO2 per M3 dry air per time unit and the same for water vapor of course, as well as the measurements of the interaction of water vapor and CO2 on heat retention (when you mix the two)
Again I want to say that we need a complete re-think and re-measurement of everything that we thought was ‘the law”. I am more and more convinced earth needs more carbon dioxide, not less, if we want to go greener. But we need to change people’s minds. Big time.
#We can only do that if we present real experimental evidence.