Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Dr. Judith Curry notes in a posting at her excellent blog Climate Etc. that there are folks out there that claim the poorly named planetary “greenhouse effect” doesn’t exist. And she is right, some folks do think that. I took a shot at explaining that the “greenhouse effect” is a real phenomenon, with my “Steel Greenhouse” post. I’d like to take another shot at clarifying how a planetary “greenhouse effect” works. This is another thought experiment.
Imagine a planet in space with no atmosphere. Surround it with a transparent shell a few kilometres above the surface, as shown in Figure 1.
Figure 1. An imaginary planet surrounded by a thin transparent shell a few kilometres above the surface (vertical scale exaggerated). The top of the transparent shell has been temporarily removed to clarify the physical layout. For our thought experiment, the transparent shell completely encloses the planet, with no holes. There is a vacuum both inside and outside the transparent shell.
To further the thought experiment, imagine that near the planet there is a sun, as bright and as distant from that planet as the Sun is from the Earth.
Next, we have a couple of simplifying assumptions. The first is that the surface areas of the planet and the shell (either the outside surface or the inside surface) are about equal. If the planet is the size of the earth and the transparent shell is say 1 kilometre above the surface, the difference in area is about a tenth of a percent. You can get the same answer by using the exact areas and watts rather than watts per square meter, but the difference is trivial. Assume that the shell is a meter above the surface, or a centimeter. The math is the same. So the simplification is warranted.
The second simplifying assumption is that the planet is a blackbody for longwave (infra-red or “greenhouse”) radiation. In fact the longwave emissivity/absorptivity of the Earth’s surface is generally over 0.95, so the assumption is fine for a first-order understanding. You can include the two factors yourselves if you wish, it makes little difference.
Let’s look at several possibilities using different kinds of shells. First, Fig. 2 shows a section through the planet with a perfectly transparent shell. This shell passes both long and shortwave radiation straight through without absorbing anything:
Figure 2. Section of a planet with a shell which is perfectly transparent to shortwave (solar) and longwave (“greenhouse”) radiation. Note that the distance from the shell to the planet is greatly exaggerated.
With the transparent shell, the planet is at -18°C. Since the shell is transparent and absorbs no energy at all, it is at the temperature of outer space (actually slightly above 0K, usually taken as 0K for ease of calculation). The planet absorbs 240 W/m2 and emits 240 W/m2. The shell emits and absorbs zero W/m2. Thus both the shell and the planet are in equilibrium, with the energy absorbed equal to the energy radiated.
Next, Figure 3 shows what happens when the shell is perfectly opaque to both short and longwave radiation. In this case all radiation is absorbed by the shell.
Figure 3. Planet with a shell which is perfectly opaque to shortwave (solar) and longwave (“greenhouse”) radiation.
The planet stays at the same temperature in Figs. 2 and 3. In Fig. 3, this is because the planet is heated by the radiation from the shell. With the opaque shell in Fig. 3, the shell takes up the same temperature as the planet. Again, energy balance is maintained, with both shell and planet showing 240 W/m2 in and out. The important thing to note here is that the shell radiates both outward and inward.
Finally, Fig. 4 shows the energy balance when the shell is transparent to shortwave (solar) and is opaque to longwave (“greenhouse”) radiation. This, of course, is what the Earth’s atmosphere does.
Here we see a curious thing. At equilibrium, the planetary temperature is much higher than before:
Figure 4. Planet with a shell that is transparent to shortwave (solar) radiation, but is opaque to longwave (“greenhouse”) radiation.
In the situation shown in Fig. 4, the sun directly warms the planet. In addition, the planet is warmed (just as in Fig. 3) by the radiation from the inner surface of the shell. As a result, the planetary surface ends up absorbing (and radiating) 480 W/m2. As a result the temperature of the surface of the planet is much higher than in the previous Figures.
Note that all parts of the system are still in equilibrium. The surface both receives and emits 480 W/m2. The shell receives and emits 240 W/m2. The entire planetary system also emits the amount that it receives. So the system is in balance.
And that’s it. That’s how the “greenhouse effect” works. It doesn’t require CO2. It doesn’t need an atmosphere. It works because a shell has two sides, and it radiates energy from both the inside and the outside.
The “greenhouse effect” does not violate any known laws of physics. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. All that happens is that a bit of the outgoing energy is returned to the surface of the planet. This leaves the surface warmer than it would be without that extra energy.
So yes, dear friends, the “greenhouse effect” is real, whether it is created by a transparent shell or an atmosphere.
And now, for those that have followed the story this far, a bonus question:
Why is the above diagram of a single-shell planetary “greenhouse” inadequate for explaining the climate system of the earth?
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Multiple concentric shells.
Variability of cloud cover thickness and distribution; atmospheric air flow from tropics to poles; transmission of internal core heat; there’s no “plastic shell” in reality
pettyfog says:
November 27, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Dude, take a deep breath. This is a thought experiment designed to show how a planetary “greenhouse” works, not an accurate drawing of said “greenhouse”. And as Figure 1 show, it is a global shell AROUND a globe. The later figures just show a small part of that larger system.
Vorlath says:
November 27, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Huh? Why not?
Sam Hall says:
November 27, 2010 at 12:51 pm
In all three of the diagrams, the amount of energy emitted by the earth is the same as the amount of the energy absorbed. Thus, the earth is not an energy source. It merely absorbs and then emits energy, it is not a source of energy.
The alititude of the effective radiating surface of the earth is a function of concentration. Below this altitude heat is transported mainly by convection/conduction. Above this altitude it is transported via radiation. Glass greenhouses don’t do this.
In response to my question, Why is the above diagram of a single-shell planetary “greenhouse” inadequate for explaining the climate system of the earth?, a number of answers have been proposed. These have all revolved around the idea that some part of the actual system has not been included, or not all details of some part have been included.
But that is always true of models. They are, after all, models and not the real thing. So there will always be parts left out, or parts that don’t contain all of the real world details. In general, people have been correct, many things are not considered by my simplified model.
But there is a much more fundamental reason why that model is inadequate to represent the Earth’s climate system in even the most simplified way … and no one has mentioned it yet.
clouds?
Willis Eschenbach says:
November 27, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Vorlath says:
November 27, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Your third graph doesn’t work if the shell is opaque.
Huh? Why not?
———————
Because if the shield is opaque to longwave, then the only way you can have longwave emitted from said shield is if it came from outer space. This would also mean that no longwave could escape from inside and your calculations are wrong. What your third graph is describing is something *like* a black hole with respect to shortwave radiation.
To fix it, you’d need something that allows half of the longwave radiation through.
Also, the planet acts as an energy source in all three graphs. Where’s that energy from?
am not so sure about the left hand up arrow in Fig 4 being at 480 W/m2… I would have thought 240 W/m2…
However, for the earth, it all depends on how opaque (or transparent) the atmosphere is… and we know cloud cover is variable… and the sun might encounter snow, ice, water, plants, sands, rocks etc on the surface of the earth… we also know that the heating effect of the sun is not instantaneous – it take times… as does the cooling in the evening… and then we have the other half of the day when the sun has gone to bed… and we know it gets cooler at night.
Now my thought experiment is more of a real experiment… I park my sedan in the middle of the car lot at my local Wall Mart in the early morning… and I sit in the car… as the sun comes up I get hotter… and by midday it is hotter in the car than it is outside the car… and by midnight it is older inside the car than it is outside… it might even be frosted over while the parking lot is frost free. Now being tired and hungry I go home.
So the next day I decide to change my experiment a little bit… I take my girl friend’s convertible to the car lot… now when it gets hot I open up the roof to let the heat out…. and I don’t close it at night and the car stays frost free.
Therefore, my conclusions are:
1) The greenhouse effect only works when the air is trapped inside the car… after all hot air rises.
2) If the sun stayed up all night then it would be too hot all the time.
3) If the sun stayed in bed all the time then it would be too cold all the time.
4) It takes time for everything to warm up in the morning.
5) It takes time for everything to cool down in the evening.
So my guess is that the earth has a very clever mechanism called CLOUDS… they work a bit like a convertible… they form when it gets hot and stops the earth from getting too hot… and they tend to disappear when it gets very cold so the earth has its best chance of being heating up the sun… but as to pinning down the precise science of the heat flows… dream on… everything is variable and subject to time delays.
The shell is best represented by a “venetian” blind, or slat blind – with the slats vertical to the surface & gaps between the slats – as the “greenhouse” is only absorbing a small portion of the radiation – the rest escapes directly to space. The slats are also “opaque” as the absorb all they can – and making the slats longer in the vertical direction (more greenhouse gases) has little additional effect.
Just looked into this post and comments and I am puzzled at the lack of mention at the fact there is no real equilibrium in the real earth. solar in and energy out are highly unlikely to ever be in equilibrium, the atmosphere and oceans, planetary surface, etc are all just giant storage heaters, storing energy at daytime and releasing at night. some days the charge is hotter, some days its less hot (due to albedo etc). but the time period (lag if you like) it takes for the thermal ‘mass’ to equalise around the planet and then emit out to space and this will always define the actual climate temperature as rising or falling. (I am ignoring the different ‘spheres’ upper trop, etc).
Come on this is stupid. The greenhouse effect doesn’t exist for the simple reason that there is no “greenhouse” effect in a greenhouse – it would be like using the theory of the ether to explain radio waves and talking about the “ether effect” and not expecting most people who knew what was being talked about not to roll with laughter on the floor.
And … even putting it in quotes as in the “greenhouse” effect doesn’t explain why CO2 has to result in warming when it has a cooling effect due to the greater emissivity of CO2.
To summarise: the greenhouse effect is Noddy science and even when it is “Noddy” science it still doesn’t follow CO2 causes warming.
All right I went back and read your Steel Greenhouse post to get a clue, is the answer that upward radiation does not equal downward radiation?
well, the model system doesn’t have climate- no atmosphere, water, land, or biomass- all of which constitute climate, or perhaps more correctly, weather. So of course it doesn’t explain anything about climate or why or how the energy transfer through the atmosphere to the ground and back affects climate.
the model system is a good explanation of why the earth is in energy balance and perhaps the limits to the temperatures involved, as opposed to the current AGW hypothesis that CO2 in the atmosphere has a positive feed back that increases the response of temperature.
PS
The other big problem with Fig 4 is the right hand down arrow… although you argue that 240 W/m2 is radiated back towards earth this does not mean that all this energy is received by the earth… there is a problem with distance… remember if you stand close to the fire you get hot… and as you step way from the fire you cool down… so size is important too 🙂
Too many assumptions that are not real world. Kind of like thinking a sports team will always win because on paper they have the better players. Unfortunately, they still have to play a real game.
BTW – is there not a shift in emission spectrum due to higher BB temp? and of course, this would constantly change slightly, resulting in permanent non equilibrium condition?
No thermostatic regulation in the model?
PPS
Simple models simply don’t work for complex situations!
Just look at the accuracy of the AGW computer models if you need confirmation….
A transparent shell would not be at 0K. If it were perfectly transparent (which is physically unreal, but never mind) it would retain whatever temperature it had when you first put it there, because it is neither absorbing nor losing any heat. If it were merely very nearly transparent (which is the physically realisable case) , then in this example it would be at a temperature ~ 255K. The temperature would be somewhat higher or lower than this, depending as the emissivity were higher or lower in the visible or thermal.
This model implicitly assumes uniform insolation, which is not valid for a sphere illuminated from one direction. Steady state requires that the planet does not rotate (relative to the sun), or has negligible heat capacity; the temperature would then range from a factor 4^1/4 higher (ie 361K) at the subsolar point, through ~73K around the terminator, to ~0K on the dark side. There would be no meaningful average or global temperature at all. The greenhouse effect of the shell would be the same factor of 2^1/4 (for the visibly transparent, thermally opaque case). Add diurnal rotation and finite heat capacity and thermal conductivity, and things become much more complicated. There is no steady state, and the temperature curve for a given latitude is messy to compute. The thermal capacity of the shell has to be considered too. The general effect of thermal capacity and rotation is to transfer (some) heat between the day and night sides.
Doesn’t the atmosphere deflect some of the incoming radiation out to space without even penetrating?
The comments that dispute Willis’ excellent post highlight some of the problems with the AGW sceptic arguments. Those who argue that the greenhouse effect does not exist do the sceptics’ side a disservice, by arguing an untenable position. It creates a weakness in the sceptical position, which warmists focus on to try to discredit all sceptic arguments.
In other words, the atmosphere “denies” entry of a lot of what the sun etc tosses our way, but not all, and that changes all the time for various reasons.
Willis – I can’t be sure what model inadequacy you have in mind, but perhaps the answer is that climate involves much more than just temperature. Another thought is that climate (and weather) vary with time and location on the Earth’s surface, but your model seems incapable of representing either of these aspects.
Willis
Thanks for the post
Where is Length of day? Doesn’t this have an affect on outgoing radiation?
Picture Earth with the day on one side, and night on the other. Just like a roast on a spit. mmm
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/369706_795fabc842.jpg?v=0