UPDATE2: 12/2/2010 10:15AM PST, NYT reports on this a full hour before the NASA news conference at 2PM EST (11AMPST) that it is in fact about arsenic microbes. – Anthony
UPDATE: It may not be so profound as I conjectured below after all. Our always sharp WUWT readers point me to articles in the Daily Mail (and also Telegraph blogs) which say it is more terrestrial in nature than extraterrestrial.
Nasa scientists are set to announce that bacteria have been discovered that can survive in arsenic, an element previously thought too toxic to support life, it can be revealed.
In a press conference scheduled for tomorrow evening, researchers will unveil the discovery of the incredible microbe – which substitutes arsenic for phosphorus to sustain its growth – in a lake in California.
The remarkable discovery raises the prospect that life could exist on other planets which do not have phosphorus in the atmosphere, which had previously been thought vital for life to begin.
But it seems like old news, as this paper from 2004 talks about microbes using Arsenic in Mono Lake: The microbial arsenic cycle in Mono Lake, California
There is also this earlier story from The Times, from May 2010 asking: Do alien life forms exist in a Californian lake? The scientist, Felisa Wolfe-Simon, quoted in that article, is also on the NASA press panel tomorrow. If they are indeed announcing arsenic microbes in Mono Lake, it sure seems like they waited a long time to do it, and the press release wording invites a lot of speculation.
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From NASA’s press release here there’s been a lot of buzz and speculation around the blogosphere on what may be announced tomorrow.
It may be mundane, such as they’ve found some building block of life in some comet or asteroid sampling mission, or they may have found evidence of life somewhere. I doubt it will be anything higher than microbe level if they do. Still, that would be fantastic news in itself. But after looking at the publications in the CV of one of the participants, James Elser of Arizona State University and his work in desert environments, plus Pam Conrad, co-author of a papers on Death Valley geology and how it pertains to Life signatures on Mars, I’m going to make a SWAG and offer that the press conference may have something to say about discovering the ingredients of and/or byproducts of life on Mars, via some samples from Mars rovers Spirit and Opportunity. It is one possibility.
The other SWAG possibility I see is some discovery from the Cassini mission and Titan, Saturns’ largest moon, which has a chemical soup “smog”. Earlier this year on June 3rd, NASA made a press release titled:
What is Consuming Hydrogen and Acetylene on Titan?
Here’s the money quote:
“We suggested hydrogen consumption because it’s the obvious gas for life to consume on Titan, similar to the way we consume oxygen on Earth,” McKay said. “If these signs do turn out to be a sign of life, it would be doubly exciting because it would represent a second form of life independent from water-based life on Earth.”
But then there’s this:
“Scientific conservatism suggests that a biological explanation should be the last choice after all non-biological explanations are addressed,” Allen said. “We have a lot of work to do to rule out possible non-biological explanations. It is more likely that a chemical process, without biology, can explain these results – for example, reactions involving mineral catalysts.”
I suppose if deep sea hydrothermal vents can support chemosynthetic bacteria using hydrogen sulfide for food, why not hydrogen and acetylene?
Of the two possibilities I cite, I’m thinking some announcement about Cassini and Titan has a higher probability. Maybe it will be somethings as simple as “we see signs of life on Titan, but we need more money to find out”.
We’ll find out in about 24 hours.
NASA Sets News Conference on Astrobiology Discovery; Science Journal Has Embargoed Details Until 2 p.m. EST On Dec. 2
WASHINGTON — NASA will hold a news conference at 2 p.m. EST on Thursday, Dec. 2, to discuss an astrobiology finding that will impact the search for evidence of extraterrestrial life. Astrobiology is the study of the origin, evolution, distribution and future of life in the universe.
The news conference will be held at the NASA Headquarters auditorium at 300 E St. SW, in Washington. It will be broadcast live on NASA Television and streamed on the agency’s website at http://www.nasa.gov.
Participants are:
– Mary Voytek, director, Astrobiology Program, NASA Headquarters, Washington
– Felisa Wolfe-Simon, NASA astrobiology research fellow, U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park, Calif.
– Pamela Conrad, astrobiologist, NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.
– Steven Benner, distinguished fellow, Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution, Gainesville, Fla.
– James Elser, professor, Arizona State University, Tempe
Media representatives may attend the conference or ask questions by phone or from participating NASA locations. To obtain dial-in information, journalists must send their name, affiliation and telephone number to Steve Cole at stephen.e.cole@nasa.gov or call 202-358-0918 by noon Dec. 2.
For NASA TV streaming video and downlink information, visit:
For more information about NASA astrobiology activities, visit:
– end –
UPDATE: It may not be so profound as I conjectured below after all. . .
Hey, conjecturing is half the fun! As long as I don’t have to pay for it, it could be ALL the fun.
“WUWT announces aliens living in California!” 😉
I’m interested but not too excited. If they had discovered alien life, would they put off the announcement or would it be a breaking story on all the news channels?
Okay, while I was writing, others piped in about arsenic as a building block of some life forms. So, in other words, they found out something that contradicts “everything they thought they knew about the topic at hand.”
And once again, the “we know everything about everything already, so STFU” position of science – or rather, Science – is blind-sided by the real world.
I will (literally) file this in my Science Does It Again folder.
They do this 5 to 20 times a year. After a while, how do we keep on believing them when they tell us they know everything about any topic? You know, there are Michael Manns and Phil Joneses in ALL the sciences. People here still seem to have an adoring and worshipful POV toward scientists other than climatologists. I’ve been around enough other science enough to know the Mann-Jones attitude is pervasive in science. The idea of the honest inquirer got left at the starting gate, way back with The Royal Society. They had no sooner set down their Scientific Method than they were accepting violations of it. The seemingly always grumpy and intransigent – but very principled – Robert Hookes was livid about that.
Remember, to think that arsenic is not compatible with life is only a speculation about the totality. Punctuated evolution was a small bow to the reality that says, “No matter how much you have learned (and you may have learned that well), Mother Nature will knock you off your pedestal sooner or later.”
There truly are “…more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
And we are all Horatio.
El Gordo –
Great catch, Dude!
Another for my Science Does It Again folder…
Is the bacteria going to get free healthcare?
Andrew
“Scientific conservatism suggests that a biological explanation should be the last choice after all non-biological explanations are addressed,”
I wish such sensible scientific conservatism was still applied to the planet we live on.
….Curiousgeorge says:
December 1, 2010 at 1:02 pm
I really hope it is irrefutable evidence of extraterrestrial life, even if it is only microbes. People have been expecting this for quite a while. One has to wonder what the social ramifications of it will be to the world view of any number of religions, etc…..
As a Catholic, I can’t see how it would affect my social world view in any way what-so-ever. I have always believed that God has created life throughout the entire universe.
[snip – sorry, no UFO links are welcome here ~mod]
OK, since we’re all rampantly speculating:
How about “we found traces of arsenic in the little bug spots in the Martian Meteorite so maybe they were bacteria like in California lakes!?”
FWIW, the notion that life must be carbon based and use oxygen is naive. At temperatures that are very high, or very low, other chemicals will have the needed activity and water, CO2, et.al. will either be hard rocks or corrosive vapors.
So I’d fully expect to find some OTHER chemicals that make a nice complex set of chains of “stuff” that can have active chemical sites in it when folded. Just at very high temps it might be something like silicon based while at very low it might be more like a nitrogen in ammonia system. On an outer planet / moon we can find things like methane lakes. So it’s the solvent. Then the question is just ‘what makes polymers’ at liquid methane temperatures. At higher temps we get lakes of things like lead and rocks. So maybe it’s going to be a silicon polymer that takes those temperatures. (And remember that at hydrothermal vents we have Carbon / Water life at oven temperatures, so you have to explore your chemistry at ultra high pressures too…)
The simple fact is that we don’t know nearly enough about what kinds of strange chemistry can happen with all possible mixes of elements at extreme pressures and temperatures. What we do know comes mostly from a limited number of experiments with modestly pure mixes of things.
So to think that we know the limits on what kinds of self replicating chemical reactions can occur and when they can become complex enough to be called ‘life’ is just hubris.
But my bet is that they are going to do “show and tell” on a terrestrial bug and then say this means alien life is far more likely (and please send more money for a new Mars probe as we found arsenic in some deposit somewhere…)
HR says:
December 1, 2010 at 2:21 pm
“WUWT announces aliens living in California!” 😉
—————————————–
Yep, they sure do, especially resident aliens like me.
This is really interesting. I see the Telegraph link is to another Tom Chivers piece. Whatever is being announced, his comment about a separate biogenesis of the organism is such garbage. Fortunately, he had the good sense to have someone correct him later in the article.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tomchivers/100049458/arsenic-life-forms-in-yosemite-evidence-of-alien-life-wait-and-see/
I’m guessing arsenic replacing phosphorus on phosphorylated proteins from this organism, but would be amazed if it could replace the phosphorus in DNA or RNA. I hope I’m amazed.
So, let’s forget Cancoon for while… Dont repare that more one COP is happening, and will be another fail. Forget it! The agenda must go ahead! Lights! Camera! Action!!!
“My God, it’s full of stars!”
“Phosphorus in the atmosphere”
Phosphorus compounds are too heavy to have a significant atmospheric lifetime. Earth is not a planet with atmospheric phosphorus, but Jupiter is… does that mean there is life on Jupiter?
I agree with Helen Hawkins again.
Religious people have considered extraterrestrial life since as far back as the writers of the Bible. It’s scientists who can’t seem to get a handle on it.
Andrew
So, let’s forget Cancoon for while… Dont repare that more one COP is happening, and will be another fail. Forget it! The agenda must go ahead! Lights! Camera! Action!!!
Oh… sorry
I forgot: change the scenario too!!!! Rapid!
I have often wondered why there is only carbon-based life on this planet, and why our scientists seem to be looking only for carbon life both terrestrially and extra-terrestrially. Why isn’t there any silicon based life, considering that silicon is such a common element? or any other element for that matter. This arsenic eating bacteria sure beats the lot, but it is still carbon based. it only replaces phosphorus with arsenic. Maybe one day Craig Venter would be able to create a synthetic life form not based on carbon, but on some other element.
Nah, they’ve done a dna swab on Jim Hansen and discovered he came from Venus.
Does NASA have any credibility left? Serious question.
So life exists in other parts of the universe. I want a second opinion … LOL
It could be that NASA has discovered that Plan 9 From Outer Space was actually a documentary.
Maybe someone’s research grant is expiring and they need a new one. Seems to me that is what happens. When someone needs a few million dollars in a hurry, they spend a couple thousand on a PR agency to generate a press release that gets media buzz. Now who could refuse their grant request after this has hit the paper?
I believe it is hype.
Well they are just a wee bit late on discovering bugs that live on Arsenic; well at least 55 years too late, because back when I was in High school taking a chemistry class, which actuallyt took place right in the chem lab, one of the students was playing around with a flask that was on the shelf full of chemicals, and it had a liquid in it with some moldy growth floating around on the surface.
The Chem teacher saw him messing with it, and went to investigate, and discovered that the flask was full of some Arsenic chemical solution; and those bugs were living it up on that stuff.
And if you don’t want to annoy some lady, then I suggest your don’t give her Arsenic !
[snip – more UFO stuff, take it elsewhere ~mod
I saw this issue and this lake discussed in a Discovery channel documentary hosted by Morgan Freeman called “Through the Wormhole – Episode “How did we get here”” – It talks about how this unusual microbe is able to use Arsenic rather than Phosphorus in its DNA and would indicate that DNA-RNA-type molecules could be made two different ways and/or using two different biological rules. Basically, all the DNA and RNA is based on the same architecture except for this microbe which can survive with Arsenic substitution.
I don’t think it is all that unusual that bacterial evolution would allow slightly different forms of DNA to be around but anyway …
Barry Day says:
December 1, 2010 at 2:48 pm
[snip – sorry, no UFO links are welcome here ~mod]
Wow,I never thought WUWT would be intolerant of any differing opinions stoop to NASA’s level of selective control,what a supprise.
We should always seek the truth where ever it takes us.
“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident.”
“The UFO appears more and more to
be one of the grimmest realities ever
confronted by the human race.
— From Gods of Eden”
[To disagree with site policies about UFO’s, one need only create/pay for a (different) site that agrees with your desired policies on UFO’s. 8<) Robt]