Hansen would rather have us ruled by China

James Hansen

Dr. James Hansen in his famous 1998 speech before congress. Image via Wikipedia

Patrick J. MICHAELS: China-style dictatorship of climatologists

NASA’s Hansen prefers rule by decree to fight ‘global warming’

Excerpts: From the Washington Times Monday, January 17, 2011

November’s election made it quite clear that the people of the United States do not want to radically change our society in the name of global warming. Pretty much every close House race went to the Republicans, while the Democrats won all the Senate squeakers. The difference? The House on June 26, 2009, passed a bill limiting carbon-dioxide emissions and getting into just about every aspect of our lives. The Senate did nothing of the sort.

The nation’s most prominent publicly funded climatologist is officially angry about this, blaming democracy and citing the Chinese government as the “best hope” to save the world from global warming. He also wants an economic boycott of the U.S. sufficient to bend us to China’s will.

According to Mr. Hansen, compared to China, we are “the barbarians” with a “fossil-money- ‘democracy’ that now rules the roost,” making it impossible to legislate effectively on climate change. Unlike us, the Chinese are enlightened, unfettered by pesky elections. Here’s what he blogged on Nov. 24:

“I have the impression that Chinese leadership takes a long view, perhaps because of the long history of their culture, in contrast to the West with its short election cycles. At the same time, China has the capacity to implement policy decisions rapidly. The leaders seem to seek the best technical information and do not brand as a hoax that which is inconvenient.”

Read the whole story at the Washington Times

h/t to Leif Svalgaard

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229 thoughts on “Hansen would rather have us ruled by China

  1. Apparently Mr. Hansen didn’t read up on China’s CO2 stance: i.e. that China is not willing to stunt its own growth in order to limit purported damage due to the US and Europe’s past pollution.

    That’s the real long view.

    But of course we all know Hansen is just a nut job who somehow retains his post as head of a fairly important scientific organization.

    It is this juxtaposition of Hansen’s appointed position and Hansen’s gigantic mouth which makes me wonder just what is going on the US federal government.

  2. Well, of course. Why do you think Maurice Strong moved his base of environmental operations to China years ago? Reminds me of the J. Ventura special investigation series.

  3. Yes make no mistake about it every warmist is a marxist at heart.
    I guess he would not be in favour of suspending democracy until we have thrown these
    warmists out.

  4. Hansen needs to take off those rose red tinted glasses.

    If China has got it so right why doesn’t he go and live there!

  5. At the Kingsnorth Trial Dr Hansen spoke as an Expert Witness. His testimony was a disgrace in that he asserted global warming is so severe a problem that actions intended to damage the power station (or any other coal-fired power station) are justified because the benefit of the electricity the power station provided was outweighed by the great harm being done by its CO2 emissions.

    The terrorists (who had attacked the power station, caused its temporary stoppage, and caused costly damage) were acquited.

    Dr Hansen is employed by an agency of the US government (i.e. NASA) and the value of his expert opinion is provided by that employment.

    Sending an agent of the US government to assist terrorists acting in the UK could be considered to be an act of war. It is certainly not a friendly act by a country that is an ally of the UK.

    Richard

  6. If your opponent is willing to hobble himself by eschewing the use of cheap energy you would be a total idiot not to use cheap energy to beat him.

    Unlike the ever “guilty” west China sees absolutely nothing wrong with striving for global economic ( followed by political ) domination. Hansen is correct , but not in the way he thinks he is.

  7. I heard somewhere that on average the Chinese open a new coal-fired power plant every week. If that’s true perhaps Jimmy Hansen should take one of his rent-a-crowds over there and protest outside one of them and see where that gets him. I’m sure they’ll be very understanding and bring out some milk & cookies for you Jim.

  8. He’s long past retirement age. Surely some suitably qualified person could look at his ramblings and make judgements about his state of senility/paranoia/Alzheimers?

  9. If James Hansen were a calamatologist in China he would never have given his 1988 speech to the Chinese parliament. He would never have been allowed to scaremonger. IF over the years AGW is shown to be increasingly false (which is what I see right now) then will he issue an apology to the people of America and the rest of the world? He is a public employee in a democracy and should not be attacking his employers and get away with it. In years to come the US government will learn from this episode and strictly enforce it’s own rules regarding employee conduct. Unbelievable!

    Correction?
    I think Mr. Hansen gave his speech on June 23 1988.

  10. Hansen looked a miserable git in 1998. Now he’s just a miserable evil old git.

    Well, that sets a nice tone doesn’t it…

    Anyway, where does Dr Hansen say what is claimed he did? The fact is he didn’t say that he would ‘rather have us ruled by China’ or anything like that. The whole premise of the piece is utterly bogus.

  11. China is clever. They speak to the popular views while their actions are opposite. They have tremendous pollution problems, but that gets little attention when they talk about their commitment to reduce CO2 emissions.

    They clearly understand how to work the backroom deals with politicians. Their long term view is something to worry about. They keep putting engineers in charge while we keep putting lawyers in charge. That is something to worry about.

    John Kehr

  12. Me thinks the good doctor may have finally gone too far. The republicans are looking for ways to cut the budget and up pops this plumb… a civil servant advocating a political position contrary to our culture and way of life. Time to go out to pasture Jimbo. Oh yeah, take your friends with you.

  13. I suggest Mr Hansen heads for the Far East, calling for civil disobedience in China as a means of protesting against the construction of one of the many coal fired stations they are building. Indeed he should head this protest himself, then with any luck the saviours of the world will lock him up. Of course we know he will not try it on, people like him only carry on like this in countries where they know they will be treated with kid gloves. Still there is always hope, perhaps attitudes here will change.

  14. Well as far as I’m concerned, until Hansen speaks in scientific terms, armed with evidence and observations proving his claims of Catastrophic effects from Anthropogenic CO2 on Global temperatures…… I’ll treat his statements like I treat Prince Charles’s…. As the ramblings of a eccentric fruit loop.

    Both of them live off the public purse and are afforded more respect than they deserve, which is rather galling also.

  15. Fossil fuels have been used for thousands of years by the Chinese and other Asian builders of civilisations. White guilters have a stupid way of not seeing that.

  16. What miserable drones and traitors have I nourished and brought up in my household, who let their lord be treated with such shameful contempt by a low-born cleric? Henry II on Thomas Becket. More usually written as Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?

    Is James “China’s useful idiot” Hansen aware that China now burns 45% of all the coal in the world and is the largest emitter of GHCs by far – even more so when you count all the methane from paddy fields. This on a day of a difficult Chinese state visit. This guy should be sacked now. Foreign policy is NOT his department.

  17. Since he’s in the “climate biz,” I’m sure he’s well aware of China’s attitudes and actions. Talk about your cognitive dissonance, this is it!

  18. So is he arguing for a Chinese style nuclear development and fuel recycling program?

    I would go for that.

  19. To stop Hansen’s agenda one needs to demolish his belief that the Venusian temperature is due to a runaway greenhouse gas effect. Until that happens, it’s all hot air being contributed by both sides.

  20. At the same time, China has the capacity to implement policy decisions rapidly. The leaders seem to seek the best technical information and do not brand as a hoax that which is inconvenient.”
    They branded inconvenient freedom a hoax and backed it up with tanks and gunfire on unarmed civilians. Hansen probably also doesn’t realize that China has one of the slowest and most ponderous political-economic systems, namely crony capitalism ruled by local thugs. They have a giant economic bubble and overcapacity since every local communist party boss wants his factory. And thanks to mostly no private ownership, they squander resources and destroy the environment.

  21. I am content to rest with a paragraph from the Washington Times as linked above:

    Has this guy ever heard of the Gang of Four? Or the Cultural Revolution, which killed those who were inconvenient? Or the Great Leap Forward, which used the best technical information to determine that a steel mill in every backyard was a good idea?

  22. On second thought, I’m with Hansen on this. Why can’t we be more like China and build a power plant a week?

  23. If James Hansen were a calamatologist in China he would never have given his 1988 speech to the Chinese parliament.

    He isn’t even a climatologist in the US. He is an astrophysicist.

  24. Chaveratti says:
    January 18, 2011 at 1:41 am

    If China has got it so right why doesn’t he go and live there!
    _____________________________________________

    Uhmmmmm……censorship. I meeeeeeean, can you imagine this man under tight control? He’d be in such a low, there would be a typhoon called Mann.

  25. It would be easy to spend a day finding fault with the US and other western democracies. The time needed to consider the faults of China would be at least one year.

    It is not only toys which are cheap in China, live is also cheap, unless of course you are a member of the party.

    Hansen’s encouragement of terrorism is disgusting. Imagine if it was Al Quaeda who were attacking our power stations, would they have got off scot free?

    Hansen is wrong about the science and also politics. Is there anything else he wishes to advise us on using his great lack of wisdom?

  26. @ Sleeptown

    “He’s long past retirement age. Surely some suitably qualified person could look at his ramblings and make judgements about his state of senility/paranoia/Alzheimers?”

    None of those just plain stupidity?

  27. Steeptown said on January 18, 2011 at 1:56 am:

    He’s long past retirement age. Surely some suitably qualified person could look at his ramblings and make judgements about his state of senility/paranoia/Alzheimers?

    Senile dementia took my father.

    So it should mean something when I say: I don’t find your remark offensive.

    I will note though that Hansen may just be exhibiting what happens to a lot of older people. They lose their “internal filter,” no longer “give a damn” about anything resembling any kind of “correctness” (political, social, or otherwise), and just say what’s really on their mind.

    It’s not like what he’s saying is all that new and different from what he’s said before. We’re probably just seeing the raw unvarnished version of what he’s believed all along.

    PS: A fair amount of our regular WUWT expert commenters are “long past retirement age.” I ain’t speaking for them. They will have their own opinions about the implied “long past retirement age” -> “senility/paranoia/Alzheimers” link.

  28. I hardly think China is an example for anyone to follow. However Hansen is right in one respect, democracy is somewhat limited when it comes to dealing with AGW.

    Incidentally, it is often said that we just can’t afford to deal with AGW. Its just too expensive. Funny thing though, it seems to me that much of our money is spent on frivolous things like clothes, flash cars, and houses which are much bigger than we need them to be. We buy these things as “rewards” or “status symbols”. Girls dress better to attract a mate. Its a competitive activity. They buy expensive handbags for status. The same is true of big houses and flash cars – they are functional, but essentially they say, “I’m better than you”. Of course at this stage, the “we can’t afford it” crowd point out that this is not true of the poor. Its the only time they show concern for the poor.

  29. Peter H — nice legalese try. Yes literally he did not, but Chinese being enlightened? HMMM. Other than disliking Jews and various other groups, Hilter was just an enlightened nationalist.

  30. The Left is in love with China. There are plenty more, look at Van Jones, Anita Dunn, and Robert Reich. China is an ecological basket case yet the Left keeps calling them green. It seems they like China because it is there that govt can get things done. But this cuts two ways.

    Such talk is dangerous. These people are termites, eating away at our Nation’s foundation.

  31. There seems to have been a glut of these global warming “scientists” making a fool of themselves just recently?

    Can it be that the global warming tide has turned and now those fish which raced in at the front of the tide are suddenly finding themselves flipping and flopping on the sand?

  32. Among the many thoughts I have when I contemplate the various Climategate official inquiries are “who do they (UEA) think these ‘vindications’ will persuade?”

    As someone with enough time around China to be able to see some things from the Chinese perspective, I would only imagine that they would think that the inquiries were an insult to their intelligence. I can’t see China being willing to slow its growth even a fraction, when the AGW proponents are so eager to cite a series of whitewashes in their support.

  33. OK…Hansen has never made ayn sense to me…but this is the straw…this is just plain ludicrous.

    1) China is now a greater source of fossil fuel spending and pollution than we are…and unlike us, they’re drilling off the Florida coast for more oil.

    2) China’s “long view” includes…um…the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent female children? How is that good for China in the long run?

    3) The romanticism some “enlgihtened” far-leftists attach to China’s “rich heritage” often borders on complete ignorance. China seeks the best technical advice? Was that true when they totally fracked up their own largest rivers with ill-conceived dams that screwed up whole ecosystems? Or when they invested millions of man hours (and thousands of lives) building a series of completely ineffective great walls? Or when they bound the feet of millions of women (and still do, guys!) for no reason other than that some tyrant in the dark ages thought tiny feet were hot? I could of course go on. China is not some romantic ideal utopia…millions of people starve in China, they police the internet, trying to keep freedom from the hearts and minds of their people, and their brilliant scientific policy apparently includes using as much fossil fuel energy as they want with no regard for anyone else if it serves their unbalanced economy…not that I blame them on that front, but HANSEN SHOULD.

    I mean REALLY, Hansen? You complete and utter ignoramous…UGH

  34. @John Brookes: January 18, 2011 at 3:17 am

    You say: ‘I hardly think China is an example for anyone to follow. However Hansen is right in one respect, democracy is somewhat limited when it comes to dealing with AGW.’

    Is this another snippet of ‘knowledge’ you got from reading Al Gore’s book?

    You’re OK with a little bit of tyranny then? (which is rather like being a little bit pregnant). You think that if you can’t get your (poorly informed) way with democracy, that you should go for a bit of dictatorship?

    John, you seem to have a closed mind, even though you elected to take the trouble to read Gore. But you should not have stopped there. As I said in a comment in another WUWT post, go and look up Eschenbach, Carter, and Monckton. They would take Gore for breakfast, but he’s too scared to debate them. Then again, Gore is very much the tyrant, inasmuch as ‘do as I say, not as I do’.

  35. Here’s China’s commitment to climate change.

    China to buy $A70b of Australian coal

    February 6, 2010

    Mining magnate Clive Palmer says his company has secured Australia’s biggest export deal with a $US60 billion ($A69.39 billion) agreement to sell coal to China.

    The Resourcehouse chairman on Saturday said the company’s proposed China First coal mine and infrastructure project in central Queensland had reached a 20-year agreement with one of China’s largest power companies, China Power International Development, the flagship company of China Power Investment Corporation (CPI).

    “This deal with CPI is Australia’s biggest ever export contract,” Mr Palmer said in a statement.

    Mr Palmer also said he had awarded Queensland’s largest engineering, procurement and construction management contract (EPCM) for $US8.013 billion ($A9.27 billion) to Metallurgical Corporation of China Ltd (MCC).

    “MCC will manage a syndicated group consisting of Sino Coal International Engineering Group, China Communications Construction Company (First Harbour) and China Railway Group Limited (CREC) to build Australia’s largest coal mine along with the required export infrastructure,” he said.

    “The $US8.0 billion ($A9.25 billion) China First Project has been developed by China First Pty Ltd, which is a fully-owned subsidiary of Resourcehouse.”

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/china-to-buy-a70b-of-australian-coal-20100206-njko.html

  36. China has over 23.000 coal power plants and accounts for roughly half of the worlds yearly consumption. About 4/5 of their energy is from coal. Nice choice of champion, Jim.

    They have a very easy task of making “radical” cuts in coal usage and by doing so, will sucker the EU and US to follow and commit financial suicide – and then China will bail us out and – own us. Currently China is playing it’s cards right and since there is so much invested political capital in climate issues by the western governments, we will end up losing BIG.

  37. I don’t think it’s senility, because there are plenty of other “philosopher Kings” out there willing to throw away liberal democracy and replace it with totalitarianism in order to implement their proposed solution to the climate crisis. It would be an interesting psychology study, if nothing else.

  38. Snotrocket,

    Liberals have always been closet tyrants, though I hope that the John Brookes of this world don’t descend into the Pre-Columbian practice of human sacrifice to placate their deities. If they do then the likes you and I are in deep poo-doo.

  39. Steeptown says:
    January 18, 2011 at 1:56 am
    “He’s long past retirement age. Surely some suitably qualified person could look at his ramblings and make judgements about his state of senility/paranoia/Alzheimers?”

    “Retirement Age” is a concept that sometimes enables us to rid ourselves of one who has been cluttering up the environment since senility set in on leaving high school. There are many of us old bozos around (old enough to regard someone of Hansen’s age as little more than a lad) that have every hope of remaining compos mentis for another decade or two.

  40. Dr. Hansen lets the cat out of the bag. His comments illustrate what many of us have known for a few decades. The debate has nothing to do with Climate, and everything to do with the Will to Power.

  41. I think the term used to be “useful fool”.

    Isn’t China building large numbers of coal fired power stations?

  42. Red China is rapidly cornering the solar photovoltaic panel market… But they are installing very little solar generating capacity in their own country.

    Why? Solar costs 5 to 10 times as much per MW installed capacity as coal and gas plants do. Red China isn’t dumb enough to pay more for energy than they have to; but they can build solar panels cheaper than anyone else and they have a huge market of gullible customers in the West.

  43. H.R. says:
    January 18, 2011 at 2:53 am

    On second thought, I’m with Hansen on this. Why can’t we be more like China and build a power plant a week?

    Bingo! And I’d prefer at least half of them were nuclear.

  44. Don’t you wish that is just all too much for him and Jones et al and that they couldn’t bear the strain any longer and paid the ultimate sacrifice?

  45. James Hansen appears to becoming more and more of a fanatic like other dictatorial fanatics we recall in recent history. With his eagerness to break with democracy and support anti-democratic actions such as activley trying to close down power stations in both America and the U.K., I do hope the British government will refuse any further attempts by him to come to the U.K for illegal and un-democratic purposes, and treat him as an undesirable alien.

  46. Mike Haseler :3.26am

    Very perceptive comment. It does seem as if they have gone over the edge.

    I visit a number of sites most days, (WUWT first!), including AGWERs, and it would appear they are getting more and more desperate.

    I do hope they will reach some sort of crescendo and just implode (metaphorically, of course). It’s just a question of when, really, but from mid 2007, when the first cracks appeared, it’s taking a long, long time.

    At least this time he didn’t mention ‘the chilldruuuun’!

  47. Louis Hissink says:
    January 18, 2011 at 4:00 am

    Snotrocket,

    Liberals have always been closet tyrants, though I hope that the John Brookes of this world don’t descend into the Pre-Columbian practice of human sacrifice to placate their deities. If they do then the likes you and I are in deep poo-doo.

    _________________________________________________________

    Anytime they show up here, it is they that would be sacrificed.

  48. The Chinese government has killed more people on this planet than any other.
    Supporting China is pure evil.

  49. The 50-70 million dead Chinese, killed under Mao, nicely falsify the Hansen theory don’t they.

    Probably pointless to show all the the horror of Chinese life under tyranny. Why do liberals boot lick their brethren commies? It’s one of the mysteries of life.

    And here I thought it was truth seeking science we were after … but when the truth goes bad ….

  50. Elite Intellectual Scientists willing to buddy up with the Communists to save the world from Certain Global Destruction.

    I’ve seen old science fiction movies featuring that, crappy B-grade ones like late night locally-produced shows and MST3K would feature. Heck, I may have seen some recycled newsreel footage of it, featuring the House Un-American Activities Committee.

    They never ended well. Have we learned nothing from history?

  51. In this era of impending dramatic budget cuts, I would like to thank Dr. Hansen for self nominating himself and his organization for the axe. Although his approach is somewhat unorthodox, calling attention to it as an organization that needs to be killed is appreciated.

    (I denounce myself for eliminationist language.)

  52. Louis Hissink says:
    January 18, 2011 at 2:46 am

    To stop Hansen’s agenda one needs to demolish his belief that the Venusian temperature is due to a runaway greenhouse gas effect. Until that happens, it’s all hot air being contributed by both sides.
    ==========
    funny that he left cos that program was canned,
    later someone else oversaw the Venus probe I thought?
    so
    who? and what? was the results..
    funny no one ever mentions it, and yet Hansens wikibio states he USES that THEORY…as his basis for saying co2 dun it…

  53. Interesting piece, this! Mr. Michaels brings this to our attention on Benjamin Franklin’s birthday in 1706. Mr. Franklin famously compared Monarchy, the totalitarian governmental form of his time, with the democratic republic form he helped to establish. The Monarchy can be represented as a full-rigged Man-O’-War with the captain on the quarterdeck, each crewman at his station and the flags and pennants flying in a beautiful display. Democracy is like a cargo raft – ugly and almost unmaneuverable. When they strike an uncharted reef, howevr, H.M. Ship of the Line sinks, whereas the raft bumps on around it.
    Mr. Hansen, a smart fellow no doubt, likes to think that because he thinks that he’s thought this AGW thing through it must be right, and the Luddites that oppose his agenda are simplletons in need of stern guidance. It’s so much more efficient that way. Absence of the tropical tropopause ‘hot spot’, possibly declining sea level for 2010, ‘forcing factors’ values pulled out of thin air, effects of non-terrestrial factors on cloud cover, a new coal-fired plant per week in China – these are to him mere disputes about the value of the n-th significant digit.
    The raft we ride and try to guide will follow the river, whether we want it to or no. The raft of science – of shared human knowledge – will float on without him and the other successors to Trofim Lysenko. Have faith, and go where the data take you.

    Tom, MD, PhD

  54. evergreen? a usa maker of solar cells took 45 MIL in handouts from the usa govt and now?
    is offshoring to china…

    and the astute commenter above..who reminds us M Strong is in china, yes and still meddling everywhere else.

  55. Aw, Jim is just being a sore loser. He had visions of saving the planet, which, by the way, didn’t pan out.
    He has something to be thankful for, however, as China would not tolerate him going on the way he does.

  56. What utter nonsense! I bet that there is a Hanson quotation from the late Seventies to early Eighties which explains that the Japanese government is wiser and in all ways superior to the American government as evidenced in the success of Toyota, etc. The man simply does not have the good judgement that is required of an administrator in his position.

  57. Perhaps Jimmy should take a tour of Arlington National Cemetery, preferably in the presence of relatives of those who are buried there.

  58. David Middleton says:
    January 18, 2011 at 4:27 am
    “Red China is rapidly cornering the solar photovoltaic panel market… But they are installing very little solar generating capacity in their own country.

    ……………………………. but they can build solar panels cheaper than anyone else and they have a huge market of gullible customers in the West.”

    Well said David
    Our own dear addled Energy Secretary (UK), is running a scheme which allows the well healed to invest approx 18000 GBP in photovoltaics, with a guaranteed 8% return on capital. This is funded by increased prices paid by the less well off consumer who can’t afford that sort of outlay. Progressive or what?

  59. Richard S Courtney says:
    January 18, 2011 at 1:50 am

    Why was Hansen not fired? Can someone explain?

  60. Shevva says:
    January 18, 2011 at 2:47 am
    “He really is going down in history as the Dr.Evil character, does that make old Phil Jones mini-me?”

    This has become a recurring image. The entire Environmental Left seems hellbent on painting themselves as Dr. Evil or minion.

  61. I do not understand the government of the USA’s collective reasoning in allowing this egregious alarmist to make such blatantly dishonest and ant-democratic public pronouncements. Ranting against the very foundations of his own country seems treasonous at best to me. Or have I missed something?

    • I totally agree with you . .

      This is getting a bit scary now chaps. You Americans need to get back on track because a lot of us out here in Not America have first hand experience of what the Chinese “model” is like and we really don’t like it at all.

      America and the American way are the clear hope for Earth and these types who like anything that is not America are going to do a lot of damage. This effete attitude of dissing the USA while enjoying all of the benefits of living there is disgraceful.

      Get a grip.

  62. The Chinese government has killed more people on this planet than any other.
    Supporting China is pure evil.

    It would be a near impossibility that you don’t have, in your possession, something made in China. You are, unless that is not the case, supporting China, and as such would be, by your own definition, pure evil. The same, undoubtedly, applies to every else here.

  63. Unfortunately, Dr. Hansen is not a scientist anymore. He seems to be an influential political activist with extremely dangerous ideas (just look at the history of any country in the Old World in order to see what happens if ‘finis sanctificat media’). Now he even thinks about his totally unproven CAGW theory as an excuse for authoritarianism.

    Most of the people in Hungary used to view the U.S. as a symbol of civil and economic freedoms, don’t let it change in the future.

  64. One can only wonder about the mental state of Dr James Hansen! His concerns about catastrophic man-made global warming, and his obsession with rising CO2 emissions being disastrous for the world as we know it, border on abnormal paranoia.

  65. Every time I try to read something James Hansens has said or written I just get “Mmm Bop” playing in my head. It’s some form of defense mechanism, I’m sure.

  66. “At the same time, China has the capacity to implement policy decisions rapidly.”

    There is the dream of Hansen et al. America, you have been warned.

  67. My suggestion is that we locate some village in China who is missing their idiot and book a flight there. Hell, I’ll even kick in for his first class ticket.

  68. I’ve just read Hansen’s full article, ‘The Price of Change’ (written as a private citizen, no less).

    He does mention ‘the children’, but only once………………….. :)

  69. The Kingsnorth protesters were acquitted following Hansen’s testimony. The Chinese, who Hansen admires so much, are opening a new power-station the size of Kingsnorth or larger every four days. Strangely, Hansen failed to mention this in his piece.

  70. The author of the Times article clearly doesn’t like Hansen. But, Cancun indicated that the US, Japan, China and several other countries aren’t willing to support Kyoto. I’m not sure where the author got the idea that China is a big fan of the CAGW meme.

    His [Hansen’s] forecasts of climatic change for nearly the last quarter-century are fantasy, as is his notion that dictators are better than democracy and that our country should be bullied into submission.

  71. For those of you who haven’t seen the following related article by Jim Hansen, please read it:

    “The Price of Change” by Jim Hansen

    In this article (intended for a Chinese audience in a Chinese newspaper) makes the following predictions:

    * Sea levels will eventually rise 25 meters above today’s levels when CO2 level reach 400 ppm in 2016.
    * Sea levels will further rise to 75 meters when we reach 550 ppm.
    * Climate zones are shifting 50-60 km per decade, which will eventually lead to mass extinctions of animals and plants.
    * Increasing CO2 to 550 ppm by burning fossil fuels will lead to a “desolate, ice-free planet…”
    * “Transition to the ice-free state will be chaotic and out of humanity’s control…”

    I’ll leave it to others to comment of the likelihood of these claims…

  72. Right from the start Hansen was wrong.

    He came in from the cold of astrophysics where he had imagined that Venus has a runaway global warming problem that results from its CO2 atmosphere. However a tiny piece of information makes nonsense of that:

    Probes measuring the energy output from Venus (I’m searching for the source data, either NASA Pioneers or Russia Venera) found that Venus is emitting more energy than reaches it from the Sun.

    Therefore it has a significant internal heat source. Therefore, of course it’s hot. No GHG effect can cause emitted energy to exceed incoming energy. No GHG effect is needed to explain the heat – even if it is a contributory factor.

    Why no word from Hansen on this? Cynically, do higher powers want this cannon to stay loose? Hi boss Theon disowned him – but had no power apparently to get him sacked.

  73. Hansen is following in a long line of left wing fellow travellers. Similar people denied that Stalin was slaughtering millions. They deny that China has one of the worst human rights records on record or that after Tianemen Square dozens of activists have simply disappeared. The list is endless.

    Just to emphasise earlier comments. China is currently responsible for nearly 50% of global CO2 emissions from burning coal. A further 400GW of coal fired power stations are planned by 2020 – that is 60 times the total UK generating capacity from all sources. How long will this federal funded fanatic be allowed to stay on the payroll. He is being paid as a scientist not a political lobbyist.

  74. If he had sunglasses he would look like Agent Smith from the Matrix. He must be his real world megalomaniac brother.

  75. TomMikePat says: “Interesting piece, this! Mr. Michaels brings this to our attention on Benjamin Franklin’s birthday in 1706. Mr. Franklin famously compared Monarchy, the totalitarian governmental form of his time, with the democratic republic form he helped to establish.

    Technically, using “monarchy” in its correct sense, the US has a monarch albeit elected. (Which is in fact the same of the UK – because we also have an elected monarch but most people don’t vote as no one has told them they can!)

    But seriously, the constitution of the US was based on the Roman Republic and not the greek Demokratia, and it’s only an absurd twist of fate that you now call yourself “democratic” when originally “democrat” (in greece) was coined to refer to left-wing yokel farmers who had taken over government in a left-wing coop and ousted the ruling right-wing political elite. The equivalent today would be factory workers ousting the fat-cat politicians from congress out of office!

    Anyway, back to the US, the constitutional founders intended to model their constitution on the original Roman republic (and UK) combining the three elements:

    Monarchy:- president
    Oligarchy: senate
    democracy: House

    It’s only a quirk of fate that you call yourself a democracy (which you are not) … in short, “democracy” meant “giving ordinary people political rights” (i.e. the demos), the democratic movement became a movement for ordinary people to have a say in government (hence the communists call themselves democrats – and the left in the US call themselves democrat), this then became a movement to give ordinary people the vote, and then “democratic” became synonomous, not with a government by ordinary people as in the original sense … but government by one or other political elite following a vote of the “demos” … democratic meant “democratically elected oligarchy”.

    It was only at the time of Ronald Reagen/Thatcher that the term “democracy” was embraced by the right taking this ultra-left term and making a right-wing term meaning: “an electoral system whereby arabs with oil can be bought by US oil corps”

    And if you want to know the truth, the greeks thought elections were undemocratic because they were just bought by the rich and powerful, so they preferred jury selection to the panels that ran the governent (except the army and waterworks).

    So, nothing much has changed, elections in the US are still undemocratic!

    … the correct term for what Hansen espouses is tyranny!

  76. Anthony, I send deep appreciation for your indefatigable pursuit of truth in blog journalism, about the only investigative journalism that we have in the U.S. I have sent my quarterly subscription (“donation”, but I consider it more than that). Hope many others do the same. Many more years of success to you!

    Re: American investigative journalism. Does anyone know the numbers, e.g., the (declining, I think) readership of mainstream print newspapers and magazines? Anthony’s attractive, informative, and hard-hitting style offers one of the best possibilities for re-engaging and re-educating a large public, and not only an American one.

  77. I agree with Richard S. Courtney. It is surely only a matter of time before we in the UK sink into the abyss, & somebody actually gets killed in one of these mindless protests!

    James Hansen has well & truly nailed his “colour” to the mast. James Lovelock ditto. & others too. When one says one has to “suspend” democracy to fight cilmate change, who does the suspending & for how long is it to be suspended? 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, for ever? BTW, energy costs soaring in the UK, Unions getting restless, inflation on the up, retail prices rising. Looking all set for a Winter of Discontent by the Autumn. AND the PDREU/UESR want us to bail out the Euro with money we don’t have. Marvellous, just marvellous!

  78. Let’s just rip up Hansen’s passport and deport him to China for unAmerican activities. The only problem might be that they might not want him either. Why not let him chose the island of his choice and assign him to watching for sea level rise? Give him a whistle he can blow when he sees some. We will, thus, never hear from him again.

  79. Mike Haseler says:
    January 18, 2011 at 3:26 am

    There seems to have been a glut of these global warming “scientists” making a fool of themselves just recently?

    Can it be that the global warming tide has turned and now those fish which raced in at the front of the tide are suddenly finding themselves flipping and flopping on the sand?

    My choice for quote of the week.

  80. Hansen is of course correct that democracies have a problem making short term sacrifices to deal with long-term problems. The deficit, anyone?

    He fails, tho, in thinking that benevolent dictatorship is the answer –there you merely exchange a short-term solution for an even greater long-term problem. And of course fails again in holding up China as the beau ideal of a benevolent dictatorship.

  81. Well, Hansen’s big fan, Obama, is busy bowing down to China, so I guess our president agrees with Hansen on politics as well as climate alarmism.

  82. How and Why is Mr. Hansen still in his current job………..and why are WE still paying him ??????????

  83. It seems that he really believes in Global Warming!….

    There seems to be some kind of God Complex running through Climate Science at the moment. Even on Judith Curry’s website, you get threads posted about what climate scientists can do to solve problem X, including geo-political, globalisation related issues that are generally [snip] all to do with climate! Actually, it’s starting to get very annoying….

  84. A few months ago, there was a significant bloom of SO2 over china. For all the world, a few volcano aficionados were convinced that a volcano had just gone pop. We scoured the records looking for likely suspects but the closest thing we could come up with was a meager formation off to the North West. The problem was that the prevailing winds didn’t match up.

    After a while we figured it out. Beijing. Man made. Large and sudden enough to look like a volcano.

    And not one bit of news to hint at what it was.

    Yeah, china is a good example… not.

    (Note, I spell china with a lower case c out of disrespect)

  85. Hansen wishes to be ruled by China. But maybe in China he would not have a good life on the expenses of others. Maybe he would be in a labour camp and grind rocks.

  86. Is there anyone left that doesn’t understand what we’re up against?

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/health/Climate+change+deniers+skilfully+fuel+doubt/4114099/story.html

    “….libertarians in the U.S. who have led a decades-long ideological fight, first against the communists and then the health community and now environmentalism.”

    They are all one and the same. Our fathers were right. McCarthy was right. Khrushchev is dangerously close to having been correct.

  87. What a despicable men he is, not content to have a job where he is expected to promote a fraud but to actually want Americans to be subjugated to the brutal rule of communists. Why, so he would have no opposition and not have to prove his claim. And it can be assumed he would want China to rule all of Western civilization. He indeed must consider himself priceless.

  88. When in China speaking, does he get someone to crank up the heat in the room there, too? Parlor tricks and charlatanism. I am certain most Chinese would not have sources of information to counter Hansen’s talking points. WUWT? is blocked in China.

  89. “It’s only a quirk of fate that you call yourself a democracy (which you are not)”

    Democracy for short, Constitutional Republic to be precise.

  90. Peter H says:
    January 18, 2011 at 5:27 am

    “The Chinese government has killed more people on this planet than any other.
    Supporting China is pure evil.”

    It would be a near impossibility that you don’t have, in your possession, something made in China. You are, unless that is not the case, supporting China, and as such would be, by your own definition, pure evil. The same, undoubtedly, applies to every else here.

    Pardon me, but I reject your “logic”!

    I actually steer clear of as many “Made in China” items as possible (I don’t shop at Walmart much). Sure, I probably have a few things, but typically there isn’t a replacement item made in the US. The mere fact that I purchase something from them does NOT mean I “support” them and their evil, totalitarian regime. But you bring up a good collateral point–buying from them does not improve the US’s industrial capacity and standing among world competitors and only helps the Chinese. I suggest we all purchase items “Made in the US” and keep our dollars home where they will more likely be used to hire someone local/regional. It is a sad fact that since 2001, about 42,000 factories have closed in the US with an average of 500 employees per factory. No wonder the US is no longer a productive industrial nation deeply in debt to China–a country who has embraced a vision that combines energy + hard work + entrepreneurial spirit–exactly what the US once had in abundance.

    We’ve PC’d ourselves into secondary status and illogical people like Hansen have led the way. Hansen is so completely wrong about China I wonder what planet he’s on (I lived in China for 2 years and it was an eye-opener).

  91. Hansen has gone into intellectual and moral meltdown. Does this mean he’s suffering from China Syndrome?

  92. Hansen doesn’t understand the laws of economics.

    Steam coal costs $120/tonne in China and $15/tonne in Wyoming.

    Nuclear,hydro, and wind coupled with hydro are all cheaper energy options then burning coal in China or the entire rest of Asia for that matter.

    Having said that the Chinese generating capacity mix in 2020 will most likely be
    Coal – 900GW – up from 680 now
    Hydro – 400GW – up from 200 now
    Wind – 200GW – up from 70 now
    Nuclear – 100GW – up from 10 now.

    Post 2020 nuclear generating capacity is the likely source of future energy growth as Hydro will be maxed out.

    US Coal,Nuclear and Hydro generating capacity have been flat since 1990.

    US Greenies that want to talk about windmills need to get over their aversion to hydro.

  93. China had to shut down factories for three months prior to the olympics to improve air quality. Yep, I think I want to follow their lead when it comes to the environment.

  94. 75% of the people in China and India cook and heat with charcoal, coal, wood, trash and any combustible.

    China has no real labor unions. Cheap labor.

    They have 49 million in prison; free labor. If you complain about worker safety in a coal mine, 10 years in jail and work for free.

    Joe Romm lauds praises daily to commie China.

  95. @Mike Haseler:

    King for a Kingdom.
    Emperor for an Empire.
    Hansen for a Country.

    Apologies Anthony….couldn’t resist. :)

  96. Peter H says: January 18, 2011 at 2:01 am

    Anyway, where does Dr Hansen say what is claimed he did? The fact is he didn’t say that he would ‘rather have us ruled by China’ or anything like that. The whole premise of the piece is utterly bogus.

    Come on, at least try to keep up
    Try “China and the Barbarians: Part 1.” (currently three titles down)

  97. Paul Krugman is rather fond of China’s authoritarianism as well. It’s really hard to know everything and not have everyone do what you say.

  98. Oh come on.

    The headline is way inappropriate given Hansen’s quote, which is basically correct in observing that China takes a longer view than US and can make decisions & execute policy more nimbly.

    The points about china’s talk vs behavior are true, but the headline and name calling (‘git’) based in physical appearance are WAY beneath what I have come to expect from this site.

    There are so many valid criticisms and observations out there with regard to climate alarmism I cannot see why WUWT would stoop so low, especially on the heels of willis’ excellent work.

    You are better than this. Come on.

  99. For the first time ever, I voted straight Republican. I see the CAGW monstrosity as a war on truth, on freedom, and on Democracy itself. It is indeed instructive that Jimmy “trains of death” Hansen views China and its still-Communistic, authoritarian style of government as the “best hope” of the world, and that we Americans are “barbarians”. I am sure many, if not most of his eco-loony cohorts feel the same way. One wonders what China’s jailed 2010 Nobel Peace Prize winner, Liu Xiaobo would say to them.
    Hansen’s anger about the recent elections and his loony, near-treasonous rant fill me with satisfaction and hope. We must be doing something right.

  100. @John Brooks, here and on other threads:

    You said that you took your position of (pro) AGW after reading Gore’s Inconvenient Truth.

    Perhaps you should read Gore’s soul-mate, Hansen in this comment and let us know where you stand as a result.

    Frank K. says:
    January 18, 2011 at 5:56 am
    ……
    * Sea levels will eventually rise 25 meters above today’s levels when CO2 level reach 400 ppm in 2016.
    * Sea levels will further rise to 75 meters when we reach 550 ppm.
    * Climate zones are shifting 50-60 km per decade, which will eventually lead to mass extinctions of animals and plants.
    * Increasing CO2 to 550 ppm by burning fossil fuels will lead to a “desolate, ice-free planet…”
    * “Transition to the ice-free state will be chaotic and out of humanity’s control…”

  101. John Brookes says:
    January 18, 2011 at 3:17 am
    …” Funny thing though, it seems to me that much of our money is spent on frivolous things like clothes, flash cars, and houses which are much bigger than we need them to be.”

    Ya, clothes there is something “frivolous”.

    As I and others have said before the CO2 agenda has been about freedom not warming. He who controls the price and amount of energy people are allowed to use, control the people.

    Drill baby Drill.

  102. I would think the Chinese more than anyone would like to see Hansen shut the hell up. He’s not only an embarrassment to himself, the US, science in general, he’s now propping up one of the few regimes in the world that by policy is not going green any time soon. That puts him in at special world of nutty professors. Or as they are known in the pop culture, he’s one of the nutters.

  103. Can’t the U.S. just send Hansen to China so he can become a permanent citizen there?
    A Win-Win for Hansen and America.

  104. I agree with Peter H that ad hominem attacks such as “miserable evil git” really do the sceptical cause no favours. Restrain yourselves! And the article posted here is sensationalist in that it follows slavishly the first rule of journalism “first simplify, then exaggerate”.

    However, the last paragraph, which seems to be a direct quote from Hansen, does indicate that he has lost the plot. The Chinese government taking the long view indeed? Ever since the Long March, in fact.

  105. Ya, clothes there is something “frivolous”.

    I like the George Best quote: “I spent most of my money on women and booze and the rest of it I wasted”.

  106. Am I the only one who gets the sense that even among CAGW believers Hansen is being ignored and isolated? As one comment was made above, he seems to be turning into a most useful fool.

  107. As a lay person looking to have a better understanding of the issues, whether as an “alarmist” or “skeptic”, I’m frustrated by the constant, overriding insult and personal attacks made by proponents of both sides of the debate. Regardless of how any reader may feel about Dr. Hansen in this specific case, or any member of the science “establishment”, better science, through civility, profesionalism and respect, should be extended for all readers of this site.
    I don’t agree with many hypothesis, real or reported, in support of the so-called “alarmist” position or even those assertions alledged to be made by Dr. Hansen but am saddened by the weakening of any individual’s position, expert or lay person, once they have resorted to opinion outside of integrity and common decency.

  108. mkelly says:
    January 18, 2011 at 7:31 am

    John Brookes says:
    January 18, 2011 at 3:17 am
    …” Funny thing though, it seems to me that much of our money is spent on frivolous things like clothes, flash cars, and houses which are much bigger than we need them to be.”

    Ya, clothes there is something “frivolous”.

    It’s 16 F and snowing here in western New Hampshire. Clothes are NOT optional (unless, of course, you stay inside and warm yourself by the CO2-belching fireplace).

  109. If you believe AGW…(and I don’t)….is it not the seed of World War III?????????? It is. But it hasn’t been (yet) that is because nobody does……….believe it. Really. When you think about it.

    Except for Hansen and a few associated brown shirts. A dictatorship he might find
    to his liking with the usual Hypocrisy/Marxism duality is Venezuela: A green oil exporter!!! Memo to Neo-Cons: How did our oil get under Venezuela??

  110. To deal with demand greater than supply, China, like many developing nations, uses rolling blackouts of both electricity and water (LA does it as a de-developing nation). They were doing it 16 yrs ago when I visited there. The Chinese are clever and have turned this into propaganda by claiming the blackouts are to meet their greenhouse targets. Anyone that falls for this silly trick, I have a bridge in the desert to sell you…

  111. I’ve been to China 12 times and spent a lot of time in the North…upper Inner Mongolia (IMAR) and Heilongjiang. It gave me some perspective on how they stay warm…and it is dirty. Very dirty. The Chinese peasant farm population is about the same as the population of North America. About 100++ million people live in the moderately cold to VERY cold north and they stay warm by heating uninsulated brick houses with corn stalks, other plant material and coal burned in brick fire boxes..maybe 50% efficiency. Unreal stench in villages..and there are tens of thousands of villages. It is -32°C right now in the north of IMAR. I can’t imagine the smoke in cities and towns. It was bad enough on a cool May morning.

    We’ve been told that China is a world leader in this or that alternative clean energy. They more wind farms, more solar, more this, more whatever … maybe they do have more clean energy sources. BUT at the same time they have WAY more dirty energy sources and burn more fossil fuels and emit more CO2 than anyone else.

    When most of us turn on a light switch, the energy use is documented. A large amount of fuel used by the Chinese is not document or accounted for in carbon accounting. An impossible feat. They have hundreds (thousands?) of coal mines and bet three egg rolls that a lot of the coal coming out of small mines is not accounted for. The smokey corn stover and soy straw sure as heck is not documented.

    I loved my time in China…it gave me some insights.

    Regards

    Clive

  112. From the Times article, “[Hansen’s] forecasts of climatic change for nearly the last quarter-century are fantasy, as is his notion that dictators are better than democracy and that our country should be bullied into submission.”

    Kind of like his approach to climate science.

  113. James Hansen should have been FIRED a long time ago. We taxpayers are funding him and he abuses his position, like many, many others who have gained prominent and influential places in high positions in government and throughout our universities. He and others have had this goal for 30 years, and now that they are all in place. Think about how the next generation is being ‘re-educated’ from an early age. My environmental responsibility and awareness started a long time ago in my home, and was heightened by the “Keep America Green” signs along the highways. The message internalized: “Do not waste. Do not litter. Do not poison the earth and air.” I believe and follow these common sense premises. We have a much more complex world and economic realities. It makes me think of Dwight D. Eisenhower actually, a prophetic and wise man. But the ‘environmental movement’ long ago was conscripted by extremists, who lie in order to exterminate ‘bad’ humanity. They seem to think the human animal has no place on earth, not understanding that ALL things living have their essential purpose. The next generation is being propagandized through the implementation of the mitigation and education guidelines manual that AGW “officials” for every state’s appointed climate and environment chairs are now using. Mitigation of weather and climate realities with common sense are needed, as always, but not the destruction of the beautiful balance of living things on our earth through the combination of sun and our position in relation to it, water, CO2 to make things grow and give off O2, and many other natural and essential elements and earthly geological treasures that sustain life. President Obama said on May 9, 2009, “There is no finish line in the world of science,” in regard to stem cell research. Shortly thereafter, he said, “The consensus of scientists is in,” concerning AGW. Political, economic, and social agendas drive a movement with “climate change” (or whatever the slogan of the day) only its excuse for action. Years have gone into putting the “right” scientists, educators, economists, and more into the positions to accomplish this agenda, and it will be very hard to stop. Democracy is the only hope to put a stop to the nonsense.

  114. Does Jim Hansen follow the news? China still uses lead in paint and jewelry. Remember the dog food recall of 2007, that was China too.

  115. Dude’s out of his mind. Does he have any idea how many coal plants china has and continue to build? Really, what an idiot. I get pretty hot when morons like this guy bat around policies of destruction when I’ll be on the receiving end.

  116. When will this Hansen person be fired. He works for the government and now is critizing our election process. NASA or who ever he works for : “PLEASE FIRE HIM”
    I dont want any of my tax dollars going to pay his salary.

  117. Hansen’s views on China are bizarre. China obtains 70% of its total energy consumption from coal, consumes about 50% of the worlds total coal fuel use and uses about three times more coal fuel each year versus what coal is consumed in the U.S. China’s annual CO2 emissions are about 1.5 billion metric tons per year greater than the U.S. and that difference is climbing at a rate of about 400 million metric tons per year. China’s use of solar and wind are well below 1% of its energy needs and more than 80% of China’s renewables consist of large hydro projects with this resource making up more than 5% of its total energy use. China dominates global solar and wind manufacturing with jobs supported by government subsidizes with these products shipped outside China and paid for through much higher energy costs by citizens in other countries. Hansen’s views on China are simply out of touch with reality.

  118. Hansen protests mountain top removal coal mining.

    Obama’s EPA revokes permits for mountain top coal removal coal mining that have already been granted and capital already spent on infrastructure.

    Hansen advocates the destruction of democracy in favor of communist China.

    Obama hires scores of communists, marxists and socialists for his administration.

    For those who doubt the Obama administration’s commitment to fruit loop global warming warming nuttery then I hope this puts it in perspective. These peas are all in the same pod.

  119. 3*2 said “Come on, at least try to keep up
    Try “China and the Barbarians: Part 1.” (currently three titles down)”

    So, Dr Hansen expresses an opinion and we get a torrent of foul criticisms viz:, that he is a’miserable evil old git.‘ a ‘complete and utter ignoramous [sic]‘ a ‘fanatic‘, ‘treasonous‘ that we ‘‘locate some village in China who is missing their idiot and book a flight there’ that he ‘espouses tyranny‘, that he should be (for using the great US freedom of speech I guess?) ‘deported‘, that he is a ‘despicable men [sic]‘, that he is in ‘intellectual and moral breakdown‘ that he ‘doesn’t understand economics‘ that he is (big surprise this) a ‘watermelon‘, that his piece is a ‘loony, near-treasonous rant‘ and, after that vast list of insults, ad-hom, vileness, character attacks and plain ignorance (that, somehow you missed or ignored, or think acceptable) YOU somehow feel able to criticise him for the use of the word ‘barbarious’ in a comment he wrote for his own website?

    Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

  120. Are the AGW’s willing to impose a totalitarian state?

    Apparently, Hansen is quite willing.

    I hope others are not so foolish.

    But the evidence suggests many AGW’s are willing to impose totalitarianism to achieve their objective.

  121. The Wash. Times doesn’t mention when this rant was given by Hansen. These aren’t 22 year old speeches, are they? My views have certainly changed in the last 22 years.

  122. @Colin Darling: I respect your position, but when Dr Hansen joined NASA and became a US government civil servant he swore the 1884 oath: “I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same…”.

    We now see him making speeches and writing articles in a foreign country (if the reports are correct) contending that the Constitution is inadequate to deal with climate change issues and suggesting that other nations impose tariffs directly against US economic interests. This is a dangerous game; it would not take much more to make him liable to impeachment. And all the while he is taking Uncle Sam’s dollar.

    I believe Dr Hansen has himself taken this past the realm of science into that of personal honor and politics, where comments on his actions are justified.

  123. Hohoho, I’ve got a gem, here. A comment deleted by lucia, acting in the finest of editorial traditions: ‘Is Maurice Strong advising the Chinese or are they advising him of his rights?’ Well, sure, the comment was off-topic in an excellent CO2 dwelltime thread, but it was at least responsive.
    ===============

  124. Hanson most likely swore and oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Even temporary Census workers have to.

    He has clearly violated his oath with these statements, and ought to not only be fired, but possibly imprisoned.

    I hope that Darrell Issa is able to investigate him thoroughly, not only for his oath-breaking, but also for his misappropriation of taxpayer funds to illegally engage in political activity on the taxpayer dime, and for acts of terrorism, such as in England.

  125. I agree, TimC, that comments, opinion, ideas and thoughts towards any individual or topic is always justifiable and our inherant right to partake of.
    Not even to defend Dr. Hansen, per se… just, all participants must realize how much more effective discourse is when used without personal, antagonistic method… keep it “clean”

  126. I was at an energy conference a couple of years ago and a Chinese Energy Ministry official showed some stats on their coal mining industry. Two stats that struck me from this were: 1) they kill 2000 to 6000 miners a year, and 2) they vent over 330 billion ft3 of methane per year out of their coal mines. If you consider that methane is about 13 times more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 that works out to over 4 trillion ft3 CO2 equalivant. That’s before we count the effluent from their growing number of coal power plants.

    Dr. Hansen you might want to choose your shining examples a little more carefully.

  127. Louis Hissink said (01/18/11, 2:46 am): “To stop Hansen’s agenda one needs to demolish his belief that the Venusian temperature is due to a runaway greenhouse gas effect. Until that happens, it’s all hot air being contributed by both sides.”

    amicus curiae said (01/18/11, 4:58 am): “funny that he left cos that program was canned, later someone else oversaw the Venus probe I thought? so who? and what? was the results..funny no one ever mentions it…”

    Lucy Skywalker said (01/18/11, 6:08 am): “…Probes measuring the energy output from Venus (I’m searching for the source data, either NASA Pioneers or Russia Venera) found that Venus is emitting more energy than reaches it from the Sun. Therefore it has a significant internal heat source. Therefore, of course it’s hot. No GHG effect can cause emitted energy to exceed incoming energy. No GHG effect is needed to explain the heat – even if it is a contributory factor. ”

    Apparently, the effort needed to argue keeps people from focussing on a determinative finding that would end the arguments once and for all if people put their minds to it. Lucy Skywalker is right, Hansen was wrong from the start, as was the massively popular but self-serving and incompetent Carl Sagan before him. The fact is, the “greenhouse effect” should have been demolished almost 20 years ago, when the Magellan spacecraft measured the pressure and temperature profiles of the atmosphere of Venus. Gerlich and Tscheuschner briefly discussed the Venusian “greenhouse effect” idea in the appendix of their March 2010 article:

    On the Barometric Formulas and Their Derivation…

    Their dismissal of the greenhouse effect on Venus is succinct and accurate: “On the one hand, since the venusian atmosphere is opaque to visible light, the central assumption of the greenhouse hypothesis is not obeyed. On the other hand, if one compares the temperature and pressure profiles of Venus and Earth, one immediately will see that they are both very similar.”

    Steven Goddard wrote about the comparison of temperatures in the atmospheres of Venus and Earth here on WUWT several months ago, but the combatants in the debate let it go by, as so many arguments do.

    I independently (before becoming aware of Gerlich and Tscheuschner’s paper, and not knowing the details of Steven Goddard’s effort) put forward a comparison of the Venus and Earth atmospheric temperatures, at corresponding pressures over the range from ~ 1 atm. down to -0.2 atm. (essentially encompassing the troposphere of Earth), back in November 2010:

    Venus: No Greenhouse Effect

    As I summarized in a post just yesterday on Claes Johnson’s blog site:

    “The only difference in their temperatures is entirely explained by their relative distances from the Sun. This is a monumental finding, in the context of the global warming debate, because it is so simple, and could have been done anytime since 1991, when the Venus data was obtained by the Magellan spacecraft. A student could do it, and the climate scientists should have done it, long ago. So let me repeat: Belief in the greenhouse effect is not just premature, not just overblown, not even just wrong. It is FUNDAMENTALLY INCOMPETENT, and has been for nearly 20 years. The debate of today is not a scientific one, it is an ideological one, and a political one.”

    The internet community needs to come together on this point, and stamp or laugh down the greenhouse effect in every discussion, because the scientific community has failed to do so, to everyone’s eventual regret.

  128. I wish this site allowed a preview, before posting; minor errors are so annoying — I compared the Venus and Earth atmospheric temperatures over the range from ~1 atm down to 0.2 atm, not -0.2 atm, of course.

  129. Clive, thanks for that reporting. I would only add that the corn stalks are renewable so they don’t count as added CO2.

  130. Peter H says:
    January 18, 2011 at 9:20 am

    “So, Dr Hansen expresses an opinion and we get a torrent of foul criticisms viz:, that he is a’miserable evil old git.‘ a ‘complete and utter ignoramous [sic]‘ a ‘fanatic‘, ‘treasonous‘ that we ‘‘locate some village in China who is missing their idiot and book a flight there’ that he ‘espouses tyranny‘, that he should be (for using the great US freedom of speech I guess?) ‘deported‘, that he is a ‘despicable men [sic]‘, that he is in ‘intellectual and moral breakdown‘ that he ‘doesn’t understand economics‘ that he is (big surprise this) a ‘watermelon‘, that his piece is a ‘loony, near-treasonous rant‘”

    Why Peter, your description of Hansen is so-oo colourful.

  131. NASA’s website lists the following under this loons page:

    “One of my research interests is radiative transfer in planetary atmospheres, especially interpreting remote sounding of the earth’s atmosphere and surface from satellites. Such data, appropriately analyzed, may provide one of our most effective ways to monitor and study global change on the earth. The hardest part is trying to influence the nature of the measurements obtained, so that the key information can be obtained.”

    STOP TRYING TO INFLUENCE DATA!!!!! you are a disgrace and should have your credentials revoked.

  132. Here’s what the ultra-green Chinese are doing. But this info is slightly dated and their targets for nuclear power output by 2020 are now higher.

    I guess Hansen loves coal after all. And look at that massive shift into wind power.

    “Mainland China has 13 nuclear power reactors in operation, 25 under construction, and more about to start construction soon.

    Additional reactors are planned, including some of the world’s most advanced, to give more than a tenfold increase in nuclear capacity to 80 GWe by 2020, 200 GWe by 2030, and 400 GWe by 2050…

    Most of mainland China’s electricity is produced from fossil fuels (80% from coal, 2% from oil, 1% from gas in 2006) and hydropower (15%). Two large hydro projects are recent additions: Three Gorges of 18.2 GWe and Yellow River of 15.8 GWe. Rapid growth in demand has given rise to power shortages, and the reliance on fossil fuels has led to much air pollution. The economic loss due to pollution is put by the World Bank at almost 6% of GDP.1 In 2009 power shortages were most acute in central provinces, particularly Hubei, and in December the Central China Grid Co. posted a peak load of 94.6 GW.

    Domestic electricity production in 2009 was 3643 billion kWh, 6.0% higher than the 3,450 billion kWh in 2008, which was 5.8% more than in 2007 (3,260 billion kWh) and it is expected to rise to 3,810 billion kWh in 2010. Installed capacity had grown by the end of 2009 to 874 GWe, up 10.2% on the previous year’s 793 GWe, which was 11% above the previous year’s 713 GWe.2 Capacity growth is expected to slow, reaching about 1600 GWe in 2020. At the end of 2007, there was reported to be 145 GWe of hydro capacity, 554 GWe fossil fuel, 9 GWe nuclear and 4 GWe wind, total 713 GWe. In 2008, the country added 20.1 GWe of hydro capacity, 65.8 GWe coal-fired capacity, and 4.7 GWe wind.”

    http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf63.html

  133. One wonders what type of a contract he managed to sign to not have to worry over getting booted for clear disloyalty violations.

    Being the head of a department or organization you’re what is portraying that organization to the outside world. Ridiculing, or dragging the organizations name in the dirt, directly or indirectly, voluntary or involuntary, is being disloyal to your own organization either knowingly or by incompetence (as in with your position you should’ve known better.)

    Whit in a more democratic union such is the EU, what ever contract you sign it is still a pretty serious offense of work ethic and business law to be disloyal to your own organization, especially by incompetency especially when having a leadership position.

    But in US, apparently it doesn’t matter for how many years, even decades, certain organizations are dragged in the mud and made the laughing stock off. Could, possibly be, why most people seem to have more respect for the Chilean space program ‘an for NASA (What other organization can claim to have gone from, in 1960’s, putting a man on the moon to, 2010, being question of how they able to put a man on the moon when their present, 2010, day “science” is more like the scrapping under the 1920’s science shoes.)

  134. I think this is great news. Hansen’s mouth is a wonderful thing. He has just confirmed that he is, in fact, a Watermelon masquerading as a ‘scientist,’ which can only reduce the perceived credibility of his numbers, etc.

    Also, I once read somewhere that Hansen was appointed to his job by none other than Nobel Peace Prize Winner Al Gore while he was VP. Can anyone confirm that?

  135. China has real pollution problems that they are trying to deal with. Any reduction of CO2 is a convenient coincidence that they will brag about to make the world happy.

  136. From Harry Dale Huffman on January 18, 2011 at 10:12 am:

    I wish this site allowed a preview, before posting; minor errors are so annoying —

    A browser-based Preview function is available, which comes with Very Helpful HTML tools for prettying up your post. Designed for Firefox, also works with Firefox (Mozilla) variants like Iceweasel (Debian Linux version).

    It’s called CA Assistant, originally made for the Climate Audit site, works here just fine. Links and installation instructions are here:
    http://climateaudit.org/ca-assistant/

    Enjoy!

  137. crosspatch says:
    January 18, 2011 at 2:45 am
    “So is he arguing for a Chinese style nuclear development and fuel recycling program?
    I would go for that.”

    crosspatch, Hansen is pro nuclear.
    OTOH, he also endorsed that Keith Farnish book that says blowing up dams is an acceptable way to solve Gaia’s problems. Blowing up a nuclear plant would surely please Mr. Farnish even more, as it would destroy even more human pests.

    So, Hansen is a little inconsequential… I think it comes with age; Lovelock suffers from the same syndrome.

    Both are highly useful for us.

  138. bill-tb says: “The 50-70 million dead Chinese, killed under Mao, nicely falsify the Hansen theory don’t they.”

    Ah, but Hansen thinks 60+ million people represent mere “short term” consequences. You can’t make honorable egg roll without breaking eggs.

    Can you say, “Messiah Complex?” I knew you could. I’ll bet you can say, “Ignorant Wackazoid,” too.

    https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Messiah_Complex

  139. Peter H says:
    January 18, 2011 at 9:20 am
    “….So, Dr Hansen expresses an opinion…etc, etc, etzzzzzzzz”

    Tell us, Peter, in your support of Dr Hansen and his espousal of the Chinese methods of how to run a country, do you therefore think that the we should have a government that can, arbitrarily, cause brown-outs, power cuts and the closure of CO2-emitting industries – at will?

    Do you really feel that the rather spurious claim for CAGW and its (possible) curtailment is worth YOUR freedom? And that of your fellows?

    Are you really as anti-democratic as you appear to be? Or are you coy about your political allegiances? And if you are, I guess you would be equally coy about admitting how China solves so many of its problems – like 20m dead, and counting, so far?

  140. Climate Nazi or Climate Marxist? Not so different I think….wanting us to abdicate responsibility to them……because these things are too urgent and important to wait for democracy to come round to….

  141. I’m sure Dr. Hansen would be very happy with the internet situation in China as I know from firsthand experience- that WUWT is one of the few scientific sites that has wound up on the banished list of the “Great Firewall”. How nice it is not to have to cope with a full spectrum of views that just might interfere with government policy and implementation efforts.

  142. @bill-tb

    “The 50-70 million dead Chinese, killed under Mao, nicely falsify the Hansen theory don’t they.”

    Apparently Hansen thinks there’s too many people on this planet so, apparently, to him and his logic, Mao didn’t starve enough people to death. :(

  143. Very common thread above: “Why is Hansen still employed?”

    Seems he and the EPA have the same boss! Useful idiots abound!

  144. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
    All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
    Couldn’t put Humpty together again.

  145. Dr. Hanson’s expressions of opinion benefit greatly from his position at NASA. If he is now comparing China’s efforts to those of the US, then perhaps he should be removed from his position and let his opinion not be given the boost it gets from being on the public dole.
    Oh, wait a minute, that makes too much sense in this day and age in which every ridiculous opinion has to be fostered and sheltered in the name of free speech. This is no longer science and shouldn’t be protected.

  146. One of the great tragedies of our time is that Hansen is still employed in a taxpayer funded position. He has always been more of an attention seeking drama queen than a scientist and should have been terminated years ago, I remember quite well his we’re all going to freeze to death yawping back in the 70s. What’s interesting about this is that he has let the mask slip and shown the true totalitarian face of the AGW movement.

    Folks like Hansen always fancy that they would declared emperor by acclamation due to their awesome brilliance and virtue, that being their due, but never quite grasp that they would be the first to go should their totalitarian fantasies come true. It would be interesting, but cruel, to drop Jim Hansen into China and see how long he would last. Not long, I suspect.

  147. China’s goal:

    Power Generation. According to numerous experts, China is currently in a period of relative balance between demand for electricity and the availability of supplies from the country’s electric utilities. New generating capacity will continue to be added, however, to replace older, less efficient power plants and to provide electricity for areas that do not yet have sufficient supplies. Under the country’s current 5-Year Plan, electric generating capacity is to be increased to a target level of 290 gigawatts (GW) by 2000. An estimated 15,000 megawatts (MW) of generating capacity will be added each year, at an annual cost of about $15 billion. Most of China’s electric generating capacity is provided by coal.

    See also http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9947668

    Maybe Hansen hasn’t checked with the new overlords about what their intentions are for the future.

    http://www.ita.doc.gov/doctm/asiatm1.html

  148. Peter H said…
    Anyway, where does Dr Hansen say what is claimed he did? The fact is he didn’t say that he would ‘rather have us ruled by China’ or anything like that. The whole premise of the piece is utterly bogus.

    Perhaps you should read all the article Peter or it is Devionian i get confused when you post under different names.
    The guys biting the hand that feeds him and is applauding a country that is a one party state, if thinks its such a wonderful place why not go there, i understand they have lots of coal fired powerstaions which he could protes…….ohh hang on he won’t be able to that in a communist run state,and hasn’t he been protesting at powerstations in the USA where he’s allowed to protest.Democracy ain’t it wonderful
    Hansen needs to sit down and think whats he’s saying for a change.Trouble is his mouth been running away in gear for years, he needs to push the clutch peddle and engage his brain, quite clearly he has trouble operating both at the same time.

    Apologie’s if you are not Devionain.

  149. “”””” Steeptown says:
    January 18, 2011 at 1:56 am
    He’s long past retirement age. Surely some suitably qualified person could look at his ramblings and make judgements about his state of senility/paranoia/Alzheimers? “””””

    So what is the link between each of those mental deficiencies and age. There’s zillions of people suffering from advanced paranoia; yet are still wet behind the ears; so there isn’t any age link there. While senility seems to occur more often in the elderly; it certainly isn’t an essential end state of old age.

    And Alzheimers, is well known to be a genetic disease; so it occurs in people who carry the genes for that; and they can show the early signs of the disease while in the prime of life; so it too is not a disease of old age. It IS a slowly developing disease, so people with it, tend to be older by the time they are sufficiently disable to need special care.

    As one who is well beyond retirement age; so far beyond that my favorite Uncle doesn’t want me to retire; so they make me take out my retirement funds every year and pay it all to them in taxes; yes I did say all of it. Just made a tax payment of $5500 this morning, and the retirement fund money to cover that won’t hit my account until tomorrow. My co-workers didn’t even know I was beyond retirement age, until someone else spilled the beans; and they threw me an old geezer’s Birthday party.

    You certainly don’t have to be old to have stupid ideas; but it helps if you have a good teacher. Luckily I never had any stupid teacher to teach me stupid.

  150. These rants seem to becoming a trend in the warminist camp as Mike Hasler pointed out.Trenberth,Peterson, now again Hansen.You don’t hink these buggers will use insanity as defence when the hearings/trials start.Or maybe they are trying to secure
    places on the chat show circuit.

  151. Snotrocket says:
    January 18, 2011 at 11:14 am

    “Tell us, Peter, in your support of Dr Hansen and his espousal of the Chinese methods of how to run a country, do you therefore think that the we should have a government that can, arbitrarily, cause brown-outs, power cuts and the closure of CO2-emitting industries – at will?”

    While we are on the subject of what the Chinese government tells its people to do, how about telling them that couples can have no more than one child unless they want to face serious consequences? I guess Dr. Hansen has been too busy to discover that one. In my mind, that one really crosses a moral line that no clear thinker can accept. But, hey, if you are Paul Ehrlich that might be just your prescription.

  152. Its about time Hansen was committed to a looney bin where he belongs.

    Its about time people realised he lost his marbles sometime ago.

  153. Last October, just after his second arrest, a foolish Japanese company (Asahi Glass Co.) awarded him The Blue Planet Prize with a cash of JPY 50,000,000 (USD 600,000). Sigh…..

  154. geoff says:
    January 18, 2011 at 3:23 am

    … China is an ecological basket case yet the Left keeps calling them green. It seems they like China because it is there that govt can get things done….

    Uh, huh? Like keeping melamine out of the baby formula? Or lead out of the toys?

  155. The Chinese Government also has the right to shoot the citizens of china in the back of the head – after a fair trial of course.

    They also retain the right to run over their citizens in battle tanks.

    Of course that’s all forgivable as they are going to save the planet…

  156. In mandarin dialect the word that describes Dr Hansen’s intellectual/moral shortcomings would be ‘shao-ren’. Translated literally it means small person. It is understood to mean a small minded person.

    For the sake of the free world, I encourage Hansen to expand his inane attack on the free world and open science. His talking reduces the already small possibility that any open minded individual will consider his ideologically biased science credible.

    China is a totalitarian dictatorship which is in a apparent benevolent phase; the governments planned purpose of that phase is the accumulation of government (the party’s) wealth. The government’s interests are paramount, not the interests of individuals.

    Hansen should be forced to resign. I will let my congressmen know.

    John

  157. Nice picture of Hansen. An even more believable one would have been one of his booking photos.

    He has been arrested twice, for trespassing (once for protesting the policies of his boss – the POTUS).

    Shows how much he’s advanced.

  158. Ho hum, Snotrocket and someone else asked me to address a few points. Apparently Mr Hansen has made some truly outrageous predictions:

    * Sea levels will eventually rise 25 meters above today’s levels when CO2 level reach 400 ppm in 2016.

    It would be easy to misread this as saying that sea levels will rise by 25m in the next 5 years, wouldn’t it? You just need to remove the “eventually” from the sentence.

    * Sea levels will further rise to 75 meters when we reach 550 ppm.

    Oh goody, this time the “eventually” has been left out. That is, if we reach 550 ppm, then eventually sea levels will rise 75m.

    * Climate zones are shifting 50-60 km per decade, which will eventually lead to mass extinctions of animals and plants.

    Could be alarmist, could be true. Humans have caused the extinction of a lot of species of large animals already. Why stop now?

    * Increasing CO2 to 550 ppm by burning fossil fuels will lead to a “desolate, ice-free planet…”

    Could be true. Should we take a chance that its not? As skeptics, how come you guys are so certain its not true? Aren’t you keeping an open mind?

    * “Transition to the ice-free state will be chaotic and out of humanity’s control…”

    Well, if we move to an ice-free planet, it is highly likely that the transition will be chaotic. It would be almost impossible for it to be otherwise.

    However, the main thing I gained from reading the comments in this thread is that you guys are intent on attacking climate scientists who come to conclusions you don’t like. For example, whatever the sins of Jones, Trenberth, Hansen at el, they hardly match the efforts of Monckton (not to mention Plimer), yet you don’t get stuck into his lordship, because he is on your side.

    As for this wonderful faith in the USA, do you ever try and see yourselves as the rest of the world sees you? The country where they espouse democracy, but the 2000 presidential election was won by some dude with the help from the supreme court full of judges his dad appointed and a state run by his brother? The country which thinks it is fine to try and arrest Julian Assange because he dared to let a bit of embarrassing information come to light? The country where the party which is not in power acts like a mob of religious crazies? The country that chose to bail out the rich people who bet on the collapse of the housing bubble? The country that hates socialism so much that it can’t bring itself to provide proper medical care to its population, but somehow doesn’t see agricultural subsidies and military spending as (very expensive) socialism? The country which allows fruitcakes to buy automatic weapons? The country which invaded Iraq on the false pretext of WMD?

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure the USA is a great place for most of its citizens, just like France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, the UK, etc etc etc. Hell, I reckon even most North Koreans have been brainwashed into thinking their country is good. But it would be nice if the citizens of the US could see things without their patriotic blinkers for a change (as should everyone, everywhere in the world).

    The US is a good place, with some flaws – just like most other countries on earth. Actually, given that the US gave us the internet, google, facebook etc etc etc, it must have some really wonderful things going for it. On the other hand, it also gave us Macca’s, KFC and Starbucks, so its not all good…..

  159. John Brookes says: {January 18, 2011 at 6:34 pm}
    “As for this wonderful faith in the USA, do you ever try and see yourselves as the rest of the world sees you? The country where they espouse democracy, but the 2000 presidential election was won by some dude with the help from the supreme court full of judges his dad appointed and a state run by his brother?”

    It is not my desire to take a political turn to this thread however this statement is so untrue it needs to be challenged. Florida law requires that the vote be certified by the local supervisor of elections within a certain time frame. The Secretary of State of Florida sought to enforce that law and required the districts in question to transmit the certified votes on time. Those districts decided they weren’t going to be able to finish the recount on time so they appealed to the Florida State Supreme Court who then, without legal authority, sought to change the law by decree and extent the deadline.

    This is when an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court was made but not about the recount but rather about the Florida Supreme Court trying to rewrite the law themselves. The Florida Supreme Court was not allowed rewrite the law and the Florida Secretary of State then called for the certified vote count to be submitted on time as it eventually was.

    And just a side note, if Al Gore had won his home state of Tennessee he would have won the election without regard to the Florida vote. Now you know the real story but I am sure you will go on believing what you wish to be true, just like the entire AGW crowd.

  160. I couldn’t resist:

    [IMG]http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu44/themaverickone/hansen2.jpg[/IMG]

    Not sure if that will work. If not, here’s the link:

    Use as you wish. My tribute to James “Coal Train” Hansen. Guess I need a new nickname in light of this story…Chairman James of the People’s Republic of GISS? I’ll work on that. Off to bed for now. Cheers!

  161. Ah yes, Tom of Florida, I’d forgotten the old dictum, “never attribute to malice that which can equally well be ascribed to stupidity”, which seems to apply in spades to Florida’s electoral laws.

  162. John Whitman says:

    “In mandarin dialect the word that describes Dr Hansen’s intellectual/moral shortcomings would be ‘shao-ren’. Translated literally it means small person. It is understood to mean a small minded person. ”

    To this I would like to add that he is also a ‘zho goh’ (running dog) of the collectivist would-be tyrants and thus clearly a ‘renmin di dira’ (enemy of the people)

    On a more serious note, there are thousands of highly educated people who are witnessing their life’s work, the source of all their prestige and the foundation of their self-worth evaporate. Although it is difficult, we should all try to avoid deriving excessive pleasure from the “wailing and gnashing of teeth” we are now witnessing in the AGW community. This is not to say we should let up on them. Their misery is an infinitesimal fraction of that which they seek to impose on others.

  163. I don’t think Hansen wants the US to be ruled BY China. He wants us to be ruled LIKE China. The actual ruling would be done by him and his friends who know what is best for the entire world and are more than willing to tell us what to do.

    “The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”
    — H.L. Mencken

  164. From John Brookes, the Apologist, on January 18, 2011 at 6:34 pm:

    The country which allows fruitcakes to buy automatic weapons?

    Pull the other one.

    Here in the USA we have the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to determine who is eligible to buy firearms. This check is performed prior to completing the purchase.
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics

    Refer to the Fact Sheet:
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet

    Among the “Federal Categories of Persons Prohibited From Receiving” firearms is the following:

    # An unlawful user and/or an addict of any controlled substance; for example, a person convicted for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; or a person with multiple arrests for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past five years with the most recent arrest occurring within the past year; or a person found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided the test was administered within the past year.
    # A person adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution or incompetent to handle own affairs, including dispositions to criminal charges of found not guilty by reason of insanity or found incompetent to stand trial.

    Of course, first one needs to be officially identified as a “fruitcake” then that info must be forwarded to the FBI, before they will get flagged by NICS. As we heard regarding the recent Tuscon shooting tragedy, as we too often hear when such happen, there were numerous opportunities for various officials to have sent the shooter off to a mental health evaluation, as the wording goes “to determine if they are a threat to themselves and/or others,” but the officials didn’t do so, thus the shooter wasn’t officially known as a “fruitcake.”

    Meanwhile, for legally possessing automatic weapons (machine guns) there’s another layer of governmental blessing to secure. They are covered by the National Firearms Act (NFA) and other statutes, subject to National Firearm Registration, administration of such by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF). Technically, manufacturers, makers, and importers register NFA firearms, they are transferred to qualifying individuals. Review the relevant ATF FAQ:
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html

    There is a lengthy application process involved, including the submission of photos and fingerprints. Since all such weapons must be thusly registered, and there can be no transfers without ATF approval, there are no allowable private transfers between individuals of these weapons, whereas transfer of non-NFA firearms may be allowable without going through an ATF licensee thus without the NICS check.

    There may also be additional state and local burdens to acquiring ownership of automatic weapons.

    Therefore, if it is officially known by the US government (FBI) that a person is a “fruitcake,” that person is not allowed to purchase automatic weapons in the USA. You are wrong.

    And neither was the fruitcake I ate at Christmas.

  165. John Brookes says:
    January 18, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    As for this wonderful faith in the USA, do you ever try and see yourselves as the rest of the world sees you?

    Well, John, at least the people you say have “this wonderful faith in the USA” are presumeably viewing and judging the USA based upon living there under its fairly unique individualist Constitution, and are not merely Europeans referring to America’s role in defeating Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union’s enslavement of Eastern Europe. While, in contrast, you not only don’t live there, you also apparently think you speak for the whole freaking “rest of the world”! Which seems a bit more narcissistic, don’t you think?

    And, John, just because President Obama has declared himself “partners with God in matters of life and death”, please don’t think the rest of us freedom loving Americans automatically share his megalomaniacal totalitarian delusions. You and Hansen might, but we don’t.

  166. John Brookes says:
    January 18, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    Please obtain some knowledge of the United States before you criticize us. The majority of what you said was substantially wrong.

    Is the problem simple ignorance or are you holding some kind of grudge? Who knows, maybe it’s “patriotic blinkers.”

    The 2000 election was won legitimately, challenged, the challenger overruled, and the (unofficial) recount won by the same person who won the first time. Assange didn’t just release embarrassing information, he participated in espionage, which is probably even illegal in your country. Your “party of crazies” observation is simply personal prejudice on your part, everyone thinks their political opposition is crazy, without exception. Your minor treatise on subsidies is disjointed and contradictory, but the number of people who “wait to death” in countries with government-controlled medical care is not encouraging. The problem of inappropriate subsidies is hardly an “American problem.”

    As is pointed out above, “fruitcakes” are not “allowed” to purchase “automatic” weapons, automatic weapons are heavily regulated and limited to a narrow registered pool – no new ones are allowed to be added to private ownership at all since 1986. There are laws against the mentally ill owning firearms, the law cannot be blamed if an official does not follow it.

    There were 23 “pretexts” for invading Iraq (listed in the authorization – I think 2 of them may have been vague or repetetive). Iraq had previously repeatedly used WMDs, and were actively pursuing development of more. We recovered a substantial number of tons of WMDs from Iraq, would you like to swim in it? That’s not counting the amount supposedly smuggled to Syria and later blown up (thanks Israel!) at a weapons research site under construction.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there’s *something* you know that comports well with reality, just nothing we’re talking about here.

    The US is “just like every other country in the world” in relatively few ways, objectively. That is as far away as possible from saying that “a person” anywhere in the world is less valuable nor deserves a shot at freedom and happiness – but that attitude, again, distinguishes us from many countries.

    We don’t claim to be perfect, and we don’t have to claim to be different, that much is obvious.

    As a token sop to the topic, what Hansen is advocating is tyranny, quite literally, by claiming that imposition of his views is simply more efficient than letting people decide. The problem with this viewpoint is that the people doing the imposing are also people – and just as dumb and error-prone as the people they impose upon.

    Not to mention the particularly brutal and bloody history (and current events) of the example he chose.

    I’m kind of aghast that anyone thinks this is an appropriate thing to say. It’s some sort of bizarre compartmentalization that thinks you can strip everyone of the protection of law and participatory government and the result *won’t* be massive bloodshed, and the same old mental flaw that causes people to say things like “it would have worked if the right people had been in charge.”

    At this point I can only shake my head.

  167. The only defense I have of my huge semi-topical post is that the controversial part of the original statement this is about is essentially political.

    /weak defense

  168. ‘Mycroft’ said “Perhaps you should read all the article Peter or it is Devionian i get confused when you post under different names.”

    LOL, I don’t have a clue who you are, you quite clearly know who I am. I am the one taking the risk by being honest about who I am, you are the one hiding your identity.

  169. Peter H.
    We’ve crossed keyboards on netweather i seem to remember,if you “taking a risk” (whatever that means )why not post under the name you’ve posted on here before
    Devionain….who’s being honest now!!

  170. Mycroft,

    I post here as Peter H, I used to post using my full name until somebody decided to dig about and use what he found against me – I’m not aware I’ve use the other name I use on weather/climate forums on WUWT.

    Since using your real name is something you choose not to do, I think it’s rich you lecturing me on what name I should use. I’ve learnt that using your full name exposes one to the kind of post you make but can’t have made of you. So, go away and come back and criticise me when you are in a position so to do.

    Anyway, enough, I’m not here to debate who I am with a pseudonym but to point out the barrage of insults a fine scientist is receiving – if that barrage of insults is science then my name is Mycroft…[is this really adding much to the debate? . . Anthony thinks we should all be using our real names and I agree]

  171. The ignorance displayed by the Hansens and the Brookes of the world is disappointing, but quite obviously not correctable.

    We can only strive to keep these people out of power long enough for them to prove their ignorance to the public, then time will take care of them. In the meantime, please teach your children not only to obtain, but to try to understand, all of the available evidence before taking a controversial position on a topic. If they do that, they will soon realize how little they actually know, and how questionable any position is.

  172. Peter H

    Sorry but it cuts no ice with me, you posted here With both names, the fact you choose to use your real name now is neither here or there and tarring every one with the same brush is not on. I know who you are Peter H or Devionain i’ve no need to dig nor has any one else. And i was not lecturing you i merely pointed out to you to read the article.
    No, insults are not science. Nor is pal review,having to adjust raw data to suit the message,or lack of willing to engage in sceintific debate. etc etc etc etc.
    people can can change names and pseudonym’s …..how do think i know who you are, if you post under one name……..no problem’ s arise!

  173. Peter H says:
    January 19, 2011 at 5:48 am
    I’m not here to debate who I am with a pseudonym but to point out the barrage of insults a fine scientist is receiving – if that barrage of insults is science then my name is Mycroft

    The thing that you keep missing is that Hansen is a scientist in name only. What he espouses has only the trappings of science, but which is actually merely a Belief system which you apparently have bought hook, line, and sinker. He makes a fine snake oil salesman, I’ll give him that. In an earlier era, folks like him would have either been laughed at, or perhaps tarred and feathered. His treatment here is the modern-day equivalent to tarring and feathering, and well-deserved.

  174. I wonder what Hansen thought when China torpedoed all the wonderful plans at COP 15 in Copenhagen?

    Is this guy really that stupid?? Personally, I just think he’s 100% certifiably nuts. His “Venus Syndrome” stuff gives me the creeps.

  175. John Brookes says:
    January 18, 2011 at 9:24 pm

    Ah yes, Tom of Florida, I’d forgotten the old dictum, “never attribute to malice that which can equally well be ascribed to stupidity”, which seems to apply in spades to Florida’s electoral laws.

    John, I guess you missed Tom’s point about the Fla. recount not being about “stupid” Florida electoral laws, but instead about the Gore/Progressive “win at any cost” to existing law by “whatever means necessary”?

    Tom in Florida says:
    January 18, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    This is when an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court was made but not about the recount but rather about the Florida Supreme Court trying to rewrite the law themselves.

    Right, and that was my “first clue” that something very bad was up with the Fla. Supreme Court: as I recall, on a thursday they ruled to extend the vote “certification” time of 8 days from the election before they even heard the case on extending the certification time, 4 days later on monday! After all, the weekend was fast approaching, and just who is the Florida Legislature, anyway, to have passed these suddenly inconvenient State election laws?

    Then, John, again as I recall, nearly at the end of the whole fiasco, the Fla. Supreme Court struck again and overturned the hearing findings of at least two Democrat Judges who had ruled favorably on the adequacy of the votes in two of the “challenged” voting precincts, and also ruled that Fla. needed to do a total State recount [say what?] – which I don’t think was even asked for[?] in the appeal and which hadn’t been questioned before – which would have made it impossible for the Florida vote per se to seat Fla.’s electors because of too little time, in which case Gore would have won the Presidential election! Except that the Republican dominated Fla. Legislature would have seated Fla.’s electors in time according to its own powers, but which would probably have been challenged by “Gore” up the the USSC, therefore maybe running out the clock as to seating the Fla. electors? So the USSC ruled to put and end to the matter, and the effete Judge Breyer began whinning about the 5-4 decision as the most egregious thing ever done by the USSC, as though the USSC never has 5-4 decisions!

  176. @John Brookes, January 18, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    I have a horrible feeling that you may be a Brit. I do hope not. But let me take your last point first. You say:

    “The US is a good place, with some flaws – just like most other countries on earth. Actually, given that the US gave us the internet, google, facebook etc etc etc, it must have some really wonderful things going for it. On the other hand, it also gave us Macca’s, KFC and Starbucks, so its not all good…..”

    Well, my G*d, aren’t you the most patronising poster!

    Not content with displaying your own ignorance and lack of depth in argument and civilised discourse, you run a pretty slimy diversion by taking a poke at American know-how and get-up-and-go. Well, for that you shall be known; and for that you shall be dismissed in the company of serious debaters.

    You start your comments by trying to answer the points raised about Dr Hansen’s ‘outrageous predictions’, and you don’t seem to find them outrageous in the least. Instead to try to hang a thread on the word ‘eventually’ – which, as far as you’re concerned means far, far away. But it could just as easily mean soon. However, when it comes to the claim that ‘sea levels will rise 75M when we reach 55oppm’, you seem to welcome this. As if you look forward with relish that this calamitous event will happen: ‘Oh goody’, you say. How very poor, I say.

    And let me tell you, you can’t strike the argument by just stating: ‘Could be alarmist, could be true’. That might be the Gore school of science (where you learnt all about the ‘precautionary principle, no doubt), but in the world of real scientists and intellects, the Gallic shrug does not count. You cannot base the spending of trillions of tax dollars on the definition of your ‘could’.

    BTW: can you tell us about the ‘extinction of… large animals [caused by humans]’? I mean, other than Gore’s polar bears? You just open your mouth to change feet, don’t you?

    You ask if we skeptics are keeping an open mind. Well, I’ll tell you, I tend to find the minds of skeptics to be a darned sight more open and receptive of opposing views than religionists like you. Where you may think you have an open mind, I tend to the belief that you confuse ‘open’ with ‘blank’. That is, you have nothing in it, at least, an original thought outside the construct of Al Gore’s ridiculous claims.

    As for ‘(you) guys attacking climate scientists’, you should understand a couple of things: 1. they are not all climate scientists (Hansen is an astronomer), 2. scientific argument and skepticism is the way science works, Where the ‘attacks’ take place is where corruption and anti-science exists. You should be prepared to join with us in that, if you had an open mind.

    And then you go on to unfavourably compare Hansen and Trenberth et al with the likes of Monckton: I really, honestly wonder, have you EVER read anything Monckton has written, or viewed any of his lectures? Have you got the smarts to actually (and so arrogantly) even begin to measure the man, who Gore and his ilk REFUSE to engage in any form of debate? And his ‘Lordship’ (as you so patronisingly put it – my, you do have an enormous chip on your very slight shoulders) has had many detractors who have tried and failed in debate with him. He himself, will always tell you (I have seen him do so) that he is NOT telling you HE is right. He just points out the discrepancies in the AGW argument and asks YOU to look for the validation of the proof he offers. You really do know not whereof you speak.

    And then you go on to heap your bilious patronage on the country that singularly maintains the freedom of the democratic world (OK, along with Great Britain) and you wonder why the other posters here think you talk out of your rear end (as it happens, as most of what you talk is utter ‘merde’, it’s a good place to have you voice!).

    I urge you, once again, in the spirit of open-ness and balanced debate to spend a bit of time researching more on Monckton and Carter. And if you ever dared to post such comments as you have placed here against a post by Willis Eschenbach, I fear you would be talking out of a brand-new orifice when he has finished with you.

  177. John Brookes: * Increasing CO2 to 550 ppm by burning fossil fuels will lead to a “desolate, ice-free planet…”
    Could be true. Should we take a chance that its not? As skeptics, how come you guys are so certain its not true? Aren’t you keeping an open mind?

    Isn’t the word “desolate” just apocalyptic rhetoric contradicted by the optimal evidence?

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desolate
    –adjective
    1. barren or laid waste; devastated
    ===

    Earth’s Climatic History
    […] By 5000 to 3000 BC average global temperatures reached their maximum level during the Holocene and were 1 to 2 degrees Celsius warmer than they are today. Climatologists call this period the Climatic Optimum. During the Climatic Optimum, many of the Earth’s great ancient civilizations began and flourished.
    http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7x.html
    ===========

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/optimum
    –noun
    1. the best or most favorable point, degree, amount, etc., as of temperature, light, and moisture for the growth or reproduction of an organism.
    ===========

    “Plants are able to use more carbon dioxide than the .03 to .04 percent that naturally occurs in the air. By increasing the amount of carbon dioxide to .10 to .15 percent (1000 to 1500 ppm.), plants grow two to three times as fast, providing that light, water and nutrients are not limiting. […]
    The demands of carbon dioxide-enriched plants are much greater than normal and plants require increased maintenance. They use nutrients, water*, and space about twice as fast as normal. A higher temperature range (24 to 30C), will help stimulate more rapid chemical processes within the super plants. […]
    In fact, some people get frustrated using carbon dioxide. It causes plants to grow so fast, that unsuspecting gardeners are unable to keep up with them.

    Gardening Indoors (revised ed.), George F. Van Patten, 1995
    ============

    Why do you believers think that the cool and malnourished atmosphere we have today is the ideal condition?

  178. Khwarizmi says:

    “Why do you believers think that the cool and malnourished atmosphere we have today is the ideal condition?”

    It may not be, but it is roughly what human civilisation has adjusted to. The problem may not be any final new climate state we find ourselves in, but it will be in the getting there.

  179. You do realize that humans have not “adjusted” to the global average temperature, right? We live in an extremely wide range oof climates and can withstand even larger extremes without any effort. I don’t know of any location that is at the average all the time. In fact, the point about warmer being better, when made in reference to an “ideal climate,” has almost nothing to do with humans and almost everything to do with plant life.

    Mark

  180. The article written is in response to Hansen’s call to China to lead the way in the fighting global warming. Its not at all the fiction that those at dreamed up at the Washington Times. The Washington Times has a poor reputation for truthful reporting – see Wikipedia “Washington Times”

    Anyway, for those that care to read the real essay about what Hansen wrote, its a good positive piece. Its in the November 3 South China Morning Post. Google Hansen and South China Morning Post or follow this link.

    http://www.johnenglander.net/sites/default/files/Jim%20Hansen%20China%20OpEd%20110310.pdf

  181. Humm, John Brooks has the temerity to refer to ‘Lord’ Mockton as ‘his lordship’ and make some criticism of the US and Snotrocket replys (a post that is one long ad hom) that John Brooks is ‘patronising’, ‘ignorant’, ‘religionist’, ‘arrogant’ and talking out of you know where (presumably using his ‘blank’ mind). And then (LOL!) Snotrock claims it’s this place is one of ‘serious debate’.

    Give the Snotrocket a loud halier – he needs to be heard more widely!

  182. Mark T:

    “You do realize that humans have not “adjusted” to the global average temperature, right? We live in an extremely wide range of climates and can withstand even larger extremes without any effort. ”

    Yeah sure. We have adjusted in many ways – where we plant our crops, where we’ve built our cities etc etc. The problem is that its kind of hard to move a city, and tough on farmers to realise that what was once arable land is now desert. No doubt plants will thrive in the tropical conditions, and that may help a bit…

  183. Thanks for that Peter H. I try to provoke a little, and it is fun to see just how much abuse comes back. The level of self righteous anger is amazing at times.

    Anyway, sites devoted to the idea that AGW is bunkum need the occasional visit from a troll. It spices them up a bit.

  184. @John Brookes & Peter H. And you think your studied naivete had not been spotted? ‘It was only when I read Al Gore’s book that I decided my stance on AGM’ (I paraphrase)! Such innocence John! (NOT) Oh, how we laughed at that one!

    The thing is, you both gave me and a lot of other people here a great deal of fun. And, Peter, if you think my post was ad hom, you’ve led a very sheltered life. But then, I’m pretty sure that trolls like you two have been well trained (and I’ve seen the way it’s done) in how to attract/divert attack. You are far from being sheltered and sensitive types. But the thing is, you and your ilk want to make a world to your own ends and will take any opportunity to do that – AGW being just one. You want to ruin the very democracies that give you the opportunity and freedom to express the views that you would curtail – like your champion, Hansen. You want to take trillions from the people to furnish your utopia. Shame. Not for us, but for you. It will not happen. The people here know your guile and know your ways.

    Please, be fruitful and multiply.

  185. john brookes said..
    Thanks for that Peter H. I try to provoke a little, and it is fun to see just how much abuse comes back. The level of self righteous anger is amazing at times.

    Matched nay trounced by the arrogance,self righteous believe that the science is settled and climate scientist know all the answers,feedbacks etc.
    As for spicing up this site,i suspect you be leaving here with your balls in a sling
    NO made up data here,contributers do their work here.

  186. I’m pretty sure that trolls like you two have been well trained (and I’ve seen the way it’s done) in how to attract/divert attack.

    Have you? Crikey!

    Well, I doubt anything I can say (such as the truth that, no, I haven’t been trained by anyone, ever, how to attract/divert attention) will convince me of my innocence in that regard.

  187. Damn! They’ve found out about the secret troll training school!

    The level of abuse from Snotrocket is a bit over the top. Its almost as though you don’t want alternative points of view on this site. I might go back to Jo Nova where they are more civil.

  188. I am new to this site.
    I am a “denier” of sorts (no scientific background and minimal intelligence) but I do beleive that if you denegrade “believers” such as Hansen, Mann etc instead of sticking to the science then you/we will lose this crazy battle.
    Logic should prevail. Emotional reponses such as I have read here only so doubt in the laymsns mind.

    [Odd. We actually have very few”deniers” here. Robt]

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