Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I love thought experiments. They allow us to understand complex systems that don’t fit into the laboratory. They have been an invaluable tool in the scientific inventory for centuries.
Here’s my thought experiment for today. Imagine a room. In any room dirt collects, as you might imagine. In my household I’m somewhat responsible for keeping the dirt down, so I get out the vacuum cleaner to clean up.
But suppose I had a magic way to handle that dirt. Suppose there was a class of beings such that whenever there was a concentration of dirt in some small part of the room, one of these beings would pop into existence, clean up the dirt, and then disappear. We’ll say this being is a rare relative of the Tasmanian Devil, call it a “Tasmanian Dirt Devil” (TDD).
Figure 1. One of the few authenticated photos of the elusive Tasmanian Dirt Devil (TDD) cleaning a floor in its natural habitat. PHOTO SOURCE: Annals of Cryptozoology, Vol. 6, 1954
After observing the room for a while, we realize that the TDD only appears when there is some small area of the floor with more than a certain concentration of dirt. However, we see that the TDD does not limit itself to that small concentration of dirt. It moves around and cleans out any other smaller concentrations of dirt around it as well. Once the area is cleaned to a certain level, the TDD vanishes, leaving the room somewhat cleaner. We also see that on days when traffic is heavy, often there are a number of Tasmanian Dirt Devils working on the room at once. No single TDD cleans the whole floor, but the floor is never dirty anywhere for long.
Now, here’s the question for our thought experiment: can we use a computer to model the effect of the TDDs, for example in order to calculate the rate at which dirt is being added to the floor, based on the average amount of dirt on the floor?
I say we cannot model it adequately if our only input to the model is the average level of dirt on the floor. Here are two circumstances to explain part of why the problem is ugly.
1. Someone spills a very small bit of dirt on one corner of the floor. Because the dirt is concentrated in one area, a TDD materializes, cleans up the dirt and the surrounding area, and vanishes.
2. Four people simultaneously spill a very small bit of dirt in all four corners of the floor. Four TDDs materialize, clean up the dirt and the surrounding areas, and vanish.
If all we have is the average dirtiness of the floor, a few bits of dirt which are rapidly cleaned up will make little difference in a daily average of floor conditions. Despite those small fluctuations, in one case there is four times as much dirt being added to the system as in the other case.
So I think we can agree that in our thought experiment, the average dirt level of the floor is not linearly related to the amount of dirt being added to the system. If we want to model what’s going on, it is very difficult to do it based on the average dirt level. We need much more detailed information in both time and space.
Here’s an illustration of a different problem. Again, two conditions.
1. Someone spills a very small bit of dirt on one corner of the floor. Because the dirt is concentrated in one area, a TDD materializes, cleans up the dirt and the surrounding area, and vanishes. Average dirt level on the floor ends up slightly below where it started.
2. Someone spills a very small bit of dirt evenly all over the floor. There is no concentration of dirt above the threshold level, so no TTD appears. The average dirt level on the floor ends up slightly above where it started.
Again, as you can see, average dirt levels and amount of dirt added show no correlation, even as to sign.
So what do Tasmanian Dirt Devils have to do with the climate? If we saw something like a TDD in our kitchens, we’d be amazed. However, something just as amazing exists in the climate. We’re not astounded by it all purely because are so familiar with it. However, let me take a small digression on the way to explaining the relationship between climate and Tasmanian Dirt Devils.
Emergent phenomena are a special class of things. They can be recognized by certain traits that they have in common. In general, emergent phenomena arise spontaneously at a certain time and place. Typically they exist for a definite duration and eventually dissipate at another time and place. Their appearance is often associated with some natural variable exceeding a threshold. Many times they involve a change of state of a variable (e.g. condensation of water vapor). Often they can move about somewhat independently. If so, although they have general tendencies, their specific movements are usually very difficult to predict.
One clear characteristic of emergent phenomena is that the properties of emergent phenomena are not apparent in the underlying stratum from which they arise.
Examples of natural emergent phenomena with which we are familiar include sand dunes, the behavior of flocks of birds, vortexes of all kinds, termite mounds, consciousness, and indeed, life itself.
Regarding climate, there is one particularly important class of natural emergent phenomena. These are the natural “heat engines”. Heat engines are able to turn heat into work. Examples of these natural emergent heat engines include hurricanes, thunderstorms, dust devils, tornadoes, and the Hadley Circulation itself.
The most common and most important of these heat engines are thunderstorms. Thunderstorms do two kinds of mechanical work. First, they power the deep tropical convection that is the driving force for the circulation of the entire ocean and atmosphere.
Second, thunderstorms drive what can be thought of as a sophisticated air conditioner, using a variation of the standard refrigeration method. This method, used in your home air conditioner, uses ambient heat to evaporate a liquid. This removes the heat from the area where the evaporation is taking place.
Then you move the evaporated liquid (and the latent heat it contains) to another location. In the new location, you condense the liquid, releasing the latent heat of condensation. The heat is then transferred to the surroundings, and the condensed liquid is returned to start the cycle over.
In the natural Hadley air conditioner that we call a thunderstorm, the same process takes place. Water is evaporated at the surface, cooling the surface. The water vapor rises to the clouds. There it is condensed. The latent heat it contains is released, rises, and is radiated out to space.
Meanwhile, in addition to losing latent heat through evaporation, the surface is further cooled by the fall of cold rain from the thunderstorm. This is accompanied by an entrained cold wind, which assists in the cooling.
In both cases (Hadley circulation and refrigeration) the net effect of a thunderstorm is to remove energy from the surface and move it up into the troposphere.
Having digressed, I return to what climate has to do with Tasmanian Dirt Devils.
Consider our thought experiment. If you replace TDDs with thunderstorms, replace the room with a climate model gridcell of the tropical ocean, and replace dirt with energy, you have an excellent description of the action of the climate system at the hot end of the climate heat engine, the Tropics.
Whenever there is a “hot spot” on the tropical ocean or land, if it is hot enough, a thunderstorm springs up and starts pushing huge amounts of energy vertically. As the thunderstorm moves across the surface, it moves towards the warmest area in its path. This preferentially cools the warmest areas. In addition, it continues to do so until the local surface temperature is a few degrees below the initiation temperature.
There are some conclusions that we can draw from this thought experiment:
1. In our thought experiment, increasing the rate at which dirt is added does not commensurately increase the average dirtiness of the floor. Similarly, increasing the rate at which energy is added to the Tropics does not commensurately increase the surface temperature.
2. Attempting to model our thought experiment using room-wide averages won’t work because Tasmanian Dirt Devils are driven by local conditions, not average conditions. Similarly, attempting to model our climate using gridcell-based averages won’t work because thunderstorms are driven by local conditions, not average conditions.
3. Modeling a system that contains simple linear feedback is not too difficult. In that case, average changes in the response variable are linearly related to changes in the forcings. Modeling a system with an active governor, like TDDs or thunderstorms, requires a much different type of model. As I showed above, in that case the response variable is not linearly related to the forcing.
4. Thunderstorms preferentially cool the warmest areas. Although the average temperatures might be the same, this has a different effect than a gridcell-wide uniform cooling. Again, this makes the modeling of the system more complex.
Let me be clear about what I am saying about models. I’m not saying that we can’t model the climate. I think we can, although it won’t be easy. But we have to model it the way it really is.
It is not a system with a linear relationship between forcing and temperature as conventional theory claims. It is a dynamic governed system with a complex, nuanced, non-linear response to forcing. Yes, we can model that. But as I show above, we can’t do it under the assumptions made by the climate models.
Could we model it parametrically, without having to model individual thunderstorms? Perhaps … but the model has to be designed to do that. And the current climate models either are not designed to do it or are not doing it successfully.
How do I know that they are not doing it successfully? Drift. Consider the room with the Tasmanian Dirt Devils. If there is no change in the amount of dirt being added per day, the system will rapidly take up a steady-state condition.
The models are subjected to a very similar test. In this test, called a “control run”, every one of the forcings of the model is held exactly steady. Then the models are run for a number of model years. Figure 2 shows the results from the Coupled Model Intercomparison Project (CMIP) control runs. We would expect the models to rapidly take up a steady-state condition.
Figure 2. Results of control runs for 16 coupled atmosphere-ocean climate models. SOURCE
Notice the drift in the surface air temperature in a number of runs over the 80-year simulation. The CERFACS model is the worst, but even a mainstream model like the NASA GISS model of James Hansen and Gavin Schmidt shows drift over the 80 years.
How much drift? Well, the trend in the NASA GISS model control run is a warming of about 0.7°C per century. This is about the same as the IPCC estimate of the warming over the last century, which is 0.6°C.
Now, you could look at that GISS model 0.7°C per century inherent warming drift with no forcing change as a bug. I prefer to think of it as a feature. After all, it lets Hansen and Schmidt simulate the warming of the 20th century without the slightest change in the forcings at all, and how many models can do that?
However, that drift does strongly suggest that they are not modeling the climate correctly …
As always, the quest for understanding continues. My best regards to all,
w.


WOW!
Paul Birch says:
December 14, 2010 at 6:52 am
Paul, I make a sincere attempt to answer honest scientific questions. Sometimes I don’t answer because I don’t see them. Sometimes I’m tired of repeating myself.
And sometimes I get tired of people who repeat the same point over and over, and want to call me a coward in the bargain …
For example, I said that if an input of x give you a response of +1 sometimes and -1 other times, that’s not linear. Linear is something of the form of
y = m * x + b
Your response was
We have already established that we don’t know the distribution of the added dirt. That’s the meaning of a gridcell average. You can’t figure out the distribution. I said that at the start. I repeated that at the middle. I said that again at the end.
But here you still are, after all of that repetition, going on about how it is linear if we know the distribution. Maybe it is, maybe not, but that is MEANINGLESS in our situation because we don’t know the distribution. As I have said. Over and over. And over again.
So no, Paul, I’m not going to go on trying to convince you. It’s not cowardice that makes me do that. It is exasperation and frustration. Like they say, you can lead a snake to school, but it’s a bitch to make one sit up and take notes. Please apply elsewhere for your further education, you’ve proven here that you don’t listen to anything I say, and want to be unpleasant in the bargain. Once again you have made vague allegations of what I am supposed to have done to someone, sometime, somewhere … don’t you get tired of polluting the air like that?
Look, Paul, I’m just another fool trying to hack my way through a blizzard of mostly execrable science and tinkertoy models. I’m sorry if the way that I’m doing it doesn’t meet your standards. If you want it done better, I encourage you to start your own blog.
But that does not entitle you to accuse me of bad faith in the bargain. I’m doing my honest best in this deal, and I find your recurring accusations unwarranted, unpleasant, and as I said before, very revealing about your point of view in all of this. It doesn’t paint a very flattering picture of you, I’m afraid.
Yes, as someone else said, “party pooper. ” I need to turn off the computer and go clean house, Christmas is coming. Sure wish those TDD’s were for real.
Willis
I’m immensely enjoying your thought experiments. Simple, to the point, and highly rational. I becoming a real fan.
To today’s subject, I don’t see Paul’s argument. To the point — I believe Paul makes his “dust devil” algorithm too complicated. At a simplistic level, the “devil” needs to know only three things: 1) see dirt, 2) my turn, and 3) done. The devil does not need to “know” much more and the algorithm be not more complicated than necessary to fulfill those requirements.
When one extends your logic to the proposed Hadley Cycle “heat engine”; an individual “dust devil” clearly become’s a random sequence of metrological events that produce a thunderstorm. The actual sequence of events required are nicely outlined by “hotrod (Larry L” @ur momisugly December 14, 2010, at 12:01 am and later just above. I see no conflict exists with your chaotically created thunderstorms generally appearing in particular latitude band; simply because the confluence of events necessary for thunderstorm creation are simply more likely to occur in that area. In this case:
The random events leading to thunderstorm formation = See Dirt & My Turn
Depleting the available energy able to sustain formation = Done
In my view, Paul is trying to establish excessive “order” — where none exists or needs to exist.
Well done, Kforestcat
P.S. Paul Birch: where you wrote to Willis stating “you seem to respond enough to the ignoramuses who don’t understand basic physics”. You remind me of a particularly anti-social Phd in my employee. I didn’t fire the lad and counseled temperament; because, I knew his peers would run him off if he didn’t learn to respect even our lowliest janitor. Even a casual observation of the comments on this site show the “average” commenter has a better than average knowledge of physics, engineering, statistics, and/or meteorology. A typical respond on purely “technical” subjects tends to bear this out. Incidentally; I have a chemical engineering degree, 25 plus years of professional experience, I am paid a six figure salary, and I routinely advise executives on how to spend $5-7 billion in process equipment, fuel, and supplies. Never-the-less there are times on this blog when I know I’m out-smarted, out-gunned, and out-classed. Part of my success has been in knowing when to shut-up and listen to a broad category of specialist and opinions. Courtesy, mutual respect, and good manners are everything. Highly recommend you keep that in mind.
Paul Birch,
As one who was right there beside you arguing against Willis’ metal shell and it’s radiative effects, I can honestly advise you that you (we) were wrong. And, not just a little wrong… big time foolishly wrong.
Just as Kforestcat above states, I too have an advanced degree (Medical Physics), and quite successful in my field, and am considered well educated by my peers. And, I too am made to look foolish sometimes when I venture into a somewhat related field that I am not so comfortable with.
As to the current topic, Willis’ analogy holds up under scrutiny, and your arguments do not actually contradict anything in his thought experiment.
For example, Willis never that the distribution of the added dirt was known. In fact, he makes it clear that its not known. He clearly seems to be arguing that this corresponds to climate models and their grid averaging methodology. If you disagree with that analogy, then you would be better off showing that climate models do not bin that way. I suspect, however, that Willis is correct, and that they do bin that way. And if they do, then he is also correct that they ignore the non-linear nature of the essential problem.
You also state:
**************************************************************************
Willis: “Let me be clear about what I am saying about models. I’m not saying that we can’t model the climate. I think we can, although it won’t be easy. But we have to model it the way it really is.”
Paul: “No, we really don’t. We can empirically or analytically model those parts of the system and those mathematical relationships that interest us, without bothering with all the complexities that we’re not interested in, or don’t know much about, or can’t predict.”
*************************************************************************
(sorry… dont know how to add quotes)…
Well Paul, if you can, you and the entire climate change industry haven’t done it yet… or at least not very well. In case you haven’t been paying attention, the climate models suck.
As far as Willis being a cowardly poster… I would argue just the opposite. It takes real courage and patience to deal with people that are stubbornly wrong… and to do so with grace and courtesy. I for one, thank Willis for those qualities. If he didn’t exhibit them, I would not have followed through with his offered knowledge, and I would have missed out on an opportunity to educate myself. Thanks Willis.
David Socrates.
“Sensible skeptics start from the twin observations that:
(1) Contrary to uninformed doom mongering over the past 30 years, at only 0.5degC or so per century the Earth’s temperature is steadfastly failing to rise in correspondence with the sharp (~30%) post-WW2 upturn in anthropogenic GHGs.”
1. There is nothing in the theory that predicts a monotonic increase in temp, or an immediate increase. The effect is
A. sometimes masked by short term negative forcings
B. lagged to the input.
For example, if you are steering a jetski and you apply a forcing at the tail you will
see an immediate response. As in a sharp turn to the left. Even if the current is going the other way, even if the wind is going oppoiste to your control input. The time constant is short. apply forcing, see reactio. If you are steering an oil tanker you apply the forcing and you may not see any response for a while. Think inertia. But eventually that forcing will turn the boat. The post war 30% increase is nothing:
1. the response is a log response
2. the response has to overcome thermal inertia
3. the effect needs to be large enough to rise above background noise ( like shot noise from a volcano) and long term (15-30 year) oceanic cycles.
Now double the C02 and you’d see an effect of 1-3C at equillbrium. takes decades.
Anton Eagle says:
December 14, 2010 at 7:48 pm
Dear friends, I hold this gentleman up as an inspiration. He is a true scientist, and an honest man. Well done, sir, I doff my hat to you.
Anton eagle shows courage, the kind of courage most of us have trouble summoning.
steven mosher says:
December 14, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Steve I always read your posts with interest and often learn something from them.
But I’m afraid my “reason centre/BS detector” just won’t accept the “takes decades” claim.
Just because an analogy sounds good, doesn’t mean it applies to the intended target.
Radiation happens at the speed of light. How is it that a molecule of CO2, just released into the atmosphere, doesn’t take part in the absorption/emission game for decades?
I don’t wish to sound like a smart a$$ but do these molecules wait in the sidelines?
p.s. Hop on a jet ski the size of an oil tanker and see how sharp you can turn. I would have thought it’s the ratio of force to size. tankers are not designed to turn sharp.
anna v says:
December 14, 2010 at 7:42 am
Paul Birch says: For example, thunderstorms are driven by a temperature difference between surface and stratosphere, not the absolute temperature; and there is evidently a variable latitude, or range of latitudes, by which the tropical mechanism ceases to operate.
“I want real data. But the quote from your post above has a contradiction in real data evaluation.
You say that thunderstorms are driven by temperature differences, not absolute temperatures.
And then “there is a range of latitudes by which the tropical mechanism ceases to operate” !!!
Higher latitudes mean lower SST s , i.e. absolute temperatures because of lower energy inputs from the sun.
Real data contradicts you.”
No, it doesn’t. One can only have a tropical thunderstorm if there is a sufficient temperature difference between surface and stratosphere and a high enough absolute humidity. If the overall temperature is too low, or the air too dry, you don’t get them. If the temperature is high, but there is insufficient temperature difference to drive them, you don’t get them. At higher latitudes, the temperature difference is too small. The absolute temperature helps determine the strength of the effect, but it is the temperature difference that the “governor” is regulating.
Vince Causey says:
December 14, 2010 at 8:26 am
Paul Birch wrote: We can empirically or analytically model those parts of the system and those mathematical relationships that interest us, without bothering with all the complexities that we’re not interested in, or don’t know much about, or can’t predict.
“This doesn’t make much sense to me. If you are saying we can model only those parts that interest us or we understand, then what we are doing is modeling a subset of a system. But I thought the idea is to model the climate as a whole – in other words, to predict the global averaged temperature at some future date. ”
Yes, but that is a subset of the system. We can have a viable model that predicts global climate (average temperature, rainfall, etc.) without necessarily being able to predict or understand local weather. Or vice versa. The idea that a model is no good unless it includes everything is misguided. It’s all too easy to go into such detail that you can’t see the wood for the trees. (I’m not claiming that the global circulation models currently employed are good models – they’re not – but the mere fact that eg., they don’t explicitly include tropical thunderstorms, does not in itself make them inadequate or invalid).
Robbo says:
December 14, 2010 at 9:03 am
@ur momisugly Paul Birch However, my point was that this does not tell you whether or not you have net positive or negative feedback.
“Err, no. Net positive feedback means that temperature is unbounded.”
No, it really doesn’t. It means that temperatures vary more than they would have done in the absence of the feedback, that’s all. The inverted bowl is not a example of normal positive feedback, but of instability. One can have a stable system with either positive or negative feedback; and one can have an unstable system with either positive or negative feedback.
JJB MKI says:
December 14, 2010 at 9:14 am
Please see my reply above on: December 15, 2010 at 1:46 am
“It seems to me you are determined to set up a straw man in implying that Willis is arguing that because it is impossible to model a certain climatic system with any useful accuracy given the crudity of current models, it is impossible to construct any kind of model. ”
Quite the opposite. I am saying that you can get useful models without having to understand the underlying mechanisms. Indeed, for many purposes, an empirical model, by virtue of its simplicity, may well be superior to more sophisticated ones. Willis seems to be trying to argue that if the model doesn’t explicitly include regulation by tropical thunderstorms, etc., it’s no good. And that simply doesn’t follow. Whether or not deliberately including such thunderstorms would improve the predictive power of a global temperature model is an open question.
Steve says:
December 14, 2010 at 10:19 am
“But if all you know are averages (the average depth of dirt on the floor now, and the average deposit of dirt coming in the future) you will not know where TDD’s will appear, so you cannot model the future “dirt climate”.”
This does not follow. It is not necessary to know such details to be able to create an empirical model with predictive power. If you can plot the overall amount of dirt against the amount of dirt being added, then find a correlation between the two, then you have a working model. Even if the dust devils themselves are a complete mystery to you.
“Depending on how the dirt falls, future dirt could go up or down. There is no simple linear relationship between average dirt deposit and future average dirt level. You could certainly create a model, and over time it may give you average predictions that match average results! But for the particular result of any point in time, odds are high that the model will be wrong.”
But it’s the average results that you want! The “climate”, not the “weather”.
“(Willis) We get the same result if we add three units of dirt and three TDDs clean it up, or if we add one unit of dirt and one TDD cleans it up….(Paul) Not in general. A similar result, very probably. But exactly the same? Almost certainly not.
“Now that’s just damn funny. Willis creates a thought experiment with a fantasy creature called a Tasmanian Dirt Devil, and you tell him that he doesn’t get to say how his fantasy creation works! If the inventor of the thought experiment states that his creations follow a specific algorithm, guess what – you have to follow the thought experiment according to that algorithm!”
Fair enough, except that he didn’t specify the algorithm. He gave a general description only; and my point is that, in general, under Willis’s own description, the two cases will not give exactly the same result. He would have considerable difficulty finding an algorithm that would do so.
Willis Eschenbach says:
December 14, 2010 at 6:14 pm
“Paul, I make a sincere attempt to answer honest scientific questions. Sometimes I don’t answer because I don’t see them. Sometimes I’m tired of repeating myself.”
Then kindly answer the questions and points I have raised in response to your previous posts, which at the time you discourteously ignored. The excuse of repeating yourself won’t wash. No one in those threads had raised those points previously.
“We have already established that we don’t know the distribution of the added dirt. That’s the meaning of a gridcell average. You can’t figure out the distribution. I said that at the start. I repeated that at the middle. I said that again at the end.
But here you still are, after all of that repetition, going on about how it is linear if we know the distribution.”
I said, correctly, “If adding dirt in a particular distribution increases or decreases the overall amount of dirt in approximate proportion to the added amount – or even leaves it the same – that is a linear relationship”. I said nothing about knowing what that distribution is. It doesn’t matter what the distribution actually is, so long as the deposition mechanism stays sensibly similar over the period of interest.
“I’m doing my honest best in this deal, and I find your recurring accusations unwarranted, unpleasant, and as I said before, very revealing about your point of view in all of this. ”
My point of view about you is unfortunately based upon hard experience of how you have behaved to me (and others) in the past (I gave you a specific example), and how you are still behaving now. You are deliberately refusing even to address the specific points that I raised above, and which, despite your protestations, you have never answered at all. The one point you did address, you misread or misunderstood, then used that misunderstanding as an excuse for ignoring the rest.
Kforestcat says:
December 14, 2010 at 7:06 pm
“To today’s subject, I don’t see Paul’s argument. To the point — I believe Paul makes his “dust devil” algorithm too complicated. At a simplistic level, the “devil” needs to know only three things: 1) see dirt, 2) my turn, and 3) done. The devil does not need to “know” much more and the algorithm be not more complicated than necessary to fulfill those requirements. ”
My argument does not depend on what the algorithm is. I am saying that in general you can model the system empirically and find simple linear relationships in the correlation between overall dirt levels and rates without knowing anything about the dust devils or their algorithms. This is what Willis seems to be denying.
“Courtesy, mutual respect, and good manners are everything. Highly recommend you keep that in mind.”
I’m afraid that Willis has behaved discourteously to me from my earliest posts on this site, so you should not be surprised that I dislike him and am not inclined to show him much respect.
My point about “ignoramuses” was not meant to insult any commenters (I meant that that seemed to be Willis’s opinion of them, though perhaps I could have phrased it better!), but rather to indicate how very possible it is to give the misleading appearance of being open to criticism by cherry-picking only those points you think you can easily answer, and skipping over the ones you can’t.
Anton Eagle says:
December 14, 2010 at 7:48 pm
“As one who was right there beside you arguing against Willis’ metal shell and it’s radiative effects, I can honestly advise you that you (we) were wrong. And, not just a little wrong… big time foolishly wrong.”
The arguments you were making were not the same as mine, by a long chalk. Willis did not address mine at all, which demonstrated that even a single shell can, in principle, generate an arbitrarily high degree of greenhouse warming.
“For example, Willis never [said] that the distribution of the added dirt was known. ”
Nor did I.
“Well Paul, if you can, you and the entire climate change industry haven’t done it yet… or at least not very well. In case you haven’t been paying attention, the climate models suck.”
I don’t entirely disagree. But the reason is that the “climate industry” models are not empirically derived but are ideology driven. There are (or used to be) genuine climatalogical models – but since what they predict is no significant change beyond natural fluctuations, the industry won’t use them.
“As far as Willis being a cowardly poster… I would argue just the opposite. It takes real courage and patience to deal with people that are stubbornly wrong… and to do so with grace and courtesy. ”
Sorry, I disagree. It does not take courage to argue against people who (you think) are “stubbornly wrong”. It takes courage honestly to consider and evaluate cogent criticisms that genuinely threaten your theories.
@Paul Birch
Many thanks for your reply, and my apologies if my post came across as somewhat snarky- I was under the impression you were labelling commenters here as ‘ignoramuses’.
Could you elaborate on why, in your opinion, the global circulation models currently employed are not good?
Thanks, J Burns
steven mosher says:
Now double the C02 and you’d see an effect of 1-3C at equillbrium. takes decades.
————–
Why?
The Earth responds every day to the loss of forcing from the Sun. The effect can even be quite pronounced under a cloud. Or in an eclipse.
http://eclipse99.nasa.gov/pages/faq.html
The main effect is in the ‘radiant heating’ component which goes away suddenly at the moment of eclipse and produces a very fast temperature decrease.
And then, returns to normal following the eclipse. What possible explanation is there for a molecule of CO2 not interacting with such a fast responding system for decades?
What Dave F said.
Baa Humbug;
Sorry to say that your bit about turning tankers is not right – they take a long time to slow down in a straight line, but to stop in a hurry all you do (if you have the space to the side) is put the rudder hard over, and by the time you have gone round 360 degrees you will be just about stopped.
For 22 years I was a ship pilot.
Dave F says:
December 15, 2010 at 9:48 am
” (Steve Mosher) Now double the C02 and you’d see an effect of 1-3C at equillbrium. takes decades…. (Dave) Why? What possible explanation is there for a molecule of CO2 not interacting with such a fast responding system for decades?”
Steve’s key phrase is “at equilibrium”. The climate would indeed react instantaneously to an instantaneous doubling of atmospheric CO2 content. But that instantaneous reaction would not give you the mean increase in temperature that you would see after the sum total of all climate feedbacks that (according to Steve) would take decades to play out. The instantaneous change does not equal the change at equilibrium.
Do you think that someone could take the instantaneous change in temperature based on a 10 minute eclipse of the sun and extrapolate it to a new global mean temperature if that eclipse were to last 100 years? How long into that 100 year eclipse would it be before the new equilibrium point is reached?
Paul Birch says:
December 15, 2010 at 2:21 am
“It is not necessary to know such details to be able to create an empirical model with predictive power. If you can plot the overall amount of dirt against the amount of dirt being added, then find a correlation between the two, then you have a working model. Even if the dust devils themselves are a complete mystery to you.”
Well that’s the whole point – you won’t find a statistically sound correlation between the two! Finding the correlation requires knowing the details, not the averages.
But I agree that you can create a model. Even the wildest random process can be modeled. The question is – how useful is the model? What will your margin of error be for your prediction of overall floor dirt level at any point in time? We know the minimum and maximum dirt levels for the floor: minimum is zero, maximum is the level that summons a TDD. The average dirt level at any point in time will fall between those two extremes. I could say that the average dirt level is exactly halfway between those two extremes with a margin of error of +/- 100%. BLAM – a 100% accurate model that is 0% useful.
So I agree that you can create an empirical model, but I do not agree that it will have any predictive power, with power being the key word.
Steve says:
How long into that 100 year eclipse would it be before the new equilibrium point is reached?
How many licks does it take to get to the center of absolute zero? 🙂
I would think that it wouldn’t take a long time for Earth to lose the energy it holds. Still, the Earth fluctuates wildly every day between receiving, using round figures, about 1000 W/M^2 and practically nothing at night. Why would the comparatively small additional forcing cause the train to come off of the tracks wrt equilibrium?
Paul Birch doesn’t understand what “empirical” means in this thread. Birch opines:
“It is not necessary to know such details to be able to create an empirical model with predictive power.”
There is empirical data, and there are models. The first is evidence, the second is not.
Since Birch doesn’t understand those basic details, it’s surprising that Willis even bothers to try and explain anything to him.